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  #101  
Old 08-11-2018, 12:23 AM
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If I could provide a slight diversion into a style I love related to the point in history you are at, may I present Industrial Metal?

Ministry*, oh yeah, gimme some Ministry, pretty please!

Maybe some White Zombie, too. I'd be surprised if you hadn't heard More Human Than Human on the radio. There's a lot more than that, but the style tends to get pretty poppy or heroin-y pretty fast (heh, almost synonyms).

But! While we were talking crossover earlier, I forgot to mention the completely irreplaceable Bad Brains they were crossover long before even thrash was even really a thing. Heck, they invented Groove Metal, hell, they could do a medley of one of their own songs, a Beatles song and a Stones song, Damn, they ruled.


*I'm still not sure if that opening riff is really someone picking that fast, or a sample of a stun gun. I can still do an OK Dick Dale, but I've never been able to pull that one off convincingly. The guy from Rigor Mortis was playing guitar for him a lot at the time (JFC, that guy was fast). That makes it about a 50/50 proposition, since they also used a lot of samples. Only Jorgensen's hairdresser knows for sure.
  #102  
Old 08-11-2018, 11:16 AM
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Yesterday was busy so I didn't get to write up my daily progress report.

I listened to Master of Puppets. I have heard the title track before, but only because it was used in the film that Snowboarder Bo had me watch when I started this whole thing. Given that it's such a classic song it's weird to me that it never made it to my ears before. Maybe because it's almost 9 minutes long. The other thing that struck me was, even though I had only heard in in the movie, it was INSTANTLY recognizable. The only other song that I am positive I would recognize like that was Iron Maiden's Run for the Hills (also from that movie and off of Number of the Beast. I should have probably given that track more credit for having the same quality). Like I said I also listened to Ride the Lightning again, and watched the Lost in Vegas reaction to Fade to Black. I really like Ride the Lightning. I found Master of Puppets the album to be a little less engaging, though the title track was awesome and totally deserving of the praise.

Last night I watched Get Thrashed as recommended by Bo. It caused me to add a couple of bands to my playlist, and to decide that I want to listen to Kill Em All before I listen to Peace Sells since it seems (from the movie) that it is kind of a halfway Metallica halfway Megadeath album. I am really looking forward to Megadeath now though.

Ministry is decidedly on my list, but I want to hang with thrash for a bit before I head off into other subgenres. Also, I am vaguely familiar with White Zombie because of when they were popular. I know Nine Inch Nails pretty well too for the same reason (Smashing Pumpkins Melancholy and the Infinite Sadness and NiN The Downward Spiral were two of the first records I bought with my own money before I fell in with the punk rock crowd).

It's weird because I absolutely know some of the crossover bands. I have listened to the fist Suicidal Tendencies album maybe a thousand times. It played at almost every party I went to in high school (as did the first two Rage albums who are, I suppose, technically metal) If the Bad Brains are a crossover band (I'm skeptical, to me that are fully pure punk) but I know them well too. The movie helped me understand that blending though. Metal Heads seem to have been a little more accepting of other sub cultures than other sub cultures were of them. At least where Thrash is concerned culture seems to be a much bigger dividing line than actual music was. It is crazy to me that I wrote off bands like Metallica (and especially Anthrax) for years simply because they were metal and I was a punk. And I wasn't a ride or die punk either. I was into hip hop and ska and old school country western and thought of myself as way more open minded than my peers. Sometimes you don't realize you are being closed minded until you look back.

So that's my revelation for the day.

Up today is going to be Kill Em All and Peace Sells. And then I'm going to try to watch that other movie.

Last edited by NAF1138; 08-11-2018 at 11:19 AM.
  #103  
Old 08-11-2018, 12:17 PM
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Your posts are fun to read, NAF.

You're about to listen to those 2 albums in the right order, you know.

See, Dave Mustaine was in Metallica in the early days of the band. He co-wrote some of the songs on Kill 'Em All. Nothing motivates Dave Mustaine like hate, tho, so when he was kicked out he formed Megadeth, with the intention of out-thrashing his former bandmates (and everyone else). It's debatable whether or not he did that (he didn't), but it's pretty clear that Megadeth still rocks.

