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  #51  
Old 08-06-2018, 03:06 PM
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Ok, so I moved on to The Number of the Beast by Iron Maiden and I am liking it less than Killers. It's a lot more polished and is missing the teeth in the musical sound that the previous album had. Still not bad. Invaders was pretty fun but I didn't like Children of the Damned at all and Prisoner I wanted to like but it went too far over the top for me. I'll finish up the album I have a lot of time to listen to music today and will report back. Dio is next after this unless someone wants to shout out a suggestion for something else first.
Start with Rainbow Rising: for me it's kind of a bridge between Sabbath/Purple/Zeppelin 70s hard rock and later, harder 80s metal, but probably still stands outside the NWOBMH: anyway, a killer band - they degenerated into squabbling and Blackmore firing everybody and went south fast - but not a weak track on the album. If you found later Maiden a little overblown, this may be the stuff for you.
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Old 08-06-2018, 03:18 PM
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To clarify, Rainbow was the band Blackmore formed after he left Deep Purple, with Ronnie James Dio as vocalist: Rainbow Rising was their second album, and Dio left after that to form, well, Dio.
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Old 08-06-2018, 05:11 PM
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I'm enjoying Rainbow Rising. As advertised it feels like it's a bridge between Black Sabbath and Iron Maiden. I can dig it. I'm kind of surprised I have never heard of them.

I listened to Holy Diver and didn't finish it. I found it to be a bit of a chore. It feels, to me, exactly like Survivor or Journey or any of those other 80s rock groups I was basically raised to hate. It's everything my teenage punk self assumed all metal was. Sorry. I can't listen to it and not picture a sports training montage. Decidedly not for me.
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Old 08-06-2018, 05:27 PM
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Earlier you asked about old Scorpions. I will always recommend The Sails Of Charon featuring guitar master Uli Roth. Considering that this is from the late 70s it has quite an innovative/progressive guitar sound. Scorpions lyrics tend to be awkward in English, as they are German, and it shows here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNElXTox6uM
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Old 08-07-2018, 08:29 AM
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It's funny. It feels like every YouTube link I have gone to has put a Lost in Vegas reaction to the same song in the play next lineup.

This is very different than the "Rock Me Like A Hurricane" Scorpions than you hear on the radio. You can hear some Kurt Weill and eastern European folk music influence. It's pretty cool. I'll track down more. Consider my mind blown.

I also spent time listening to more Motorhead yesterday listened to Overkill and Bomber which really felt like a breath of fresh air after Holy Diver (again, sorry. I get that people love that album. I don't understand). Motorhead all sounds the same but when you have a long drive there is something kinda nice about that. Those three albums are absolute keepers.

Who else should I be listening to before moving on to Thrash (thanks map of metal!) Right now I have Metallica Megadeth Anthrax and Slayer lined up to listen to. I am also planning to circle back to Judas Priest Screaming for Vengeance. Am I missing a step?

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Old 08-07-2018, 09:58 AM
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Screaming for Vengeance is awesome, Electric Eye is my favorite Judas song I think. For me, Judas' first step into the over-the-top, frankly ridiculous awesomeness of Painkiller (the song (What, like three solos? Four?), the album has both hits and misses. Apart from Painkiller I like Night Crawler, All Guns Blazing and Between The Hammer and The Anvil the most, as far as I remember. I can't stand A Touch Of Evil!).

Slayer is a must, I think. Lots of great albums to choose from. I'd personally skip anything from Metallica after Ride The Lightning, but maybe go as far as Master of Puppets. Thrash will probably play more to your hardcore sensibilities I think. I think it's time you check out my favorite metal album of all time: Ministry - Psalm 69

As far as further recommendations, have you begun to figure out what elements of metal you like?
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Old 08-07-2018, 11:00 AM
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As far as further recommendations, have you begun to figure out what elements of metal you like?
This is an interesting question. I can't quite put my finger on what I disliked about Number of the Beast or Holy Diver. On the surface what makes them that different than Killers or Rainbow Rising both of which I liked a lot or for that matter British Steel?

With Motorhead I can tell you exactly what I like. The beat. They drive, they play with an energy that kicks you in your chest. The rhythm section lays it down the track and the rest of the band turns in to a propulsive engine that does not let up. It's fun. It gets exhausting after a while, but it's fun. I feel like Rainbow had a bit of that too. I think that it feels like, by focusing so heavily on vocals and guitar, Number of the Beast and Holy Diver sacrificed what made the other stuff engaging for me. It's slick and it's virtuosic. Both singers have great voices, but a great voice doesn't matter that much to me honestly unless it's being used to improve the song as a whole. A song that is about the singer having a great voice is sort of meh. Same with shredding for the sake of shredding on guitar.

If I gave them more time I might come to appreciate what is going on with the two albums I didn't like because they are clearly classics. I'm almost embarrassed that I don't like them (and I almost like the Iron Maiden one). But, yeah. More kick you in the chest, less opera. For now at least.
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Old 08-07-2018, 11:11 AM
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Who else should I be listening to before moving on to Thrash (thanks map of metal!) Right now I have Metallica Megadeth Anthrax and Slayer lined up to listen to. I am also planning to circle back to Judas Priest Screaming for Vengeance. Am I missing a step?
You could check out other NWOBHM bands.

