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  #101  
Old 12-06-2018, 04:28 AM
clairobscur clairobscur is offline
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Originally Posted by BigT View Post
False accusations are not a significant problem. They don't happen all that often
You don't know that. As pointed out by a previous poster, people almost always cite the same figures, whose reliability is very dubious, and it's quite obvious to me that they pick this one because it supports their narrative by virtue of advancing an extremely low number, even though nobody can figure out how they even determined that an accusation was true or false.

What percentage of accusations are false is plainly unknown, and until we invent an actual lie detector, unknowable. Years ago, I saw a documentary about a sex crime police unit, and an officer guesstimated that 1/3 of rape accusations were false. I'm pretty sure you'll think that the reason was that she didn't believe women who were actually raped, but once again that's just a preconceived notion on your part, and you don't know that. And this police officer is probably as able to determine which accusation are true or false as the authors of a study that determine it's rather 2%. The only thing you can possibly know, in the best case scenario, is how many accusations are *proven* false, which is likely to be only a fraction of the false ones since...how would you prove it, in most cases?


Believing that very few accusation of rape are false is an act of faith, especially knowing human nature. Plenty of people will lie for pretty much any reason : to obtain an advantage, for money, for revenge, to attract interest, to make people take care of them, to cover up something, because they're psychologically imbalanced....In the same documentary I mentioned earlier, the two examples of false accusation that were shown were motivated one by some minor domestic dispute, the other by a minimal amount of money, say € 50, not reimbursed.

Assuming that pretty much everybody will shy away from a false accusation of sexual harassment/assault seems not just unproven but an absurd assumption to me. Let's see : in 2016, there were apparently about 90 000 reported rapes in the USA. 2% of false report would be 1 800 women (for the sake of it, I'm assuming all reports are from women), or about or 0.001% of the female population. You think that it's not credible that more than 0.001% of women would bring false accusations? That in a 200 000 pop. city, you couldn't find even *one* single woman willing to bring a false accusation for whatever purpose? I'm rather surprised that real accusations aren't drowned in an ocean of false ones.

I indeed don't believe that false accusations are as rare as you think. I don't even believe that most people quoting these figures believe them themselves unless they've been raised in a cave on Mars long away from any actual human being, or are as indoctrinated as a Stalinist in 1955. There's a purpose for believing victims : when you have to deal with them personally. Otherwise, when discussing about what actually happens, how to deal with it, what principles should be followed, you have to take into account the fact that an accusation isn't necessarily true. To deal with the fact that regardless of which side you pick, you've have a good chance to be wrong, and the consequences of being wrong are in neither case trivial. As bad as not believing a victim might be, assuming guilt in a case like rape has devastating consequences on the accused in our societies, even if no actual criminal sentence result from it. Pretending that false accusations are so extraordinarily rare that you can just ignore this possibility is just a way to avoid addressing this issue, and to summarily dismiss arguments that could make your position less easy to defend.
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  #102  
Old 12-06-2018, 06:59 AM
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I don’t think the #METOO backlash in the workplace is primarily based on fear of false accusations.

There are a lot of jobs where people interact with people other than coworkers, bosses and subordinates. These people are called customers and clients. And sometimes a single customer or client can play an outsized role in the profitability of a business. And these clients and customers know this. Especially if they have a job where they have a lot of purchasing power - the ad buyer for a major media outlet, the guy that purchases the furnishings for major hotel chain, the guy that buys the studio equipment for a movie studio or TV network.

And these people are often jerks about this power. Some of them are straight up sexual harassers but most of them are just jerks to all their vendors. And if you are a commissioned salesperson handling these accounts, you are expected to deal with it. If a particular situation with a client gets really intolerable you can sometimes hand over the account to another salesperson but that hits you in the pocket. And it doesn’t look good if you do that too often.

And while companies will make a show of cleaning their own house and enacting all sorts of policies, you can’t force those policies on the client. And realistically, if you have invested everything you own to build a company that sells mattresses to hotel chains, you aren’t going to drop Hilton as a client because their purchaser made a suggestive remark to your salesperson. But you still know your employees shouldn’t have to put up with the that and you have to take their complaints seriously. So many companies take the easy way out and don’t hire females for those jobs.

I’ve dealt with these issues throughout my entire career. Only answer I see is to change the culture and the world so people treat each other better, but we seem to be moving in the opposite direction.

Last edited by Ann Hedonia; 12-06-2018 at 07:01 AM.
  #103  
Old 12-06-2018, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Ann Hedonia View Post
I don’t think the #METOO backlash in the workplace is primarily based on fear of false accusations.
If it exists.

Unemployment is at a historic low. That would be difficult if businesses were being wary of hiring women.