With a background in punk rock music, yes, you're going to start seeing some band names pop up on t-shirts, in interviews, maybe even in footage, that you know and associate with punk rock but that are part of the Heavy Metal Universe. Suicidal Tendencies, Rage Against The Machine, hed (P.E.), Snot. Starting in the late 1970s and early 1980s, we started to see some very talented musicians with some very disparate influences trying their hand at melding what they loved.

At the forefront was Bad Brains. They had the musical chops playing and the talent in songwriting and arranging to meld hard rock/heavy metal of the mid 1970s with funk and reggae, but it was their embrace of the energy and immediacy of punk rock that truly set them apart musically. Throw in their politics and religious perspective and they were undeniably interesting, but it was the sheer frenzy of their live shows, all conducted while maintaining precise playing, that won people over. There was never anything like them, and never really has been anything else like them since.

They paved the way for acts like Suicidal Tendencies, who similarly embraced punk, rock and funk and then filtered that thru the haze of late 1970s Southern California's lower middle class for another fairly unique sound and perspective.

By the early 1980s punk bands were starting to flirt with other genres, particularly the dance music emerging from the rubble that disco left behind and jazz, with rap music a rapidly gaining third. The more technically proficient musicians, the ones who were able to ideate and translate their ideas into actual music, led the way.

The same thing started to happen in metal in the mid-80s, shortly after thrash developed. There was already some splintering, some experimentation that was being done, but once Possessed and Death (especially Death, IMO) came into being, it was impossible not to notice that there were a number of distinct branches that were growing, no matter that they were all part of the same tree.

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 08-11-2018 at 12:20 PM.
  #104  
Old 08-11-2018, 12:30 PM
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Feel free to listen to Megadeth to your heart's content: their output doesn't change much from one album to the next; they are fairly consistent in tone and quality, at least thru Countdown To Extinction.

Then, when you've had your fill, listen to Slayer's Reign In Blood.
  #105  
Old 08-13-2018, 01:47 PM
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She listening to Kill Em All, I weirdly don't recognize the band on that album. About 3 songs actually sound like Metallica on Ride the Lightning or Master of Puppets. It was really surprising. It was also a little less interesting than Ride the Lightning was as an album. So I have decided that Ride the Lightning is my favorite Metallica album. I should probably listen to the ones that came after Master of Puppets to be sure, but based on what everyone is saying those are yet again more or less a different band. So, another time. I really really like Ride the Lightning though. It's easily my favorite thing I have listened to in this whole experience followed by... Peace Sells But Whose Buying? which takes the second slot from Judas Priest.

That is also a heck of an album. Just, fun, front to back, nothing I don't like about it other than a lack of sonic variety. I listened to Rust in Peace also, which was good too but felt like it was trying a little harder to be epic and didn't have the effortless feeling that Peace Sells has. Tornado of Souls is great though. Probably my favorite off Rust in Peace. But I can very much see myself listening to both Megadeth albums more.

Classics for a reason, right?

I watched the Rise of LA Thrash movie also, and have decided that I should probably listen to Exodus, Dark Angel and Testament before I tackle Slayer. I am going to listen to the first Exodus album today and probably the S.O.D. album that was suggested.

Any recommendations for Testament or Dark Angel? They seem to be the other two bands that everyone was talking about in both these Thrash documentaries. Oh, I was also going to listen to Kreator based on the documentary. And I seem to like Thrash, which makes sense now that I know more. I'll be listening to Slayer before the week is over though (and Ministry) and then, I guess on to Black Metal starting with Bathory?

It seems that the path sort of goes in a few directions. It goes off to Black Metal, off to Death Metal and off to Other (seems like mostly Doom metal but also Groove and other stuff).

Not really sure how to follow those paths or if I should even tackle them separately. I have Death, Possessed, and Celtics Frost on my playlist which chronologically all happen around this time period.

Last edited by NAF1138; 08-13-2018 at 01:48 PM.
  #106  
Old 08-13-2018, 03:59 PM
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Ride The Lightning is also my favorite Metallica album, even tho MoP is my favorite Metallica song, so you're not alone there.

