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Old 09-17-2019, 04:54 PM
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Savage beating


https://breaking911.com/shock-video-...wn-minneapolis

What the hell is wrong with people to do this to another person? Given the racial makeup of this act, why are they not being charge with a hate crime? Imho I hope none of these guys are out for a couple decades.
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Old 09-17-2019, 05:01 PM
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Given the racial makeup of this act, why are they not being charge with a hate crime?
Is there evidence that they specifically targeted the victim for being white? Simply being a different race from one's victim doesn't automatically make it a hate crime. Based on the information in the article it looks like the motive for the attack was robbery, not race.
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Old 09-17-2019, 05:50 PM
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Is there evidence that they specifically targeted the victim for being white? Simply being a different race from one's victim doesn't automatically make it a hate crime. Based on the information in the article it looks like the motive for the attack was robbery, not race.
Based on the information in the article a mob of 18 people continued to beat someone until they were unconscious.

This was theater violence. A hate crime is based on hate, not race.

Last edited by Magiver; 09-17-2019 at 05:52 PM.
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Old 09-17-2019, 06:16 PM
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Fucking thugs should be charged with attempted murder.
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Old 09-17-2019, 06:24 PM
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Robbery seems a little light but attempted murder a little harsh. Something in assault in addition to the robbery charges?
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Old 09-17-2019, 06:29 PM
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A hate crime is based on hate, not race.
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by that, but no? If I hate you because you slept with my wife, and assault you for that reason, that's not a "hate crime."
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Old 09-17-2019, 06:41 PM
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Given the racial makeup of this act, why are they not being charge with a hate crime?
Do you know for certain that they won't be? Maybe the authorities just want to delve into the investigation, perhaps gather additional evidence as to motive before they go adding on additional specifications?
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Old 09-17-2019, 07:45 PM
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I'm not entirely sure what you mean by that, but no? If I hate you because you slept with my wife, and assault you for that reason, that's not a "hate crime."
Hate crimes are based on hatred. It's why they're referred to as hate crimes.

This went way beyond robbery. this was a viscous attack by a mob for the sake of it. It's pure hatred for the sake of it.
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Old 09-17-2019, 08:05 PM
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Hate crimes are based on hatred. It's why they're referred to as hate crimes.
So, you believe that in the scenario I described in my previous post, I would be charged with a hate crime?
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Old 09-17-2019, 08:11 PM
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Hate crimes are based on hatred. It's why they're referred to as hate crimes.

This went way beyond robbery. this was a viscous attack by a mob for the sake of it. It's pure hatred for the sake of it.
They attacked the white guys with a thick fluid?
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Old 09-17-2019, 08:51 PM
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They attacked the white guys with a thick fluid?
nice shoes
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Old 09-17-2019, 08:56 PM
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So, you believe that in the scenario I described in my previous post, I would be charged with a hate crime?
No, I believe your scenario was a strawman or you don't understand hate crime laws.
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Old 09-17-2019, 09:02 PM
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Here's the FBI on the topic of hate crimes:
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A hate crime is a traditional offense like murder, arson, or vandalism with an added element of bias. For the purposes of collecting statistics, the FBI has defined a hate crime as a “criminal offense against a person or property motivated in whole or in part by an offender’s bias against a race, religion, disability, sexual orientation, ethnicity, gender, or gender identity.” Hate itself is not a crime—and the FBI is mindful of protecting freedom of speech and other civil liberties.
https://www.fbi.gov/investigate/civi...ts/hate-crimes

So I suppose if federal law enforcement has reason to believe the attackers were so motivated, they'll charge them with a hate crime.

Is that really the topic of this thread, or is the topic some version of "black people can be racists too"? Just so I know before spending any more time here.

Last edited by Defensive Indifference; 09-17-2019 at 09:04 PM.
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Old 09-17-2019, 09:10 PM
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The potted plant to the head and running over with the bicycle could be attempted murder. Was he wearing a MAGA hat?
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Old 09-17-2019, 09:17 PM
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Here's the FBI on the topic of hate crimes:

https://www.fbi.gov/investigate/civi...ts/hate-crimes

So I suppose if federal law enforcement has reason to believe the attackers were so motivated, they'll charge them with a hate crime.

