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  #151  
Old 11-26-2013, 08:19 PM
even sven is offline
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Did she fall out of love because he wanted children? Did she discuss with him this desire and work to come to some understanding from him whether the relationship with her was more important than his desire for children? He might be more like a normal person, who is able to decide between indulging personal desires or balancing and negotiating among various desires. Perhaps he would have readily chosen their relationship.Again, not everyone demands that things go exactly their way.
Maybe he would have chosen to stay.

As it turned out, he's apparently happily married, presumably with someone who adores their life together, and has the family he dreamed of. She has her freedom and a wildly successful career.

I'm really not seeing them staying together would be a better outcome.
  #152  
Old 11-26-2013, 08:26 PM
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Maybe he would have chosen to stay.

As it turned out, he's apparently happily married, presumably with someone who adores their life together, and has the family he dreamed of. She has her freedom and a wildly successful career.

I'm really not seeing them staying together would be a better outcome.
So the end justifies the means?
  #153  
Old 11-26-2013, 10:38 PM
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So the end justifies the means?
No, the fact that it was the right decision justifies the means.

If a couple is fundamentally compatible, but the spark has died, by all means work together and try to reignite the flame. And if a couple has a huge issues, but are generally crazy about each other, that calls for counseling and compromise.

But when there is a fundamental incompatibility, and at least one party really doesn't like the other (and there are no kids and both of you are young and healthy enough to have a shot at real happiness with someone else), what is the point of dragging things out? What is the value of that, when the alternative is both of you eventually being happy? In my opinion, it's a lot worse to coast along in a dead relationship wasting everyone's time

I'm not a fan of the book. I have a special distaste for travel memoirs that linger on the author's sex life. But judging from the numbers, I'm guessing some people like that sort of thing.
  #154  
Old 11-26-2013, 10:51 PM
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even sven, did you watch the movie? I ask because you keep describing something that isn't really what the movie showed. Are you thinking of a different story?

The movie Eat, Pray, Love depicts a woman who relatively spontaneously decides to end her marriage, showing little compassion for her husband in doing so.

The fact that he is able to wind up in another relationship has little to do with whether the "protagonist" of the movie is reprihensible or not. For my money he does end up better off because he is shed of a really horrible, shallow and callous person. But that's the point of this thread.
  #155  
Old 11-26-2013, 10:59 PM
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And who trashes her husband and blames him for the end of the marriage (that she ended), then goes off on a self indulgent search for fulfillment.
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  #156  
Old 11-27-2013, 07:51 AM
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I guess I don't see what is so "sef-indugent" about a good long trip. Sure, it's not saving orphans or raising foster puppies, but few of use are doing that at home. Would it be less "self-indulgent" if she had stayed home while she worked through her demons? You can't even say she wasn't productive- she wrote a best selling memoir that spoke to millions.
  #157  
Old 11-27-2013, 08:38 AM
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You can't even say she wasn't productive- she wrote a best selling memoir that spoke to millions.
And used lies to paint her husband as a demon. You get two choices in a divorce when you're at fault...

You can shit all over your ex-spouse and prove to everyone that you're toxic and your ex-spouse is better off without you.

Or...

You can slink off into a corner until everyone forgives you.

Gilbert chose Option A, so everyone is rightfully jumping on her.
  #158  
Old 11-27-2013, 09:00 AM
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I guess I don't see what is so "sef-indugent" about a good long trip.
This may be a fundamental problem for you then, in your efforts to understand what others are trying to tell you.
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Sure, it's not saving orphans or raising foster puppies, but few of use are doing that at home.
When you pepper your arguments with silly extremes, it detracts from your point.
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Would it be less "self-indulgent" if she had stayed home while she worked through her demons?
If she had acknowledged demons that would have been something. If she had worked on change, that would have been something. She dumped her husband to go shopping, fucking and eating. What about that should "speak to" anyone?
  #159  
Old 11-27-2013, 10:57 AM
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It isn't all men. Many women found the movie to be embarrassingly celebratory of callous selfishness. My wife couldn't make it through the movie either.
My wife moderates a book club, and when they did this book she seriously hated it. It wasn't that Gilbert saw her marriage as loveless and left it...it was the fact that she buried her utter selfishness under the guise of a "spiritual quest" that left her somehow blameless and him at fault. My wife thought it was one of the most obliviously selfish things she'd ever read (and of course she had to finish it since she was moderating ).

