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Old 12-07-2018, 06:01 AM
Royal Nonesutch Royal Nonesutch is offline
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Kevin Hart Steps Down From Hosting The Oscars

On Tuesday, comedian Kevin Hart was announced to be the host for the 91st Academy Awards, but early this morning he said he was stepping down due to mounting pressure from people who called him homophobic for (in particular) one of his old 2010 standup routines in which he said he hoped his son didn't grow up to be gay.

He apologized, after a fashion, and said he had grown and matured since he made his "jokes", but then seemed to realize that the damage had already been done years earlier and the furor would likely only continue to grow.

What do you think?

Should he have fought to keep the gig or did he do the right thing by bowing out?
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Old 12-07-2018, 06:08 AM
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Censorship is alive and well in America.
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Old 12-07-2018, 06:49 AM
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Censorship is alive and well in America.
...so is hyperbole apparently.
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Old 12-07-2018, 07:05 AM
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Never ever say anything ever, just in case a single person decides it's now considered offensive.
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Old 12-07-2018, 07:15 AM
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Censorship is alive and well in America.
How is he being censored? Heís still allowed to say whatever he wants. That there are consequences for oneís actions isnít censorship. Iíll add that itís a private organization, not the government, that is taking the action.
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Old 12-07-2018, 07:18 AM
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Never ever say anything ever, just in case a single person decides it's now considered offensive.
A single person? Overreact much?

Racism and homophobia is never ok. Do you agree?
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Old 12-07-2018, 07:29 AM
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A single person? Overreact much?

Racism and homophobia is never ok. Do you agree?
I'm being general, rather than specifically about Kevin Hart. Too many people's lives are being derailed because somebody somewhere didn't like what they said once. Well, fuck em. They can like or dislike whatever they want, that's their business, but that shouldn't give them the right to end somebody's career over it.

Jokes, if they work as jokes, are allowed to be offensive. I have my own limits on what I like, but I don't think anything should be completely off the table. Context matters. Their careers should be based on general audience popularity, not on a single individual's personal tastes.
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Old 12-07-2018, 07:37 AM
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I'm being general, rather than specifically about Kevin Hart. Too many people's lives are being derailed because somebody somewhere didn't like what they said once. Well, fuck em. They can like or dislike whatever they want, that's their business, but that shouldn't give them the right to end somebody's career over it.

Jokes, if they work as jokes, are allowed to be offensive. I have my own limits on what I like, but I don't think anything should be completely off the table. Context matters. Their careers should be based on general audience popularity, not on a single individual's personal tastes.
His career isnít over. The Academy made what is essentially a business decision. He had the chance to sincerely apologize. If you very publicly disparage an entire group of people by saying that theyíre so disgusting that he wouldnít want their son to be one of them, itís reasonable for them to not be hired by an organization that has many people in that group as members.
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Old 12-07-2018, 07:46 AM
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See the bit where I said I'm not talking about Kevin Hart?

I'm talking about the general sense of "being offended" considered a legitimate position. It's not.
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Old 12-07-2018, 07:54 AM
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See the bit where I said I'm not talking about Kevin Hart?

I'm talking about the general sense of "being offended" considered a legitimate position. It's not.
My bad. I thought this entire thread was about Kevin Hart based on its title and the content of the OP.

Ok, Iíll play. Itís reasonable for me not to hire someone who offends me. Itís reasonable for lots of people not to hire someone that they find offensive. Itís reasonable for a company not to hire someone as the face of their organization because lots of people find them offensive.
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Old 12-07-2018, 08:00 AM
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It's reasonable to not hire someone if they do something wrong, illegal, harmful, abusive, or dangerous. It's not reasonable to not hire someone because they once did something somebody didn't like.
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Old 12-07-2018, 08:02 AM
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This smacks of another 'political correctness' thread.

Yes, Hart has a right to say what he wants, offensive or not. But he does not have the right to be free of the consequences of his words and actions. When you speak, you chance that your words will have consequences. In this case, one of the consequences is losing a gig. Fine. It happens.

But one shouldn't paint this as some form of censorship. So-called 'edgy' comedians get hung on this sort of thing all the time. It's the chance they take.

