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  #51  
Old 12-04-2018, 02:30 PM
Shodan Shodan is offline
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Originally Posted by Buck Godot View Post
If I elucidate my thoughts in the following manner than I might give the erroneous impression that rather than reach a level of comity with my audience that I was attempting to demonstrate my intellectual proficiency and evoke the notion that I am putting on airs, regardless of their ability to comprehend my meaning.
Oh stewardess - I speak jive.

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  #52  
Old 12-04-2018, 02:31 PM
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Because the authors hand picked those specific words and names when looking at speech transcripts (words) and setting up their hypothetical tests (names).
That would be a question for them. Whether they did that 'blind' or did it in hopes of a result, I don't know.
It sounds like for the speeches, the words were picked out a priori from another publication and so effectively blind.
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Competence and warmth dictionaries were created to measure participants’ self-presentation in participants’ introductions. The competence dictionary was derived from published lists of agentic words and from LIWC’s power dictionary, which includes 518 words relevant to status, dominance, and social hierarchy (e.g., assertive, competitive; Gaucher, Friesen, & Kay, 2011; Pennebaker, Booth, Boyd, & Francis, 2015; Rudman & Kolinski, 2000). The warmth dictionary was derived from published lists of communal words and from LIWC’s affiliation dictionary, which includes 248 words that reference others (e.g., supportive, compassionate; Gaucher, Friesen, & Kay, 2011; Pennebaker, Booth, Boyd, & Francis, 2015; Rudman & Killianski, 2000).2
  #53  
Old 12-04-2018, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
Which is quite a refreshing change from our usual fare of liberal posters citing results of liberal studies that find liberals are better people. Variety, it's the spice of life.
Is this thread about a liberal study? No. So why would I bring up the topic of liberal studies?
  #54  
Old 12-04-2018, 02:52 PM
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Missing the point.

The "competent words" weren't just big words that should be avoided around blacks because they are stupid people couldn't understand them. They were words that are used by the speaker to signal high ability and status. Basically one-upsmanship words.

Liberal whites are acutely aware that many whites are racist and consider themselves superior to blacks, and are terrified of being thought of in that way, so they avoid using words that are and terrified of giving the impression that they think themselves superior and so they avoided these words when talking to African Americans, and would instead use more "warmth" words that would indicate that they wanted to indicate community and non-competitiveness.

And yes doing so, despite the best intentions, is a bit condescending.

Last edited by Buck Godot; 12-04-2018 at 02:53 PM.
  #55  
Old 12-04-2018, 03:21 PM
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FWIW this commentary from the linked article deals with what a study like that can miss.

Quote:
Originally Posted by R. K. Prince
I am a university instructor in the so called Rust Belt. I happen to be an Ivy League trained individual who just happens to be African American. The follow email exchange was between myself and a female student who I know to also be African American. I had just sent out a study guide with instructions about the final exam. The student attempted to gain insight.

Student: So for the final exam it will like some videos we have to watch or links and some questions to answer to it
Me: Forgive me but I don't understand what you are asking.
You wrote: "So for the final exam it will like some videos we have to watch or links and some questions to answer to it."
I don't understand. Please try to explain.
Student's reply: "I'm sorry was writing this n trying to help my daughter. But what I was saying was so the final will be like some links followed by some questions?"

This student is a freshman and I have found it typical of recent high school graduates from lower income area high schools to not have the proper training in writing and the other communication skills needed to complete for white collar post undergraduate level jobs. The fact that she is black really doesn't matter because I have an equal number of white and Hispanic students who all write like they talk i.e. phonetical spelling and grammar.

My point is this: studies like this are as wrong as they are right. I would venture to say that most African Americans have these issues, but that most Americans, regardless of race, have the same problems. All forms of communication from the dominant group (upper class white men ) to the minorities (lower classes, racial subgroups, women) are "dumbed down." This is how Trump was (and is) able to effectively communicate with his base. This Ivy League educated man confessed off the top that he "loved the uneducated." And he communicates through lowest common denominator (Twitter), and by using cute little third grade level monikers (Crooked Hillary, Lyin' Ted, etc).
[Bold added]

I noted before that some conservatives elsewhere in the SDMB disparaged science in general, when a lot of the issues come from troubles replicating psychology or medicine studies. On previous discussions it was clear to me that there were troubles and issues, but nowhere as bad as critics assumed. But while one has to consider the field and the study should not be rejected, it should not guide all conclusions until more studies and data are available. IMHO this has to be taken as a single study should be taken in science: with interest and with more research needed. But a single study is not enough to make overreaching conclusions.

