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  #151  
Old Yesterday, 06:44 PM
DrDeth DrDeth is offline
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She claimed to be Cherokee, ....
Cite?
  #152  
Old Yesterday, 06:53 PM
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Cite?
Look back for the cookbook and full documentation but here is one after the Cherokee Nation criticized her claims during the 2012 political campaign.

https://youtu.be/4oIVinDXzOw

Note that the eloping story she claimed in there has been researched by many groups and is not based in fact.

I provided left leaning sources, native sources etc... if you prefer Fox news google away.

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...-native-ameri/

But feel free to ignore a new page of cites.
  #153  
Old Yesterday, 07:04 PM
DrDeth DrDeth is offline
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Originally Posted by rat avatar View Post
Look back for the cookbook and full documentation but here is one after the Cherokee Nation criticized her claims during the 2012 political campaign.

https://youtu.be/4oIVinDXzOw

Note that the eloping story she claimed in there has been researched by many groups and is not based in fact.

I provided left leaning sources, native sources etc... if you prefer Fox news google away.

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...-native-ameri/

But feel free to ignore a new page of cites.
I dont do Youtube cites.

But as for the second cite- a cookbook? A freaken cookbook? Before she even entered politics? that's what you got? It is to laugh.

I do so.
  #154  
Old Yesterday, 07:16 PM
Dacien Dacien is offline
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Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
I dont do Youtube cites.

But as for the second cite- a cookbook? A freaken cookbook? Before she even entered politics? that's what you got? It is to laugh.

I do so.
I think the claim of being Cherokee in the cookbook, when taken together with everything else, (e.g. listing herself as "minority" in a hiring directory, being touted as a faculty member "of color" (gee, where did they get that idea?), etc.) definitely lends credibility in my mind that she presented herself this way, that presenting herself as Native American (specifically Cherokee) was more likely than not a thing that she did.

And it was all baloney. Which, it wouldn't be such a big deal if she had just said, "I guess I was wrong all these years. Based on my family stories I believed I was Native American, but I guess I'm not." But she didn't do that. She instead touted her DNA test as proof that she's every bit the Native American she always said she was. And she's not.
  #155  
Old Yesterday, 07:22 PM
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No he is not.

Yes? And so? Do you need to apologize to anyone who sez they are offended? She never made any claims she was a legal member of their tribe. They dont speak for all NAtive Americans not even all Cherokee.
There is no social cost for white americans being racist against native peoples right now, but don't take that comment out of context. That was related to a claim she had apologized, which she hasn't.

But yes in general to apologize about insulting someone you typically have to apologize to the people you insulted, and as that is all the Cherokee Nation was asking for it was a pretty simple task for her to do, and their requests are why Trumps researchers found this info.

There is no one Native American culture, 567 federally recognized Indian nations across the United States with more cultural and language diversity than in Europe. If you can't get why you can't apologize to a non-culture Native American, and doing so when you claimed connection to a single group (fyi her family said that the Delaware side merged with the Cherokee Nation) perhaps this link will help you start to understand how diverse of a group of people are lumped in this racist category.

http://www.ncai.org/about-tribes
  #156  
Old Yesterday, 07:24 PM
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I dont do Youtube cites.

But as for the second cite- a cookbook? A freaken cookbook? Before she even entered politics? that's what you got? It is to laugh.

I do so.
How convenient that you ignore her political ad from the 2012 campaign because it is on youtube, and hand wave away pages of cites. Sorry but I can't exactly hand you a VHS tape of it.

It looks like you have built quite the comfy confirmation bias nest for yourself there, hopefully it makes you feel safe.

Last edited by rat avatar; Yesterday at 07:26 PM.
  #157  
Old Yesterday, 07:31 PM
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The Cherokee Nation kinda sounds like grandstanding racist assholes. Don't think they specifically deserve an apology just because they make a big show of being offended by something that didn't really happen. If she had claimed membership to their tribe, they would have special standing to be offended. As it stands, they don't. So, if they won't accept Warren's generalized statements to not be claiming anything other family heritage, fuck em.