Cries of 'let him speak' or 'political correctness' - which I realize hasn't popped up here yet - are really just calls for a 'safe space' for the offensive to be free from consequences. Just as much as college kids wishing for such on campus, they're a bit silly. The difference is, on college campuses it's waterhead kids without experience while in the wider world it's grown-ass adults who should already have learned that words and actions have consequences.
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Old 12-07-2018, 08:02 AM
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It's reasonable to not hire someone if they do something wrong, illegal, harmful, abusive, or dangerous. It's not reasonable to not hire someone because they once did something somebody didn't like.
Homophobia is wrong and harmful.
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Old 12-07-2018, 08:03 AM
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It's entirely his own fault. People got upset after finding his old stuff, demanding an apology. The Oscars told him he'd need to apologize to do the show. He refused, saying he'd already aapologized, and that you have to move on at some point. And so they didn't keep him. He faced a lot of backlash, and suddenly he was okay with apologizing.

There is no ongoing problem All he needed was an apology, which is something you should give as a matter of course if you truly regret your actions. That shows we are willing to forgive.

Once again, someone who was sorry for their tweets didn't delete them. People need to get through their heads that, if you no longer agree with something you said on Twitter under your real name, and you are going out for any type of public-facing job, delete those tweets. Every famous person should have done that by now. Hire someone to do it, even.

And screw the censorship claims. You aren't being censored. You're being held to what you said, if you don't delete or apologize. Having to stand by or repudiate your words is a good thing.

And then people can decide if they want to do business with you based on what you stand for.
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Old 12-07-2018, 08:20 AM
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The only good recent host was McFarlane. It’s a shit gig anyway. They had trouble getting a host and I doubt that’ll work get easier now, so contarary to what some poster said, it’s not a business decision, its Hart deciding its more trouble than its worth

They should (as one suggestion I read) ask Siri or Alexa to host. Hard to see people getting offended there.
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Old 12-07-2018, 08:24 AM
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The only good recent host was McFarlane. Itís a shit gig anyway. They had trouble getting a host and I doubt thatíll work get easier now, so contarary to what some poster said, itís not a business decision, its Hart deciding its more trouble than its worth

They should (as one suggestion I read) ask Siri or Alexa to host. Hard to see people getting offended there.
I have no opinion on Hartís motivations but itís absolutely a business decision on the Academyís part.
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Old 12-07-2018, 08:28 AM
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I have no opinion on Hartís motivations but itís absolutely a business decision on the Academyís part.
Hart jumped. The Academy did not want him to go. They wanted him to apologise and move on. He felt he did not have to.
I repeat, they had a lot of trouble finding a host. Not going to get better after this.
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Old 12-07-2018, 08:30 AM
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That shows we are willing to forgive.
This is my problem. Something from the past that they already have apologised for, atoned for, learned from, changed over, and have grown up into a better person since, gets unearthed again, presented without proper context, just so they can be "offended" by it all over again, is not forgiveness. It's vindictive.

Somebody not liking something you said or did in your past is not a good reason to mess up somebody's opportunities. It's not being fair. Life is about learning and growing. Is it fair if I was judged only by a single harmless incident I committed thirty years ago, and not by everything I have done since? And I mean expressing an opinion, a point of view, not murder or abuse; something I would never say now.

It scares me how the offenderati are ruling how we can behave now, like we should be superhumanly perfect people throughout our entire lives, no amount of growth being good enough to make up that one naughty thing we once did.
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Old 12-07-2018, 08:36 AM
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Hart is free to tell all the (barely even) jokes about Gay Panic that he wants all the live long day. He is also free to accept the consequences that some people aren't going to hire him based on that material. Especially, you know, the freaking Oscars, which has a fair number of gay members. These decisions are made all the time and never even get to this level because someone did their homework first, instead of missing things like this and then having to backtrack. Hence the "censorship" of Andrew Dice Clay not getting to host the Oscars every year 1988-present.
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Old 12-07-2018, 08:49 AM
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This is my problem. Something from the past that they already have apologised for, atoned for, learned from, changed over, and have grown up into a better person since, gets unearthed again, presented without proper context, just so they can be "offended" by it all over again, is not forgiveness. It's vindictive.