Last edited by GIGObuster; 12-04-2018 at 03:22 PM.
  #56  
Old 12-04-2018, 03:46 PM
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I don't think it's a racial thing, most liberals do that when talking to conservatives these days.
  #57  
Old 12-04-2018, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
So you really believe that the linguistic structure and vocabulary of a dialect is a causative factor related to economic achievement? That seems... strange, to me.

Especially when considering the likelihood (discussed in a thread I started a while back - I can link later) that when educators ignore the existence and significance of AAVE, many black students suffer considerably lower educational achievement. But when educators take AAVE into account, and treat it as a real dialect rather than "poor English", then those students do considerably better.

Seems to me that you've got it exactly backwards - taking AAVE into account and treating it like a real dialect probably results in much better things for black people than ignoring its existence and/or treating it like "poor English".
Look. I didn’t say to ignore anything. As one person, speaking to another person, I would not adopt an outgroup dialect or otherwise encourage its use to that person. Why? I know that as a person in 2018, if you use that dialect, you may have trouble getting a job or interacting with someone it would benefit you to interact with. Are you seriously suggesting someone using AAVE has an equal chance at economic advancement?

If I was speaking to someone about to go live in Japan, I would not encourage them to speak Joe Pesci English over there and start some campaign to have it recognized as a form of communication that is equal to their prevailing dialect. No. I give advice and encouragement about practically maneuvering through societies towards success. I don’t stamp my foot indignantly and encourage the use of a dialect I don’t speak myself.

HBCUs do not encourage the use of AAVE in the departments I am familiar with. What makes you think you know better?
  #58  
Old 12-04-2018, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
Look. I didn’t say to ignore anything. As one person, speaking to another person, I would not adopt an outgroup dialect or otherwise encourage its use to that person. Why? I know that as a person in 2018, if you use that dialect, you may have trouble getting a job or interacting with someone it would benefit you to interact with. Are you seriously suggesting someone using AAVE has an equal chance at economic advancement?

If I was speaking to someone about to go live in Japan, I would not encourage them to speak Joe Pesci English over there and start some campaign to have it recognized as a form of communication that is equal to their prevailing dialect. No. I give advice and encouragement about practically maneuvering through societies towards success. I don’t stamp my foot indignantly and encourage the use of a dialect I don’t speak myself.

HBCUs do not encourage the use of AAVE in the departments I am familiar with. What makes you think you know better?
Taking the dialect of the audience into account when crafting a message isn't encouraging anything. It's just trying to make one's message more accessible.
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  #59  
Old 12-04-2018, 04:24 PM
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Taking the dialect of the audience into account when crafting a message isn't encouraging anything. It's just trying to make one's message more accessible.
Take that video of Hillary Clinton trying to adopt an altered way of speaking while on the stump. The idea that this is a respectable way to interact with people is very foreign to me.

I wasn’t the audience for that speech, though.

If you are not a genuine speaker of AAVE, I would advise against its use in the company of those who are. You will likely get many sideward glances.

Last edited by WillFarnaby; 12-04-2018 at 04:28 PM.
  #60  
Old 12-04-2018, 04:27 PM
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Is this thread about a liberal study? No. So why would I bring up the topic of liberal studies?
Actually, I think it might be about a liberal study. Here are some of the comments in this thread about the study:

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Originally Posted by EscAlaMike View Post
Here's a link to the actual study from Yale

The authors of the study seem to presume that white liberals are "less biased" and more "well-intentioned".
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Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
Do they offer any support in favor of the “well-intentioned” part? Seems like a projection of the authors own political preferences.
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Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
Except the study authors bend over backwards to explain why conservatives are bigoted and liberals are still “well-intentioned”. I don’t know if they are conservative, but I doubt it.
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Originally Posted by Ravenman View Post
Which obviously explains these quotes from the article:

Quote:
Their conservative counterparts, meanwhile, appear not to employ these stereotypes in the same way, as Dupree said, because, “we know empirically that white conservatives are less likely to be interested in getting along with racial minorities.” . . .

In tracking the word choices made by white Republican and Democratic presidential candidates before white and black voters, her sample size was limited primarily by “the number of speeches in which Republican presidential candidates showed up for black audiences,” she said. ...

