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  #251  
Old 02-03-2020, 08:51 PM
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I still think Michael dying and joining Eleanor hand-in-hand as they go through the door would have been very touching.

I feel bad for Janet for "living" forever without them now. Am I alone?
Janet doesn't experience time like everyone else. She lives in all times at once. according to her. So she's still with them, just as she always was, and always will be, I guess.
  #252  
Old 02-03-2020, 09:40 PM
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The Chidi wave speech broke my 15 year old son down to gasping sobs. I think it might have been too much for him to bear but he loved it. We were both crying but he's been through hell lately and just a few weeks ago a classmate who had been harassing him for months killed himself. He's been struggling a lot since then. He said after that speech he felt whole again. It's amazing when a TV show can work that kind of therapy on a person.

The rest of the show was just about perfect. I was a little confused as to how Janet didn't know Jason was hanging out through what, a least a few bearamies...instead of going through the door.
  #253  
Old 02-04-2020, 08:06 AM
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And they even snuck in a Gardner Minshew reference.
  #254  
Old 02-04-2020, 10:19 AM
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The TV Tropes page linked to above posits that the little sparks that were a person's soul (or at least Eleanor's) bond with other souls to make them a little bit better - I don't know if this is canon but it explains why the neighbor, having thrown away Michael's junkmail, turned around and retrieved it.

The page also mentions that Trevor can be seen still flying through the void between the worlds (having been flung there by the Judge in Season 3) in a blink-and-you'll-miss-it moment. Clearly I blinked because I missed it.
  #255  
Old 02-06-2020, 10:07 PM
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I just started watching the show two weeks ago and finished it last night.

Holy shit. Why haven't I heard more about this? That was one of the greatest shows in the history of television. Jaw dropping.

While the wave speech was stunning - and in the end, what they implied was that it means we become a part of a billion other people, just as a wave becomes part of a billion other waves - the end of S4E9 still makes me tear up. "There is no answer, but Eleanor is the answer" is about as profound a statement on life and love as I can imagine.
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  #256  
Old 02-06-2020, 10:40 PM
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I just started watching the show two weeks ago and finished it last night.

Holy shit. Why haven't I heard more about this? That was one of the greatest shows in the history of television. Jaw dropping.

...
Well, we've been trying. Its just one of those great shows that never finds an audience. Quite probably a little too clever in many ways to have mass appeal.
  #257  
Old 02-06-2020, 11:37 PM
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Hey. (Another one that required some thought. I'm really running into these lately, aren't I? )

I recall that the original premise of this show was simply a world governed by video game-style scoring, and there wasn't even any mention of an afterlife. As with any show based on an evolving concept, there's the potential to keep things interesting but also to stray off message. The problem is that if it goes too far, it has the potential to become uncomfortable or even an outright disappointment even if the writing is excellent.

The good news is that the writing was excellent all throughout, and there never was a point where I felt slapped in the face. Even more remarkably, this is the only show in memory where I found everyone likable, even the ones I expected to utterly loathe. Jason was likable, Trevor was likable, Vicky was likable, Mindy was likable, Derek was likable in a goofy way, the various Janets were likable, Shawn...SHAWN, goddammit!...became likable, and even the dull-as-drywall judge had her moments. Hell, that entitled clueless schmuck who was meant to be as utterly unlikable as possible earned a small measure of redemption. This is light years beyond what I thought television capable of during the freewheeling 60's, much less the demographics-dominated modern era. Being able to create compelling stories without introducing the colossal jerk who gets away with everything (especially when a number of characters are outright devils) was a masterstroke, and I'm glad that I finally got to see it.

That said, for all this show's quality...I missed the manic comedic energy of the start of season 2. I really did. The final episode was like [Don't say Grave of the Fireflies, for Yukari's sake don't say Grave of the Fireflies, you know that never ends well!] Rocky Balboa; a nice capper, genuinely heartfelt, but so emotionally draining that I don't feel the need to subject myself to it again. The way I see it, if Michael Schur and company wanted a thoughtful, intelligent drama about humanity's purpose in the universe and how our belief in an afterlife ties into this, they should've made it like that from the ground up. As it is, we've gone from restaurant puns and flying mishaps and Janet disgorging a small fortune in pennies to...something really, really serious, and I can't help but feel a bit uncomfortable at that.