Somebody not liking something you said or did in your past is not a good reason to mess up somebody's opportunities. It's not being fair. Life is about learning and growing. Is it fair if I was judged only by a single harmless incident I committed thirty years ago, and not by everything I have done since? And I mean expressing an opinion, a point of view, not murder or abuse; something I would never say now.

It scares me how the offenderati are ruling how we can behave now, like we should be superhumanly perfect people throughout our entire lives, no amount of growth being good enough to make up that one naughty thing we once did.
I completely agree with this I don't even like Kevin Hart, I think his stand-up material sucks and he isn't even remotely funny (to me).

At the end of the day, the Oscars can hire or not hire/fire anyone they choose and Kevin isn't being censored. But I can see his point of view. We're talking about comments he made many years ago, has already apologized for, grew out of the experience, and now behaves differently with understanding of the harm he was previously causing. Yet some group of internet assholes unearth the original comments and make a fuss loud enough that the Academy wants an apology and now he has to go through it all again. I think if he really wanted the gig hosting, he could have addressed this differently but how many times does one have to do so? Next time he is booked for a comedy show in Anytown, USA does he have to do it again because someone went out again and surfaced the same past comments and complains to the theater owner? 2 years from now if he gets a new sit-com, does he have to do it AGAIN when a new group of bored internet losers digs up past comments and goes online and starts another outrage targeting NBC, ABC, CBS, etc.? It's just ridiculous and absurd. I can completely understand his initial reaction.
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Old 12-07-2018, 09:11 AM
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He apologized, after a fashion
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This is my problem. Something from the past that they already have apologised for, atoned for, learned from, changed over, and have grown up into a better person since
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We're talking about comments he made many years ago, has already apologized for, grew out of the experience, and now behaves differently with understanding of the harm he was previously causing.
Cite to his past apology?

And if someone's done something they've come to realize was wrong, and they've apologized for it, and learned and grown from the experience and have grown into a better person, why the obstinate refusal to so much as repeat that earlier apology?

I'd never heard of this guy before maybe Wednesday, so I've got no dog in this fight, but that just sounds like total bullshit to me.
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Old 12-07-2018, 10:17 AM
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I completely agree with this I don't even like Kevin Hart, I think his stand-up material sucks and he isn't even remotely funny (to me).
+1, and I don't watch the Academy Awards because they're pointless and pretentious and boring as hell, but anyone who posts "I'm in love with the man I'm becoming" on social media deserves to be kneed in the bag just on principle.
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Old 12-07-2018, 10:40 AM
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Does anyone ever think, boy I hope my son grows up gay?

Why would you?
It's just going to make life harder for the kid, why would you want that for him?
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Old 12-07-2018, 10:53 AM
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Does anyone ever think, boy I hope my son grows up gay?
I don't see your point. I have two kids. I never thought for a second, gee, I hope they don't grow up gay or, gee, I hope they grow up straight! I hope they grow up being themselves. If one or both are gay, then, yes, I hope they grow up gay and not try to be something they're not because of societal pressures, or whatnot. Luckily, the environment for that has been getting better over the last few decades.
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Old 12-07-2018, 10:57 AM
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Some people in this thread have clearly not seen the things Hart tweeted.
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Old 12-07-2018, 11:23 AM
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Some people in this thread have clearly not seen the things Hart tweeted.
Sadly, I think they have. How can anyone defend ďYo if my son comes home & try's 2 play with my daughters doll house I'm going 2 break it over his head & say n my voice 'stop that's gay.'Ē? Itís not funny and he wasnít mocking actual assholes. Itís just disgusting.
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Old 12-07-2018, 11:32 AM
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Hart jumped. The Academy did not want him to go. They wanted him to apologise and move on. He felt he did not have to.
I repeat, they had a lot of trouble finding a host. Not going to get better after this.
Certainly, it's not a good look for the Academy to be firing an African-American host, given its highly public recent efforts to address its longstanding racial inequities.
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Old 12-07-2018, 11:34 AM
Procrustus Procrustus is offline
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This is my problem. Something from the past that they already have apologised for, atoned for, learned from, changed over, and have grown up into a better person since, gets unearthed again, presented without proper context, just so they can be "offended" by it all over again, is not forgiveness. It's vindictive.