"Despite the patronizing behavior that they enact, these liberal candidates may hold more goodwill toward minorities.”
Yay conservatives! You really won this study!

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 12-04-2018 at 04:28 PM.
  #61  
Old 12-04-2018, 04:27 PM
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Take that video of Hillary Clinton trying to adopt an altered way of speaking while on the stump. The idea that this is a respectable way to interact with people is very foreign to me.

I wasn’t the audience for that speech, though.
No idea what this video could possibly have to do with the concept of taking the dialect of one's audience into account when crafting a message. Are you seriously arguing that speakers should intentionally ignore the language and dialect of their intended audience? That sounds like a recipe for poor messaging. This could be done well or done poorly, but the idea that it shouldn't be done at all is ridiculous.
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  #62  
Old 12-04-2018, 04:28 PM
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Which obviously explains these quotes from the article: Yay conservatives! You really won this study!
Did you actually you know, read those quotes?

We know ...
and maybe , and might and possibly ?

Where are the studies that show they know what they are spouting off about?
Nonsense.

A thinly veiled attempt at covering up results that they dislike.
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  #63  
Old 12-04-2018, 04:31 PM
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Funny how this thread started out as non-liberals embracing "science," and is turning to non-liberals rejecting "science."

Last edited by Ravenman; 12-04-2018 at 04:31 PM.
  #64  
Old 12-04-2018, 04:36 PM
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Funny how this thread started out as non-liberals embracing "science," and is turning to non-liberals rejecting "science."
Well then it ought to be trivial how they know what they based those comments on about their conclusions yeah?

As soon as they started trying to rationalize the why's of the differences, the "science" went poof
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Last edited by Kearsen; 12-04-2018 at 04:37 PM.
  #65  
Old 12-04-2018, 04:38 PM
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No idea what this video could possibly have to do with the concept of taking the dialect of one's audience into account when crafting a message. Are you seriously arguing that speakers should intentionally ignore the language and dialect of their intended audience? That sounds like a recipe for poor messaging. This could be done well or done poorly, but the idea that it shouldn't be done at all is ridiculous.
No I am saying assumptions based on race alone are unseemly and possibly give hints as to why liberals hold the political views that they do.
  #66  
Old 12-04-2018, 04:39 PM
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No I am saying assumptions based on race alone are unseemly and possibly give hints as to why liberals hold the political views that they do.
Whatever this is has nothing to do with what I'm saying.
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  #67  
Old 12-04-2018, 04:44 PM
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Well then it ought to be trivial how they know what they based those comments on about their conclusions yeah?

As soon as they started trying to rationalize the why's of the differences, the "science" went poof
Oh, it's sort of like how climate scientists are allowed to say the Earth is getting hotter, but when they investigate why, right wingers lose their shit and say "That's not your job!11!"
  #68  
Old 12-04-2018, 04:44 PM
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You just need to know how to talk to those people. You can't use big words, because then it sounds like you think you better than them, and you have to be all friendly-like, otherwise they think you racist.

Richard Pryor's line from one of his comedy albums, where a wino is talking to an ex-con.
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Originally Posted by The Wino, from That N*gger's Crazy!
Your problem is that you don't know how to deal with the white man.

I know how to deal with him - that's why I'm in the position I am today!
Only from the other side.

Regards,
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  #69  
Old 12-04-2018, 04:46 PM
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Oh, it's sort of like how climate scientists are allowed to say the Earth is getting hotter, but when they investigate why, right wingers lose their shit and say "That's not your job!11!"
I am not currently nor will I be interested in discussing what 'they' do about 'that other thing'

So anything on the study?
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  #70  
Old 12-04-2018, 04:51 PM
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Well, really...

"I beg your pardon, Ms. Flight Attendant, but I happen to be conversant in the dialect spoken by these gentlemen."

Wake up and smell the Millennium.
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  #71  
Old 12-04-2018, 04:55 PM
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So this study found that conservatives talk to Black people? OK. Baby steps.
  #72  
Old 12-04-2018, 06:25 PM
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Did these politicians who allegedly speak so differently to whites and to blacks speak to control crowds formed of people equal in financial status, educational level, and all other aspects aside from race?

Or did these politicians speak to different mixed-race groups, some of whom were predominantly black, others were predominantly white, some of which were formed of mostly college-educated people, others mostly people with a high school diploma at best?