I highly suggest you listen to Venom before you start listening to thrash because thrash prolly wouldn't have been quite the same without Venom. Slayer in particular cite Venom as a major, major influence. They are the bridge from Motörhead's speed rock to what we know as thrash music, not quite fitting into either category but obviously a part of both.*

King Diamond would be another good band to listen to, IMO.

When you start in on thrash, I suggest you listen to Anthrax first, then Metallica then Megadeth; save Slayer for last. Stick with OT bands (original thrash) and worry about listening to 2nd Wave Thrash after you tackle nü metal, industrial metal and stoner/doom. Trust me, you'll appreciate the nuances that the new guys bring to the genre and you'll be ready for a breath of fresh air after the other genres take up too much space in your head.

I agree that Metallica is best on their first 3 albums (Kill Em All, Ride The Lightning and Master Of Puppets).

After you listen to the Big 4, don't forget to check out other bands, especially Exodus and Testament and Kreator.

For the record, in case people don't already know, Slayer is one of my all-time favorite bands. I've seen them over a dozen times live. I own all their discography, AFAIK. I've watched every interview I've ever stumbled across, read every magazine article, etc. IMO they are far and away the best of the OT bands, which says a lot because I think a lot of the stuff recorded back then is still top-of-the-heap material.

I'd be remiss if I didn't urge you to listen to '80s hair metal bands like Ratt and White Snake and Poison and Extreme and Dokken and Winger and Cinderella and even, yes, Europe. There are some good songs and some fantastic playing buried in there, but I also think it's cool to see how the music diverged at that point. One fork in the road led to thrash and black and death other 'extreme' forms of metal and the other led to the glam rock/heavy metal mashup that was hair metal. And a lot of what happened in the '90s and '00s was a reaction to that, so I think it's important to be aware of.


*Venom is an enormously influential band. Their recordings are crude (almost unlistenable at times, IMO), their playing is sloppy and the songs are only so-so 90% of the time, but they have an undeniable something that makes it all work somehow, to the point that not only are they influential, there's a good argument to make that the entire genre of Black Metal owes itself to Venom; after all, they coined the term: Venom - Black Metal.
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Old 08-07-2018, 12:07 PM
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Ok. I had been planning to do Venom and Merciful fate after Thrash but if it makes more sense to go there first I will. Other NWOBHM I should care about? I see Saxon pop up on the map of metal along with Angel Witch and another witch band. Or just say no based on my reaction so far and cut straight to Venom.


If you think hair metal is important I'll give it a shot. Suggestions of what's actually important/good would be appreciated though.
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Old 08-07-2018, 12:56 PM
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Venom is fun, boarding on silly sometimes ("In League with Satan" and "Poison") , but I like the raw feel to it. "Welcome to Hell" almost sound like it could be Dead Kennedys songs with a different lead guitar player, and "Live Like an Angel" and "Angel Dust" sound like they are straight out of Motorhead's catalogue, other stuff feels like grimier versions of what Iron Maiden was doing. They have a full fledged funk breakdown in the middle of "One Thousand Days in Sodom" which I don't know what to do with, and you are write some of their songwriting is not so great, but they are interesting. They probably would have been my favorite band if I had discovered them when I was 14 instead of finding Black Flag at the same time.
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Old 08-07-2018, 03:00 PM
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Ok. I had been planning to do Venom and Merciful fate after Thrash but if it makes more sense to go there first I will. Other NWOBHM I should care about? I see Saxon pop up on the map of metal along with Angel Witch and another witch band. Or just say no based on my reaction so far and cut straight to Venom.
Based on your reaction so far, I'd say they are not essential. Later, I'd say Saxon is a band worth hearing when you want to hear them, but they aren't essential to the development of the genre.
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If you think hair metal is important I'll give it a shot. Suggestions of what's actually important/good would be appreciated though.
I'm at work, sitting in the dark backstage and waiting for bad things to happen, so it's somewhat more difficult for me to link lots of songs right now, but if you look on YT for any of the bands I mentioned, you'll likely find their most popular songs coming up at the top of the list.

If I'm getting this right, you were 14 in the early 1980s and were into punk rock?*

Well, if you listened to rock radio during that time, from like 1982-1988, you'll recall lots of those bands I listed and their bigger songs once you start listening.

The thing to keep in mind is that eventually, because of money, the ballads became the thing for hair metal bands, but initially, they were more like turbo-charged rockers with no discernible philosophy other than "woot girls and beer (and drugs)!"

*FTR, I turned 14 in late 1980 and I was into punk rock, the punk rock that was too arty to be just punk that some people then called new wave, etc. and into '60s psychedelic rock. Gary Numan, The Clash, Jimi Hendrix, The Germs, DKs, X, XTC, Cramps, 13th Floor Elevators... heck I still listen to them, come to think of it.
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Old 08-07-2018, 03:41 PM
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Based on your reaction so far, I'd say they are not essential. Later, I'd say Saxon is a band worth hearing when you want to hear them, but they aren't essential to the development of the genre.

I'm at work, sitting in the dark backstage and waiting for bad things to happen, so it's somewhat more difficult for me to link lots of songs right now, but if you look on YT for any of the bands I mentioned, you'll likely find their most popular songs coming up at the top of the list.