Exodus, Testament, Dark Angel, Kreator... listen away. The thing is, IMO, all of these bands were far, far better in the 2nd Wave of Thrash (post 2000) than in the first run. I dunno what happened, but ALL of the older bands (well, not Metallica) suddenly were out-agro-ing all their younger counterparts, and then the young 'uns kinda went "ohhhhhh like that" and got on board themselves. So you have a lot to look forward to when you want to feed your thrash hunger.

And yeah, from here on the paths are many. Glam metal/hair metal dies a much deserved death, death metal comes into form, black metal and goth metal march on, grindcore takes form and takes off and stoner/doom/groove & desert metal are in their nascent stages.

At this point, just take your pick and we can help you start exploring; you've got a good handle on the history of metal and some experience with some of the landmark bands and music. You're pretty much good to go.

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 08-13-2018 at 03:59 PM.
  #107  
Old 08-13-2018, 04:29 PM
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This is just to say that this S.O.D. album you guys suggested rules and that Exodus Bonded by Blood was a little disappointing. My expectations for it were maybe too high.

But Speak English or Die, that's a keeper. Anti procrastination song is my favorite thing ever.
  #108  
Old 08-13-2018, 04:36 PM
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Aye; that one is pure genius.
  #109  
Old 08-13-2018, 04:37 PM
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As far as where next, Black Metal seems to have more fans in this thread than Death does. What is the bridge between this stuff and Mayhem posted earlier? Bathory?

Also, what actually is Doom Metal? I see that mentioned a lot but usually without any examples.
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Old 08-13-2018, 05:40 PM
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Doom is the genre that worships Black Sabbath; all things doom trace a direct line back to them.

Subject matter is typically dark and gloomy stuff: death, demons, bad places, bad people, hopelessness, etc.

The music is, like Black Sabbath, blues based but crucially includes the tritone. Doom is usually medium or slow paced, but not always. Low end via drums and bass are essential components, where in lots of other metal the bass is effectively nonexistent or creatively secondary. Guitars are typically down-tuned one or more whole steps. Doom is meant to be listened to LOUD, so that the music moves so much air that it feels suffocating, pressing all around you with tangible force. Or at least, as close as you can get before you actually start losing your hearing or breaking windows.

First came Sabbath just being Sabbath. Then we had some bands that kind of were Sabbath-like, but were also kinda arena rock/power metal-y; bands like Witchfinder General, Trouble and Pentagram. Then Scott "Wino" Heinrich eventually came along, realized he was born like 15 years too late and started trying to rectify that with a series of bands that continues to this day, including his first band, The Obsessed and his second band, Saint Vitus (the title of this album is Born Too Late, ffs). Wino is a key figure in doom metal, a true Defender of the Faith; any metalhead who sees him in public should thank him for his life's efforts and offer to buy him a beer or fire up a joint, IMO (I would).

You can hear the ultra-slow drums there. The long, drawn out guitar riff is still only a few notes/chords, but it takes like ten seconds to happen instead of one-and-a-half. The melancholy, Ozzy-esque vocals. This is proto-doom, IMO, not quite fully formed yet.

Then the whole desert/stoner thing started kicking up dust (think Kyuss) and before we could cough, Sleep happened. Holy Mountain, did Sleep happen!

So now with Doom as a full-fledged genre, we started to see some ideas coalesce around the term: Sabbath influence, reverence for analog recordings, old amps, old guitars, old effect, etc. A love of marijuana. Near universal attempts to make music that was "heavy" sounding musically.

Doom bands often seem to need at least one album to get warmed up, get their feet under them, etc. The UK's Electric Wizard fit into that category, delivering two landmark albums after a decent but not-very-exciting debut: 1997's ...come my fanatics (my favorite of theirs) and 2000's Dopethrone. These two albums set the bar impossibly high for just how low music could be and remain seminal 2 decades on; Funeralopolis is pretty much Doom's perfect song just like Master Of Puppets is Thrash's perfect song.

From there, things just kind of took off. Take the basic blueprint of Black Sabbath's music, twist it up and smoke it and call it Doom.