And yes, this references the book and not the movieÖin order to fight ignorance, I feel the need to go to source material.
  #160  
Old 11-27-2013, 11:25 AM
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evensven,what is your issue, in all honesty with the people who attack Elizabeth Gilbert choices?

My own issue with what has been written/portrayed is the self indulgent nature, selfishness, narcissism and immaturity of the protagonist. Not to mention the whole noble savage overtones in India and Indonesia.
  #161  
Old 11-27-2013, 11:50 AM
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Here's a pretty good quote:

If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If I am not for others, what am I? And if not now, when?

That bolded part is where Elizabeth Gilbert, the rotoscoped people in the Schwab ads, and the E-trade talking baby all fall short. Sure, take care of yourself, don't live in submission to fear, reassemble your life as much as possible on your own terms. But don't expect to be admired by the rest of humanity when you clearly don't go to the next level of giving a damn about them.
  #162  
Old 11-27-2013, 12:32 PM
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Here's a pretty good quote:

If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If I am not for others, what am I? And if not now, when?

That bolded part is where Elizabeth Gilbert, the rotoscoped people in the Schwab ads, and the E-trade talking baby all fall short.
Uh, what?

People taking care of their financial investments are seen as selfish and/or narcissitic? Or are you just talking about the actors who appear in such commercials?
  #163  
Old 11-27-2013, 12:51 PM
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Have you seen those commercials? No, there's no virtue in being screwed by your broker, but the level of self-absorption and self-lauding the characters display is icky. "I played with my money better" isn't much of a contribution to the sum of human achievement.
  #164  
Old 11-27-2013, 01:46 PM
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"I played with my money better" isn't much of a contribution to the sum of human achievement.
Neither is you eating. So you can go ahead and stop doing that.
  #165  
Old 11-27-2013, 01:57 PM
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I guess I don't see what is so "sef-indugent" about a good long trip.
Aren't vacations kind of the definition of "self indulgent?" The whole point is to get away from your responsibilities and just do what you want for a week or so. Not that there's anything wrong with that, of course, provided you don't abandon your responsibilities entirely.

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Sure, it's not saving orphans or raising foster puppies, but few of use are doing that at home. Would it be less "self-indulgent" if she had stayed home while she worked through her demons?
Well, yes, in as much as "working through demons" implies a recognition that your behavior has caused harm to other people, and you want to prevent that harm from happening again in the future. Just saying "fuck it, imma do whatever I want to do," isn't "working through your demons."

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You can't even say she wasn't productive- she wrote a best selling memoir that spoke to millions.
If you believe that her book contains, at its heart, a poisonous message, then it's popularity is not a mitigating factor.
  #166  
Old 11-27-2013, 02:01 PM
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Have you seen those commercials? No, there's no virtue in being screwed by your broker, but the level of self-absorption and self-lauding the characters display is icky. "I played with my money better" isn't much of a contribution to the sum of human achievement.
"Self Lauding"?

No where in these commercials are they framing personal financial management as some kind of journey of/to self enlightenment.
  #167  
Old 11-27-2013, 02:01 PM
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Neither is you eating. So you can go ahead and stop doing that.
Don't be a jerk, Drunky Smurf.
  #168  
Old 11-27-2013, 03:04 PM
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Y'know, if the story had not contained a gratuituous negative depiction of the ex-husband, would there be lesser animosity? One wonders if, ironically, it was decided that he needed to be shown negatively lest her departure look too frivolous. Which it's being called so anyway.