If I'm getting this right, you were 14 in the early 1980s and were into punk rock?*

Well, if you listened to rock radio during that time, from like 1982-1988, you'll recall lots of those bands I listed and their bigger songs once you start listening.

The thing to keep in mind is that eventually, because of money, the ballads became the thing for hair metal bands, but initially, they were more like turbo-charged rockers with no discernible philosophy other than "woot girls and beer (and drugs)!"

*FTR, I turned 14 in late 1980 and I was into punk rock, the punk rock that was too arty to be just punk that some people then called new wave, etc. and into '60s psychedelic rock. Gary Numan, The Clash, Jimi Hendrix, The Germs, DKs, X, XTC, Cramps, 13th Floor Elevators... heck I still listen to them, come to think of it.
No I'm a couple years younger than you actually. I became aware of modern music around the time Kurt Cobain killed himself and after being heavily into post grunge (Smashing Pumpkins etc) in middle school, I ended up in the punk scene around 96. My gateway bands were actually The Swinging Udders and Social Distortion. But I have always been a music nerd (a requirement of the scene at the time) and quickly swallowed up all the back catalogue with The Clash being probably my favorite band still today, and Dead Kennedys and Black Flag being my favorites back then. But I also played guitar and was big into Cream and Led Zeppelin and Deep Purple and all the heavy 60s and early 70s guitar stuff too. So all the hair metal stuff happened when I was 6 or 7. I remember older kids being into Poison Motley Crew (they spell their name weird right?) and Warrant and Guns and Roses were obviously huge. But a lot of it was a joke by the time I was really old enough to think about it.

I'll find some stuff.

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Old 08-07-2018, 04:27 PM
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No I'm a couple years younger than you actually. I became aware of modern music around the time Kurt Cobain killed himself and after being heavily into post grunge (Smashing Pumpkins etc) in middle school, I ended up in the punk scene around 96. My gateway bands were actually The Swinging Udders and Social Distortion. But I have always been a music nerd (a requirement of the scene at the time) and quickly swallowed up all the back catalogue with The Clash being probably my favorite band still today, and Dead Kennedys and Black Flag being my favorites back then. But I also played guitar and was big into Cream and Led Zeppelin and Deep Purple and all the heavy 60s and early 70s guitar stuff too. So all the hair metal stuff happened when I was 6 or 7. I remember older kids being into Poison Motley Crew (they spell their name weird right?) and Warrant and Guns and Roses were obviously huge. But a lot of it was a joke by the time I was really old enough to think about it.

I'll find some stuff.
Okay; cool. That helps me figure out what you might have encountered already.

Based on the part that I bolded, I'm pretty sure you and I will get along fine musically.

Yep, everyone you mentioned at the end there was a primary hit-making hair-shaking spandex wearing rock star type of band back then. Poison was lame, Motley Crüe's music wasn't really cool enough for the umlaut but we let it slide because they partied hard and lived the rock star lifestyle, Warrant was a lot of talent with poor direction and songwriting and Guns N Roses were the rockingest that a hair metal band could possibly be because where, say, Poison were clearly naughty guys telling you how bad they were, GNR were clearly truly bad guys telling you how lame you were. Significantly different attitudes and presentations: Poison was singing "girl I want to fuck you" while GNR were singing "girl I'm gonna fuck you".

IMO GNR kind was a put-up-or-shut-up moment for people seeking to make heavy metal or rock music. They drew the line and said "we're standing right here, midway between the ballsiest, hardest rocking rock that ever was and the sanitized version of rock that they want to sell to the public... you're either trying to rock harder than us or you admit you can't rock this much, but we're the line of demarcation now!"

By the time grunge hit a couple of years later, metal was ready for some fragmenting and rebuilding.
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Old 08-07-2018, 05:13 PM
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I'm going to say something that is guarantied to start an argument among metal heads, but you absolutely must listen to Metallica's "Black Album" (it's actually self titled). Lots of the old school fans don't like it because it isn't thrash, but dammit, it's an amazing album.

Later on, if you want more straight-to-the-point stuff, which it seems like you might, try hardcore. Bands like Hatebreed and Madball.

Stay away from math metal/noise metal for a while. That's next level shit. I'm a dyed in the wool metal head and it's still tough for me to wrap my head around some of that.
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Old 08-07-2018, 05:24 PM
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I'd personally skip anything from Metallica after Ride The Lightning, but maybe go as far as Master of Puppets.
I don't know... if you liked the earlier albums ("Kill 'Em All", "Master of Puppets", "Ride the Lightning", you'll probably like "One" as well. It's in the same vein as those earlier albums.

The Black Album is where they change; it seems to be about 1/2 songs that might have been on earlier albums("Enter Sandman", for example), and half ballads, which at the time of release, were very perplexing. After that, they sort of shifted into being more rock, less metal IMO.