Last edited by CarnalK; Yesterday at 07:31 PM.
  #158  
Old Yesterday, 07:35 PM
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The Cherokee Nation kinda sounds like grandstanding racist assholes. Don't think they specifically deserve an apology just because they make a big show of being offended by something that didn't really happen. If she had claimed membership to their tribe, they would have special standing to be offended. As it stands, they don't. So, if they won't accept Warren's generalized statements to not be claiming anything other family heritage, fuck em.
Ah...here comes the common White fragility defensive reaction of ... “reverse racism”

Does this mean we start the page long battle of picking a word that means "prejudice plus power"?

Tell you what, pick any word and I'll accept it if you agree to agree that it has that meaning.
  #159  
Old Yesterday, 07:45 PM
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Reverse racism? They voted to kick black people out of the tribe. That's racism racism.

Last edited by CarnalK; Yesterday at 07:46 PM.
  #160  
Old Yesterday, 08:22 PM
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Reverse racism? They voted to kick black people out of the tribe. That's racism racism.
You know if you didn't dismiss when people point you at websites about logical fallacies, perhaps you would learn a few things. Especially in this type of situation where there is absolutely zero possibility we can ever understand another persons experiences.

I get you are trying to take the heat off of your previous statements and probably can't defend your argument, but trying to shift the focus back the tribe as not being perfect doesn't remove the larger impact of racist policies against Native individuals.

I seriously believe you are far smarter and stronger to get stuck at this stage. A minority group not being completely sin free is not justification to continue the oppression you are are suggesting committing. It is red herring to expect people to be perfect before you will treat them like like equals. Especially with the way we also treat people with African lineages.

The ironic thing, white fragility is directly related to perceived attacks on white identity, this is quite similar to self identity of self that Elizabeth Warren actions and your suggestions that we shouldn't care about and are willing to sacrifice for your own selfish desires.

Quite building a blame others for not being perfect models and falling short of your expectations as a qualifier for treating them as equals. As you ducked my offer to let you to even invent a word to describe the concept of "prejudice plus power" we can't even have a conversation. Because you are following the same protective path into a safe hole that people have when us whites are confronted with institutionalized racism and other groups.

You are better than this, but just deal with the fact that the conversation will start out uncomfortable and that you will like your self better in the end.

As all individuals and groups of minorities are made up of....humans, none of them are perfect. That fact doesn't excuse addressing the racist power imbalance that you have a unique ability to help short circuit. Don't sell yourself short by justifying that inequality because it is uncomfortable to talk about. None of us will ever be color blind, and the only reason to fill guilty for being born white should be if you decide to avoid discomfort by allowing others to suffer greatly merely due to their race.

Doing nothing is the evil choice and I have a feeling you are far better of a human being than to let that happen.
  #161  
Old Yesterday, 08:30 PM
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Here's the thing, I'm not justifying continued oppression of a minority group. That's your crazy unsupportable assertion. I'm saying that I don't give the Cherokee Nation as much moral authority as you do. That's not suppressing them. I support their sovereignty and right to self determination. I don't have to fucking like them. Sorry.
  #162  
Old Yesterday, 09:43 PM
DrDeth DrDeth is offline
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There is no social cost for white americans being racist against native peoples right now, but don't take that comment out of context. That was related to a claim she had apologized, which she hasn't.

But yes in general to apologize about insulting someone you typically have to apologize to the people you insulted, and as that is all the Cherokee Nation was asking for it was a pretty simple task for her to do, and their requests are why Trumps researchers found this info.
I dont see anyone being racist. Nor does anyone else. Perhaps a little too proud of a story she heard.

And I dont see any insult.


Let's say I thought I was 1/4 black, so I sometimes mentioned that. Would that be racist? Actually, my Grandmother is Spanish, so does that make me Hispanic?
  #163  
Old Yesterday, 09:57 PM
DrDeth DrDeth is offline
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How convenient that you ignore her political ad from the 2012 campaign because it is on youtube, and hand wave away pages of cites. Sorry but I can't exactly hand you a VHS tape of it.
I dont watch Youtubes, but just for you- and no where on that vid does she claim to be Cherokee. so much for that cite. (She does say that her mother said she was part Cherokee, and perhaps she was. You can be "part" NA without being a member of a federal tribe you know, that's what "part" means.) Indeed the quote you were talking about is in your second cite "As a kid, I never asked my mom about documentation when she talked about our Native American heritage," Warren said in a 2012 campaign ad. "What kid would? But I knew my father’s family didn’t like that she was part Cherokee and part Delaware. So my parents had to elope."