Is that really the topic of this thread, or is the topic some version of "black people can be racists too"? Just so I know before spending any more time here.
This is about a hate crime. 18 guys on one guy isn't just a robbery.
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Old 09-17-2019, 09:20 PM
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This is about a hate crime. 18 guys on one guy isn't just a robbery.
Based on the information presented so far, I'm not persuaded that this incident meets the FBI's conditions for investigation as a hate crime. But I'm more than happy to change my mind. Is there something I'm not seeing in the linked article, or us there other information I should consider?
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Old 09-17-2019, 09:26 PM
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Based on the information presented so far, I'm not persuaded that this incident meets the FBI's conditions for investigation as a hate crime. But I'm more than happy to change my mind. Is there something I'm not seeing in the linked article, or us there other information I should consider?
Yes, a mob of 18 beating the crap out of one person in a prolonged attack suggests robbery was not the motive but a byproduct of the attack.
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Old 09-17-2019, 09:53 PM
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Yes, a mob of 18 beating the crap out of one person in a prolonged attack suggests robbery was not the motive but a byproduct of the attack.
The article states both attacks started out as attempted robberies. This doesn't square with your assertion that the robberies were byproducts of attacks motivated by bias. In the first video, you see the victim sitting there for a moment undisturbed. Then the incident begins when one of the attackers attempts to grab something from the victim. When the victim fights back, the mob gets involved. This suggests to me that robbery was the motive, then the attackers turned into a mob, not that they attacked the victim based on racial bias.

Both these incidents are horrible and I hope the attackers are punished fully. The attackers are violent criminals. But nothing I've seen yet places these attacks clearly within the definition of hate crime used by the FBI.

Last edited by Defensive Indifference; 09-17-2019 at 09:53 PM.
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Old 09-17-2019, 10:02 PM
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The article states both attacks started out as attempted robberies. This doesn't square with your assertion that the robberies were byproducts of attacks motivated by bias. In the first video, you see the victim sitting there for a moment undisturbed. Then the incident begins when one of the attackers attempts to grab something from the victim. When the victim fights back, the mob gets involved. This suggests to me that robbery was the motive, then the attackers turned into a mob, not that they attacked the victim based on racial bias.

Both these incidents are horrible and I hope the attackers are punished fully. The attackers are violent criminals. But nothing I've seen yet places these attacks clearly within the definition of hate crime used by the FBI.
I don't see your reasoning here at all. If the purpose was robbery then a mob of 18 people would have accomplished the task in about 5 seconds. This was violence for the sake of violence.
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Old 09-17-2019, 10:14 PM
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I don't see your reasoning here at all. If the purpose was robbery then a mob of 18 people would have accomplished the task in about 5 seconds. This was violence for the sake of violence.
But was it motivated by bias that satisfies the definition of a hate crime? You seem to be sure it was. I don't see any information that leads me necessarily to that conclusion. I'm asking you what it is about this incident that leads you to the conclusion that this is a hate crime. Violence, even horrible violence committed by a mob, might be motivated by lots of things. Why are you convinced that this incident is a hate crime as defined legally?
  #21  
Old 09-17-2019, 10:33 PM
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Robbery seems a little light but attempted murder a little harsh. Something in assault in addition to the robbery charges?
Is robbery a lighter charge than assault? I'm not sure. From the linked article:

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Only one person, Adrian Cooper, 25, of Brooklyn Center was charged in both of the crimes. All of the adults and juveniles were charged with a sole count or combination of attempted first-degree robbery, first-degree robbery, aiding and abetting first-degree robbery and third-degree riot. All but the riot charges are felonies.
As an aside, that's quite a collection of charges to argue in court, and a lot of chances to hand out lengthy jail sentences. Maybe the prosecutors feel that having to argue hate crime in addition to all of the above, in multiple proceedings, adds unnecessary complication. In any event, if one has a serious beef with this, maybe they should make their opinion known to the Minneapolis DA's office.

Last edited by El_Kabong; 09-17-2019 at 10:36 PM.
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Old 09-17-2019, 10:46 PM
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But was it motivated by bias that satisfies the definition of a hate crime? You seem to be sure it was. I don't see any information that leads me necessarily to that conclusion. I'm asking you what it is about this incident that leads you to the conclusion that this is a hate crime. Violence, even horrible violence committed by a mob, might be motivated by lots of things. Why are you convinced that this incident is a hate crime as defined legally?
I would say a senseless beating without a motive is likely driven by hate and would be investigated as such.

That it might be motivated by "lots of things" doesn't negate the investigative process.

Last edited by Magiver; 09-17-2019 at 10:47 PM.
  #23  
Old 09-17-2019, 11:14 PM
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I would say a senseless beating without a motive is likely driven by hate and would be investigated as such.

That it might be motivated by "lots of things" doesn't negate the investigative process.
We have no idea from the limited info available as to whether the investigation included an assessment as to whether a hate crime was committed, just what charges were eventually brought.

