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Old 11-22-2019, 12:03 PM
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I thought fear leads to anger, anger leads to hatred, and hatred leads to the dark side...
  #252  
Old 11-22-2019, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Max S. View Post
You can, and probably should. Hatred flows from fear, fear flows from ignorance. Address that ignorance, don't merely push it to the corners of society and hope it goes away.

~Max
No, because KKK members belong in jail. They are members of a terrorist group -- there can be no other definition for them, as their entire purpose was to put terror in the hearts of blacks, to remind them that slavery or not, they remain below the whites.

They are no better than ISIS, and just like ISIS, we cannot "share a space" with them.
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Old 11-22-2019, 12:22 PM
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No, because KKK members belong in jail. They are members of a terrorist group -- there can be no other definition for them, as their entire purpose was to put terror in the hearts of blacks, to remind them that slavery or not, they remain below the whites.

They are no better than ISIS, and just like ISIS, we cannot "share a space" with them.
The KKK is a hate group with a history of violence but not a terrorist group. That is mostly because it is entirely domestic, and decentralized. We don't jail people for association with hate groups, even violent ones, unless there is a clear link between the violence and the individual. I bet most of the Klan groups still around today don't have a history of violence, the association is in name and ideology only.

~Max
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Old 11-22-2019, 12:32 PM
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The KKK is a hate group with a history of violence but not a terrorist group. That is mostly because it is entirely domestic, and decentralized. We don't jail people for association with hate groups, even violent ones, unless there is a clear link between the violence and the individual. I bet most of the Klan groups still around today don't have a history of violence, the association is in name and ideology only.

~Max
It is not a terrorist group because the FBI hasn't labeled it as such for political reasons. It has been labeled a terrorist group in some jurisdictions, for example the city of Charleston.

But if you consider the meaning of the word "terrorism" --

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the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.
That's exactly what the Klan DOES.
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Old 11-22-2019, 12:34 PM
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Unless your argument is that the violence was done by the 1st and 2nd Klans, not the third incarnation? Because that is flawed. You think Arabs would be allowed to join the new, fundamentalist muslim, "non violent" incarnation of ISIS or Al Qaeda in the US? What is the difference between that or the Klan?

Last edited by Babale; 11-22-2019 at 12:34 PM.
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Old 11-22-2019, 12:47 PM
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Unless your argument is that the violence was done by the 1st and 2nd Klans, not the third incarnation? Because that is flawed. You think Arabs would be allowed to join the new, fundamentalist muslim, "non violent" incarnation of ISIS or Al Qaeda in the US?
If I ignore the fact that these are international organizations that actively fight against the United States (thus a domestic member would be treasonous), then yeah, I do.

It's like the American Nazi party or the Communist party. Nothing illegal about that, until someone actually pokes an eye out.

~Max

Last edited by Max S.; 11-22-2019 at 12:49 PM. Reason: thus a domestic member
  #257  
Old 11-22-2019, 12:50 PM
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I thought fear leads to anger, anger leads to hatred, and hatred leads to the dark side...
I left out a couple of steps.

~Max
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Old 11-22-2019, 01:02 PM
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If I ignore the fact that these are international organizations that actively fight against the United States (thus a domestic member would be treasonous), then yeah, I do.

It's like the American Nazi party or the Communist party. Nothing illegal about that, until someone actually pokes an eye out.

~Max
Why is domestic terrorism any better than foreign terrorism? The KKK has killed more Americans than ISIS.
  #259  
Old 11-22-2019, 02:57 PM
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Why is domestic terrorism any better than foreign terrorism? The KKK has killed more Americans than ISIS.
Well, there isn't really room for domestic terrorism here. Not on the scale and with the level of organization that you might see in lawless areas like the Middle East. If a domestic terrorist group emerged, law enforcement would be all over them, and then there wouldn't be a domestic terrorist group.

The KKK has been around for a long time. The only reason they are still around at all is because they no longer mass-lynch people or otherwise direct members to commit violent acts. If that was still the case, I would consider it a domestic terror group. But it isn't, so I don't.

I think we're getting a bit off-topic with this, though. We can agree to disagree, or head off to a new thread if you link it to me.

~Max
  #260  
Old 11-22-2019, 03:09 PM
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If a domestic terrorist group emerged, law enforcement would be all over them
Oh, I'm sure they would be. Working forces, as it were. Wearing their badges.
  #261  
Old 11-22-2019, 03:26 PM
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Oh, I'm sure they would be. Working forces, as it were. Wearing their badges.
But are you gonna do what they told ya?
  #262  
Old 11-22-2019, 03:44 PM
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But are you gonna do what they told ya?
Come on!
  #263  
Old 11-23-2019, 12:02 AM
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I don't think I have to choose between defending people's right to offend minorities and defending minorities.
Sometimes you do, though.

If people can't go outside their metaphorical door without being attacked: I don't think it's possible to defend the attackers and the attacked at the same time.

And if the conversation's happening in your own social circle: sometimes you have to pick a side. Because refusing to do so has the effect of siding with the attackers.
  #264  
Old 11-23-2019, 03:44 AM
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Sometimes you do, though.

If people can't go outside their metaphorical door without being attacked: I don't think it's possible to defend the attackers and the attacked at the same time.

And if the conversation's happening in your own social circle: sometimes you have to pick a side. Because refusing to do so has the effect of siding with the attackers.
It's known as the Paradox of Tolerance from Karl Popper's "The Open Societies and Its Enemies"

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Less well known is the paradox of tolerance: Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them[...]

We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant. We should claim that any movement preaching intolerance places itself outside the law, and we should consider incitement to intolerance and persecution as criminal, in the same way as we should consider incitement to murder, or to kidnapping, or to the revival of the slave trade, as criminal.
  #265  
Old 12-10-2019, 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post
Sometimes you do, though.

If people can't go outside their metaphorical door without being attacked: I don't think it's possible to defend the attackers and the attacked at the same time.

And if the conversation's happening in your own social circle: sometimes you have to pick a side. Because refusing to do so has the effect of siding with the attackers.
Sorry, I must have missed this post.

Those situations where I must choose between defending those who would offend minorities and the minorities themselves are the situations where one side acts with malice or insincerity; in other words, where one side abandons reason and refuses to even consider opposing arguments, and preemptively declares them deceptive, and incites the people to answer such arguments against their position with violence. And as the concept of liberty is the solution to the paradox of freedom, the concept of good-faith is the solution to the paradox of tolerance.

~Max
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