Another notable band/album from the early days, one that took me a few years to finally acquire back in the mid-2000, is Acrimony - Tumuli Shroomaroom. Awesome stoner/doom, but since they only released this one full length many overlook them.

Note that desert and stoner often walk the line between "rock" and "metal"; for the most part nobody gives a shit except people who want to argue like it means something.

Anyway, after that thing shave kept evolving. There's actual stoner doom, (bands like Bongzilla and Bongripper and Seedeater, where everything is related to pot), there's classical doom (like Candlemass), there's Satanic doom, black doom, death doom, drone metal, etc. Even sludge metal traces it's roots directly back to Black Sabbath (and I love me some sludge!). Oh, and certain locales also have their own special flavor of doom: southern US doom, Pac NW doom, UK doom, etc.

Doom is one of my favorite genres. I can offer plenty of recs including new bands like Whores Of Tijuana and bands that are still active after long careers, like Sleep - Marijuanaut's Theme.

Oh, and then there's new bands that sound like they're old bands, like Orchid.

That's a pretty good start, I reckon. Let me know if you wanna talk more about Doom, eh.

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 08-13-2018 at 05:45 PM.
  #111  
Old 08-13-2018, 06:55 PM
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ffs I just noticed that autocorrect changed Weinrich to Heinrich.

DYAC!
  #112  
Old 08-13-2018, 08:41 PM
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I traffic turned a 45 minute drive into a 2 hour drive today, so I decided screw the plan let's listen to Rein In Blood.

HOLY FUCK.

I was not prepared for that. No, scratch that, I was prepared, I just didn't expect it. I also listened to Seasons in the Abyss, that was more what I expected. Rein in Blood was not that. First off, are we certain that they weren't speeding up the tape? It is rare that I am just full on astonished by a guitar part. But I don't know how the heck you string those ideas together, and make them sound good, and play IN RYTHM at that speed. Also, the guitar sound is perfect for this type of music. This is probably the first band since motorhead where the guitar sound on the lead is exactly right. Maybe that's Rick Rubin, maybe it's just advances in technology, but I love the guitar sound on this album on the leads. But yeah, in the race for who is the hardest and fastest and most literally jaw dropping band, Slayer wins. Is it even a competition? I get the feeling at one point it was a competition.

Here is the thing that kills me though. And this was thrown into relief by the Exodus album, it's hard and fast and still musical. It's not just speed, it's not just power. It's speed and power played with a swing and melody and honest to God the most creative lead guitar I have ever heard. Without the lead guitar I don't know if I would have liked them as much. The rhythm section was solid, the singer has a great voice (actually I'll come back to him because there is cool stuff there too) the rhythm guitar is great, but non of it on its own is extra remarkable. But, that lead guitar destroys and their songs, with the notable exception of Reborn and Epidemic which are the same damn song with different lyrics, all find unique ways to play off that hardcore sound. Just ridiculous.

Back to the singer. His articulation was damned impressive. Again, at that speed a lot of people become unintelligible. You can understand him clear as a bell. Again, some of that is probably Rick Rubin and the fact that most of the people who sing at that speed are recording in a garage rather than at Def Jam, but even still.

Legitimately, a week ago I don't think I would have gotten it. But, yeah, I get it. This was great. I'm glad I'm doing this project!
  #113  
Old 08-13-2018, 09:10 PM
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Oh, one other thought. I was pretty concerned that I would have difficulty taking Slayer seriously because of lyrical content. The satanic thing doesn't do anything for me and anyone ringing that bell too seriously is going to be a little hard to take (See Venom, who I liked for what they were but haven't listened to again and likely won't.)

But, here, no problem. Likely because it was really well written and at times clever. It ended up being like hip hop about subjects that don't resonate with me. It ends up being about the sound of the words more than the content.

Good stuff.

So, a couple of duds, but SOD and Slayer win out the day!
  #114  
Old 08-13-2018, 11:24 PM
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That's great, NAF; I'm glad you 'got' it.