No one has yet demonstrated that the Bloomberg article is anything more than fearmongering.
  #104  
Old 12-06-2018, 08:03 AM
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In fairness, if one reads the Bloomberg article, it's not so much fearmongering as reporting on fearmongering.
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  #105  
Old 12-06-2018, 08:12 AM
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In fairness, if one reads the Bloomberg article, it's not so much fearmongering as reporting on fearmongering.
Bloomberg article is based on the fears (justified or not) of Wall Street Executives, literally the most privileged workers in the fucking planet.

So forgive me if I have little time for extremely well paid executives worried that their behaviour will be misrepresented or high flyers fearful of losing an advantage in the cut throat competition that is the boardroom.
  #106  
Old 12-06-2018, 08:24 AM
JRDelirious JRDelirious is online now
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Originally Posted by Ann Hedonia View Post
I don’t think the #METOO backlash in the workplace is primarily based on fear of false accusations.

There are a lot of jobs where people interact with people other than coworkers, bosses and subordinates. These people are called customers and clients. And sometimes a single customer or client can play an outsized role in the profitability of a business. And these clients and customers know this. Especially if they have a job where they have a lot of purchasing power - the ad buyer for a major media outlet, the guy that purchases the furnishings for major hotel chain, the guy that buys the studio equipment for a movie studio or TV network.

And these people are often jerks about this power. Some of them are straight up sexual harassers but most of them are just jerks to all their vendors. And if you are a commissioned salesperson handling these accounts, you are expected to deal with it. If a particular situation with a client gets really intolerable you can sometimes hand over the account to another salesperson but that hits you in the pocket. And it doesn’t look good if you do that too often.

And while companies will make a show of cleaning their own house and enacting all sorts of policies, you can’t force those policies on the client. And realistically, if you have invested everything you own to build a company that sells mattresses to hotel chains, you aren’t going to drop Hilton as a client because their purchaser made a suggestive remark to your salesperson. But you still know your employees shouldn’t have to put up with the that and you have to take their complaints seriously. So many companies take the easy way out and don’t hire females for those jobs.

I’ve dealt with these issues throughout my entire career. Only answer I see is to change the culture and the world so people treat each other better, but we seem to be moving in the opposite direction.
Hear, hear. In that sort of business, and in Wall Street, the expectation is that if the Writer of Big Checks or the representative thereof is an ass you just have to brush/laugh it off, "take it" as the way the world is, and if anything grow yourself into a hard-driving Always Be Closing cut-throat type for whom the important thing is the bottom line and scoring wins and who cares whose dignity got injured including your own, in the hope of one day being the guy whose prickishness people have to tolerate. If you are a big/valuable enough producer and the particular client is not that critical, you may be given the leeway to be a bit of a reciprocal prick... but then that, coming from females, is called bitchiness.

Last edited by JRDelirious; 12-06-2018 at 08:26 AM.
  #107  
Old 12-06-2018, 08:46 AM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is offline
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Everyone should be scared of your and others here contempt and dismissal of due process in favor of the court of public opinion (because when has that ever gone wrong?).
I suppose that we could also be scared of deliberate misunderstandings of our posts, complete with unjustifiable conclusions, as well, if this post of yours is any indication.

If you think that people in general have as poor an ability to respond to the actual facts and words that people post as this post of your indicates, then you have a reason to be afraid, you think that people will treat your words and actions as you treat the words and actions of others.

If you can somehow get "contempt and dismissal of due process in favor of the court of public opinion" from simply allowing people to speak, then I can see how you may think that others will get sexual harassment from an innocuous action.

Fortunately, not everyone out there is as desperate to score points, and so not everyone has as motivated interpretations as this post of yours indicates.

I have no contempt or dismissal of due process, I just question the contempt and dismissal of the experiences of women that you defend here.

What is it about not telling women to shut the hell up, as we have done for centuries (and longer) when it comes to sexual assault and harassment, that scares you so much?

That is all this is, is giving women a chance to speak up, rather than to shut them down. The only reason to be against that is if you have contempt and dismissal of women.
  #108  
Old 12-06-2018, 08:58 AM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is offline
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Originally Posted by Whack-a-Mole View Post
If the central tenet of #MeToo is "believe women" then, by default, you are not believing the men if they deny the accusation.
This is about as on the level as those who criticize the Black Lives Matter movement by claiming that it is saying "only" black lives matter.

For most of history, the default was "Don't believe the women". Saying "believe women" is not the same as saying "don't believe men", it is saying all it is saying, which is "believe women." It does scare me that you have such a contempt and dismissal for the basic concept of believing women.
  #109  
Old 12-06-2018, 09:12 AM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is offline
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Years ago, I saw a documentary about a sex crime police unit, and an officer guesstimated that 1/3 of rape accusations were false.
Excellent cite.
  #110  
Old 12-06-2018, 09:12 AM
Damuri Ajashi Damuri Ajashi is offline
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The implications aren't surprising nor should they be unexpected. On balance, I think the #metoo movement is a tremendous net gain for society as a whole. But it shouldn't be surprising that in some instances it is a negative for certain people at certain times.