As far as Anthrax goes, "Among the Living" is probably the gold standard, although "State of Euphoria" is pretty good too. "Persistence of Time" is one I liked back in the day, although in retrospect, it was somewhat of a deviation from their established sound.
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Old 08-07-2018, 06:15 PM
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I know One, don't really like it. I don't really like Master of Puppets all that much either. For me Metallica more or less ends being worth it after Ride The Lightning. I like Kill 'Em All the most, but that might be for nostalgic reasons. YMMV of course.
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Old 08-07-2018, 07:54 PM
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Screaming for Vengeance is awesome, Electric Eye is my favorite Judas song I think.

[snip]


I think it's time you check out my favorite metal album of all time: Ministry - Psalm 69
Screaming for Vengeance was as advertised. It's going onto my "metal that I have liked" playlist.

I am putting Ministry onto my metal to try playlist. I'm slotting it in after the Thrash stuff though just to try to keep things semi chronological.

Up tomorrow looks like Merciful Fate - Don't Break the Oath, King Diamond - Abigail and then Anthrax - Among the Living again unless someone thinks otherwise.
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Old 08-07-2018, 09:03 PM
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Wanna know what a small world Metal/Hard Rock is? Thre's this drummer named Mikkey Dee who is an absolute beast on the drums. He's played with King Diamond. He's played for a long ime with Motorhead. Now he plays with the Scorpions. Here's a drum solo of his:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLtmeOdG2xc
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Old 08-07-2018, 10:58 PM
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I don't know how far you want to take this, NAF, but you might want to go to a concert. In my blood-soaked, maddened opinion you can't really understand metal people until you've at least witnessed a mosh pit first hand. You don't have to go into it, but it's... well it's hard to describe. Friendly violence? Insanity in motion? Comradely pain? When you fall, you get picked up... and thrown across the floor to do it all over again.
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Old 08-07-2018, 11:10 PM
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Ok. I had been planning to do Venom and Merciful fate after Thrash but if it makes more sense to go there first I will. Other NWOBHM I should care about? I see Saxon pop up on the map of metal along with Angel Witch and another witch band. Or just say no based on my reaction so far and cut straight to Venom.


If you think hair metal is important I'll give it a shot. Suggestions of what's actually important/good would be appreciated though.
Have Napalm Death been mentioned? Cos Napalm Death were a hugely influential 80s act; their early grindcore is close to what Wire were to punk in a lot of ways: just how far can we deconstruct this genre back to its basic constituents before it becomes abstract noise? I mean, that is pure fucking Wire right there. John Peel loved the shit out of them.
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Old 08-07-2018, 11:15 PM
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Have Napalm Death been mentioned? Cos Napalm Death were a hugely influential 80s act; their early grindcore is close to what Wire were to punk in a lot of ways: just how far can we deconstruct this genre back to its basic constituents before it becomes abstract noise? I mean, that is pure fucking Wire right there. John Peel loved the shit out of them.
Actually, I was gonna bring up grindcore after he makes it to thru to the start of death metal, since grind and death are related but grind is clearly the more extreme.

You're totally right, tho: Napalm Death is awesome and VERY important.

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Old 08-07-2018, 11:35 PM
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Sorry to be posting so much apropos of nothing, but I just realized no has mentioned Accept yet. NAF, you've probably heard Balls to the Wall, but it seems like you're at a good place to go deeper into the cleaner, well produced side of things that would eventually give rise to bands like Blind Guardian (one of my favorites) Symphony X and Kamelot. In other words good power metal (and GLORYHAMMER who take it to a hilarious extreme).

I seriously applaud you for making the effort [b]NAF[b]. Most people dismiss metal as nothing but noise to annoy your parents with. When you get to the present-day you'll (hopefully) see it for what it is.
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Old 08-08-2018, 02:46 AM
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Great thread so far!
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Old 08-08-2018, 04:55 AM
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Have Napalm Death been mentioned? Cos Napalm Death were a hugely influential 80s act; their early grindcore is close to what Wire were to punk in a lot of ways: just how far can we deconstruct this genre back to its basic constituents before it becomes abstract noise? I mean, that is pure fucking Wire right there. John Peel loved the shit out of them.
It'sbeen mentioned twice: Mahaloth mentioned Fear, Emptiness, Despair and I linked to You Suffer. Great band.
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Old 08-08-2018, 08:17 AM
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Have Napalm Death been mentioned? Cos Napalm Death were a hugely influential 80s act; their early grindcore is close to what Wire were to punk in a lot of ways: just how far can we deconstruct this genre back to its basic constituents before it becomes abstract noise? I mean, that is pure fucking Wire right there. John Peel loved the shit out of them.
I love Wire! The only thing I have heard about Napalm Death is that they have a 1.3 second song, Fear Emptiness and Despair is on my Playlist for... Later. Not sure when. Some point after Death. I like micro songs too so I'm looking forward to getting there. The Decedent's are another of my favorite bands that trade in micro music. They are a great band for when you want to listen to a lot of different songs but only have 5 minutes.

I have not heard of Accept and don't think I know Balls to the Wall (I'll listen in an hour or so.) Honestly in high school if it had a whiff of metal on it I treated it like plague with the exception Rage which I decided was rap and was ok to listen to. In college I got into some weird and experimental art music that is metal adjacent (Mr. Bungle, Sleepytime Gorilla Museum, Primus) but that's as close as I ever came. The whole genre just missed me.