Like, all of it, especially how it takes some education and experience before a person's ears are ready for some of this. There's this whole set of building blocks that got the music where it is today, and it can be difficult to get there for listening purposes without building up the musical vocabulary, so to speak.

Keep in mind that Slayer's RIB came out in 1986, the same year that Megadeth gave us Peace Sells... and Metallica released MOP. There simply wasn't anything else like Slayer. They were clearly several light years beyond other thrash bands technically, with a lyrical focus on evil in all it's forms that their contemporaries lacked. Their songwriting was solid because it was simple; they weren't trying to wow us with their ability to change the tone of their songs at all, they were just trying to bludgeon everything in their path as quickly as possible. I'm pretty sure that literally every single musician who has heard it has said "yep: they win."

Death metal latched onto the evil lyrics, the precision, the power of Dave Lombardo's double kick, etc. and explored more complex song structures that they fused with the melodocism that Slayer eschewed in favor of atonality. At the same time, the guys were coming of age who would soon form the bands at the heart of the Norwegian Black Metal movement, who also embraced more complex song structures and more melodic content.

Metalcore, meanwhile, focused on the chug, taking all the best parts of metal and burning the fluff off. What's left is chugging, mosh pit-able riffs with brutal breakdowns and lots of shouted, gang choruses. It's metal that's punk as fuck.

Hatebreed - Destroy Everything
Throwdown - Burn

Later, some jackass figured out that a tiny bit of melody could be a cool contrast to all the shouting which then got overdone by like the 3rd song but hey, chicks dig it so now we got screamo and emocore and that kind of stuff and I doubt it'll stop any time soon. Thanks Killswitch Engage.

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 08-13-2018 at 11:29 PM.
  #115  
Old 08-14-2018, 12:33 PM
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I would recommend the original Bathory album, which I have enjoyed, partly because of its pivotal place in the beginning of the Black Metal genre.



Https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=z7Y24bYGGQA#



Then you will start seeing Bathory shirts on kids everywhere, advertising how old-school and hardcore they are.
So going through this thread and the Map of Metal this morning I decided to put Doom Metal on a back burner and try to follow both Black and Death metal sorta kinda at the same time. They seem to more or less co develop and then splinter right around this point in the late 80s so we shall see what happens.

With that being said Bathory (self titled) Possessed - 7 Churches, and Death - Scream Bloody Gore are on the docket for my drive time. Which, if I am reading things correctly, weave in and out with when Slayer in particular was at its most influential which seems to be something of a key.
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Old 08-14-2018, 08:40 PM
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So with Bathory... Is it supposed to sound like the recording equipment is in the room with the drum kit and everyone else is in a room next door or is it just a function of them not having great recording equipment?
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Old 08-14-2018, 09:24 PM
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One of the things I can't stand about black metal is it's embrace of poor recording as an aesthetic.
  #118  
Old 08-14-2018, 09:30 PM
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One of the things I can't stand about black metal is it's embrace of poor recording as an aesthetic.
I am having a hard time with it.

I am liking Possessed better, but I think expecting that I could take in three albums in one day was ambitious. Both took multiple listens and I'm not even ready to write up thoughts yet.
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Old 08-15-2018, 09:27 AM
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So with Bathory... Is it supposed to sound like the recording equipment is in the room with the drum kit and everyone else is in a room next door or is it just a function of them not having great recording equipment?
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One of the things I can't stand about black metal is it's embrace of poor recording as an aesthetic.
It used to piss me off when I was younger, but then I grew to somewhat appreciate it. This was a time with lots of terrible releases production-wise, with records being re-released on cd.

I'll post some examples I like:

Darkthrone - A Blaze In The Northern Sky (It sounds like it's recorded in a toilet, but somehow works.)
Satyricon - Dark Medieval Times (The quintessential black metal guitar sound, really angry wasps.)
Gorgoroth - Pentagram (Amazing vocals)

Here's a really weird one... I got it as a kid and could never listen all the way through! I was fucking pissed off at the sound. I'm still not sure if I like it or not, but I think it's hilarious:

Darkthrone - Goatlord
(It's a demo! Those backing vocals! Haha!)