I also have to echo Exapno Mapcase's misgivings about The Good Place's residents getting bored with it. That's the easy way out, and it left a bad taste in my mouth (even more than that entitled clueless schmuck, if you can imagine). Michael's "solution" struck me as heavy handed. Given that he literally has all the time in the universe, couldn't he devise a way to prevent boredom or complacency from sinking in? Give these people a purpose? I get the feeling that the writers were under pressure to put a bow on this and took the most "meaingful" or "positive" way out that would avoid addressing this.

Conclusion: Yes, I enjoyed this a lot, but in hindsight mainly because it didn't disappoint me. A pleasant time, but I won't be getting this on DVD. (In contrast, Gotham disappointed me in some ways but I might someday get it on DVD, if only so I can make sense of the whole crazy thing.)
  #258  
Old 02-07-2020, 03:18 AM
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The Chidi wave speech broke my 15 year old son down to gasping sobs. I think it might have been too much for him to bear but he loved it. We were both crying but he's been through hell lately and just a few weeks ago a classmate who had been harassing him for months killed himself. He's been struggling a lot since then. He said after that speech he felt whole again. It's amazing when a TV show can work that kind of therapy on a person.
I’m going to see to it that Chidi’s wave speech makes it into kaylasmom’s memorial service this Saturday (one way or another).

Last edited by kaylasdad99; 02-07-2020 at 03:19 AM.
  #259  
Old 02-07-2020, 07:43 AM
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Well, we've been trying. Its just one of those great shows that never finds an audience. Quite probably a little too clever in many ways to have mass appeal.
The show had plenty of mass appeal. "The Good Place" ran for four seasons. NBC wouldn't have renewed the show three times if it had had only a small, niche audience. TGP would have gone on for even longer, if Schur (the show's creator) hadn't decided that the fourth season would be the last.

Last edited by Scribble; 02-07-2020 at 07:44 AM.
  #260  
Old 02-07-2020, 08:56 AM
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That said, for all this show's quality...I missed the manic comedic energy of the start of season 2. I really did. The final episode was like [Don't say Grave of the Fireflies, for Yukari's sake don't say Grave of the Fireflies, you know that never ends well!] Rocky Balboa; a nice capper, genuinely heartfelt, but so emotionally draining that I don't feel the need to subject myself to it again. The way I see it, if Michael Schur and company wanted a thoughtful, intelligent drama about humanity's purpose in the universe and how our belief in an afterlife ties into this, they should've made it like that from the ground up. As it is, we've gone from restaurant puns and flying mishaps and Janet disgorging a small fortune in pennies to...something really, really serious, and I can't help but feel a bit uncomfortable at that.
To a certain extent it felt to me like the show...grew up...along with the characters. S1 Eleanor was a white-trash dumpster fire of a person desperately scrabbling to keep herself from getting relegated to Hell. That she slowly became the person she pretended to be - as indeed did everyone else - was entirely the point of the show. Sure, Chaos Day was fun and giant sinkholes are exciting and all that, but unending chaos becomes as flat and tiresome as unending bliss. The show mirrored their journey to enlightenment, and ended when it ended.