I know Metallicas greatest hits (thanks to radio) and Korn that got radio play, system of a down that got radio play and probably nothing else. Turns out I know some Judas Priest (but didn't know it). Oh, I went to a GWAR show once with some friends, but that wasn't for the music. Basically if it wasn't a radio hit in the mid 90s or considered a classic by the mid 2000s I got nothing.
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Old 08-08-2018, 08:54 AM
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So, looking them up Accept is Speed Metal?

Also they are German which is a nice change of pace. I'll give one of their albums a spin. Allmusic recommends Restless and Wild or Balls to the Wall. If I have time I'll try them both.
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Old 08-08-2018, 01:54 PM
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I know Metallicas greatest hits (thanks to radio)
Not to beat the Metallica drum too hard, but by the time they were being played on the radio, they'd been making records for eight years, with most of their "classic" albums already produced.

The point when they started getting radio play (summer of 1991, "Black Album") was kind of a turning point for them as far as the music they played. Not that it was necessarily bad, but it was definitely different.
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Old 08-08-2018, 02:10 PM
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That's a good point. I probably don't know anything off the albums people have suggested. I do know Enter Sandman, their cover of Turn the Page, and the song that is Johnny Got Hit Gun(whose name I don't actually know. Is that One?). Probably a couple of others that I don't know I know from a similar Era.

Edit: I also know Nothing Else Matters

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Old 08-08-2018, 02:27 PM
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Just finished Merciful Fate Don't Break the Oath. I'm going to have to give that one a second listen, maybe with headphones. That's more what I was hoping Iron Maiden Number of the Beast would be. Come to the Sabbath might be the best song I have heard so far? It doesn't quite work for me, but I think that has a little to do with 80s production. There is a particular guitar sound they have that is just too processed for my taste. I don't know exactly what it is they are using but it seems to be a similar sound on most early 80s lead guitar and I have a hard time hanging with that. Anyone know what I'm talking about? It's like artificial fuzz distortion rather than real overdrive? Gives the guitars an almost synthesizer quality. But, I think on a second listen I'll get past it. At the very least that closer did it for me. And King Diamonds vocals are fantastic. Looking forward to his solo stuff... Now! On to King Diamond.
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Old 08-08-2018, 07:52 PM
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So, King Diamond Abigail. I was not expecting a concept album. It was like musical audio book horror story, and a really fun story too! I am super happy I listened to this today. King Diamonds vocals are fairly insane, and the rapid shifts between growling and glass shattering falsetto seem like they shouldn't work, but man do they ever.

I have no idea how this ties into the larger picture of the heavy metal world (other than sharing a singer with Mercyful Fate) but this was great.
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Old 08-08-2018, 08:35 PM
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I have no idea how this ties into the larger picture of the heavy metal world (other than sharing a singer with Mercyful Fate) but this was great.
King Diamond is pretty much his own thing, and doesn't really fit thematically with much else, but most of his records are concept albums (his next records 'Them' and 'Conspiracy' are actually a continuing concept).

Mercyful Fate are one of the best HM bands ever, and I'm glad you heard through the production to hear their potential. They really only had two records ('Melissa' and 'Don't Break The Oath'), as well as a couple of other great records full of demos, EP tracks, etc, which I strongly recommend ('The Beginning' and 'Return of the Vampire'). Their later records (from the mid 90s on) are less interesting.
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Old 08-08-2018, 08:40 PM
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I didn't get to Accept yet, it's on the docket for tomorrow. I did listen to the song Balls to the Wall and I had not heard it before. Feels sorta Judas Priest lite, but I'll give the whole album a shot.

As for Anthrax...how is this not a Hardcore album? Like, honestly what is the real difference between this and Black Flag or The Circle Jerks?

It has better production values but otherwise

Hyper fast 1-2 1-2 drums? Check
Heavy guitar distortion? Check
Singer who doesn't so much sign as shout in the general direction of the melody? Check
Humor? Check
Politically charged lyrics? Check
Crazy guitar solos... Wait a second punk doesn't do guitar shredding.

So, Hardcore if hardcore had real producers instead of DIY and add in shredding solos?

Yeah this is pretty great.
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Old 08-08-2018, 08:57 PM
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Mercyful Fate: Melissa is more raw sounding but still awesome. Having the lyrics handy is helpful.
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Old 08-08-2018, 09:53 PM
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As for Anthrax...how is this not a Hardcore album? Like, honestly what is the real difference between this and Black Flag or The Circle Jerks?

It has better production values but otherwise

Hyper fast 1-2 1-2 drums? Check
Heavy guitar distortion? Check
Singer who doesn't so much sign as shout in the general direction of the melody? Check
Humor? Check
Politically charged lyrics? Check
Crazy guitar solos... Wait a second punk doesn't do guitar shredding.

So, Hardcore if hardcore had real producers instead of DIY and add in shredding solos?

Yeah this is pretty great.
Oh good, you made it to thrash!

So the thing about thrash is that it pulled a lot of influences from a lot of places; this is, IMO, the first real new sub-genre of metal. It pulls the volume from arena rock and earlier metal acts, the fast pace and simplified song structures (and DIY ethic) of punk rock, the horror imagery from movies, the technical precision of NWOBHM and German speed metal, etc., etc.