Robbery (and rioting) are charges that have a reasonable chance of successful prosecution in these cases. They are acts which can be observed via video evidence, buttressed by what the original linked article refers to as "partial confessions" by several of the suspects. To successfully argue a hate crime would require proving a motive, something that the quoted poster agrees cannot be readily determined by viewing the videos in question and perhaps was never confessed by any of the suspects. It seems entirely reasonable to think that the prosecutors did not feel they had sufficient evidence of a hatred motivation to make such a charge worth the effort.

Lastly consider this:

Quote:
In Minnesota, there is no one statute that defines a specific hate crime, but rather several statutes that enhance penalties for certain crimes that are motivated by bias. Those crimes include assault, defamation, harassment, stalking and criminal damage to property. In Minnesota, the protected classes include: race, color, religion, sex, sexual orientation, disability, age or national origin – actual or perceived.
Note that robbery does not seem to be included in the above list. Assault is, but for whatever reason assault does not appear to have been charged in any of the pending cases.

Last edited by El_Kabong; 09-17-2019 at 11:16 PM.
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Old 09-18-2019, 01:31 AM
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...and running over with the bicycle could be attempted murder.
Or comic relief.
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Old 09-18-2019, 04:37 AM
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If it were you maybe.
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Old 09-18-2019, 07:22 AM
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This was violence for the sake of violence.
That doesn't make it a hate crime.

Beating someone up because it's fun, because you want to beat on someone, because they resisted a robbery, because they talked to your sister, none of those are hate crimes even if you were part of a mob who beat a person to near death.

What makes it a hate crime is very straightforward, did you beat the person up because of your bias against their race, religion, sexuality, etc.?

Certainly it's possible that this mob went out looking for a white person to beat up, but hate crime charges shouldn't get anywhere unless there's evidence they went out looking for a white person to beat up and rob, or that they beat up this particular white person because they hate white people.
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Old 09-18-2019, 08:46 AM
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I would say a senseless beating without a motive is likely driven by hate and would be investigated as such.

That it might be motivated by "lots of things" doesn't negate the investigative process.
I'm in favor of an investigation. Has an investigation of hate crime charges been initiated? The brief article doesn't say.

Some in this thread have decided these attacks were hate crimes based on the linked article, with no further evidence presented. If investigators find reason to believe these were hate crimes, I will accept their findings. I'm not going to jump to the conclusion that they were based on the thin reporting in the linked outrage bait, though.

Still, we've gone from "this is a hate crime!!" to "there should be an investigation", so I guess that's progress.
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Old 09-18-2019, 08:49 AM
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https://breaking911.com/shock-video-...wn-minneapolis

What the hell is wrong with people to do this to another person? Given the racial makeup of this act, why are they not being charge with a hate crime? Imho I hope none of these guys are out for a couple decades.
young males are the most dangerous and destructive things in the world.
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Old 09-18-2019, 09:22 AM
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Was he wearing a MAGA hat?
Never miss an opportunity to play the victim. Pathetic.
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Old 09-18-2019, 09:51 AM
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Is robbery a lighter charge than assault? I'm not sure. From the linked article:

As an aside, that's quite a collection of charges to argue in court, and a lot of chances to hand out lengthy jail sentences. Maybe the prosecutors feel that having to argue hate crime in addition to all of the above, in multiple proceedings, adds unnecessary complication. In any event, if one has a serious beef with this, maybe they should make their opinion known to the Minneapolis DA's office.
Looks like first degree robbery in Minnesota is punishable by up to 20 years in prison. Sounds about right.
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Old 09-18-2019, 09:55 AM
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Eighteen white guys beat up on a single black guy while they take the black guy's stuff. Hate crime?
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Old 09-18-2019, 10:29 AM
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Despite all the gabbing and hypotheticals about whether this or that thing is a hate crime, it's worth noting that hate crimes are very hard to prosecute because you have to establish the criminal's motivation, which is really something only the criminal knows. Many crimes that appear on the surface to be potential hate crimes are prosecuted as workaday crimes for which criminals get sent to the same prisons.
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Old 09-18-2019, 11:45 AM
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I was a bit triggered by this video, because it was so eerily similar to an assault my friend and I endured in Denver in the 1990s. It started as a similarly sized group of teenage toughs materializing around us and “asking” for money before crossing over to violence. None of them were as big as my friend and I, but with sheer numbers they just swarmed us. It was the same kind of thing, where once we were down on the ground they amused themselves with taking running jumps to stomp on our heads and stuff like that. No one had a bicycle or potted plant though.