Pretend that you're a hiring manager, and a statistical analysis shows that you perform better at choosing candidates than all of your peers. Say, 70% turn out to be good hires and 30% need to be terminated. If there are two equal candidates, except A is easy to terminate if you have to, and B is difficult to terminate if you have to, doesn't it make sense to favor candidate A? Your all in costs are lower with A.

This calculus applies to all protected classes actually. From a social justice point of view it shouldn't make a difference, but from a purely dollars and cents point of view, it does.
I agree. The #metoo movement is a good thing. I don't know why its not enough that #metoo is 90% goo and 10% side effects. The cancer of sexism in places like wall street is particularly metastatized and chemotherapy has some side effects. Hopefully we will get to the point where the chemotherapy is no longer needed ad we have the wisdom to stop using it.
  #111  
Old 12-06-2018, 09:30 AM
Damuri Ajashi Damuri Ajashi is offline
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This idea is trotted out a lot, but it doesn't seem to have much behind it. Just a lot of repetition, and repetition leads people to believe there is a big problem. When, in fact, the problem goes the other way, of rapists getting off scot-free.
This is our justice system. it requires a fairly high threshold for conviction. Would you have it any other way?

Quote:
So you have something that rarely happens versus something that happens to 80% of women. And your worse consequences with false accusations is nowhere near as bad as just a normal rape or sexual assault situation.
Wait. 80% of women get raped?

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Any rational risk scenario would tell you that believing women is the better option.
Or we could use the criminal justice system.

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WTF are you talking about? We all still 100% support investigations and trials. We regularly advocate for investigations rather than something being swept under the rug. So we do in fact have a process for determining the truth.
No, we don't. We have a process for determining guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.
  #112  
Old 12-06-2018, 09:34 AM
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Excellent cite.
, judging by conversations I've had with convicted rapists, 100% of accusations are false.
  #113  
Old 12-06-2018, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by clairobscur View Post
Wasn't that (better to have 100 guilty men free than one innocent man unjustly punished) a common adage until very recently?
It’s gone out with other quaint things, like the “things have degrees”, and chance to defend oneself.
  #114  
Old 12-06-2018, 09:41 AM
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#metoo is 90% goo
This is a typo, right?
  #115  
Old 12-06-2018, 10:02 AM
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Let's face it. As a man chances are at some time in your working life, you WILL be accused by a woman of sexual harassment. I dont care how careful you are, it WILL happen.
  #116  
Old 12-06-2018, 10:07 AM
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Forget rape accusations. I know a guy in hot water for saying a female looked good in a short skirt.
  #117  
Old 12-06-2018, 10:11 AM
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Let's face it. As a man chances are at some time in your working life, you WILL be accused by a woman of sexual harassment. I dont care how careful you are, it WILL happen.
This is not true. Of all of the men I've known in my life including me, no accusations have ever been made. Either my circle of family and friends is extremely lucky, or alternatively, we aren't creeps that take liberties with women we work with. I'm going with option B.

It's not hard to not harass women. This is only a scary issue to men that have engaged in questionable behaviors in the past and are now worried that maybe some of the creepy stuff they've done may come to light.
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  #118  
Old 12-06-2018, 10:13 AM
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Forget rape accusations. I know a guy in hot water for saying a female looked good in a short skirt.
Good! Hopefully he's learned not to make inappropriate comments about coworkers' appearances (as well as using inappropriate terms like "female" to refer to women). Maybe a sharp lesson, but sharp lessons can be very useful.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 12-06-2018 at 10:15 AM.
  #119  
Old 12-06-2018, 10:16 AM
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Forget rape accusations. I know a guy in hot water for saying a female looked good in a short skirt.
Was the lady modelling a brand of short skirts? Cause, otherwise yeah, that’s inappropriate.
  #120  
Old 12-06-2018, 10:20 AM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is offline
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Let's face it. As a man chances are at some time in your working life, you WILL be accused by a woman of sexual harassment. I dont care how careful you are, it WILL happen.
This is a perspective to be had by people who have committed sexual harassment. They are rightly concerned about being accused of what they have done.

They don't think it is such a big deal to treat other people like objects, and get upset when they are called on it.

Case in point:

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Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
Forget rape accusations. I know a guy in hot water for saying a female looked good in a short skirt.
That really is a textbook example of sexual harassment. It may not be "that big a deal" to the guy who is treating women as objects that exist only for his pleasure, but it is a big deal to the human being that is denigrated and reduced to a pair of legs and their merit is based on how much of that leg they show.
  #121  
Old 12-06-2018, 10:26 AM
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Forget rape accusations. I know a guy in hot water for saying a female looked good in a short skirt.
Dude. Are you serious?

Do you really think it's okay to say that to a co-worker?
  #122  
Old 12-06-2018, 10:31 AM
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Forget rape accusations. I know a guy in hot water for saying a female looked good in a short skirt.