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I also have to echo Exapno Mapcase's misgivings about The Good Place's residents getting bored with it. That's the easy way out, and it left a bad taste in my mouth (even more than that entitled clueless schmuck, if you can imagine). Michael's "solution" struck me as heavy handed. Given that he literally has all the time in the universe, couldn't he devise a way to prevent boredom or complacency from sinking in? Give these people a purpose? I get the feeling that the writers were under pressure to put a bow on this and took the most "meaingful" or "positive" way out that would avoid addressing this.
I thought about this a lot, and I certainly agree that there were various things Michael et alia could have done to make people's stays in the Good Place more meaningful and fulfilling and less tedious (funnily enough, I literally considered them putting in a cinema showing "Grave of the Fireflies" or at the very least "Old Yeller"; tempering their happiness with controlled bouts of sadness would make the happiness more endurable). But ultimately these would only be delaying the inevitable - no matter how much longer people stay, they would still be facing an eternity once they had exhausted every option, and the "arch" is really the only answer to that. And while I suppose the show could have squeezed in another episode of "Pimp My Heaven" it really wouldn't have had any plot to it, so it's not surprising they kept it simple.
  #261  
Old 02-07-2020, 10:43 AM
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Holy shit. Why haven't I heard more about this? That was one of the greatest shows in the history of television. Jaw dropping.
I think part of the problem is that this show is really hard to market. I didn't watch until the season season was already over. When I first heard the premise of "A woman gets into heaven even though she shouldn't have" I thought there was no way that it would last more than a season.
  #262  
Old 02-07-2020, 10:48 AM
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I thought about this a lot, and I certainly agree that there were various things Michael et alia could have done to make people's stays in the Good Place more meaningful and fulfilling and less tedious (funnily enough, I literally considered them putting in a cinema showing "Grave of the Fireflies" or at the very least "Old Yeller"; tempering their happiness with controlled bouts of sadness would make the happiness more endurable). But ultimately these would only be delaying the inevitable - no matter how much longer people stay, they would still be facing an eternity once they had exhausted every option, and the "arch" is really the only answer to that. And while I suppose the show could have squeezed in another episode of "Pimp My Heaven" it really wouldn't have had any plot to it, so it's not surprising they kept it simple.
Yeah, that's where I ended up. At first it bothered me, but after I started thinking in terms of Jeremy Bearimys, I figured that "delaying the inevitable" was the key point. We may be talking about the equivalent here, not of centuries or millennia, but millions or billions or trillions of years that it would take for a person to be done with their afterlife. And every day the door would be there ready for them, and they would know that.

(To forestall someone pointing out that Eleanor's spark goes into someone who looks like they're in modern times--it's not actually billions of years, its a certain length of Jeremy Bearimys. The "equivalent" I talk about is very rough.)
  #263  
Old 02-07-2020, 11:01 AM
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I think part of the problem is that this show is really hard to market. I didn't watch until the season season was already over. When I first heard the premise of "A woman gets into heaven even though she shouldn't have" I thought there was no way that it would last more than a season.
I'm trying to remember why I started watching it. I think it may have been because it received a prime slot from NBC, so that's usually a good sign, it starred Kristen Bell and Ted Danson and it was created by Michael Schur.
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Old 02-07-2020, 11:01 AM
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(To forestall someone pointing out that Eleanor's spark goes into someone who looks like they're in modern times--it's not actually billions of years, its a certain length of Jeremy Bearimys. The "equivalent" I talk about is very rough.)
Well, that's just because a Bearimy is a loop compared to time on Earth. So she (and Michael) exited the loop at a point when Earth was around 2020.
  #265  
Old 02-07-2020, 11:03 AM
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The show had plenty of mass appeal. "The Good Place" ran for four seasons. NBC wouldn't have renewed the show three times if it had had only a small, niche audience. TGP would have gone on for even longer, if Schur (the show's creator) hadn't decided that the fourth season would be the last.
It was never a top show. The rankings for season 1-3 were 77, 77 & 99th. The average viewers in millions were 5.72, 5.78 & 4.57.

That is what I mean. It was critically acclaimed and thankfully the powers that be at NBC felt it did well enough to justify its continuation. There is a difference between Mass Appeal shows that make the top 30 and shows that stay on the air. Many shows with The Good Place ratings would have been dropped.
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Old 02-07-2020, 03:32 PM
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When I watched the finale, I wondered about the trip Eleanor and Chidi took to Athens and Paris. Were they visiting a Janet-created simulation of the cities, or the actual ones? And, I wondered, if these were simulations, could she show you Athens at the time of Pericles? Or Woodstock during the 1969 concert? Because I could imagine spending a long time in the afterlife wandering around places and events in history.
  #267  
Old 02-07-2020, 03:41 PM
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When I watched the finale, I wondered about the trip Eleanor and Chidi took to Athens and Paris. Were they visiting a Janet-created simulation of the cities, or the actual ones? And, I wondered, if these were simulations, could she show you Athens at the time of Pericles? Or Woodstock during the 1969 concert? Because I could imagine spending a long time in the afterlife wandering around places and events in history.
They were simulations.