Unfortunately, because of the terrible ways that black people were historically treated in this country, African-Americans today are much less likely to be college educated, and much more likely to be poor. So if a politician is tailoring their speeches to the crowds they are speaking to (for example, avoiding words like "melancholy" when speaking in poverty-stricken areas, both to avoid leaving anyone out by using needlessly flowery language and to avoid seeming to "put on airs") then a study could show that these politicians use "lower level" words when speaking to African Americans, even if the race of their crowd never entered their mind when they were writing the speech.
  #73  
Old 12-04-2018, 06:32 PM
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Conservative poster cites results of conservative study that finds conservatives are better people.
We could compare, I guess, if conservatives talked to black people.
  #74  
Old 12-04-2018, 06:33 PM
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Take that video of Hillary Clinton trying to adopt an altered way of speaking while on the stump. The idea that this is a respectable way to interact with people is very foreign to me.


So Trump reaching for fifth grade (and under) language and insults is still understandable and respectful?
  #75  
Old 12-04-2018, 06:48 PM
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I know I personally automatically change my vocabulary and construction based on what I hear the other person use. I even sometimes wind up copying their accent a bit--something I have to watch out for lest it come off as mockery.

To really test this, you need a controlled study where you have people try to explain things to different people, having the people respond in the same way to eliminate as many confounding factors as possible.

Using politicians and crowds is just too messy to draw conclusions. It may be useful as a preliminary study, but not really for drawing firm conclusions.

Also, it would be good if the study criteria were created and agreed upon by people of various political levels. Use well defined tests for political persuasion, and well defined methods of checking the language level.

All of this said, unconscious racism is a thing. It wouldn't surprise me or make me think poorly of people if this is true. It just becomes something to notice and work on.

The problem right now is that conservatism seems to reject at least the less obvious forms of racism as even being racism--to the point that now there's an alt-right that flat out embraces racism. I don't care if you have some racist tendencies as long as you work on it.

That's the difference.

Last edited by BigT; 12-04-2018 at 06:52 PM.
  #76  
Old 12-04-2018, 08:01 PM
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Say, did anyone read the whole study? I'll say up front I did not, but if anyone did, can you say how they determined someone was a liberal/conservative? Because without that info, quite frankly the discussion seems a bit pointless. For instance, I'm never quite sure if someone is pro-choice but also for the death penalty, does that make them a liberal or a conservative? If you are anti-federal-government spending on most levels, but support taxpayer funded health care for all, I'd ask the same question. Now, there are people that are undeniably liberal -- Ted Kennedy comes to mind -- and conservative -- I'll go with William F Buckley. You get the idea. But I would imagine that most people don't fit so easily into either category, so that when discussions come up like this, the only way to be sure they don't devolve into so much conjecture, you need to know exactly who the people are involved and have a very good idea of exactly where they fit on the political spectrum.

Here's another question about the study: the first part mentions a twenty-five year period of speeches that were analyzed. Do liberals/conservatives even believe the same things they did that many years ago? I know a few people who've changed their minds on gay marriage over the years, for example. And were the same speakers used throughout the study? Because if they weren't, that seems to me to be a major issue with it.

In any case, with all that being said, since I fully admit I haven't read the actual study, I'll just leave these as some thoughts that popped into my head.
  #77  
Old 12-04-2018, 09:14 PM
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Say, did anyone read the whole study? I'll say up front I did not, but if anyone did, can you say how they determined someone was a liberal/conservative?
The speeches were given by presidential candidates on the campaign trail.
  #78  
Old 12-04-2018, 09:19 PM
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The question is why liberals believe blacks deserve speech tailored for a lower level discourse and if it informs their political positions
That's not the question.
  #79  
Old 12-04-2018, 09:21 PM
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The speeches were given by presidential candidates on the campaign trail.
Missed my edit window. In the first page it says that in the first study they were on the campaign trail. In the other 4 studies their political alignment was 'self reported'.

If you do a quick (Ctrl-F) search for "reported", you can read a bit more about that.
  #80  
Old 12-05-2018, 08:33 AM
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The abstract of the report says -
Quote:
Conservatism indicators included
: self-reported political affiliation (liberal-conservative), Right-Wing Authoritarianism (values-based conservatism) and Social Dominance Orientation (hierarchy-based conservatism).
I can't tell from the study if they are assuming that self-identified conservative' is synonymous with Right-Wing Authoritarian and/or Socially Dominant.