Good on whomever is taking crap like that seriously. Gives me hope that things are getting better.
  #123  
Old 12-06-2018, 10:33 AM
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Forget rape accusations. I know a guy in hot water for saying a female looked good in a short skirt.
Although he might think there was nothing wrong with it, that's just because he doesn't realize he's making a sexist comment. He likely only complements women and not men. He likely has never made a similar comment about a guy looking good in jeans. He may also do similar things like complement a woman coworker's hair, makeup, top, etc. Unless he is truly in the habit of complementing both men and women on their appearance, his "complements" likely have a sexual undertone.
  #124  
Old 12-06-2018, 11:09 AM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is offline
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Although he might think there was nothing wrong with it, that's just because he doesn't realize he's making a sexist comment. He likely only complements women and not men. He likely has never made a similar comment about a guy looking good in jeans. He may also do similar things like complement a woman coworker's hair, makeup, top, etc. Unless he is truly in the habit of complementing both men and women on their appearance, his "complements" likely have a sexual undertone.
And if he is in the habit of completing both men and women on their appearance, he should cut it out.

The only discussion about appearance that should be acceptable in the workplace would be if you are not meeting dress code regulations.
  #125  
Old 12-06-2018, 11:14 AM
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Forget rape accusations. I know a guy in hot water for saying a female looked good in a short skirt.
Specificity might be helpful here. Did he say, "you like nice today." And she happened to be wearing a short skirt? Or did he say, "that female looks good in her short skirt."
  #126  
Old 12-06-2018, 11:37 AM
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It is also curious why you will not address what is considered by many legal experts to be a real problem and a serious abrogation of due process as regards men and accusations of sexual harassment?
I'm not "addressing" it separately because I've got no objection to your criticisms of it, except for your misleading attempt to label it "#MeToo" when it is actually a specific phenomenon regarding campus codes of conduct responding to a specific Federal initiative about campus sexual assault beginning in the first term of the Obama administration.

You don't get to lump all such earlier phenomena under the label "#MeToo" just because they contributed to the cultural zeitgeist that gave rise to #MeToo. Likewise, you couldn't lump, say, the 1960s Civil Rights movement or the subsequent Black Power movement under the label "Black Lives Matter" just because they contributed to its inspiration.

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Originally Posted by Whack-a-Mole
I 100% agree if an accusation is made it should be taken seriously and investigated.
And if such an accuser is accused (credibly by somebody involved in the case, I mean, not just some random internet commenter or such) of making a false accusation, then that accusation should be taken seriously and investigated too. Nobody here is disagreeing with any of these basic principles.

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Originally Posted by Whack-a-Mole
Because we both know no one here would actually say, "I think due process is dumb and we should not do it," and we both know that.
Yes, we both know that no one here would actually say that, and the reason is that no one here actually believes that. I really don't see why this is so hard for you to grasp.

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Originally Posted by Whack-a-Mole
But people here are content with #MeToo as it is which, I have already showed, runs roughshod over due process.
You have still entirely failed to provide any supporting evidence for this claim, except by misleadingly twisting the application of the term #MeToo to include those earlier campus-conduct policies discussed above. (And you're also failing to note that even those questionable policies are being subjected to strong scrutiny and criticism from many academics themselves as well as being frequently challenged in court, so they are hardly managing to "run roughshod over due process" in the uncontrolled way you imply.)

Nor have you shown any evidence that being "content with #MeToo as it is", for any of the posters in this thread, actually means being willing to sacrifice due process or the civil liberties of the accused. So I think it's high time you stopped repeating that unsubstantiated claim.
  #127  
Old 12-06-2018, 11:50 AM
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It’s gone out with other quaint things, like the “things have degrees”, and chance to defend oneself.


You mean how Aziz Ansari took a few lumps in the public eye and got right back on the horse, whereas Kevin Spacy will probably never work in Hollywood again and Bill Cosby will die in prison? And how Neil DeGrasse Tyson responded to his accusers elegantly and got a generally good reception (while simultaneously rejecting the claims made)? This is the silly strawman version of #MeToo people were afraid of in the wake of that Babe article. The version that never actually happened. If anything, we've been entirely too lenient, as evidenced by Louis CK's return.

Again, the legal standard is not the standard we apply in our day to day lives. It's not the standard we apply when judging others. It's not the standard we apply to employees or expect our bosses or potential employers to apply to us. It is the standard we demand before allowing the government to strip us of our fundamental human rights, potentially for years at a time. Demanding we apply it to claims of sexual assault in the public sphere, when all that's at stake is someone's reputation, is an absurd isolated demand for rigor that ensures that abusers, harassers, and rapists will face no social social repercussions for their actions in addition to no legal repercussions.

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Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
Let's face it. As a man chances are at some time in your working life, you WILL be accused by a woman of sexual harassment. I dont care how careful you are, it WILL happen.
I think that this might be more of a "you" problem.

