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  #51  
Old 06-18-2019, 01:46 AM
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Dibble, I bought that fucking book just for that stupid thread
...after already giving your uninformed opinion on page 1 (and then continuing to defend it for post after post, still not having read the book). My point being - it's laughable you think anyone familiar with your posting would buy that you're one for taking the high road and "passing things by".
  #52  
Old 06-18-2019, 02:29 AM
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I read the first chapter before saying anything. That should be a sufficiently large sample to weigh in on an author’s writing ability. Or do you consider my (much more positive) impression of Andy’s writing chops to have zero validity as well?

ETA: I don’t know what the “high road” has to do with it.

ETA2: I just realized that I said Andy is a better SF writer than a multiple Hugo award winner. That boy is going to get such a swelled head!

Last edited by SlackerInc; 06-18-2019 at 02:34 AM.
  #53  
Old 06-18-2019, 03:54 AM
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I read the first chapter before saying anything.
Which was pointed out to you was not representative of the book as a whole. Did that stop you pontificating? Like fuck it did!

And would you lecture on the failings of a movie you only watched the first five minutes of?
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That should be a sufficiently large sample to weigh in on an author’s writing ability.
We can clearly see it wasn't.
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Or do you consider my (much more positive) impression of Andy’s writing chops to have zero validity as well?
I assume you actually read the whole of his book before saying anything.
  #54  
Old 06-18-2019, 04:00 AM
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Did that stop you pontificating? Like fuck it did!

And would you lecture on the failings of a movie you only watched the first five minutes of?
"Man, The Fellowship Of The Rings is phenomenally dull. The first scene is nothing but dull and confusing worldbuilding that makes basically no sense. I turned it off, what dreay dross."
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  #55  
Old 06-18-2019, 08:29 AM
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(I've never heard of Quillette, and have clicked no links.) The strident debates about "race" remind us that, even for intellectuals science is often subservient to political agenda. Is there a word ("ethnic group" ?) that can allow discussion to proceed without having scientific discussion pre-empted?

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Correct. "Pittsburgh" is a more meaningful biological category, in terms of genetic variation, than "black people" (i.e. people in Pittsburgh, or any randomly chosen city, have more genetic similarity, on average, than random "black people" do, on average).
Oh? Exhume some skeletons from Pittsburgh, France, Senegal and Zambia. Is it really your assertion that forensic anthropologists would find it easier to distinguish the Pittsburghites than the Africans?

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It wasn't a single group that left Africa -- Reich even says "The most recent migration “explains more than 90% of the ancestry of living people.”" in that link. ... None of those populations, with literally billions of people, can possibly be described as descending from a single small group alone.
I think the evidence suggests that a particular epoch of exo-African migration is responsible for most of the ex-African populations today. To dismiss "more than 90%" because it is less than 100% is not a path to understanding prehistoric migrations. Unless understanding prehistoric migrations is opposed to your agenda.

I've linked to one of the better clustering diagrams for human genetic variation before, but this version is not behind a registration-wall. It comes from a paper about African genes, so outliers in Australia and New Guinea are omitted, but the nearly extinct Hadzabe are included. According to the chart, the biggest genetic difference is between South American natives and the Hadzabe.
  #56  
Old 06-18-2019, 08:37 AM
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(I've never heard of Quillette, and have clicked no links.) The strident debates about "race" remind us that, even for intellectuals science is often subservient to political agenda. Is there a word ("ethnic group" ?) that can allow discussion to proceed without having scientific discussion pre-empted?
The "science" of white supremacists (and their allies) is subservient to their political agenda, since they've never cared about actual science, and still don't. Actual science demolishes most of the assertions of the white supremacists. This has been demonstrated again and again on this very board.

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Oh? Exhume some skeletons from Pittsburgh, France, Senegal and Zambia. Is it really your assertion that forensic anthropologists would find it easier to distinguish the Pittsburghites than the Africans?
I would imagine that skilled forensic scientists would be able to use trace elements and similar phenomena to easily determine the origin (i.e. where the person lived their lives) of the skeletons. This, obviously, says absolutely nothing about genetics. My point was that sub-Saharan Africa has far, far more genetic diversity than the rest of humanity, and any given population outside of sub-Saharan Africa (such as the popoulation of Pittsburgh), or a sub-population inside of SSA, necessarily has less genetic diversity than the entirety of SSA. Which should be pretty obvious, when one thinks about it, but it's an easy way to dismantle some of the dumbest claims of the white supremacists/"race realists"/etc.