Somebody not liking something you said or did in your past is not a good reason to mess up somebody's opportunities. It's not being fair. Life is about learning and growing. Is it fair if I was judged only by a single harmless incident I committed thirty years ago, and not by everything I have done since? And I mean expressing an opinion, a point of view, not murder or abuse; something I would never say now.

It scares me how the offenderati are ruling how we can behave now, like we should be superhumanly perfect people throughout our entire lives, no amount of growth being good enough to make up that one naughty thing we once did.
You're certainly free to boycott the Oscars broadcast in protest.

Having read what this guy (who I never heard of before this thread) actually tweeted, I think it's fair to say it was quite offensive. More than "I hope my son isn't gay." (which is offensive enough). I don't know how long ago he tweeted that, but Twitter hasn't been around that long, so it wasn't "thirty years ago."
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Old 12-07-2018, 11:46 AM
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Having read what this guy (who I never heard of before this thread)
Sort of beside the point and you're not the first person to say this, but I find this surprising. He's had a number of fairly high grossing films and was a prominent part of one of the biggest films of 2017.
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Old 12-07-2018, 11:59 AM
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You're certainly free to boycott the Oscars broadcast in protest.

Having read what this guy (who I never heard of before this thread) actually tweeted, I think it's fair to say it was quite offensive. More than "I hope my son isn't gay." (which is offensive enough). I don't know how long ago he tweeted that, but Twitter hasn't been around that long, so it wasn't "thirty years ago."
The quote I copied was from 2011 when Hart was in his early 30s. This is not a relic of days of yore or from someone too young to know better.
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Old 12-07-2018, 12:05 PM
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Sort of beside the point and you're not the first person to say this, but I find this surprising. He's had a number of fairly high grossing films and was a prominent part of one of the biggest films of 2017.
To continue the tangent:

I just googled him. I didn't know he was African American. He never hit my radar. I don't even know which of the three 2017 films he was in was the big one. I guess I don't follow films too much (of all the films listed for him, I've only seen one. The 40 Year Old Virgin, and that was 13 years ago).

This is the major reason I can never appear on Jeopardy. I have some real gaps in my knowledge base.
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Old 12-07-2018, 12:11 PM
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Sort of beside the point and you're not the first person to say this, but I find this surprising. He's had a number of fairly high grossing films and was a prominent part of one of the biggest films of 2017.
It's amazingly possible to live a full life and not know a thing about popular films.
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Old 12-07-2018, 12:32 PM
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He made the smart move and stepped down they didn't force him out. Now the ball is in their court and apparently GLAAD or whatever still wants him to host. He did issue another apology before saying he wouldn't be hosting, now I think the Academy are the ones who look like assholes, why should he deal with the drama, the guy's career is on fire and this won't affect it.
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Old 12-07-2018, 12:38 PM
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Some people in this thread have clearly not seen the things Hart tweeted.
I haven't posted here, but now I am curious. Can someone link to them or quote them?
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Old 12-07-2018, 12:52 PM
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This is my problem. Something from the past that they already have apologised for, atoned for, learned from, changed over, and have grown up into a better person since, gets unearthed again, presented without proper context, just so they can be "offended" by it all over again, is not forgiveness. It's vindictive.

Somebody not liking something you said or did in your past is not a good reason to mess up somebody's opportunities. It's not being fair. Life is about learning and growing. Is it fair if I was judged only by a single harmless incident I committed thirty years ago, and not by everything I have done since? And I mean expressing an opinion, a point of view, not murder or abuse; something I would never say now.

It scares me how the offenderati are ruling how we can behave now, like we should be superhumanly perfect people throughout our entire lives, no amount of growth being good enough to make up that one naughty thing we once did.
My only comment to this is that actions are what speak to me, not apologies. Is there evidence of actual change, in this case or in the general cases you are talking about? If they are a public figure, have they taken public actions to counter-act their stupidity of a few years ago? I can picture some type of PSA, or some work with a non-profit, that shows that actual change has happened. Lacking something like that, any apology no matter how well worded is going to sound hollow and opportunistic to me.