Regards,
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  #81  
Old 12-05-2018, 08:49 AM
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I am not currently nor will I be interested in discussing what 'they' do about 'that other thing'

So anything on the study?
That was a comment on your relationship to science, not a comment on an unrelated issue.
  #82  
Old 12-05-2018, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Babale View Post
Did these politicians who allegedly speak so differently to whites and to blacks speak to control crowds formed of people equal in financial status, educational level, and all other aspects aside from race?

Or did these politicians speak to different mixed-race groups, some of whom were predominantly black, others were predominantly white, some of which were formed of mostly college-educated people, others mostly people with a high school diploma at best?

Unfortunately, because of the terrible ways that black people were historically treated in this country, African-Americans today are much less likely to be college educated, and much more likely to be poor. So if a politician is tailoring their speeches to the crowds they are speaking to (for example, avoiding words like "melancholy" when speaking in poverty-stricken areas, both to avoid leaving anyone out by using needlessly flowery language and to avoid seeming to "put on airs") then a study could show that these politicians use "lower level" words when speaking to African Americans, even if the race of their crowd never entered their mind when they were writing the speech.
Why would the race of the crowd not enter their minds? If they share the same view of black people as you do, knowing they are black means they should adjust their speech for a less-educated audience.
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Old 12-05-2018, 09:14 AM
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Aside from the replacement of “melancholy” with “sad”, which could be explained by whites not wanting to compete with blacks (still think that’s suspect but I will move on), we have white liberals replacing words like “agency” and “power” with “community”. This is not a difference of levels. This is a change in messaging meant to downplay the role of the individual in society.

This reinforces criticisms libertarians and conservatives have of the liberal political program. Why should black people not be concerned about agency? Because white liberals want to be the white knight who lifts black people up against evil whites. The black person is an atom ping-ponging around in the white man’s universe. Black people rise and fall because of what the white man does and they are helpless to overcome this fate. They must bond together in communion with good whites against the bad whites.
  #84  
Old 12-05-2018, 09:23 AM
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So Trump reaching for fifth grade (and under) language and insults is still understandable and respectful?
Does Trump change his speech to reach low-education people? I just thought he spoke like that all the time. I believe the consultants train all presidential candidates to do this to one degree or another. To answer your question though, no I believe it is condescending if anyone does it.
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Old 12-05-2018, 09:31 AM
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Aside from the replacement of “melancholy” with “sad”, which could be explained by whites not wanting to compete with blacks (still think that’s suspect but I will move on), we have white liberals replacing words like “agency” and “power” with “community”. This is not a difference of levels. This is a change in messaging meant to downplay the role of the individual in society.

This reinforces criticisms libertarians and conservatives have of the liberal political program. Why should black people not be concerned about agency? Because white liberals want to be the white knight who lifts black people up against evil whites. The black person is an atom ping-ponging around in the white man’s universe. Black people rise and fall because of what the white man does and they are helpless to overcome this fate. They must bond together in communion with good whites against the bad whites.
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Originally Posted by Trump
Sad...
  #86  
Old 12-05-2018, 09:54 AM
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Does Trump change his speech to reach low-education people? I just thought he spoke like that all the time.
You say that as if it helps Trump's conservatives. It does not. It makes them look even worse.

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I believe the consultants train all presidential candidates to do this to one degree or another. To answer your question though, no I believe it is condescending if anyone does it.
The opposite of “condescending” is “aggrandizing”. Again, what trump is doing is corrosive in the extreme.

I do see an implied, and rushed conclusion here from some conservatives: that liberals are condescending, as just a double bluff. This is to me an attempt to make liberals weary of doing what in reality is a good thing: to communicate better with diverse groups. That was something that many conservatives and centrists in this very message boards told us it was needed to reverse the political misfortunes of the liberals, progressives and Democratic party members.

Last edited by GIGObuster; 12-05-2018 at 09:56 AM.
  #87  
Old 12-05-2018, 09:57 AM
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Aside from the replacement of “melancholy” with “sad”, which could be explained by whites not wanting to compete with blacks (still think that’s suspect but I will move on), we have white liberals replacing words like “agency” and “power” with “community”. This is not a difference of levels. This is a change in messaging meant to downplay the role of the individual in society.