Quote:
Eleanor: Remember where he took us, like, the first month - when we were all together?
Janet: Oh, great idea.
Eleanor: Janet, set the scene.
Janet: Would you like it restored to its original glory?
Eleanor: No. The first time he went, he was in college. Have it look and feel exactly like it was that day when he fell in love with it.
  #268  
Old 02-07-2020, 04:06 PM
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OK. I have to watch the last episode again. I have to admit that I would love to see Athens (the Parthenon especially) restored to its glory.
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Old 02-07-2020, 05:46 PM
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Iím going to see to it that Chidiís wave speech makes it into kaylasmomís memorial service this Saturday (one way or another).
Hell, maybe it's true. Maybe, the way a wave goes back to the ocean and becomes part of billions of other waves, we become part of billions of other people. Maybe that's why we want to love each other so much; we're kind of reaching out to ourselves.
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Old 02-07-2020, 06:32 PM
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When I watched the finale, I wondered about the trip Eleanor and Chidi took to Athens and Paris. Were they visiting a Janet-created simulation of the cities, or the actual ones? And, I wondered, if these were simulations, could she show you Athens at the time of Pericles? Or Woodstock during the 1969 concert? Because I could imagine spending a long time in the afterlife wandering around places and events in history.
In "Patty" during their welcome party Janet says the green doors can take them to any time and place, real or imagined (at which point Jason took of to go-kart race with monkeys).

They certainly spent a long time wandering around places and events in history - if they were interested. They were there for at least 3300 Bearimies before Chidi left (just going by the title cards, possibly a lot more - and a Bearimy is a very long time.
  #271  
Old 02-08-2020, 01:06 AM
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I loved everything about the show. My only question is how they managed to film at Sacre Coeur during daylight with empty stairs. It's permanently crowded.
  #272  
Old 02-08-2020, 02:06 AM
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anyone wanna list some more of the cameos?
  #273  
Old 02-08-2020, 02:21 AM
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I loved everything about the show. My only question is how they managed to film at Sacre Coeur during daylight with empty stairs. It's permanently crowded.
They got permission to film an hour before it opened. (Oh wait, that was Greece, not Sacre Coeur)

They also happened to be in Paris during the funeral of Jacques Chirac, so certain streets were already blocked off and they took advantage of some additional freedom that allowed them.

I heard these facts on the official Good Place podcast.

Last edited by GuanoLad; 02-08-2020 at 02:22 AM.
  #274  
Old 02-08-2020, 09:42 AM
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In the scene in paradise where Chidi is teaching a moral philosophy course, two of the students are actual prominent moral philosophers.
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Old 02-08-2020, 10:38 AM
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I heard these facts on the official Good Place podcast.
I have loved listening to the podcast as I watched the series. If you are planning to re-watch I encourage you to give it a try. Mark Evan Jackson (who plays Shawn) is a skilled host and the guests bring great stories and insight.

At the end of each episode he asks the guests "what is good?" Their varied responses are brilliant and really left me uplifted.
  #276  
Old 02-09-2020, 12:40 AM
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I have loved listening to the podcast as I watched the series. If you are planning to re-watch I encourage you to give it a try. Mark Evan Jackson (who plays Shawn) is a skilled host and the guests bring great stories and insight.

At the end of each episode he asks the guests "what is good?" Their varied responses are brilliant and really left me uplifted.
Yeah, those are great. I really loved Michael Schur's last one.
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Old 02-10-2020, 08:19 AM
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In the scene in paradise where Chidi is teaching a moral philosophy course, two of the students are actual prominent moral philosophers.
Weren't those two actual advisors for the series?
  #278  
Old 02-10-2020, 12:19 PM
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Mark Evan Jackson (who plays Shawn) .
This is perfect. When the rest of you listen to the podcast you'll know why.
  #279  
Old 02-10-2020, 12:36 PM
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Finished on Sunday, Wow Great. I cried a fair bit, there were so many touching endings, and I was invested in the characters.