While at it, BTW, I believe the decision to break up was right: if things are at a dead end over something critical, it's best to move along. But why cast villains?
  #169  
Old 11-27-2013, 03:10 PM
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Y'know, if the story had not contained a gratuituous negative depiction of the ex-husband, would there be lesser animosity? One wonders if, ironically, it was decided that he needed to be shown negatively lest her departure look too frivolous. Which it's being called so anyway.
She's a terrible person regardless (because of her "no reason" reason), but I bet if there was a lengthy chapter where she actually did face up to her demons and say "I'm a complete sack of shit for doing this because my husband was actually pretty great" there wouldn't be any animosity.

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  #170  
Old 11-27-2013, 03:35 PM
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As I said before, I've read the book but haven't seen the movie, so I'm not qualified to say one word on how the character of Elizabeth Gilbert is portrayed in the film. It is absolutely possible that the movie skimmed lightly over what the book delved more deeply into and that it's that that's creating the disconnect between what I read and what I see people responding to here.

In the book, however, Gilbert doesn't pull her punches on herself. She makes clear that it isn't that her husband has done anything wrong, it's that she's increasingly aware that the marriage is fundamentally broken because she and her husband want profoundly different things. I caught the scene in which she prays for guidance on YouTube and it's a very mild version of what was in the book, which has her collapsed in choking sobs on the bathroom floor. After she and her husband split up, she very nearly hurt herself with a knife; she calls a dear friend who gets her professional help. She goes through a profound depression and is tormented with guilt and shame. The only thing I recall her writing about her husband that was at all negative is that he went after all her assets and that it was only when he wanted a portion of her future earnings that she began to fight back.

The entire point of the year away was to have her work on herself so that she could be a whole person in the future. She went to Italy because she wanted to learn Italian. Part of the pleasure she got in the food was from her having lost a sharp amount of weight throughout the divorce process.

She was involved with a guy in New York before the divorce but breaks up for good with him when she's in Italy and resolves to keep sexuality out of her life until she has gotten herself more together, at least until that year of self-exploration is up. She ends up getting involved with the Brazilian man she meets in Bali after he persuades her to take a chance on love again.

I guess that, for me, the fundamental point of the book is 'charity begins at home.' If you don't have your own house in order, you don't have anything to offer anyone else. I don't think that that's a bad message. I know too many women who always put their own needs after everyone else's and never have the time to focus on them, to the point that they lose sight of who they are apart from the role that they fill.

Again, I'm held back by not having seen the movie. Lots of books have been rendered two-dimensional in the process of being turned into films. Can anyone who has both read the book and seen the movie comment? I almost feel that the spiritual journey of the book must have been reduced to a pretty-postcards-from-exotic-locations film version, judging from what people have been writing.

Because otherwise, all this contempt seems excessive to me. Because a woman left her husband? People leave their marriages every day. Because she eats delicious food in foreign countries? Really? Because she gets into a new relationship well after her divorce is final? Because focusing on your own needs is selfish and needs to be punished? Gee.
  #171  
Old 11-27-2013, 04:11 PM
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To me the leaving your husband was part of it, but the deeper part of it to me was her "spiritual journey." I haven't read the book, only seen the movie. But the movie is a travel fantasy - her spiritual journey does not come off as a search for herself, but as a highly materialistic experience - the "rich white people in an ashram in India gaining wisdom by eating vegetarian," "I'll rent a house in Bali overlooking the beautiful ocean and by looking over the beautiful ocean will understand my place in the world."
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  #172  
Old 11-27-2013, 04:15 PM
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Okay, you guys motivated me to go out and get the book. I am about halfway through.

She states that she does not want to bring her husband's behavior in the marriage into the book, and she doesn't. The most she says about her marriage is that they both had their respective bad traits, and that she had been miserable for some time. She says nothing about his job except that she was the breadwinner. It does seem the primary conflict is they had planned to settle down and have a family when she hit thirty, but when that date finally came she realized she REALLY did not want kids and did not want to settle down.

In other words, the name calling, the callousness, the cheating, the lack of thought, the abrupt and groundless decision.....none of those are actually there.

She does speak about his behavior after the divorce, but in fairly broad terms. She expresses frusteration with the animosity and complications of the divorce, but she doesn't really make it personal, though it seems like she could have.