EDIT: Oh wow I made this post before seeing your comment about the short skirt. Totally vindicated. It's DEFINITELY a "you" problem - if you can't spot anything wrong with that, then it's no surprise you'll get in hot water. Go take a seminar on this shit or something, jeez. ��
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Last edited by Budget Player Cadet; 12-06-2018 at 11:54 AM.
  #128  
Old 12-06-2018, 11:54 AM
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You mean how Aziz Ansari took a few lumps in the public eye and got right back on the horse, whereas Kevin Spacy will probably never work in Hollywood again and Bill Cosby will die in prison? And how Neil DeGrasse Tyson responded to his accusers elegantly and got a generally good reception (while simultaneously rejecting the claims made)? This is the silly strawman version of #MeToo people were afraid of in the wake of that Babe article. The version that never actually happened. If anything, we've been entirely too lenient, as evidenced by Louis CK's return.

Again, the legal standard is not the standard we apply in our day to day lives. It's not the standard we apply when judging others. It's not the standard we apply to employees or expect our bosses or potential employers to apply to us. It is the standard we demand before allowing the government to strip us of our fundamental human rights, potentially for years at a time. Demanding we apply it to claims of sexual assault in the public sphere, when all that's at stake is someone's reputation, is an absurd isolated demand for rigor that ensures that abusers, harassers, and rapists will face no social social repercussions for their actions in addition to no legal repercussions.



I think that this might be more of a "you" problem.

EDIT: Oh wow I made this post before seeing your comment about the short skirt. Totally vindicated. It's DEFINITELY a "you" problem - if you can't spot anything wrong with that, then it's no surprise you'll get in hot water. Go take a seminar on this shit or something, jeez. ��
It’s not absurd to reject the idea of mob justice.
  #129  
Old 12-06-2018, 12:14 PM
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It’s not absurd to reject the idea of mob justice.
Define "mob justice". Because I feel like you're either strawmanning or off topic here.
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  #130  
Old 12-06-2018, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
Let's face it. As a man chances are at some time in your working life, you WILL be accused by a woman of sexual harassment. I dont care how careful you are, it WILL happen.
Never happened to me in 35 years of work. Never heard of it happening to other men, and I was a manager.
It's easy to keep it from happening - just don't be a sexist pig. Like the guy who thought it fit to comment on the skirt.
  #131  
Old 12-06-2018, 12:24 PM
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If burglary were treated the way rape used to be (and maybe still is) when someone called the police to report it they'd get asked if it really happened or if they had just given the stuff to the reputed robber - consensual burglary. Half the time the police wouldn't bother to come, and if they did would either lose the evidence (the burglary kit) or charge the victim for collecting it.
And certain people would be very worried about the rights of burglars and drag out the one or two cases of people being falsely accused.
  #132  
Old 12-06-2018, 12:48 PM
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Aside from the usual suspects slinging their sexist bullshit in this thread, here's the one thing I really don't get about the overwrought blacklash against #MeToo.

In anyone's job, one could be unjustly accused of misconduct in many different ways. Sexual harassment, racial discrimination, theft, fraud, deceit, malingering, having a bad attitude, spilling secrets/gossiping, being an evil sorcerer, or many other things. In the general scope of things, I don't see that sexual harassment is actually treated more severely than other types of accusations - if anything, in our society, it has been brushed under the rug far more than other types of misconduct. For example, if A is accused of sexual harassment, that's far more likely to be swept under the rug than if A is accused of giving trade secrets to a competitor, just to pick one example.

So why are so many men losing their fucking minds when it comes to sexual harassment and women, but they aren't going nuts about how they might be accused of pilfering or grabbing another dude's balls or whatever?

I'll just go ahead and answer my own question: because I think the men overreacting to the notion they they should treat everyone in the workplace equally actually hold deep-seated prejudices, in this case, that they believe that a lot of women are lying bitches that are a threat to them. It's just sexism, and that's the problem.
  #133  
Old 12-06-2018, 12:51 PM
Ravenman Ravenman is offline
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Forget rape accusations. I know a guy in hot water for saying a female looked good in a short skirt.
What the fuck is wrong with... him? And how on earth do you think his punishment is unfair? Jesus Christ.
  #134  
Old 12-06-2018, 01:19 PM
Railer13 Railer13 is online now
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Let's face it. As a man chances are at some time in your working life, you WILL be accused by a woman of sexual harassment. I dont care how careful you are, it WILL happen.
I'll add to the litany of responses to this ridiculous claim.

I recently retired after 40+ years of working in the white-collar world, the last 17 of which was spent in management. I was never accused by a woman of sexual harassment. And all but one of the men with whom I worked were not accused, either.