Also I think you are using words like "offenderati" and using hyperbole by referring to one incident "30 years ago" to inflate your view of the issue and to draw attention away from any actual damage done by the original act. You seem to think that words are harmless. They aren't.
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Old 12-07-2018, 12:54 PM
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See the bit where I said I'm not talking about Kevin Hart?

I'm talking about the general sense of "being offended" considered a legitimate position. It's not.
The problem with being a bigot is not that people get offended about it, the problem is that you are a bigot.

Last edited by DigitalC; 12-07-2018 at 12:54 PM.
  #37  
Old 12-07-2018, 01:02 PM
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My only comment to this is that actions are what speak to me, not apologies. Is there evidence of actual change, in this case or in the general cases you are talking about? If they are a public figure, have they taken public actions to counter-act their stupidity of a few years ago? I can picture some type of PSA, or some work with a non-profit, that shows that actual change has happened. Lacking something like that, any apology no matter how well worded is going to sound hollow and opportunistic to me.

Also I think you are using words like "offenderati" and using hyperbole by referring to one incident "30 years ago" to inflate your view of the issue and to draw attention away from any actual damage done by the original act. You seem to think that words are harmless. They aren't.
Jokes are harmless. Was there one single episode of someone breaking a doll house over their son after Hart's joke? Of course not. When he said the joke, people laughed, felt a little better and then nothing bad happened.
Jimmy Kimmel has a long history of misogynistic jokes and a habit of blackface. Yet he was host the past two years without controversy. Has the Academy really fallen this far in only one year?
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Old 12-07-2018, 01:08 PM
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I don't see your point. I have two kids. I never thought for a second, gee, I hope they don't grow up gay or, gee, I hope they grow up straight! I hope they grow up being themselves. If one or both are gay, then, yes, I hope they grow up gay and not try to be something they're not because of societal pressures, or whatnot. Luckily, the environment for that has been getting better over the last few decades.


The point was I don't think anyone HOPES their son will be gay.
If someone were to ask, "do you hope your son will be gay or straight?"
The HONEST answer would be straight, because , like I said, his life would be easier.

Yes you're right it is getting better/ easier for gays, and that's a good thing, but there are still obstacles that they will encounter that a straight guy wouldn't.

If your son were to turn out to be gay , well that's a different thing, and you still do your best.
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Old 12-07-2018, 01:08 PM
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Jokes are harmless. Was there one single episode of someone breaking a doll house over their son after Hart's joke? Of course not. When he said the joke, people laughed, felt a little better and then nothing bad happened.
I'm guessing a whole lot of people neither laughed nor felt a little better.
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Old 12-07-2018, 01:09 PM
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The point was I don't think anyone HOPES their son will be gay.
If someone were to ask, "do you hope your son will be gay or straight?"
The HONEST answer would be straight, because , like I said, his life would be easier.
Nope, my honest answer is "I don't care."
  #41  
Old 12-07-2018, 01:13 PM
pulykamell pulykamell is offline
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Originally Posted by johnod View Post
T
The HONEST answer would be straight, because , like I said, his life would be easier.
You speak for yourself. My honest answer is that I hope for them to be themselves, straight or gay. This ain't some PC claptrap, either. That's the way I feel and I have always felt.
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Old 12-07-2018, 01:23 PM
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krondys krondys is offline
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Originally Posted by hajario View Post
The quote I copied was from 2011 when Hart was in his early 30s. This is not a relic of days of yore or from someone too young to know better.
I find this offensive.

As I just posted in another thread, I previously held a view on gender-identity issues that would have been considered offensive to those in that community. I would have been in my early thirties at the time. Now, I am in my late thirties, and my views on that have been completely changed, as I learned more about it and examined my own thoughts and feelings on the subject. And from that, I grew into a more thoughtful person on that issue, and do not like my previous stance.