Anyway, it's an occassionally clever book, though not my cup of tea. She comes off as a bit pleased with herself, and a bit of a navel gazer, and a bit hippy dippy. But she doesn't seem like a horrible person, just an occasionally obnoxious one.
  #173  
Old 11-27-2013, 04:21 PM
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Okay, you guys motivated me to go out and get the book. I am about halfway through.
Most of the people here are talking about the movie.
  #174  
Old 11-27-2013, 05:05 PM
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Again, I'm held back by not having seen the movie. Lots of books have been rendered two-dimensional in the process of being turned into films. Can anyone who has both read the book and seen the movie comment? I almost feel that the spiritual journey of the book must have been reduced to a pretty-postcards-from-exotic-locations film version, judging from what people have been writing.
Yes, that's part of the problem here. I've both read the book and seen the movie (which, to read so many, "well, I haven't seen or read it but..." comments makes me think I'm the one unqualified to have an opinion here) and the movie sucks, big time. Liz in the movie is a cunt, no question. Liz in the book, I don't believe her to be. Elizabeth Gilbert, I've never met and so don't have an opinion about.

But we also have a lot of angry divorced men projecting like super 8's all over this thread. The Liz in the movie is a bit of a cunt, but she's not as horrible as this thread makes her seem, either. She's a princess, and because so much of her process in the book is internal, it doesn't come off well on screen. But I don't recall any bitchiness or husband blaming or evilness, either. Just a little higher on the clueless quotient than the novel because we don't share her inner experience as well as we can in the novel.

And, as I said in either this thread or the other nearly identical one from years ago, the men in the film were cast all wrong. Richard was small, spiritually and physically, and what's-his-name the Brazilian was actually younger than Julia Roberts. I mean....really?! The whole CAUSE of her do-I-date-him agony was that he was in her superficial category of undatable men due to his age, and finally she got over it and saw him as a person, ditched the superficial categories in her head and gave him a chance. In the movie, it's more like she didn't want date him 'cause...um...never mind, she dates him. Very weird and unexplored and not at all sexy. The stuff with Wayan was chopped so that the actual point - Liz's realization that her friend was scamming her and she was going to have to woman up and put her foot down in a loving and compassionate way - a way in which she was never able to accomplish with her husband - all gone.

Posters are largely right about the movie - there was no growth to speak of in movie Liz. She starts out clueless and self-absorbed and grows to be clueless and self absorbed with better lighting and wardrobe. But she's, basically, too clueless and self absorbed to even begin to be evil and manipulative and all the rest she's being accused of. It's like accusing a toddler of being a cunt. They're not cunts, they're just...toddlers.
  #175  
Old 11-27-2013, 05:08 PM
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She comes off as a bit pleased with herself, and a bit of a navel gazer, and a bit hippy dippy. But she doesn't seem like a horrible person, just an occasionally obnoxious one.
And I'm sure Dan Brown is a really nice guy and probably a better-than-average writer, but when you become an international best seller and Oprah is pimping your book and then they make a goddamn movie about it, "Just occasionally obnoxious" doesn't cut it. By virtue of her success, we expect greatness, and when greatness is not found there's a terrible backlash.
  #176  
Old 11-27-2013, 06:08 PM
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So WhyNot seems to agree with the criticism of the movie, but also needs to take a gratuitous swipe at "angry divorced men projecting like super 8's."

I don't get that. You're saying the same things. I'm happy and married and said the same things. My wife felt similarly. Dangerosa and other women have said the same. Where's the projecting bullshit about angry divorced men coming from?
  #177  
Old 11-27-2013, 06:09 PM
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In other words, the name calling, the callousness, the cheating, the lack of thought, the abrupt and groundless decision.....none of those are actually there.