The one example I remember of a guy being accused of such was many years ago, when a co-worker somehow climbed atop the copier with his pants down and took a picture of his junk, and then gave said picture to another co-worker, who was a single woman. She immediately reported it to her supervisor and the offender was fired the same day. I often wondered how he explained to his wife how he lost his job.
  #135  
Old 12-06-2018, 01:23 PM
EscAlaMike EscAlaMike is offline
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The one example I remember of a guy being accused of such was many years ago, when a co-worker somehow climbed atop the copier with his pants down and took a picture of his junk, and then gave said picture to another co-worker, who was a single woman.


Why do so many men persist in sending pictures of their junk to women? Has it ever brought them success (sexually)?

Is there a single woman on the face of the earth who would be aroused or attracted by that?
  #136  
Old 12-06-2018, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Budget Player Cadet View Post
Define "mob justice". Because I feel like you're either strawmanning or off topic here.
"Social repercussions" over an allegation when "social repercussions" can include loss of job or being expelled from school because of how potentially damaging a "viral" story can go is one form of commonly used mob justice. Of course and in particular on this website any definition of any term will be far from universally inclusive or accepted.
  #137  
Old 12-06-2018, 01:33 PM
BrainFireBob BrainFireBob is offline
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I think the idea is that many men in the workplace think that a substantial number of #MeToo accusations are false and hence feel the need to protect themselves from false accusations by eliminating situations where false accusations could arise. If a man thinks that as long as he doesn't harass women, he won't be accused of harassment, then he wouldn't feel the need to go far out of his way to avoid women - he'd just continue interacting with them, non-harassingly, as before. But if a man thinks he could be accused even if he's done nothing wrong, then he will feel the need to take far-reaching precautions.
No, it's the attendant "believe all women" meme, not that a substantial number of accusations are false.

It's that accusations are to instantly be treated as true or as evidence of a crime, regardless of male behavior. Since women span the same gamut of law-abiding to criminal that men do as a gestalt group, even a man who has done absolutely nothing can face a false accusation. This happened to a college student in the last few years- his face was plastered all over campus as something like "Rapist of the Month"; he was essentially randomly pictured (no rape, he was in fact a virgin) to "bring attention to the problem" by an activist group. While straightened out formally, the social impacts can and do last.

Is it likely that any individual woman will make a false accusation, or an accusation based on incomplete context? Absolutely not. Are there women who will? A small minority. Is there any way of identifying who might wield this power arbitrarily? Nope, not unless they've developed such a pattern and documentation to this extent is provable (Tawana Bradley's escalating accusations against men who poked holes in her story, her identifying as rapists the men it was most convenient for her to have raped her in an escalating story is such a pattern). Solution: Avoid the situation, eliminate the risk.
  #138  
Old 12-06-2018, 01:34 PM
BrainFireBob BrainFireBob is offline
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Originally Posted by EscAlaMike View Post


Why do so many men persist in sending pictures of their junk to women? Has it ever brought them success (sexually)?

Is there a single woman on the face of the earth who would be aroused or attracted by that?

Well, my wife responded with her own pictures. Granted, we were long distance and super-serious at the time, and had an established sexual relationship, and were mid-sexting, but you did ask.
  #139  
Old 12-06-2018, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by octopus View Post
"Social repercussions" over an allegation when "social repercussions" can include loss of job or being expelled from school because of how potentially damaging a "viral" story can go is one form of commonly used mob justice. Of course and in particular on this website any definition of any term will be far from universally inclusive or accepted.
What are you actually objecting to? What am I, as a supporter of #MeToo, doing wrong? Or what are other #MeToo supporters doing wrong, in your opinion?
  #140  
Old 12-06-2018, 01:36 PM
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Knowing someone who was demonstrably accused falsely of sexual harassment "cancels" one hundred real ones.
A guy I know was stalked by a co-workers, whom he'd dated, and she kept it on and on. The HR people simply said "don't respond, don't do anything".
She was fired, but his position was so compromised that he went on to another job. When you hear that story, guys think of every instance where even the slightest possibility of a misunderstanding has happened and our ball shrivel.

I can't even remotely think of sexually harassing women and I've always worked of majority female jobs, but still I can see that I've taken a couple of "steps back" and treat women, professionally yet more distant and less care-free than with men, even with women with whom I'm 99.99999% sure they'd never even think of a false accusation

Yup, I'm a fucking sexist pig, or somethin'.
"Believe women" means "don't believe men" even if there is only the remotest of chances of the accusation being true. I don't care how few the false accusations are, if it's against me it's 100%.
  #141  
Old 12-06-2018, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Ají de Gallina View Post
Knowing someone who was demonstrably accused falsely of sexual harassment "cancels" one hundred real ones.
A guy I know was stalked by a co-workers, whom he'd dated, and she kept it on and on. The HR people simply said "don't respond, don't do anything".
She was fired, but his position was so compromised that he went on to another job. When you hear that story, guys think of every instance where even the slightest possibility of a misunderstanding has happened and our ball shrivel.