I didnt have wave away "pages" of cites. I waved away a cookbook, which we haven't even seen, and no one has said exactly what she claim in it, and was from 19fucking84. Hey, do you get mad at the Barefoot Contessa ? She's not only not a contessa, she's not even Italian! Man, super racist! No, it's a act she puts on, based upon the name of a store she used to own.

So, now you have one false cite.

You have another cite that sez that back in 1984 she said something about Cherokee- without any context... Maybe she meant she thought those were Cherokee recipes. Maybe she was doing a Barefoot Contessa thing. But in any case, it was back in 1984.
  #164  
Old Yesterday, 09:59 PM
DrDeth DrDeth is offline
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You know if you didn't dismiss when people point you at websites about logical fallacies, perhaps you would learn a few things. Especially in this type of situation where there is absolutely zero possibility we can ever understand another persons experiences.
https://www.npr.org/2011/09/19/14059...tions-decision
Cherokee Nation Faces Scrutiny For Expelling Blacks

How is that not racism?
  #165  
Old Yesterday, 10:16 PM
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I dont see anyone being racist. Nor does anyone else. Perhaps a little too proud of a story she heard.

And I dont see any insult.


Let's say I thought I was 1/4 black, so I sometimes mentioned that. Would that be racist? Actually, my Grandmother is Spanish, so does that make me Hispanic?
Rachel Dolezal?

But “blackface” is a better analogy because it is about power. Both are taking something important from someone else and use it for ridicule and entertainment mixed with a very real history of oppression. Had blackface not been used as a tool of oppression it would be less offensive, same thing with Native Americans cultural cleansing.

But you are still arguing this from the historical racist point of view, family linage and not DNA is what is important to this particular group of Native peoples, and you literally have no evidence that the 5 segments of DNA Warren has are even represented in the Cherokee Nation or even the other two federally recognized tribes with Cherokee ancestry..

You are purely guessing so because "they are all the same"

But perhaps you want to consider it from the black perspective, look over this thread, where white women on Instagram actually try to make themselves look black to gain fans.

https://twitter.com/WannasWorld/stat...89652487069696

I don't get a say in that but as you wanted to invoke that claim judge for your self.

Cultural cleansing, or an attempt to actually "breed" native populations out of existence. The UN today simply just labels this as genocide. Another way to think about it, despite Hänsel und Gretel being one of the more well known Brothers Grimm stories, a German would have to be careful about relating that story and it's ovens to Jewish people.

The mandating of “blood quantum” as a criterion for tribal membership, which, because of intermarriage between Indians and non-Indians over time, inevitably operates to achieve “statistical extermination” is a form of ethnic cleansing, and yes is a sensitive subject.

Perhaps reading "Conquest: Sexual Violence and American Indian Genocide" by Andrea Smith will help understand at least her perspective on the history.

Last edited by rat avatar; Yesterday at 10:19 PM.
  #166  
Old Yesterday, 10:35 PM
DrDeth DrDeth is offline
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But “blackface” is a better analogy because it is about power. Both are taking something important from someone else and use it for ridicule and entertainment mixed with a very real history of oppression. Had blackface not been used as a tool of oppression it would be less offensive, same thing with Native Americans cultural cleansing.

But you are still arguing this from the historical racist point of view, family linage and not DNA is what is important to this particular group of Native peoples, and you literally have no evidence that the 5 segments of DNA Warren has are even represented in the Cherokee Nation or even the other two federally recognized tribes with Cherokee ancestry..

You are purely guessing so because "they are all the same"

....
Cultural cleansing, or an attempt to actually "breed" native populations out of existence. The UN today simply just labels this as genocide. ...