She does speak about his behavior after the divorce, but in fairly broad terms. She expresses frusteration with the animosity and complications of the divorce, but she doesn't really make it personal, though it seems like she could have.
.
[bolding mine]

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In the book, however, Gilbert doesn't pull her punches on herself. She makes clear that it isn't that her husband has done anything wrong, it's that she's increasingly aware that the marriage is fundamentally broken because she and her husband want profoundly different things. I caught the scene in which she prays for guidance on YouTube and it's a very mild version of what was in the book, which has her collapsed in choking sobs on the bathroom floor. After she and her husband split up, she very nearly hurt herself with a knife; she calls a dear friend who gets her professional help. She goes through a profound depression and is tormented with guilt and shame. The only thing I recall her writing about her husband that was at all negative is that he went after all her assets and that it was only when he wanted a portion of her future earnings that she began to fight back.

.
You're both kidding, right? (No, you probably aren't...)

"I won't open any of that," Gilbert does indeed say (IN THE BOOK--I haven;t seen the movie) with regard to why she left her husband, but read just a little further:

"...communications [he sent me] reminding me of what a criminal jerk I was."

"He let me know that I was a liar and a traitor and he hated me and would never speak to me again."

These really are not the remarks of somebody who isn't making it personal. Or who is actually taking the high road.
  #178  
Old 11-27-2013, 06:21 PM
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So WhyNot seems to agree with the criticism of the movie, but also needs to take a gratuitous swipe at "angry divorced men projecting like super 8's."

I don't get that. You're saying the same things. I'm happy and married and said the same things. My wife felt similarly. Dangerosa and other women have said the same. Where's the projecting bullshit about angry divorced men coming from?
I only agree insofar as to agree she's clueless and self-absorbed.

I don't agree that a person who is clueless and self-absorbed is a cunt.

I don't agree that a person who is clueless and self-absorbed is "a really horrible, shallow and callous person," or a "selfish, callous manipulators who justify their behavior by attempting to appeal to othersí sympathy for their suffering," or "a callous piece of shit," or even, "an awful person" who "does hurtful things without remorse or reflection."

And you were actually pretty nice about it, and all those quotes are yours. Those are descriptors I'd expect to read about a serial killer or a war criminal, not a woman who went on vacation to navel gaze and they made a movie about it.
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Old 11-27-2013, 06:23 PM
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I don't get that. You're saying the same things. I'm happy and married and said the same things. My wife felt similarly. Dangerosa and other women have said the same. Where's the projecting bullshit about angry divorced men coming from?
I'm also not a divorced man.
  #180  
Old 11-27-2013, 06:44 PM
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I only agree insofar as to agree she's clueless and self-absorbed.

I don't agree that a person who is clueless and self-absorbed is a cunt.


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Liz in the movie is a cunt, no question.
  #181  
Old 11-27-2013, 07:23 PM
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Okay, ya got me. I thought I'd edited that out, on reflection. Mea culpa.

I've gone back and forth on it several times in my mind, I'll admit that. I've certainly called her a cunt before (a couple of years ago in this thread, when my memory of the movie was more than a little bit fresher, in fact.) "Cunt" is a pretty ill-defined adjective in my mind - ranging from, well, a bit clueless and self-absorbed to all the dreadful other things you've called her. So obviously I should stay away from using it at all, not because it's offensive, but just because even I'm not sure what I mean when I use it.

So to clarify, I agree she's clueless and self-absorbed. I do not think she's "a really horrible, shallow and callous person," or a "selfish, callous manipulators who justify their behavior by attempting to appeal to othersí sympathy for their suffering," or "a callous piece of shit," or even, "an awful person" who "does hurtful things without remorse or reflection."

Better?
  #182  
Old 11-27-2013, 07:58 PM
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So she's a cunt, but not an awful person?

Sure, yeah.
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Old 11-27-2013, 08:10 PM
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And I'm sure Dan Brown is a really nice guy and probably a better-than-average writer, but when you become an international best seller and Oprah is pimping your book and then they make a goddamn movie about it, "Just occasionally obnoxious" doesn't cut it. By virtue of her success, we expect greatness, and when greatness is not found there's a terrible backlash.
So Oprah's the real cunt here? (if we're playing pin the merkin on the cunt)

BTW, Anyone remember we had much this same discussion about Sandra Tsing Loh?
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Old 11-27-2013, 09:03 PM
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I don't think she is a cunt - which is a word I don't use to describe other women - or an awful person - I think she is very unsympathetic as a character in the film. Its possible she is more sympathetic in the book or as a real person.
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  #185  
Old 11-27-2013, 10:48 PM
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I guess I don't see what is so "sef-indugent" about a good long trip.
You don't see what's self-indulgent about a long trip with a stated purpose of indulging herself in language, culture and food?