It does seem that anything would be boring if it lasts forever. We just can't conceive of it. Also, we are usually trying to make life better for ourselves and those around us. It doesn't seem necessary in heaven.

I know as a kid in church I never found the idea of heaven enticing. Singing someone's praises forever? Living on streets paved with gold? No thanks.
  #280  
Old 02-10-2020, 12:59 PM
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Iím going to see to it that Chidiís wave speech makes it into kaylasmomís memorial service this Saturday (one way or another).
The background music by Arvo Pšrt (Spiegel im Spiegel) is just as magical as the speech. We once had it on repeat for 3 days at our house. It never gets old, it never speeds up, it just goes. I hope the service for kaylasmom was everything you all needed.
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Old 02-10-2020, 02:40 PM
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It does seem that anything would be boring if it lasts forever.
I agree, I don't think it's a cop out but a logical response to the idea that the good place lasts an eternity. Eternity is an awfully long time.

I recall one discussion of heaven that took an economic view. Things that happen in the future are less ideal than things happening right now. If heaven is a place of absolute ideal-ness, then it must be a white hot instant of every possible wonderful thing happening at the same time, followed by nothing.

I like this Good Place a lot better.
  #282  
Old 02-10-2020, 03:15 PM
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I find it fascinating how many Christians (in general, not necessarily anyone here) believe in an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent God who created the heavens and the earth and everything else in the universe but who can't seem to figure out how to make the afterlife enjoyable.
  #283  
Old 02-10-2020, 03:30 PM
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Hmm. This talk makes me circle back to whether it's a satisfying ending. Specifically, whether they represented eternity/Jeremy Bearimy accurately .

The way "eternity" is presented is as "a really long time without ever stopping." And Jeremy Bearimies are presented as occurring sequentially and as an accumulation of time.

But "eternity" doesn't mean "infinite chronological sequence" necessarily (or even technically). It can mean "outside of time." And doesn't Jeremy Bearimy loop back on itself?

If the afterlife doesn't involve experiencing time sequentially, if it's recursive, then it doesn't need to get boring. A book might end, but it doesn't cease to exist when the last page is reached. In the same way that Janet doesn't seem to grow tired of things, because she experiences time differently, perhaps changing the perception of time would be a good fix to the afterlife.

I imagine that Ted Danson dies, comes back, and is like, "Eleanor! ELEANOR! I've got a great new fix for the Good Place so that nobody needs to die! Eleanor?"

Last edited by Left Hand of Dorkness; 02-10-2020 at 03:30 PM.
  #284  
Old 02-10-2020, 04:30 PM
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Hmm. This talk makes me circle back to whether it's a satisfying ending. Specifically, whether they represented eternity/Jeremy Bearimy accurately .

The way "eternity" is presented is as "a really long time without ever stopping." And Jeremy Bearimies are presented as occurring sequentially and as an accumulation of time.

But "eternity" doesn't mean "infinite chronological sequence" necessarily (or even technically). It can mean "outside of time." And doesn't Jeremy Bearimy loop back on itself?

If the afterlife doesn't involve experiencing time sequentially, if it's recursive, then it doesn't need to get boring. A book might end, but it doesn't cease to exist when the last page is reached. In the same way that Janet doesn't seem to grow tired of things, because she experiences time differently, perhaps changing the perception of time would be a good fix to the afterlife.
I took Jeremy Bearimy to mean basically that time loops around in the afterlife relative to time on Earth. But really, it's best not take Jeremy Bearimy seriously. It's a very funny joke meant to explain why they could live 800 lives and still end up back on earth in 2018.

But also, everyone keeps talking about the afterlife being boring. But that's NOT what they said.