I'm posting full albums, I hope that's okay. I usually don't listen to single songs, I like to put on the whole thing. NAF, I would love to take you through an introduction of black metal like Bo did, but I just can't. In a living room with some cold beer, sure, but I'm just not enough of a writer to put it into writing.
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Old 08-15-2018, 12:12 PM
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I'm posting full albums, I hope that's okay. I usually don't listen to single songs, I like to put on the whole thing. NAF, I would love to take you through an introduction of black metal like Bo did, but I just can't. In a living room with some cold beer, sure, but I'm just not enough of a writer to put it into writing.
No worries. I just feel like with Black Metal I'm missing a key to something. There are points when I am listening to some songs on the Bathory album or the Darkthrone you linked to where I am almost starting to get into it, but it really feels a lot of the time like I'm stuck in someones drum practice and the band I really want to listen to is in the studio next door. And, I am getting the feeling that that is maybe a choice? But I can't make sense of it. I really want to figure it out because there is some of what is going on that is cool and interesting, but I am missing the road map. I don't know if jumping ahead in time will fix some of this or not.

And it kills me because I like low fi stuff generally, but this is low fi to the point that I'm struggling to find the song. Seem like it would be awesome live, and maybe that's the point?

I think I have thoughts on Possessed but I want to listen to Death today also and I'll come back with thoughts on both of them. Short answer is I like them less than Slayer but that may be sort of unfair to Possessed.
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Old 08-15-2018, 02:46 PM
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I liked Death: Scream Bloody Gore even though I can't understand a word he's saying. I may like it better because I can't understand a word he is saying, I'm not sure. But after Possessed and the first Bathory album I'm glad for something that's a little different sounding, and frankly a little more competent sounding.

That said, I didn't hate Possessed, but I don't think I'm keeping it. It really does feel like a poor man's Slayer, and while that may be unfair I can't shake it.

As for Bathory, I decided to take my jump forward in time suggestion and listened to Blood Fire Death, and THAT'S WHAT I WAS HOPING FOR WITH THE FIRST ALBUM! I'm not complicated, just eq the damn thing so that you can hear all the instruments! I may listen to more Bathory. I find them intriguing beyond believe even when I'm not crazy about the actual music.
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Old 08-15-2018, 03:00 PM
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I never liked heavy metal until about 20 years ago. It started off with just an occasional song I liked and seemed to expand. I still know nothing about metal or know most of the artists but I do enjoy listening to it now.
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Old 08-15-2018, 04:11 PM
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Oh, one other thought. I was pretty concerned that I would have difficulty taking Slayer seriously because of lyrical content. The satanic thing doesn't do anything for me and anyone ringing that bell too seriously is going to be a little hard to take...
Yeah, it's a joke or marketing mechanism for Slayer. They were not genuinely Satanic at all.

Tom Araya has talked about being Catholic, actually. Not sure if he is too serious about it or not.

Edit: Here it is. The lyrics are just words and do not reflect his belief.

It's just a horror movie kind of thing. They are just being intense for the fun of it.

Last edited by Mahaloth; 08-15-2018 at 04:12 PM.
  #124  
Old 08-15-2018, 05:26 PM
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Yeah, it's a joke or marketing mechanism for Slayer. They were not genuinely Satanic at all.

Tom Araya has talked about being Catholic, actually. Not sure if he is too serious about it or not.

Edit: Here it is. The lyrics are just words and do not reflect his belief.

It's just a horror movie kind of thing. They are just being intense for the fun of it.
Maybe that's it. When it's obviously performance it's just like any other type of performance.

Also, as a palate cleaner I put on the Ministry album that was recommended. 1) it's awesome. 2) Trent Rezner was pretty clearly a Ministry fan huh?

Last edited by NAF1138; 08-15-2018 at 05:30 PM.
  #125  
Old 08-15-2018, 08:30 PM
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So you are about to the late 80's early 90's in your progression. This is where metal kind of falls out of favor (speaking as someone who was a teen from 1990 to 1996). However I would recommend Pantera's "Cowboys From Hell", "Vulgar Display of Power", and "Far Beyond Driven". Also a band I haven't seen mentioned is Danzig. I personally love their first three albums but to get a taste I recommend "Danzig 2 Lucifuge" and "Danzig 3 How the Gods Kill". More bluesy hard rock than metal but one of my personal favorites.
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Old 08-15-2018, 09:19 PM
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I have Pantera loaded for the next time I need a change of pace, I am also considering Helloween.