Last edited by Crawlspace; 11-27-2013 at 10:48 PM.
  #186  
Old 11-27-2013, 11:21 PM
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You don't see what's self-indulgent about a long trip with a stated purpose of indulging herself in language, culture and food?
I don't think it's any more self-indulgent than hanging around your hometown working and meeting your buds for happy hour, catching up on Mad Men, and heading out to the Ren Faire on the weekend, or whatever it is that people do. Most single people don't exactly live lives of service. At least Ms. Gilbert was trying to learn something and improve herself, however imperfectly. Beats spending your time writing YouTube comments or paying Wii Sports.
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Old 11-28-2013, 01:25 AM
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Originally Posted by even sven View Post
I don't think it's any more self-indulgent than hanging around your hometown working and meeting your buds for happy hour, catching up on Mad Men, and heading out to the Ren Faire on the weekend, or whatever it is that people do.
Ah, so now it's just that it's no more self-indulgent. Luckily you're still wrong. And it's not a matter of thought or opinion. It is, by definition, more self-indulgent to ditch your obligations so you can do whatever you want whenever you want than it is to fulfill your obligations and indulge yourself in the remaining time. Honestly, in the grand scheme of what an adult is legally allowed to do, deciding to ditch work and your life so you can live carefree like a child on summer vacation is pretty near the top.
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Originally Posted by even sven View Post
Most single people don't exactly live lives of service.
Can you point to someone arguing they do? This really just sounds like a broad ad hominem to normalize her actions.
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Originally Posted by even sven View Post
At least Ms. Gilbert was trying to learn something and improve herself, however imperfectly.
There's little indication that that was the intent, less that that was the result, and every indication that she was an entitled cunt upset that life stopped giving her a 24 hour a day awe-gasm.
  #188  
Old 11-28-2013, 01:47 AM
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Originally Posted by even sven View Post
I guess I don't see what is so "sef-indugent" about a good long trip. Sure, it's not saving orphans or raising foster puppies, but few of use are doing that at home. Would it be less "self-indulgent" if she had stayed home while she worked through her demons? You can't even say she wasn't productive- she wrote a best selling memoir that spoke to millions.
Where I see self indulgence is also perhaps also a little bit of jealousy.

I don't think its particularly "a struggle" or very "difficult" to go off and find oneself on some sort of oddeysey around the world and then write about it as a journey of self discovery -

Simply speaks to me of being a bit pretentious and spoiled.

I know of people that have achieved much - one that springs to mind is a General Manager I knew that took a two year sabbatical to manage a refugee camp for example - this is someone who I admire greatly, and would love to read his story.

I just don't see what's "special" or read worthy about some women who got bored with her life and did the journey of self discovery in a totally self indulgent, selfish and somewhat pretentious manner
  #189  
Old 11-28-2013, 01:55 AM
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Originally Posted by even sven View Post
. She says nothing about his job except that she was the breadwinner. It does seem the primary conflict is they had planned to settle down and have a family when she hit thirty, but when that date finally came she realized she REALLY did not want kids and did not want to settle down.

.
Which is a difficult to believe considering the actual mans career profile linked to earlier.

BTW, she does not want to settle down? geez, what a mature and capable adult.
  #190  
Old 11-28-2013, 03:20 AM
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I just don't get the contrast here.

"I got a divorce last year and fell into a bad rebound and some pretty serious depression. So, I've been keeping busy taking Italian lessons, doing lots of yoga, and eventually near the end of the year I started dating again."
"Good on ya!"
"Yeah, I was hired to do so while traveling as part of my work as a travel writer."
"In that case, you are a self-absorbed cunt."