I can't even remotely think of sexually harassing women and I've always worked of majority female jobs, but still I can see that I've taken a couple of "steps back" and treat women, professionally yet more distant and less care-free than with men, even with women with whom I'm 99.99999% sure they'd never even think of a false accusation

Yup, I'm a fucking sexist pig, or somethin'.
"Believe women" means "don't believe men" even if there is only the remotest of chances of the accusation being true. I don't care how few the false accusations are, if it's against me it's 100%.
Can't quite figure out what your point is here, aside from something about your balls shriveling (and hey, speak for yourself -- I'm aware of the rare but non-zero existence of false accusations, and mine feel just fine).
  #142  
Old 12-06-2018, 01:48 PM
BrainFireBob BrainFireBob is offline
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Was the lady modelling a brand of short skirts? Cause, otherwise yeah, that’s inappropriate.
"You look particularly nice today!"

"That's a nice new outfit. Very professional"

If the outfit includes a short skirt, there you go. You don't have to have commented inappropriately, merely noticing it as new can be enough.

So never compliment anyone ever. Or say anything nice to anyone. Unless it's a man. Yeah, great way to eliminate sexism and make people comfortable in the work place.
  #143  
Old 12-06-2018, 01:52 PM
BrainFireBob BrainFireBob is offline
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If burglary were treated the way rape used to be (and maybe still is) when someone called the police to report it they'd get asked if it really happened or if they had just given the stuff to the reputed robber - consensual burglary. Half the time the police wouldn't bother to come, and if they did would either lose the evidence (the burglary kit) or charge the victim for collecting it.
And certain people would be very worried about the rights of burglars and drag out the one or two cases of people being falsely accused.
Factually incorrect.

"What was stolen?"
"How did they get in?"

If I came to my home, and nothing was different, and everything was properly locked, and I called the police about a burglary I was sure happened, how do you think they'd find out I was making it up?

Nothing was stolen and no sign of forced entry. First things they check.
  #144  
Old 12-06-2018, 01:59 PM
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"You look particularly nice today!"
Would you say this to a man in your office?
  #145  
Old 12-06-2018, 02:00 PM
filmore filmore is offline
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A realistic example might be something like this. A company hires a bunch of college new hires. A 50-year-old male employee is waiting for an elevator when one of the new hires comes up. The older employee introduces himself, asks how the new hire is enjoying the company, what they are working on, if they found an apartment, what they do for fun in the city, etc. There are a few ways this conversation can be construed:

1. Idle chit-chat to make the new hire feel welcome and get to learn more about them
2. The older employee is chatting to flirt with the new hire
3. The older employee is just making idle small talk, but the new hire interprets it as flirting

If the new hire is a man, then likely both people take it as idle chit-chat. But if the new hire is a woman, then it's not so clear. The woman has to be evaluating the conversation to determine if the older employee is trying to flirt. And even if the older employee is just making chit-chat, there's always the possibility the new hire could misconstrue it as flirting.

Even if the older employee is just trying to be welcoming, he may not instigate conversation out of respect. Unless they will be working together, there may not be any need for them to actually talk to each other. He may not want to put her in the uncomfortable position of trying to decide if he's a nice coworker or creepy older stalker.

There's also more of a burden on the older employee to be cautious in what he says. He should be conscious if asking about things like what part of town she lives in or what she does for fun could be construed as being creepy.

While I think #MeToo is good and important, and it's brought many issues of harassment to the forefront, it has also increased the penalties and reduced the amount of consideration given to the accused. If the new hire goes to HR and says the older employee was being creepy, there will be quick consequences to the older employee. Even if that's 100% because the new hire misinterpreted the older employee's idle chit-chat, that won't matter a whole lot. HR has to take swift and decisive action in the #MeToo era. The safest thing for a man is not to interact unless necessary, but the consequence is that it's harder for male and female coworkers to get to know each other.
  #146  
Old 12-06-2018, 02:11 PM
BrainFireBob BrainFireBob is offline
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Would you say this to a man in your office?
I have. I typically follow it with "what's the occasion?"

Most times it's a vendor/HQ visit. A couple of times have been anniversaries. Once was a court appearance over a traffic ticket. Two times were job interviews (internal). A few times I think were lunchtime offsite interviews they didn't want to acknowledge.

EDIT: I forgot, two weeks ago it was "Sears going-out-of-business sale. This is a $250 suit I got for $80! I look SHARP today"

Last edited by BrainFireBob; 12-06-2018 at 02:13 PM. Reason: Recalled another
  #147  
Old 12-06-2018, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by filmore View Post
A realistic example might be something like this. A company hires a bunch of college new hires. A 50-year-old male employee is waiting for an elevator when one of the new hires comes up. The older employee introduces himself, asks how the new hire is enjoying the company, what they are working on, if they found an apartment, what they do for fun in the city, etc. There are a few ways this conversation can be construed:

1. Idle chit-chat to make the new hire feel welcome and get to learn more about them
2. The older employee is chatting to flirt with the new hire
3. The older employee is just making idle small talk, but the new hire interprets it as flirting

If the new hire is a man, then likely both people take it as idle chit-chat. But if the new hire is a woman, then it's not so clear. The woman has to be evaluating the conversation to determine if the older employee is trying to flirt. And even if the older employee is just making chit-chat, there's always the possibility the new hire could misconstrue it as flirting.