Although it appeared that everyone in the gang of teenagers was nonwhite (at least in the common vernacular: they were mostly Hispanic, so I guess technically they were “non-non-Hispanic-white”?), that was also true of our saviors. I am not at all confident that we would have survived or at least stayed out of intensive care, had it not been for an elderly black lady who was in a car with her friend across the shopping center parking lot. Maybe they were the last stragglers after the stores closed or something, because there was no one else around. She came driving up, very bravely, and caused the youths to scatter. She got out and told us how she had seen what was happening from a distance and told her friend “They aren’t playing!” I will always be grateful to her. I used to say I would always be grateful to “them”, but the more I think about it, the more I suspect that the driver may have been overcoming the (admittedly understandable) resistance of her passenger to getting involved.

Getting back to this similar crime in my state of Minnesota, I hope there are serious consequences beyond just a stint in juvie. But I don’t believe they should be charged with hate crimes, because I don’t believe anyone should be charged with what I call “thoughtcrime”. There should be serious penalties for assault and battery, regardless of the motivation.
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Old 09-18-2019, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by UCBearcats View Post
https://breaking911.com/shock-video-...wn-minneapolis

What the hell is wrong with people to do this to another person? Given the racial makeup of this act, why are they not being charge with a hate crime? Imho I hope none of these guys are out for a couple decades.
I got everything i needed to make what I guess to be an accurate surmisal of this OP without even clicking on the thread. Title/username combo alone gave me *more* than enough info to know this was a vile, racist, whataboutist piece of predictable garbage.

So how'd I do?
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Old 09-18-2019, 12:02 PM
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It is absolutely terrible you went through that, SlackerInc.
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Old 09-18-2019, 12:15 PM
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Thanks, Ravenman. My friend got hurt worse than I did (he clearly had a concussion, and was bloodied and bruised all over) because he stayed up and tried to fight back. I immediately went into the fetal position and covered my head with my hands. I think I still may have gotten a concussion, although it was somewhat hard to tell because we had just smoked a bunch of weed.

Once they started taking turns with their leaping kicks on me as a stationary target, I became less sure about my defensive strategy. But I don’t know how staying up and running would have helped either, since it was a long way to any building or anything.
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Old 09-18-2019, 12:24 PM
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they amused themselves with taking running jumps to stomp on our heads and stuff like that. No one had a bicycle or potted plant though.

What is "stuff like that" when talking about stomping on your head? That is about the most vicious attack i can imagine without additional use of a weapon. Aside from my curiosity about what constitutes things similar to having one's head stomped onto concrete, I feel like yall had the biggest stroke of good luck ever escaping that ordeal without devastating, permanent brain damage. Wow. The spaghetti monster loves yo white ass!
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Old 09-18-2019, 12:44 PM
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I guess “stuff like that” really just means other kinds of flying kicks to various parts of our bodies, or at least mine (once I was down I kept my eyes closed).

We did indeed have good luck, although it clearly was not going to hold if the ladies didn’t drive up—unless these kids were just about to get bored and give up.

They never did get our money, by the way, although I would have gladly turned mine over to avoid the beating. But they really didn’t ever offer that stark choice, flipping like a switch from a vaguely ominous request (“can we have some money?” which we answered with a claim that we didn’t have any) to an all out assault pretty much instantly.

I guess I should have pulled my wallet out and thrown it on the ground with a plea to take it and leave us alone, but it did not occur to me at the time and they seemed like they had gone into riot mode by then anyway, just as in that video where most of the violence does not appear to be in service of robbing the guy.

BTW, the second video at that link talks about people stealing cell phones. Are they really any good once stolen? If you don’t have the passcode and they can be tracked and so on, what’s the point?

ETA: I do also think the devastating brain damage was avoided, at least up to that point, by the fact that a lot of these kids looked to be 100 pounds soaking wet. One on one, or even one against two, I would not have taken them seriously assuming they didn’t carry weapons. But there were at least a dozen of them altogether.

Last edited by SlackerInc; 09-18-2019 at 12:47 PM.
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Old 09-18-2019, 12:50 PM
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Eighteen white guys beat up on a single black guy while they take the black guy's stuff. Hate crime?
Yeah, nobody here is going to touch that.