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I think the evidence suggests that a particular epoch of exo-African migration is responsible for most of the ex-African populations today. To dismiss "more than 90%" because it is less than 100% is not a path to understanding prehistoric migrations. Unless understanding prehistoric migrations is opposed to your agenda.
I'll dismiss it when it's used to support claims of white supremacism, since the facts very clearly do not support these claims. There have been some major migrations, and many other migrations that were also significant, but from and into Africa. Those with an agenda like to ignore some of these facts.

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I've linked to one of the better clustering diagrams for human genetic variation before, but this version is not behind a registration-wall. It comes from a paper about African genes, so outliers in Australia and New Guinea are omitted, but the nearly extinct Hadzabe are included. According to the chart, the biggest genetic difference is between South American natives and the Hadzabe.
Interesting, and if true, this does not dispute anything I've said.
  #57  
Old 06-18-2019, 08:38 AM
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Oh? Exhume some skeletons from Pittsburgh, France, Senegal and Zambia. Is it really your assertion that forensic anthropologists would find it easier to distinguish the Pittsburghites than the Africans?
Clearly not.

If you are familiar with these posters' histories, iiandyiii's argument is that it's easier (slightly easier, perhaps?) to find distinguishing genetic characteristics from say 100 skeletons taken from across the whole of the continent of Africa than 100 skeletons taken from across the whole of Pittsburgh.

Our resident idiot SlackerInc, on the other hand, has long been on the "everybody on the entire African subcontinent can be grouped together racially and genetically" bandwagon.

So, forget Zambia. We've got a poster (actually, several) that would argue that Zulus, Bantus, and Yoruba are all more genetically similar to each other (based almost exclusive on skin tone) than random people plucked from Pittsburgh.

Last edited by Great Antibob; 06-18-2019 at 08:38 AM.
  #58  
Old 06-18-2019, 08:59 AM
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https://twitter.com/casersatz/status...818106880?s=19

Andy Ngo, editor at Quillette, decides, in honor of pride month, to list LGBT hate crime hoaxes.

Now, if this sounds familiar to you, you may be familiar with the numerous articles on Breitbart that do the same thing - highlight a minuscule number of hate crime hoaxes (compared to the number of actual hate crimes), leave out any context that might make the number meaningful, and pretend it means... Well, anything at all. The goal is to get people to reject the existence of hate crimes; to have a gut reaction of "probably another fake wannabe victim". He damn near says as much:

"They can’t stand exposure of hate crime hoaxes because it makes it harder to politically exploit violence against LGBT people. The 26 killed trans people in 2018 were not all killed for being trans. This is important. I will go through each one-by-one."
https://twitter.com/MrAndyNgo/status...968796160?s=19

The rest of his feed is full of homophobic and transphobic rhetoric, presumably also "for pride". Any talk of actual hate crimes, or acknowledgement of the risk posed by bigotry and bigoted rhetoric? Ha ha, as if - this is Breitbart for people who think they're smart, not an actual news source.
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  #59  
Old 06-18-2019, 10:23 AM
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SlackerInc, on the other hand, has long been on the "everybody on the entire African subcontinent can be grouped together racially and genetically" bandwagon.
So, forget Zambia. We've got a poster (actually, several) that would argue that Zulus, Bantus, and Yoruba are all more genetically similar to each other (based almost exclusive on skin tone) than random people plucked from Pittsburgh.
WTF: are you lying, or just stupid? I said the exact opposite JUST UPTHREAD (Andy even acknowledged it!), and it's far from the first time. Jesus.


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Which was pointed out to you was not representative of the book as a whole.

If the question is how the overall story fits together, whether things were tied together well at the end, etc., that's fair. But to spot bad or shaky writing doesn't require reading a whole book. It doesn't even require reading a whole chapter, for that matter. Are you aware of how long most authors toil over their first paragraph and especially their first sentence?


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And would you lecture on the failings of a movie you only watched the first five minutes of?