Thanks for bringing up Danzig. I was considering them because The Misfits were another band that was a part of my teenage years but I wasn't totally sure how his solo stuff fit in other than that it was supposed to be Metal.

I am going to give Black Metal a real genuine try again. I want to like it, but it may end up just not being for me. I might give mayhem another try from this side of things. Short term I think I'm diving into Florida Death Metal. I liked Death enough to keep heading that way.

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  #127  
Old 08-15-2018, 10:37 PM
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I liked Death: Scream Bloody Gore even though I can't understand a word he's saying. I may like it better because I can't understand a word he is saying, I'm not sure. But after Possessed and the first Bathory album I'm glad for something that's a little different sounding, and frankly a little more competent sounding.

That said, I didn't hate Possessed, but I don't think I'm keeping it. It really does feel like a poor man's Slayer, and while that may be unfair I can't shake it.

As for Bathory, I decided to take my jump forward in time suggestion and listened to Blood Fire Death, and THAT'S WHAT I WAS HOPING FOR WITH THE FIRST ALBUM! I'm not complicated, just eq the damn thing so that you can hear all the instruments! I may listen to more Bathory. I find them intriguing beyond believe even when I'm not crazy about the actual music.
My bold.

Cool! That's my favorite Bathory album. One thing to keep in mind with Bathory in connection with black metal, is that he was early at going towards a more folkish or viking-metal vibe.
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Old 08-15-2018, 10:59 PM
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That 'not really getting it' is pretty normal. You're listening to a niche genre that even proponents of the genre are conflicted about. You're not outright dismissing it, and that's awesome! Check out some newer stuff, and listen back on it in a while; You might still not like it, but you'll see a progression, and might also see a regression in certain aspects.
  #129  
Old 08-16-2018, 02:32 AM
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I traffic turned a 45 minute drive into a 2 hour drive today, so I decided screw the plan let's listen to Rein In Blood.

HOLY FUCK.

I was not prepared for that. No, scratch that, I was prepared, I just didn't expect it.
To trivialize either RIB or Monty Python: No one expects Reign In Blood. I will not bother trying to enumerate it's weapons, as it is a fool's game.

The only thing I have to add is: Can you imagine your first exposure to this record being at a party in '87, when you're already pretty stoned? I mean, you knew a little hardcore punk that was this hard, you'd heard Anthrax and S.O.D., but nothing this precise, this devastating. Then, they would go on to get better at it. Sometimes I think Seasons in the Abyss is my favorite Slayer record, but that's still a few years on, when I was on the verge of being in the thrall of another band (more about that in a sec).


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Oh, one other thought. I was pretty concerned that I would have difficulty taking Slayer seriously because of lyrical content. The satanic thing doesn't do anything for me and anyone ringing that bell too seriously is going to be a little hard to take (See Venom, who I liked for what they were but haven't listened to again and likely won't.)

But, here, no problem. Likely because it was really well written and at times clever. It ended up being like hip hop about subjects that don't resonate with me. It ends up being about the sound of the words more than the content.

Good stuff.

So, a couple of duds, but SOD and Slayer win out the day!
Yeah, Slayer's pentagram business is kind of misleading, similar to how anyone who really listens to Black Sabbath's lyrics isn't going to have a high opinion of worshiping Satan. They might have a more graphic method of describing the subject matter than the Smithsonian Channel, but they've got more clever and erudite subject matter than a lot of really heavy Heavy Metal bands. As long as you understand that they feel they don't need to explain that humans that torture other humans are bad, that should be understood among sane adults; they're really not a very offensive band.