Last edited by Doyle; 09-18-2019 at 12:52 PM.
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Old 09-18-2019, 01:08 PM
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BTW, the second video at that link talks about people stealing cell phones. Are they really any good once stolen? If you donít have the passcode and they can be tracked and so on, whatís the point?
Just one more way to sadistically violate the victim. Really, that's most of what was happening, at least in the first video at the OP's link (I didn't watch the second). When the victim didn't immediately cave in and hand over his phone, they all swarmed together to make him submit. It wasn't about the cell phone, it was an opportunistic beat-down for the sake of entertainment and, one-upmanship driven by peer pressure ("jumping on his head, good one...but watch THIS...").
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Old 09-18-2019, 01:19 PM
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Eighteen white guys beat up on a single black guy while they take the black guy's stuff. Hate crime?
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Yeah, nobody here is going to touch that.
Huh? If there's evidence that the attack was motivated by the victim's ethnicity (or sexuality, religion, etc.), then it would be appropriate to charge the attackers with a hate crime. If there isn't, then it wouldn't be.

There. I touched it. Now what?
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Old 09-18-2019, 01:21 PM
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Huh? If there's evidence that the attack was motivated by the victim's ethnicity (or sexuality, religion, etc.), then it would be appropriate to charge the attackers with a hate crime. If there isn't, then it wouldn't be.

There. I touched it. Now what?
Barely touched it. Please respond to her initial question.
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Old 09-18-2019, 01:23 PM
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What the hell is wrong with people to do this to another person?
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Old 09-18-2019, 01:29 PM
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Barely touched it. Please respond to her initial question.
Okay, could somebody else help me out here? How is what I said not a direct answer to the question?
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Old 09-18-2019, 01:31 PM
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No, I believe your scenario was a strawman or you don't understand hate crime laws.
So, two terms you need to spend some time reading up on: "strawman" and "hate crime." You haven't used either term correctly so far in this thread.
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Old 09-18-2019, 01:42 PM
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I do also think the devastating brain damage was avoided, at least up to that point, by the fact that a lot of these kids looked to be 100 pounds soaking wet. One on one, or even one against two, I would not have taken them seriously assuming they didnít carry weapons. But there were at least a dozen of them altogether.
Hmmm. Idk, one swift boot straight to the temple seems like it has the potential to cause some critical damage, at least from anyone in the double-digit age range and/or triple digit weight range. But either way, it's good you came out ok. It was a fucked up thing to have happen, to you or to anyone.
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Old 09-18-2019, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by neofishboy View Post
Okay, could somebody else help me out here? How is what I said not a direct answer to the question?
She posed the question that if it were 18 whites attacking 1 black would that have been assumed to be a hate crime? You did not address that. Perhaps you were confusing it with another post. If not, touch that question.
  #48  
Old 09-18-2019, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Doyle View Post
She posed the question that if it were 18 whites attacking 1 black would that have been assumed to be a hate crime? You did not address that. Perhaps you were confusing it with another post. If not, touch that question.
People would, without a doubt, rush to judge that it was racially motivated if not an outright hate crime.

Do we need to explore the reasons why that might be the case given the historical context? Or are we to assume we live in a post racial society where none of that is a factor anymore?

I'm not willing to dismiss the possibility that this attack was racially motivated. But given the odds, I'm thinking gang or mob mentality related violence is more likely. I'm willing to change my mind if evidence is presented for race based motive.
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Last edited by QuickSilver; 09-18-2019 at 02:42 PM.
  #49  
Old 09-18-2019, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
BTW, the second video at that link talks about people stealing cell phones. Are they really any good once stolen? If you donít have the passcode and they can be tracked and so on, whatís the point?
Yes. Even without the passcode, they can be wiped and restored to factory new condition. They get bought from thieves by fences here, then shipped to foreign countries where the authorities (and phone companies) don't care that they were stolen, and sold to end-users for much cheaper than actual factory-new ones. Needless to say, the thieves in the US receive only pennies on the dollar of the phone's actual retail value, but they think "hey, ten bucks is ten bucks..."
  #50  
Old 09-18-2019, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doyle View Post
She posed the question that if it were 18 whites attacking 1 black would that have been assumed to be a hate crime? You did not address that. Perhaps you were confusing it with another post. If not, touch that question.
Actually "assumed to be a hate crime" is your invention. It appears nowhere in the question. Go ahead. Read it again. Here I'll quote it to make it easier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Two Many Cats View Post
Eighteen white guys beat up on a single black guy while they take the black guy's stuff. Hate crime?
She straight up asks if it's a hate crime, and I (correctly) pointed out that the hypothetical doesn't have enough information to make that determination.

Here, how about this: John is walking down the street with a 100-dollar bill in his wallet. Five minutes later the bill is in David's pocket. Robbery? Remember, you can only answer "yes" or "no".
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