The mandating of “blood quantum” as a criterion for tribal membership, which, because of intermarriage between Indians and non-Indians over time, inevitably operates to achieve “statistical extermination” is a form of ethnic cleansing, and yes is a sensitive subject.
....
How is saying this is a "Cherokee recipe" in a cookbook- after your Mother said you were part cherokee, and your recipes were solicited- be equivalent to Blackface? How is that "ridicule"? If anything it is the opposite.


How am I arguing from " historical racist point of view"? You seem to be calling me a racist.

I never said she was a legal member of that specific (and racist) Cherokee Tribe or any legal Cherokee tribe. She claimed to be "PART" Cherokee, based upon what her mother told her. And she could be. Anyway, it's not linage. It is whatever eash tribe choses. They can, and have, fully legally, make a person with not a drop of NA blood a legal member of their tribe, and they can drop people from their tribes who are NA on both sides going back generations. The definition is a legalistic one.

I never said "they are all the same". Show me those words.

What does "Cultural cleansing" have to do with a recipe in a cookbook?

This last paragraph makes no sense. Each tribe defines for itself who are it's members. Tomorrow, the Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians could hold a meeting and decide to allow adopted members, and vote Warren in. Then, she would be a Cherokee. Sometime ago the Cherokee Nation kicked all it's black members out- because the tribe made a racist decision.
  #167  
Old Yesterday, 10:54 PM
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How is saying this is a "Cherokee recipe" in a cookbook- after your Mother said you were part cherokee, and your recipes were solicited- be equivalent to Blackface? How is that "ridicule"? If anything it is the opposite.


How am I arguing from " historical racist point of view"? You seem to be calling me a racist.

I never said she was a legal member of that specific (and racist) Cherokee Tribe or any legal Cherokee tribe. She claimed to be "PART" Cherokee, based upon what her mother told her. And she could be. Anyway, it's not linage. It is whatever eash tribe choses. They can, and have, fully legally, make a person with not a drop of NA blood a legal member of their tribe, and they can drop people from their tribes who are NA on both sides going back generations. The definition is a legalistic one.

I never said "they are all the same". Show me those words.

What does "Cultural cleansing" have to do with a recipe in a cookbook?

This last paragraph makes no sense. Each tribe defines for itself who are it's members. Tomorrow, the Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians could hold a meeting and decide to allow adopted members, and vote Warren in. Then, she would be a Cherokee. Sometime ago the Cherokee Nation kicked all it's black members out- because the tribe made a racist decision.
You don't claim to be a member of a Cherokee tribe, they claim you. But I'm not going to cut up your meat for you like a child forever.

https://www.politico.com/story/2012/...-warren-076873

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/warren-...ican-ancestry/

Here are some cites that will hopefully understand why a DNA claim that assumes all peoples from north and south america are a single population is racist and why the Indian princess ancestor idea is tone deaf.

http://www.native-languages.org/princess.htm

https://timeline.com/part-cherokee-e...n-cf6be035967e

https://thinkprogress.org/elizabeth-...-c1ec6c91b696/

The fact that you are woefully ill-informed, unwilling to check previous cites and thus probably intentionally ignorant doesn't mean that you get to decide if a marginalized group is offended or not.

Have you even heard of boarding schools, if not search for that too.

Last edited by rat avatar; Yesterday at 10:56 PM.
  #168  
Old Yesterday, 11:01 PM
DrDeth DrDeth is offline
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You don't claim to be a member of a Cherokee tribe, they claim you. But I'm not going to cut up your meat for you like a child forever.



Here are some cites that will hopefully understand why a DNA claim that assumes all peoples from north and south america are a single population is racist and why the Indian princess ancestor idea is tone deaf.


The fact that you are woefully ill-informed, unwilling to check previous cites and thus probably intentionally ignorant doesn't mean that you get to decide if a marginalized group is offended or not.
She didnt claim to be a Member of a Cherokee tribe. Nowhere, no how.

And no one is making that claim.

Your cites consisted of a YouTube vid, and a politifact cite, both of whom I looked at.

Nor did I say that that group can't claim they are offended. I am offended by this post of yours.
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