Hopefully as you listen to more, especially by the time you get to Slayer, you'll hear the specific Venom influence, the connection between punk and thrash and the way that the undeniable and infectious energy of thrash manages to make it's way into so many subsequent iterations of metal.

To that end, and to help you learn more about the genre and about bands therein, I highly recommend two films: Get Thrashed: The Story of Thrash Music and the more narrowly focused Inside Thrash: The Rise of L.A. Thrash Metal. Both are much rougher than Headbanger's Journey, but they're also both solid docs with a lot of good footage and information. Get Thrashed is by far the more complete and better produced, but both are worth watching IMO.

ETA: IMO, Anthrax is a much different band than the west coast 3. They were more focused on melody, less on concise song structure and came up in a very different scene than the west coast scene. Sometime, if you don't know it already, you should look into the different evolutions of NY/East Coast hardcore and West Coast hardcore. They're as different as east and west coast rap, IMO.

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 08-08-2018 at 09:58 PM. Reason: fixed coding
  #85  
Old 08-08-2018, 10:22 PM
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Mercyful Fate: Melissa is more raw sounding but still awesome. Having the lyrics handy is helpful.
I'm going to listen to that and Don't Break the Oath again tomorrow. There is definitely something really interesting there.
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Old 08-09-2018, 07:10 AM
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I've read through the thread but may have missed some stuff.

Have you listened to Iron Maiden by Maiden? I saw you seemed to have liked Killers and they are similar. I actually like IM better then Killers. You might like Fear of the Dark as well.

For Priest most people, including me, really enjoy Defenders of the Faith and Painkillers. Both albums for me are really good all the way through. Their new album, Firepower, is my favorite though. I've been listening to it since the day it came out and almost every day or so since.

I like Accept, but never really took to Balls to the Wall, like the song but not really the rest of the album, Metal Heart and Russian Roulette are ones from that I go to from that era. Some of their newer stuff isn't bad, Blind Rage, Blood of Nations, Stalingrad are good.

Anthrax is hit or miss for me, I like a handful of songs from the first few albums, but really like Persistence of Time and Sound of White Noise. The two newest albums are pretty good too.

Has Ozzy come up yet? Bark at the Moon and Crazy Train are both good albums.

I'm all over the place on Motorhead, I could live without the song Ace of Spades. Both Bomber and Iron Fist are really good, but you might want to check out No Remorse which has a wide range of songs.

What about some Armored Saint? I like most of their stuff, but La Raza, Revelations, and Symbol of Salvation are my favorites.
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Old 08-09-2018, 09:39 PM
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I didn't get to Accept yet, it's on the docket for tomorrow. I did listen to the song Balls to the Wall and I had not heard it before. Feels sorta Judas Priest lite, but I'll give the whole album a shot.

As for Anthrax...how is this not a Hardcore album? Like, honestly what is the real difference between this and Black Flag or The Circle Jerks?

It has better production values but otherwise

Hyper fast 1-2 1-2 drums? Check
Heavy guitar distortion? Check
Singer who doesn't so much sign as shout in the general direction of the melody? Check
Humor? Check
Politically charged lyrics? Check
Crazy guitar solos... Wait a second punk doesn't do guitar shredding.

So, Hardcore if hardcore had real producers instead of DIY and add in shredding solos?

Yeah this is pretty great.
Hehehee, and now you've entered the world of Crossover. There were a lot of bands that straddled that line and played shows with other bands that would be otherwise considered punk. D.R.I. were a pretty popular example of that in the day. S.O.D. is another band that included Anthrax's Scott Ian. It's probably my favorite metal record from 85-90. Just so heavy on the beat.
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Old 08-09-2018, 10:58 PM
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Hehehee, and now you've entered the world of Crossover. There were a lot of bands that straddled that line and played shows with other bands that would be otherwise considered punk. D.R.I. were a pretty popular example of that in the day. S.O.D. is another band that included Anthrax's Scott Ian. It's probably my favorite metal record from 85-90. Just so heavy on the beat.
Stormtroopers Of Death's Speak English or Die is a landmark album, IMO: easily one of the single most influential metal recordings of all time.

I was standing in Spec's in the then-still-fairly-new Coral Springs Mall when they put this on the shelf; I immediately grabbed a copy on cassette. A couple of years later when it came out on CD, a friend bought me a copy for my birthday. A few years after that there was a re-issue with bonus tracks, so I got that. In 1999, I got the Steamhamer-released Platinum Edition on CD. The next year I got the Japanese edition with the live tracks they recorded in Tokyo (both of these had to be special ordered as imports and cost me like 2x what they would have if they were domestic releases). In 2015 I got the 30th Anniversary edition. I have no other single album in my collection of thousands that I've felt the need to obsessively collect every edition, in no small part because there are few other albums I've listened to as relentlessly as I have this one. It was stunning when it was released: faster, louder and ruder than anything most of us had ever heard before.

For the first few years this was out, those of us lucky enough to have snagged a copy would play it for friends, include stuff on mix tapes we traded, etc; word got around. People were amused, bemused, confused and/or enthused, but nobody listened to this album back then without knowing it was absolutely the heaviest, most brutal ddamned music in existence.