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Originally Posted by AK84 View Post
BTW, she does not want to settle down? geez, what a mature and capable adult.
And I think we have got to the heart of the matter. Not wanting (or at least, not wanting in your 30s) the husband, the kids, and the material items makes you an immature and incapable adult. Or, it does so if you are a woman. I just don't see the same words being used for men who enjoy bachelor life in their thirties.
  #191  
Old 11-28-2013, 03:52 AM
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Errr, yeah you do. All the time. The word used is "manchild". And she was not single in her thirties. She had been married for about 8 years at the point. She had purchased a house. She had settled down . That is what is at issue here and shows her immaturity and general cuntiness. The shirking of responsibilities and obligations she had voluntarily assumed.

Last edited by AK84; 11-28-2013 at 03:56 AM.
  #192  
Old 11-28-2013, 05:42 AM
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Thank you, WhyNot. That clears up my confusion. Why are books so often adapted into films that completely lose or at least blunt the point of the book? It seems so futile to me.




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Originally Posted by Ulf the Unwashed View Post
[bolding mine]
You're both kidding, right? (No, you probably aren't...)

"I won't open any of that," Gilbert does indeed say (IN THE BOOK--I haven;t seen the movie) with regard to why she left her husband, but read just a little further:

"...communications [he sent me] reminding me of what a criminal jerk I was."

"He let me know that I was a liar and a traitor and he hated me and would never speak to me again."

These really are not the remarks of somebody who isn't making it personal. Or who is actually taking the high road.
Well. To me, those are the remarks of someone who went through a contentious divorce. All that I see there is that she's saying that her soon-to-be-ex-husband was unhappy with her, his soon-to-be-ex-wife, which doesn't seem all that extravagently awful. She's not saying about him except that he was hurt and angry with her at the time they were getting divorced. Is that really so awful?

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Originally Posted by Crawlspace View Post
Ah, so now it's just that it's no more self-indulgent. Luckily you're still wrong. And it's not a matter of thought or opinion. It is, by definition, more self-indulgent to ditch your obligations so you can do whatever you want whenever you want than it is to fulfill your obligations and indulge yourself in the remaining time. Honestly, in the grand scheme of what an adult is legally allowed to do, deciding to ditch work and your life so you can live carefree like a child on summer vacation is pretty near the top.
What obligations? She's a writer. She worked out an advance specifically to travel to three locations and write about her experiences. She was fulfilling her obligations by doing so.
  #193  
Old 11-28-2013, 07:51 AM
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Well. To me, those are the remarks of someone who went through a contentious divorce. All that I see there is that she's saying that her soon-to-be-ex-husband was unhappy with her, his soon-to-be-ex-wife, which doesn't seem all that extravagently awful. She's not saying about him except that he was hurt and angry with her at the time they were getting divorced. Is that really so awful?
Yes, because when you're the one solely at fault, people expect you to admit that fact.
  #194  
Old 11-28-2013, 07:51 AM
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You know who is a real immature bint? That Bill Bryson fellow. What with ditching all his obligations to wander around like an overgrown Boy Scout.
  #195  
Old 11-28-2013, 08:04 AM
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You know who is a real immature bint? That Bill Bryson fellow. What with ditching all his obligations to wander around like an overgrown Boy Scout.
As far as I'm aware, Bill Bryson has never been divorced, let alone left his wife for literally "no reason."

Therefore, I assume any trips he takes are all done with her permission.
  #196  
Old 11-28-2013, 09:48 AM
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Sorry, I meant to say Bill Bryson was self indulgent. Amiright?

How long should a divorcee wait before doing something enjoyable? She went on the trip a year after they were separated-- well after the relationship was good and truly over, and after the nitty gritty of the divorce was worked out. She didn't leave until all the legalities were worked out, which was a long process. It seems like she actively did make sure her responsibilities to her ex husband were fulfilled.