This reinforces criticisms libertarians and conservatives have of the liberal political program. Why should black people not be concerned about agency? Because white liberals want to be the white knight who lifts black people up against evil whites. The black person is an atom ping-ponging around in the white man’s universe. Black people rise and fall because of what the white man does and they are helpless to overcome this fate. They must bond together in communion with good whites against the bad whites.
Nonsense gibberish that you can interpret to fit your preconceived notions about the evil racist "white knight" liberals? What a surprise. But feel free to completely ignore language and dialect, when talking about language usage, just like the author in the article and the researchers he described.

Or maybe you could recognize that it's completely reasonable and appropriate for speakers to consider the dialect of their audience when crafting messaging?

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 12-05-2018 at 09:58 AM.
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Old 12-05-2018, 10:12 AM
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My Black friends and most of my Black co-workers are very educated, intelligent people. In fact, many have "Dr." in front of their names. I speak to them the same way I speak to any other intelligent people.

When I do dumb down my speech, it isn't race dependent. It is dependent upon my perception of an individual's education and intelligence. So, if I was trying to talk to a Black "gang banger" or a White Trump supporter, I would speak and act differently than I do when I talk to civilized, intelligent, educated people of any race.
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Old 12-05-2018, 10:24 AM
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That was a comment on your relationship to science, not a comment on an unrelated issue.
Ok, got it, nothing on the study.
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Old 12-05-2018, 02:16 PM
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Nonsense gibberish that you can interpret to fit your preconceived notions about the evil racist "white knight" liberals? What a surprise. But feel free to completely ignore language and dialect, when talking about language usage, just like the author in the article and the researchers he described.

Or maybe you could recognize that it's completely reasonable and appropriate for speakers to consider the dialect of their audience when crafting messaging?
Would you like to offer a reason liberals would stop talking about agency and power when addressing black folks and instead talk about community? Is this a matter of dialect as well?

Last edited by WillFarnaby; 12-05-2018 at 02:16 PM.
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Old 12-05-2018, 02:18 PM
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My Black friends and most of my Black co-workers are very educated, intelligent people. In fact, many have "Dr." in front of their names. I speak to them the same way I speak to any other intelligent people.

When I do dumb down my speech, it isn't race dependent. It is dependent upon my perception of an individual's education and intelligence. So, if I was trying to talk to a Black "gang banger" or a White Trump supporter, I would speak and act differently than I do when I talk to civilized, intelligent, educated people of any race.
Ok. Would you address someone differently based solely on a name, for example “Lakisha” vs “Emily”?

If you are a white liberal, the study says probably.
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Old 12-05-2018, 02:25 PM
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You say that as if it helps Trump's conservatives. It does not. It makes them look even worse.



The opposite of “condescending” is “aggrandizing”. Again, what trump is doing is corrosive in the extreme.

I do see an implied, and rushed conclusion here from some conservatives: that liberals are condescending, as just a double bluff. This is to me an attempt to make liberals weary of doing what in reality is a good thing: to communicate better with diverse groups. That was something that many conservatives and centrists in this very message boards told us it was needed to reverse the political misfortunes of the liberals, progressives and Democratic party members.
I have no interest in rehabilitating Trump “conservatives”. You asked about Trump, so I told you what I thought about his speech.

Being condescending is probably the least objectionable thing liberals do to sell their snake oil. If you have a problem, talk to the authors of the study and tell them their fiindings are counterproductive. I just recognize that the findings of the study tell us about why the liberals favor certain policies.
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Old 12-05-2018, 03:07 PM
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Would you like to offer a reason liberals would stop talking about agency and power when addressing black folks and instead talk about community? Is this a matter of dialect as well?
Considering the incredible incompetence the study appears to have demonstrated so far, I'm skeptical that this is significant at all. At most, it suggests that maybe a competent team that includes linguists with expertise in the dialects of the groups in question, as well as (perhaps) sociologists and other social scientists with applicable expertise, should craft a new study that takes relevant factors like dialects and culture into account.
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Old 12-05-2018, 03:08 PM
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I just recognize that the findings of the study tell us about why the liberals favor certain policies.
Your posts in this thread make it appear to me that you're just interested in yet another line of attack in which to (without basis, IMO) denigrate liberals.
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Old 12-05-2018, 04:33 PM
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Did these politicians who allegedly speak so differently to whites and to blacks speak to control crowds formed of people equal in financial status, educational level, and all other aspects aside from race?