Even if the older employee is just trying to be welcoming, he may not instigate conversation out of respect. Unless they will be working together, there may not be any need for them to actually talk to each other. He may not want to put her in the uncomfortable position of trying to decide if he's a nice coworker or creepy older stalker.

There's also more of a burden on the older employee to be cautious in what he says. He should be conscious if asking about things like what part of town she lives in or what she does for fun could be construed as being creepy.
Assuming this is all true... so what?

Quote:
While I think #MeToo is good and important, and it's brought many issues of harassment to the forefront, it has also increased the penalties and reduced the amount of consideration given to the accused. If the new hire goes to HR and says the older employee was being creepy, there will be quick consequences to the older employee. Even if that's 100% because the new hire misinterpreted the older employee's idle chit-chat, that won't matter a whole lot. HR has to take swift and decisive action in the #MeToo era. The safest thing for a man is not to interact unless necessary, but the consequence is that it's harder for male and female coworkers to get to know each other.
By what basis do you believe a new hire would be likely (even only a tiny bit likely) to make a report to HR based on questions about "how the new hire is enjoying the company, what they are working on, if they found an apartment, what they do for fun in the city, etc."? That sounds ridiculous. Maybe it's happened once or twice before on the planet Earth... but it's also happened before that someone shat in the sink at work. Not sure if sink-shitting deserves any particular worry or concern.
  #148  
Old 12-06-2018, 02:17 PM
Airbeck Airbeck is offline
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I think all of this becomes very simple if you just realize that women are in fact just people, and if you treat all people with respect, then you'll never have any issues. Just treat all of your coworkers as you would want any of them to treat you. I can't really understand all of the hand wringing and gnashing of teeth here. How hard is it not to be creepy to your coworkers?
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  #149  
Old 12-06-2018, 02:18 PM
Kimstu Kimstu is online now
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Why do so many men persist in sending pictures of their junk to women? Has it ever brought them success (sexually)?

Is there a single woman on the face of the earth who would be aroused or attracted by that?
Doubtless, but that's not the point. It is automatically inappropriate to send pictures of your junk to your co-workers, no matter how arousing or attractive they might find them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aji de Gallina
Knowing someone who was demonstrably accused falsely of sexual harassment "cancels" one hundred real ones. [...]

"Believe women" means "don't believe men" even if there is only the remotest of chances of the accusation being true.
How does one false accusation "cancel" even one non-false accusation, much less a hundred of them?

All such accusations should be taken seriously and investigated. That's what the maxim "believe women" fundamentally means.

When the investigation finds that, say, one out of a hundred women was not being truthful in her accusation, nobody is demanding that you believe that woman's false claims.

But you aren't legally, ethically or socially entitled to disregard a hundred valid accusations (or even one) merely because you know of one accusation that was false. Or vice versa, of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrainFireBob
"You look particularly nice today!"

"That's a nice new outfit. Very professional"

If the outfit includes a short skirt, there you go. You don't have to have commented inappropriately, merely noticing it as new can be enough.
What you're not getting is that commenting on a co-worker's appearance is by default inappropriate, even if you didn't say anything explicitly sexual.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrainFireBob
So never compliment anyone ever. Or say anything nice to anyone. Unless it's a man. Yeah, great way to eliminate sexism and make people comfortable in the work place.
Commenting on a male co-worker's appearance is by default inappropriate too.

The kind of butthurt obtuseness you're promoting here is obscuring the simple professional principle that you should not be offering your co-workers any judgements about what they look like, unless something about their appearance is directly relevant to work issues (e.g., company dress codes, safety regulations, etc.). Not even if you intend your judgement as a compliment.

If you want to compliment your co-worker about something related to his or her work, feel free. If you want to engage in a gendered ritual of openly evaluating and praising a woman's physical appearance that has jack-shit to do with work, save it for your social life.
  #150  
Old 12-06-2018, 02:23 PM
BrainFireBob BrainFireBob is offline
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I think all of this becomes very simple if you just realize that women are in fact just people, and if you treat all people with respect, then you'll never have any issues. Just treat all of your coworkers as you would want any of them to treat you. I can't really understand all of the hand wringing and gnashing of teeth here. How hard is it not to be creepy to your coworkers?
The definition of creepy changes over time. The 45 year olds know this better than the 19 year olds, because it was true when they were 19.

Example: Buying someone a drink at a club, which is a commonly recognized social meeting place for initiating romantic contacts, is now considered creepy by some young people, when by middle-aged people it was considered a respectful no-pressure approach; rejection of the drink indicating the same thing as swiping whichever direction the kids swipe today.
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