Funny you should frame it that way. I have ranked and rated nearly 1500 films, but there are many others I started and bailed out of after, yup, five minutes. (I always give any movie that length of time before pulling the rip cord.) Like authors, filmmakers work hard to make their opening shot and scene really special. If it comes across as so weak that I can summon no interest in continuing past the five minute mark, that's a very bad sign, regardless of what unseen cinematic wonderment lies beyond that point (or, almost certainly, does not lie there).


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I assume you actually read the whole of his book before saying anything.

Do you really, or was this some kind of dry joke? (No, I have thus far only read the free sample of Andy's book, just as I initially did with NKJ.)
  #60  
Old 06-18-2019, 01:33 PM
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GIGO, I hope you have that last sentence stored somewhere for copy and paste purposes, because you have posted it (with minor variations) seemingly scores of times.
Well thank you for acknowledging* at least that you have not replied to a very pertinent example (with experts) of what you consider the best way to check for information, a podcast. It was just a demonstration of how how you cherrypick the information you get and ignore even a report from experts in podcast form.









* Well, whining that is.
  #61  
Old 06-18-2019, 02:42 PM
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I don't know how much more clearly to make this. This is scientific racism. It is bunkum. None of it holds up to scientific scrutiny. It is merely a viewpoint that starts with racism and then looks for proof. Science works the other way: look at evidence, then make arguments.

I know, it sucks. You're reading something, think it makes sense, then you find out it's all bullshit. But you've put in so much effort into believing it that it takes a lot of effort to change. It often seems easier to just find a band-aid and fix it. But it just doesn't work.

Racism isn't some secretly true thing that the scientific authorities are trying to hide from you. It's just false. White people are not special. We just have a mutation that allowed us to adapt to climates with less sun exposure. We also lost our epicanthic folds, likely for similar reasons: wider eyes get in more light. It's just due to where we live, and nothing more.

While I normally don't recommend it as an oversimplification of reality, go read Guns, Germs and Steel. Location alone explains so much of any actual differences in ethnicities or races. Not some sort of genetic superiority.
  #62  
Old 06-18-2019, 08:09 PM
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I have read GGT and that is the book that proceeds from its conclusions.
  #63  
Old 06-18-2019, 09:14 PM
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...and irony meters across the world burst into flame.
  #64  
Old 06-18-2019, 09:59 PM
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Oops, GGS
  #65  
Old 06-19-2019, 02:40 AM
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to spot bad or shaky writing doesn't require reading a whole book. It doesn't even require reading a whole chapter, for that matter.
For some Dan Brown shit, sure. For something more complex, like Jemisin? Well, we can see how well that review strategy works out by all that egg on your face...
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Funny you should frame it that way. I have ranked and rated nearly 1500 films
You ... you don't really hear yourself as you type, do you?

You actually think saying this kind of thing makes you seem...what? Cultured? Experienced? Not weird and sad?
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Do you really
I had hopes...
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, or was this some kind of dry joke? (No, I have thus far only read the free sample of Andy's book, just as I initially did with NKJ.)
...but they were short-lived.

You know what I think one of your (many) problems is? This is going by your preference for podcasts, and reaching sweeping conclusions on only the first chapters of things : you want to appear like some sort of erudite, well-read intellectual, but you're fundamentally too damn lazy to do the actual work that really takes. Typical, really.
  #66  
Old 06-19-2019, 03:44 AM
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If being a cinephile makes one “weird and sad”, there are an awful lot of us—and we are having a grand old time while you pity us.

Of course, the reality is that you are simply applying a blatantly hypocritical double standard. If some other cinephile who had the “correct” politics mentioned rating/ranking that many films (hell, ten times as many!), somehow they would not be judged “weird and sad”. Funny how that works.

ETA: Hilarious BTW that you think a self-described slacker will feel insulted by being called lazy! I run into this surprisingly often. Do people think my screen name was chosen by my enemies, or by a sorting hat or something?

Last edited by SlackerInc; 06-19-2019 at 03:49 AM.
  #67  
Old 06-19-2019, 04:07 AM
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If being a cinephile makes one “weird and sad”,
...because that's what I said.

No, I did not - I like films a lot, myself. There's nothing weird or sad about liking films.