Or did these politicians speak to different mixed-race groups, some of whom were predominantly black, others were predominantly white, some of which were formed of mostly college-educated people, others mostly people with a high school diploma at best?
Even more questions that cannot be answered, and even more reason to realize that end the end this study is pointless, meaningless, and not worth the pixels it's contributing to slowly burning out on my monitor.

Seriously. Can anyone relate anything in the study to someone they know? Can anyone use anything in it to draw conclusions about specific people? Of course not. One self identified extreme liberal may be someone else's left of center moderate. It is pointless through and through.

Last edited by Fiddle Peghead; 12-05-2018 at 04:33 PM. Reason: typo
  #96  
Old 12-05-2018, 07:23 PM
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The speeches were given by presidential candidates on the campaign trail.
According to the study, that's 74 speeches by a total of seven people, by my count:
Quote:
Presidential campaign speeches were obtained from a number of online archives that included speeches dating back to the 1992 presidential campaign. Analyses examined speeches delivered only by nominees who won their party’s primary election and moved on to run against the other party’s nominee for the presidency. Because the study seeks to examinea competence downshift demonstrated by White liberals, it did not include speeches delivered by a Black candidate (i.e., Barack Obama). The study also avoided potential gender effects by excluding speeches delivered by a female candidate (i.e., Hillary Clinton). It also avoided candidacy speeches by sitting presidents who ran for re-election. [...]

Certain presidential candidates were excluded from this analysis because they delivered few or no speeches directly to minority audiences or focused on minority issues. This includes Donald Trump Trump (elected 2016), who, according to our data collection efforts, delivered no speeches directly to or focusing on minority groups (a possible exception includes an August 2016 speech focused on immigration). This also excludes George W. Bush (elected 2000), whose pre-election remarks were largely unavailable online.Those that were available did not address minority audiences or minority-focused occasions or policies.
So the study is examining speeches by Bill Clinton, George H. W. Bush, Bob Dole, Al Gore, John Kerry, John McCain and Mitt Romney. I am highly skeptical that a meaningful inference about liberal/conservative differences in general can be drawn from such a small sample size.
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Old 12-05-2018, 08:06 PM
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Would you like to offer a reason liberals would stop talking about agency and power when addressing black folks and instead talk about community? Is this a matter of dialect as well?
It's called tailoring your speeches to reflect values important to your audience. Good leaders have been doing this for milleniums.
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Old 12-05-2018, 08:08 PM
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Ok. Would you address someone differently based solely on a name, for example “Lakisha” vs “Emily”?

If you are a white liberal, the study says probably.
Which would indicate white liberals are more likely to respect people and try to address the people the speak with in the manner that would be most comfortable to the listener.
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Old 12-05-2018, 09:06 PM
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Considering the incredible incompetence the study appears to have demonstrated so far, I'm skeptical that this is significant at all. At most, it suggests that maybe a competent team that includes linguists with expertise in the dialects of the groups in question, as well as (perhaps) sociologists and other social scientists with applicable expertise, should craft a new study that takes relevant factors like dialects and culture into account.
Quote:
Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
Your posts in this thread make it appear to me that you're just interested in yet another line of attack in which to (without basis, IMO) denigrate liberals.
Ok thanks for your input.

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Originally Posted by ZPG Zealot View Post
It's called tailoring your speeches to reflect values important to your audience. Good leaders have been doing this for milleniums.
Why would white liberals think agency is not valuable to black folks? It seems like an empowering concept. The black folks I’m familiar with value empowerment and agency just as much if not moreso than white folks. Maybe white liberals do not share this experience and do not have data to support such a claim. Unfortunate. Maybe they would adopt better policies if they did.

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Originally Posted by ZPG Zealot View Post
Which would indicate white liberals are more likely to respect people and try to address the people the speak with in the manner that would be most comfortable to the listener.
Why do they think white people would be more comfortable with “melancholy” while black people would be more comfortable with “sad”?

Last edited by WillFarnaby; 12-05-2018 at 09:10 PM.
  #100  
Old 12-05-2018, 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
Why do they think white people would be more comfortable with “melancholy” while black people would be more comfortable with “sad”?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trump
Very Sad!
So. yeah, this is a case where some conservatives do not mind about how deep they keep digging...

Last edited by GIGObuster; 12-05-2018 at 10:22 PM.
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