It just can't be stated properly how much this one album influenced thrash, death metal and grindcore as they developed and it's reach extends even to metalcore, slam, pornogrind, goregrind, groove metal and all kinds of different extreme metal genres and bands today.

1000% this is an album that headbangers should own, IMO.
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Old 08-09-2018, 11:04 PM
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Missed the edit window:

ETA: The follow-up, 1999's Bigger Than The Devil is fun and has some great songs on it, but it's definitely the lesser of the two. The spontaneity and immediacy of the first album was gone, in large part because of how each album came to be: the first was a spur-of-the-moment thing, a guerrilla session of writing, playing and recording that was far, far, greater than the sum of it's parts, while the 2nd was the result of deliberate, long-planned and/or anticipated goals, and the difference showed.
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Old 08-09-2018, 11:32 PM
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So today ended up being unusually busy and I didn't have as much time for music listening as I normally would. I did get to give Metallia's Ride The Lightning a spin though. It was good. I actually finished it and immediately started over because it was so cool. I see what people are saying about how they changed, though there were a handful of songs that sounded like the Metallica I was familiar with. Mostly it was, obviously the same band but more so? I feel like this was the most cohesive sound of everything that I have listened to. The solos shred but in a way that sounds organic to the music (like Motorhead and Venom but pretty much no one else.). The beat drives so hard that at times Lars seemed to barely be able to hang on to it. The rhythm guitar felt like a feature player in a way that felt pretty unique.

I am glad that I listened to Judas Priest, Motorhead, Mercyful Fate and Venom before I heard this though because it feels like they took my favorite things from each band and fused them together. Also, unlike Anthrax, while I hear the punk influence this feels clearly like metal and not a different metal adjacent thing

It was kind of a weird experience because Metallica looms so large in pop culture that I felt like I already knew the band, but it was all totally new music to me. I was going to listen to Master of Puppets too but didn't have time. Going to try to get to that tomorrow as well as some of the albums I wanted to circle back to before I tackle Megadeath.

Last edited by NAF1138; 08-09-2018 at 11:33 PM.
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Old 08-09-2018, 11:42 PM
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That is an awesome post, NAF; I'm glad you were able to hear the influences so clearly and that the sense that this was a whole new thing was also present.

I listed the Big 4 in the order I did because IMO each one is somewhat more of the thing than the previous band, with Slayer being the most extreme, the fastest, the most brutal lyrical subject matter, and IMO, the very best of the bunch. In Anthrax, I hear much more arena rock than the others. Metallica was the perfect fusion of heavy metal, speed metal and NWOBHM. Megadeth is both a continuation and a focus of what Metallica was doing, while Slayer were simply so much more punk, more raw and scarier, like Venom (yes: back then Venom's lyrics seemed genuinely subversive and dangerous; no one straight up sang about praising Satan at the time).

You seem to have a good ear for solos; I think you'll find Slayer's to be both chaotic and organic, somehow; their atonal solos are a signature of the band.
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Old 08-10-2018, 01:09 AM
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1000% this is an album that headbangers should own, IMO.
Undoubtedly. I kind of judge other metal heads by whether they recognize that record or not. It's kind of an unfair standard in this day and age, but I still kind of think less of you if you profess to know/like metal and aren't familiar with that record. It really is far more than the sum of its parts, explaining it does not help. It's a really singular record. I can't justify liking something that is intentionally that...Jesus, I can't think of another word...stupid, but it still has a monumental merit on a subconscious, plodding, primordial level. When they thought about it harder, it didn't really work. Seriously, I get so much joy from that record, I feel guilty. Like, "Bread and Butter" from the Newbeats or "Sugar, Sugar"* from the Archies level of guilty. No, nothing redeeming here. Enjoy.



But while you're still on the cusp of what I figure is Metallica's crest, I think you should pause on the title track of Master of Puppets. I was around when it was new, and saw them on that tour (and subsequent ones that were underwhelming). I used to kind of dismiss this song. I generally preferred the earlier stuff, and felt it was stronger. But over the years, that song has kind of stood out as a master(heh)piece of their original songs. When I've heard it recently on the radio, it's been a particular pleasure. As much as a heavily produced record can be considered "spontaneous", MOP seems that way, in a way that none of their records afterward attain. "One" almost does in its solo section (the only time I really like one of Hammett's solos), but the rest lacks energy. It's similar to what Bo mentioned in his criticism of later S.O.D. records, but transferred to a band that has more tricks to offer than pure pleasure of the beat translated into aggression and energy.




*Apropos of nuttin, one of my favorite live mashups of the late 80's-early 90's was the local band Lithium X-Mas doing a medley of Sugar, Sugar and (probably Big Black's cover of) Wire's "Heartbeat"

Last edited by scabpicker; 08-10-2018 at 01:13 AM.
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Old 08-10-2018, 01:21 AM
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Undoubtedly. I kind of judge other metal heads by whether they recognize that record or not. It's kind of an unfair standard in this day and age, but I still kind of think less of you if you profess to know/like metal and aren't familiar with that record. It really is far more than the sum of its parts, explaining it does not help. It's a really singular record. I can't justify liking something that is intentionally that...Jesus, I can't think of another word...stupid, but it still has a monumental merit on a subconscious, plodding, primordial level. When they thought about it harder, it didn't really work. Seriously, I get so much joy from that record, I feel guilty. Like, "Bread and Butter" from the Newbeats or "Sugar, Sugar"* from the Archies level of guilty.
"A singular record", indeed. Nothing else quite captures a feeling of such joyously aggressive friendly, unbridled, uncensored immediacy as that album does; it is a mosh pit made into songs.