Here's what Patty said:
Quote:
All your desires and needs are met, but it's infinite, and when perfection goes on forever, you become this glassy-eyed mush person.
~
I used to be cool, man.
I studied so much things.
Art and music and the, um, the one with the number piles? Where I'd be like, "Two!" and you'd be like, "Six!" - Math? - Yes! And then I came here where time stretched out forever, and every second of my existence was amazing, but my brain became this big dumb blob.
Basically, there's no more challenge any more. There's no mystery. And that's what the door is. It's not about death. It's about a mystery. The last mystery that even Janet doesn't know.
  #285  
Old 02-11-2020, 05:36 AM
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The one loose thread we didn't get wrapped up: where did the Committee go? They all stepped down and ran off to...where? Somewhere else in the Good Place? Another dimension? The Void Between the Worlds?

BTW I rewatched and spotted Trevor - he flies by very fast indeed in the background screaming when Michael and Tahani are talking to Doorman Frog Guy.

Also spotted: Brent is on afterlife number 15,000-something. He's definitely going to take a while to level up.
  #286  
Old 02-11-2020, 07:54 PM
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Meh. I didn't like this season in general and really hated the final 2 episodes. I'm honestly surprised that anyone found this conclusion satisfying.
  #287  
Old 02-12-2020, 03:54 AM
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The background music by Arvo Pšrt (Spiegel im Spiegel) is just as magical as the speech. We once had it on repeat for 3 days at our house. It never gets old, it never speeds up, it just goes. I hope the service for kaylasmom was everything you all needed.
Thank you; it was everything she could have wished for.

And I DID include that speech.
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Old 02-12-2020, 03:57 AM
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The TV Tropes page linked to above posits that the little sparks that were a person's soul (or at least Eleanor's) bond with other souls to make them a little bit better - I don't know if this is canon but it explains why the neighbor, having thrown away Michael's junkmail, turned around and retrieved it.
I like the idea that, along with fitting into the wave/ocean analogy, they became "the little voice in your head" helping you become a better version of yourself, whether it's delivering someone else's mail or not using use the fact that everyone's distracted to go back and steal more olives.
  #289  
Old 02-12-2020, 04:09 AM
zbuzz is offline
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Originally Posted by Sam Stone View Post
Janet doesn't experience time like everyone else. She lives in all times at once. according to her. So she's still with them, just as she always was, and always will be, I guess.
Wow, Janet is Dr. Manhattan.

Which means it doesn't rain squid in Watchmen; it rains shrimp, which means someone in the world of Watchmen doesn't really belong there.

We're through the looking glass here, people.
  #290  
Old 02-12-2020, 09:00 AM
ebb is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zbuzz View Post
Wow, Janet is Dr. Manhattan.

Which means it doesn't rain squid in Watchmen; it rains shrimp, which means someone in the world of Watchmen doesn't really belong there.

We're through the looking glass here, people.
"Not a doctor."
  #291  
Old 02-12-2020, 11:16 AM
enalzi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zbuzz View Post
Wow, Janet is Dr. Manhattan.

Which means it doesn't rain squid in Watchmen; it rains shrimp, which means someone in the world of Watchmen doesn't really belong there.

We're through the looking glass here, people.
I thought of her more like the bots from Westworld. She can't really see the future (otherwise she wouldn't be surprised that Jason was still around), but remembering events are just like living them to her.
  #292  
Old 02-12-2020, 11:22 AM
Ashtura is offline
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How does time work in the afterlife in this show? It is implied they were in heaven for eons doing everything you could possibly do, then Michael gets sent to earth's present, which couldn't be more than a few years after Eleanor's death?
  #293  
Old 02-12-2020, 11:27 AM
gregorio is online now
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It's all Jeremy Bearimy. And they're somewhere around the dot in the "i" iirc.
  #294  
Old 02-13-2020, 10:00 AM
DigitalC is offline
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I just binged every season over the past couple weeks and I gotta say this show is very good. Take Jason, in every other show he would have gotten progressively dumber until he became a caricature of a character, here instead he grows and gets smarter.
  #295  
Old 02-13-2020, 11:03 AM
enalzi is offline
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Originally Posted by Ashtura View Post
How does time work in the afterlife in this show? It is implied they were in heaven for eons doing everything you could possibly do, then Michael gets sent to earth's present, which couldn't be more than a few years after Eleanor's death?
Jeremy Bearimy, Baby.
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