Except using the word cinephile to describe yourself - that's just only a hair less fucking pretentious than cineaste. See what I mean about you being a pretend intellectual?

"Liking films a lot" was not the weird and sad thing I was highlighting in your post.

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If some other cinephile who had the “correct” politics mentioned rating/ranking that many films (hell, ten times as many!), somehow they would not be judged “weird and sad”.
No, they totally would be. If anyone (who didn't review films at least semi-professionally) posted the words you did, I would say it came across as weird and sad. Not very weird or sad, we're not talking cataloguing your toenail clippings here. But just a little bit anorak.
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Hilarious BTW that you think a self-described slacker will feel insulted by being called lazy
I wasn't trying to insult you. You know I can do a lot better than "lazy" if I want to insult you. I was trying to tell you why your pretence at any intellectual standing is laughable.

Last edited by MrDibble; 06-19-2019 at 04:09 AM.
  #68  
Old 12-05-2019, 02:32 PM
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Interesting article on Quillette: https://www.thenation.com/article/qu...fascist-creep/
  #69  
Old 12-05-2019, 03:21 PM
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Did you have to, andy? The little racist creep had been mercifully keeping his head low for a while now, and now you've likely gone and summoned him...
  #70  
Old 12-05-2019, 05:11 PM
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Did you have to, andy? The little racist creep had been mercifully keeping his head low for a while now, and now you've likely gone and summoned him...
Oops... we'll see!
  #71  
Old 12-06-2019, 11:35 AM
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Correct. "Pittsburgh" is a more meaningful biological category, in terms of genetic variation, than "black people" (i.e. people in Pittsburgh, or any randomly chosen city, have more genetic similarity, on average, than random "black people" do, on average).
Cite?

IIRC Pittsburgh has a lot of blacks as well as people of other races.

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I'm less than convinced this is actually a supposition in Saini's book -- let's see a cite that the book says this.
Presumably skin color is a superficial trait?
  #72  
Old 12-06-2019, 12:01 PM
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Cite?

IIRC Pittsburgh has a lot of blacks as well as people of other races.
You need a cite that "black people", a category which contains well over a billion people, including the vast majority of the most genetically variable region on Earth (sub-Saharan Africa), as well as ancestry from every part of the planet (all the mixed-background people that society shoehorns into the "black people" category), has more genetic variation than a single medium-sized city?

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 12-06-2019 at 12:03 PM.
  #73  
Old 12-06-2019, 12:37 PM
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Andy, your virtue signaling is duly noted. It’s what you are good at. (Actually, you do also seem to be good at writing science fiction, which—at least in the sample I read—surprised me by not reeking of performative wokeness.)
TO me virtue signaling always had an element of disingenuity. Acting virtuous when in fact you are just trying to humblebrag about how woke you are. It was the woke version of holier than thou attitudes.

I don't think blacks can really "virtue signal" about anti-black racism, no one thinks better of them for it nor does it identify them as an ally or anything like that.

Most virtue signalers are privileged liberals who get offended on behalf of all the oppressed people they don't actually know in real life.
  #74  
Old 12-06-2019, 12:40 PM
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Fuck you, you racist piece of shit. Disagreeing with you, or with Sam Harris, is not "virtue signaling".

EDIT: Thank you for the kind words about my sci-fi writing.
Sci-fi writing?
  #75  
Old 12-06-2019, 12:44 PM
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Sci-fi writing?
Click my signature! If you're a sci-fi fan, I'd be happy to send you a free copy of the e-book (an offer I extend to any Doper who likes to read sci-fi novels, regardless of past disagreements).
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  #76  
Old 12-06-2019, 12:53 PM
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You need a cite that "black people", a category which contains well over a billion people, including the vast majority of the most genetically variable region on Earth (sub-Saharan Africa), as well as ancestry from every part of the planet (all the mixed-background people that society shoehorns into the "black people" category), has more genetic variation than a single medium-sized city?
I thought you were saying that 300,000 randomly chosen blacks had more genetic variability than the 300,000 Pittsburgh residents. Which doesn't really seem self evident.
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Old 12-06-2019, 12:57 PM
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I thought you were saying that 300,000 randomly chosen blacks had more genetic variability than the 300,000 Pittsburgh residents. Which doesn't really seem self evident.
I'm making the point that "black people" is no more valid (and even significantly less valid) a biological indicator, in terms of genetic ancestry, than "Pittsburghese" (or sub in another random city). Take sets of two random "black" people on Earth, and sets of two random Pittsburghese folks, and chances are the Pittsburghese are going to have more in common, in terms of genetic ancestry, than the sets of black folks. Probably by a helluva lot.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 12-06-2019 at 01:01 PM.
  #78  
Old 12-06-2019, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
TO me virtue signaling always had an element of disingenuity. Acting virtuous when in fact you are just trying to humblebrag about how woke you are. It was the woke version of holier than thou attitudes.