People grow and learn every day. I think the change in my position was only as long ago as 2014, so three years after Hart's tweet. If I can completely evolve in that time, why couldn't he?
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Old 12-07-2018, 01:24 PM
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krondys krondys is offline
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Originally Posted by johnod View Post
The point was I don't think anyone HOPES their son will be gay.
If someone were to ask, "do you hope your son will be gay or straight?"
The HONEST answer would be straight, because , like I said, his life would be easier.
My kids have always known that we would accept them, and all options are on the table. I don't care one whit if they grow up gay, straight, bi, trans, whatever... as long as they are happy with who they are.
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Old 12-07-2018, 01:33 PM
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CarnalK CarnalK is offline
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It's amazingly possible to live a full life and not know a thing about popular films.
And still have a useful opinion on who should host the Oscars? I suppose it's a free country.
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Old 12-07-2018, 01:36 PM
Gyrate Gyrate is offline
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Sadly, I think they have. How can anyone defend ďYo if my son comes home & try's 2 play with my daughters doll house I'm going 2 break it over his head & say n my voice 'stop that's gay.'Ē? Itís not funny and he wasnít mocking actual assholes. Itís just disgusting.
No, see, it's funny because he...no, I got nothing unless there's some significant context missing.

I've enjoyed some of Hart's film work (Central Intelligence, Jumanji) although the bits of his standup I've seen have not impressed me and he seems to have a reputation as a bit of a dick with regard to his standup tours. And I accept that people say dumb and sometimes hurtful stuff they later regret (as I certainly have). But if Hart's earlier comments were going to be a massive distraction at the Oscars (luvviefest that they are) then Hart is probably right to step down and let someone else take the helm.
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Old 12-07-2018, 01:42 PM
Procrustus Procrustus is offline
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Originally Posted by CarnalK View Post
And still have a useful opinion on who should host the Oscars? I suppose it's a free country.
Sure. I don't have an opinion as to who should win the Oscars, but I can have an opinion about who should host them (although I don't).

Trump, for example, should not host the Oscars. Neither should Rosanne Barr. I can say that without having any idea about the films in contention.
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Old 12-07-2018, 02:43 PM
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Anyone can have an opinion on anything. You'll note I used the adjective "useful". If you don't give a crap about popular movies, I would suggest you extend that to not giving a crap about the awards ceremony for popular movies. But hey, like I said, it's a free country.

Last edited by CarnalK; 12-07-2018 at 02:44 PM.
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Old 12-07-2018, 02:45 PM
Procrustus Procrustus is offline
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Originally Posted by CarnalK View Post
Anyone can have an opinion on anything. You'll note I used the adjective "useful". If you don't give a crap about popular movies, I would suggest you extend that to not giving a crap about the awards ceremony for popular movies. But hey, like I said, it's a free country.
I'm on board with that. I can see how my comments might be read to conclude I care about the Academy's decision. I don't really. Although I know enough (now) to see why they were uncomfortable with Mr. Hart, and I can support that (in a not giving a crap kind of way)
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Old 12-07-2018, 02:51 PM
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FWIW, I do know the guy and I actually think he's a shit comedian. Honestly can't stand him. Since I get forced to watch the Oscars every year, I'm rather happy he's out.
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Old 12-07-2018, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Jonathan Chance View Post
This smacks of another 'political correctness' thread.

Yes, Hart has a right to say what he wants, offensive or not. But he does not have the right to be free of the consequences of his words and actions. When you speak, you chance that your words will have consequences. In this case, one of the consequences is losing a gig. Fine. It happens.

But one shouldn't paint this as some form of censorship. So-called 'edgy' comedians get hung on this sort of thing all the time. It's the chance they take.

Cries of 'let him speak' or 'political correctness' - which I realize hasn't popped up here yet - are really just calls for a 'safe space' for the offensive to be free from consequences. Just as much as college kids wishing for such on campus, they're a bit silly. The difference is, on college campuses it's waterhead kids without experience while in the wider world it's grown-ass adults who should already have learned that words and actions have consequences.
The problem these days is that the very concept of a statute of limitations has been tossed out the window. It's one thing to have consequences--it's entirely another for several years or (in some cases) even decades to go by where there were no consequences and then BAM! suddenly it seems like the whole world decides, "Guess what? There are major, news-making consequences for what used to be a very minor thing--a thing that had been forgotten until we decided to rake up."
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