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But while you're still on the cusp of what I figure is Metallica's crest, I think you should pause on the title track of Master of Puppets. I was around when it was new, and saw them on that tour (and subsequent ones that were underwhelming). I used to kind of dismiss this song. I generally preferred the earlier stuff, and felt it was stronger. But over the years, that song has kind of stood out as a master(heh)piece of their original songs. As much as a heavily produced record can be considered "spontaneous", MOP seems that way, in a way that none of their records afterward attain. "One" almost does in its solo section (the only time I really like one of Hammett's solos), but the rest lacks energy. tt's similar to what Bo mentioned in his criticism of later S.O.D. records, but transferred to a band that has more tricks to offer than pure pleasure of the beat translated into aggression and energy.
Well said, brother; well said.

MOP is, IMO, the pinnacle of Metallica's output. It is perfect. It is a model for anyone wanting to write a thrash song. It isn't the only perfect thrash song, mind you, but it is perfect.

Frankly, I'm not sure Metallica doesn't think so too. IMO they've never even tried to top (or equal) it; they knew they couldn't so they switched gears a bit and have mostly coasted for the past 25 years.

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 08-10-2018 at 01:23 AM.
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Old 08-10-2018, 06:13 AM
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at times Lars seemed to barely be able to hang on to it.
[snip]
That's because he barely was able to hang on!
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Old 08-10-2018, 08:15 AM
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[snip]
That's because he barely was able to hang on!


I get the feeling that his ambition as a drummer outstrip his ability. I'm listening to it again right now and on both Fight Fire with Fire and Escape he doest exactly fail to hang on, but he seems to clearly be struggling.

It does underline the drive of those songs though. I am not a drummer so maybe it's possible that breathless feeling is intentional, but I don't know how you do that on purpose.

On this listen I have a new appreciation for how James Hetfield actually holds down the beat with his guitar part. The guy is playing crazy fast and is a freaking metronome.

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Old 08-10-2018, 11:13 AM
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Everyone else is very technically proficient but Lars is indeed usually playing right at the ragged edge of his abilities, and that's where the swing in Metallica's sound comes from. IMO most rock & metal music finds the swing in the rhythm guitar work and the fact that the drums is the source uniquely flavors Metallica's sound.

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 08-10-2018 at 11:13 AM.
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Old 08-10-2018, 01:15 PM
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So, King Diamond Abigail. I was not expecting a concept album. It was like musical audio book horror story, and a really fun story too! I am super happy I listened to this today. King Diamonds vocals are fairly insane, and the rapid shifts between growling and glass shattering falsetto seem like they shouldn't work, but man do they ever.

I have no idea how this ties into the larger picture of the heavy metal world (other than sharing a singer with Mercyful Fate) but this was great.
King Diamond, IMO, represents the pinnacle and end of the proper influence of the NWOBHM (even tho he's Dutch, yes ) and as a pinnacle is also an apex point that can be seen in subsequent music. Abigail in particular is right up there with similar NWOBHM albums like Iron Maiden's Powerslave or Judas Priest's British Steel, but it's time of release also allows in a lot of newer innovations that aren't present or as prominent on those late '70s/early '80s releases.

In King Diamond you can hear a culmination of KISS, Alice Cooper, NWOBHM bands, speed metal, classical music and training, etc. all coming together in a fantastic package that crosses and blends lines in a number of ways.

Keep that in mind later, because once you get past Death Metal, things get really complicated with the sub-genres and where the influences came from and really interesting with how the different branches grow and flourish (and sometimes grow, wither and then flourish again).

ETA: One of the things that drives that is the technical proficiency of the musicians. Starting with NWOBHM and Eddie Van Halen, the bar was raised considerably and the up-and-coming generation of musicians responded well to the challenge. As such, they wanted to play what they could, so they often stretched the limits of the music to match their abilities, calling in influences from disparate genres simply because they could (or because they were such a part of their non-US/UK culture that they seeped into their rock music regardless).

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 08-10-2018 at 01:18 PM.
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Old 08-10-2018, 04:23 PM
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I'm really enjoying this thread, by the way.
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Old 08-10-2018, 04:52 PM
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I would recommend the original Bathory album, which I have enjoyed, partly because of its pivotal place in the beginning of the Black Metal genre.



Https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=z7Y24bYGGQA#



Then you will start seeing Bathory shirts on kids everywhere, advertising how old-school and hardcore they are.
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Old 08-10-2018, 05:09 PM
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I would recommend the original Bathory album, which I have enjoyed, partly because of its pivotal place in the beginning of the Black Metal genre.
Aye; he's ready for Black Metal; Bathory is a good introduction (and one of a handful of BM bands that I halfway like).

But Black Metal's not really my thing, so you or anyone else with a handle on the genre: feel free to speak up and educate us all; heck, take us all the way thru to today's kvlt scene if you want.

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 08-10-2018 at 05:13 PM.
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