I don't think blacks can really "virtue signal" about anti-black racism, no one thinks better of them for it nor does it identify them as an ally or anything like that.

Most virtue signalers are privileged liberals who get offended on behalf of all the oppressed people they don't actually know in real life.
Well, as minority living in the full of bigots red state of Arizona, I will have to say that you are just spewing bullshit.
  #79  
Old 12-06-2019, 02:13 PM
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Click my signature! If you're a sci-fi fan, I'd be happy to send you a free copy of the e-book (an offer I extend to any Doper who likes to read sci-fi novels, regardless of past disagreements).
Dammit man, I paid for that!

  #80  
Old 12-06-2019, 02:50 PM
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TO me virtue signaling always had an element of disingenuity. Acting virtuous when in fact you are just trying to humblebrag about how woke you are. It was the woke version of holier than thou attitudes.

I don't think blacks can really "virtue signal" about anti-black racism, no one thinks better of them for it nor does it identify them as an ally or anything like that.

Most virtue signalers are privileged liberals who get offended on behalf of all the oppressed people they don't actually know in real life.
Your projection is duly noted, fucko.
  #81  
Old 12-09-2019, 01:49 PM
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Dammit man, I paid for that!

I paid too but didn’t mind, it wasn’t too expensive and it was worth paying for. Really good story.
  #82  
Old 12-09-2019, 01:51 PM
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I paid too but didn’t mind, it wasn’t too expensive and it was worth paying for. Really good story.
Thanks again! Kind words about my writing never get old!
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Old 12-09-2019, 02:34 PM
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I paid too but didn’t mind, it wasn’t too expensive and it was worth paying for. Really good story.
I didn't mind either. I felt bad only buying the kindle version. And yes, it was a good story.
  #84  
Old 12-09-2019, 03:12 PM
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I didn't mind either. I felt bad only buying the kindle version. And yes, it was a good story.
If you want to feel better, buy a few kindle versions as gifts for your friends and family.
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Old 12-09-2019, 03:37 PM
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If you want to feel better, buy a few kindle versions as gifts for your friends and family.
My family still uses rotary phones and answering machines
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Old 12-10-2019, 01:10 AM
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Most virtue signalers are privileged liberals who get offended on behalf of all the oppressed people they don't actually know in real life.
Scratching my head over this apparent assumption that getting offended on behalf of oppressed people is somehow automatically insincere or illegitimate unless the victims of the oppression happen to be personal acquaintances in real life.

Somebody better warn all those privileged conservatives who get offended on behalf of, say, Christians who are complete strangers to them in real life and who get attacked or discriminated against by, say, extremist Muslims or Hindus in non-Christian-majority countries that they're merely "virtue signaling".
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Old 12-10-2019, 04:22 AM
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If you have to pull out "virtue signaling," it's just an admission you've lost. Your only remaining defense is "Well, sure, that all sounds right, but they don't really mean what they say!"

Even if that were true, it would be irrelevant. Whether something is correct has nothing to do with the sincerity of the person arguing it. A Creationist could argue for evolution using real evidence, and it wouldn't matter that he himself doesn't believe any of it. The evidence is what matters.

Most of these irrational tactics used by the right came up because you were losing arguments so badly that you had to come up with something. It's unfortunate that so many people find it convincing.

And, no, pointing out that what you call virtue signaling actually does occur doesn't mean anything. You're literally just describing hypocrisy, and that's existed since time immemorial. The existence of hypocrites does not prove something wrong.