IMHO, her biggest mistake was getting married in the first place, but it's hard to tell how people are going to change. She seemed like she was happy with DINK life- she said they travelled together, shared a Manhattan apartment, worked exciting jobs and had their respective freedoms. But he wanted things to change...the house in the suburbs, the kids, the stable job, staying put, and she just didn't want that. What can you do?
  #197  
Old 11-28-2013, 01:29 PM
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IMHO, her biggest mistake was getting married in the first place, but it's hard to tell how people are going to change. She seemed like she was happy with DINK life- she said they travelled together, shared a Manhattan apartment, worked exciting jobs and had their respective freedoms. But he wanted things to change...the house in the suburbs, the kids, the stable job, staying put, and she just didn't want that. What can you do?
Admit that she's the asshole and not blame him in a book she wrote?

Honestly, if the book didn't include any mention of their divorce and the "reason" behind it, do you think anyone would be crapping on her life or her choices?
  #198  
Old 11-28-2013, 02:14 PM
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Admit that she's the asshole and not blame him in a book she wrote?

Honestly, if the book didn't include any mention of their divorce and the "reason" behind it, do you think anyone would be crapping on her life or her choices?
She. Didn't. Blame. Him. The only reason she gives is that she did not want to have kids, and did not want the life her marriage was heading for. She implies her husband was not an angel, but gives no details. She is equally hard on herself.

She said almost nothing about their marriage. She did talk about his behavior after the divorce, and related several things that he said to herwell after the marriage was over.

Last edited by even sven; 11-28-2013 at 02:19 PM.
  #199  
Old 12-02-2013, 12:57 PM
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She. Didn't. Blame. Him. The only reason she gives is that she did not want to have kids, and did not want the life her marriage was heading for. She implies her husband was not an angel, but gives no details. She is equally hard on herself.
And this was all in the book? I believe the OP made it pretty clear that the discussion was about the movie.

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Originally Posted by pkbites View Post
Watched the movie Eat Pray Love tonight. I did not read the book, nor will I read it even at gun point! So any references to the differences of the book/movie will be ignored.
  #200  
Old 12-02-2013, 03:10 PM
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Book versus Movie


Okay, out of morbid curiosity, I went to check out what I could see from the online version of the book. Ultimately I donít see much of anything that paints a very different picture from the movie depiction. I think the book actually serves to further illustrate her complete lack of perspective and empathy. Remarkably, Iíve ended up with a wall of text on the subject of just the few pages that I could see for free. Iím going to post this in several posts to make it somewhat digestible.

Let me restate that I do not personally have any problem with someone (man or woman, doesnít matter, Iím not interested in hashing out any gender warfare here) coming to realize that they do not love the person that they are married to, and coming to believe that the best thing to do is end the relationship. Let me also say that I am very sensitive to social roles and social expectations, and that they can coerce people to follow life courses that might not particularly feel natural or entirely of their freewill and consent. From that perspective, I see why many people would respond positively to the story of someone coming to recognize that such expectations have forced them to make decisions they regret and wish to undo. I myself find that aspect of the story to be very compelling and potentially intriguing, if difficult to confront.

However, a person of any sort of decency will recognize that this is going to be very hard on the person they are leaving. Itís a profound rejection. As difficult as any unilateral termination of a relationship, the kind she is talking about here is a nuclear level rejection. And the Liz in the book shows not a single momentís recognition of the profound hurt that she causes her husband. She writes about the entire experience with a terrible lack of perspective. She is extraordinarily unable to write anything about how her husband might have felt about it.

She describes having been together for eight years and married for six, having just bought a big house less than a year previously. She talks about their shared expectations and dreams of how their life would be. Over a matter of months, however, she decides that she no longer wants all of that. She starts to, in apparently equal parts, love and loath him. She describes him as an ďalbatrossĒ as well as her partner. What she does not do is reflect on how hard the whole thing is on her husband. In fact, she explicitly says that she is not able to talk with him about what she is feeling.

From what she has written, Lizí husband is nearly a decade into a relationship that, for all he knows, is solid and stable and filled with shared hopes and dreams. As far as he knows, they are happy having committed to a home and beginning to try to have children. Apparently, relatively suddenly, his wife starts becoming withdrawn, irritable, and physically sick. She spends time crying in the bathroom. What she does not do is attempt to explain to him what is going on. How could her ultimate decision to terminate the relationship end up being anything other than a devastating shock to him?
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