Last edited by BigT; 12-10-2019 at 04:22 AM.
  #88  
Old 12-10-2019, 06:10 PM
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Click my signature! If you're a sci-fi fan, I'd be happy to send you a free copy of the e-book (an offer I extend to any Doper who likes to read sci-fi novels, regardless of past disagreements).
I'm a sci fi fan. Everything from Isaac Asimov to Fred Saberhagen.
  #89  
Old 12-10-2019, 06:12 PM
Damuri Ajashi is offline
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Originally Posted by GIGObuster View Post
Well, as minority living in the full of bigots red state of Arizona, I will have to say that you are just spewing bullshit.
In what way is my opinion bullshit?

Do you simply refuse to believe that virtue signalling is a thing?

Or do you have a different definition of virtue signalling?
  #90  
Old 12-10-2019, 06:15 PM
Damuri Ajashi is offline
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Originally Posted by Kobal2 View Post
Your projection is duly noted, fucko.
That is a compelling argument.

I don't know if any of your other arguments are any better.
  #91  
Old 12-10-2019, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Kimstu View Post
Scratching my head over this apparent assumption that getting offended on behalf of oppressed people is somehow automatically insincere or illegitimate unless the victims of the oppression happen to be personal acquaintances in real life.
Not all white people are virtue signallers but most virtue signallers are white (or otherwise privileged).

Quote:
Somebody better warn all those privileged conservatives who get offended on behalf of, say, Christians who are complete strangers to them in real life and who get attacked or discriminated against by, say, extremist Muslims or Hindus in non-Christian-majority countries that they're merely "virtue signaling".
There are plenty of conservative virtue signallers.
  #92  
Old 12-10-2019, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
If you want to feel better, buy a few kindle versions as gifts for your friends and family.
Its $2. It's probably just easier for me to buy it on Amazon.
  #93  
Old 12-10-2019, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
In what way is my opinion bullshit?

Do you simply refuse to believe that virtue signalling is a thing?

Or do you have a different definition of virtue signalling?
It is bullshit for believing that others are not capable of being sincere; IOW, a projection of your shortcomings, it is also bullshit once one learns about where the term came from:

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Social_justice_warrior
Quote:
"Virtue signalling"

Since reactionaries are starting to realize people aren't taking them seriously when they say SJW, the synonym "virtue signaller" - one who "virtue signals" - is now taking prominence. Virtue signalling is an appeal to motive that can refer to any SJW belief or claim. The term suggests that the SJW is just trying to look morally better ("signal their virtue") to other people. The term thus suggests that they do not really believe what they are saying: they're just regurgitating trendy political slogans for "ally points."

It was popularized in a 2015 column by James Bartholomew (a non-frothing conservative) in The Spectator[39] and originally referred to the type of people that buy organic food, recycle absolutely everything, and like lots of activist messages on Facebook so they can appear to be good people or feel like they're making a bigger difference than they really are.

However, it got seized upon by reactionaries almost immediately and broadened to just about every instance of somebody publicly expressing a desire for a better world. Just like the term SJW itself and whiteknighting, the user assumes being a prejudiced, oppressive asshole is the default and knows saying as much won't get them any traction, so they throw terms around that assume bad faith of "the other side" in order to poison the well.

Last edited by GIGObuster; 12-10-2019 at 07:08 PM.
  #94  
Old 12-10-2019, 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
Its $2. It's probably just easier for me to buy it on Amazon.
If you buy it, thank you very much, and I hope you enjoy reading it. And if you do read it, I hope you'll let me know if you liked it.
__________________
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  #95  
Old 12-11-2019, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
TO me virtue signaling always had an element of disingenuity. Acting virtuous when in fact you are just trying to humblebrag about how woke you are. It was the woke version of holier than thou attitudes.

I don't think blacks can really "virtue signal" about anti-black racism, no one thinks better of them for it nor does it identify them as an ally or anything like that.

Most virtue signalers are privileged liberals who get offended on behalf of all the oppressed people they don't actually know in real life.
And you base this assessment on what evidence? Poor people aren't liberal? Don't understand that they share common suffering from the same group?

How much of a slime are you that you see decency as something people must be faking?
__________________
They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.
  #96  
Old 12-11-2019, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by margin View Post
How much of a slime are you that you see decency as something people must be faking?
It's projection.
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