So, at this point I feel I have to suggest a band that might be too experimental, maybe confrontational/extreme for some to embrace their whole catalog, but if you can handle S.O.D. and Slayer, you can probably enjoy it. The Melvins came to my notice after the release of Lysol* (there were disputes about the name). If you like the slower aspects of metal, I can't recommend Hung Bunny/Roman Bird Dog enough. To quote it's blurb from Boner records for probably an excessive time, "Like watching dough rise.". The drums get going at 7:55. Metal wasn't meant to be played on the radio like pop songs, anyway. I still haven't really heard anything heavier than that. Maybe slower, faster, de-tuned, more aggressive, but not by much. I'm still waiting for heavier, and noodling around to find the riff that might be myself. No luck yet.

They've got a LOT of releases. At least 25 studio albums. They'll go everywhere. You like fast? Try Sweet Willy Rollbar or Honey Bucket. Don't like controversial themes? No problem!
Buzz often constructs his lyrics from what appears to be truly unfettered streams of consciousness. That way, it doesn't interfere with the sound, and if there's a naughty meaning in the words, your own dumb ass subconscious provided them, and you might want to be ashamed. But, the limbs they'll go out on are very, very long. If you've gotten this far, try Skin Horse on for size, and know by that the end of this song, the Weird haven't yet turned professional in the Melvins' catalog, but they're thinking about it. They're Butthole Surfers' levels of odd when they want to be. In fact, an ex-Butthole Surfer is sometimes their bass player. It's a glorious thing.





*Among the vast number of reasons I married my wife, it was her copy of Lysol that I first heard, and now own by virtue/hazard of being married in a community property state. If we ever divorce, it's got as good a likelihood as any to be the possession we fight over.

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  #130  
Old 08-16-2018, 10:37 AM
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If you've gotten this far, try Skin Horse on for size, and know by that the end of this song, the Weird haven't yet turned professional in the Melvins' catalog, but they're thinking about it.
At exactly three minutes and twelve seconds into this song I was fully sold on this band.

I was aware of The Melvins, never categorized them as Metal they always occupied the same space in my brain that grunge did, or maybe the same space as Ween...either way I never actually checked them out.

I'm in.

Lysol is what you suggested, and Houdini is the one who's album cover I know. Good enough places to start?

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  #131  
Old 08-16-2018, 12:06 PM
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I was aware of The Melvins, never categorized them as Metal they always occupied the same space in my brain that grunge did, or maybe the same space as Ween...
Melvins are not metal; they are heavy. There's a lot of bands like this: not really metal, but still heavy enough and rocking enough that metalheads know of and appreciate the band/music; they're metal adjacent.

This is by no means a complete list, but I'm talking about bands/artists like: Melvins, Butthole Surfers, Suicidal Tendencies, Minor Threat, Sex Pistols, Van Halen, Frank Zappa, AC/DC, Ministry, Nine Inch Nails, Rush, Unsane, Helmet, etc.

Melvins are known and respected for their long-standing commitment to heavy music, Buzz's awesome hair and their live performances.

That video, by the way, is part of a show called House of Strombo, where a very cool guy has bands play in his living room for a crowd of about 30. I highly recommend subscribing and checking out other shows; the Power Trip show a couple of months ago was amazing! Thrash the way it was in high school and college!

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  #132  
Old 08-16-2018, 03:44 PM
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Speaking of metal adjacent, if you're in the mood for trying the experimental side of things, I'd recommend Crimes by The Blood Brothers. It came out in 2004 and is one of my all time favorites. Wikipedia classifies them as post hardcore, but I always considered them something more like noise metal. The songs really perfectly walk that line of being avant-garde but also having some semblance of a hook (IMHO, of course). This record (along with other more traditional post-hardcore bands) was really my gateway drug for getting into metalcore which I still love today (August Burns Red's most recent album is a total shredder IMO).

PS. sorry if I skipped ahead of Pantera in the progression, which should not be done, of course.
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Old 08-16-2018, 04:11 PM
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PS. sorry if I skipped ahead of Pantera in the progression, which should not be done, of course.


I am honestly a little frozen with too many choices right now.

I spent the day so far listening to the Melvins going back and relistening to Mercyful Fate (I am fully in love with King Diamonds voice) listening to the Bathory album Hammerheart (this no longer sounds like the previous band at all, but it was fun.) and listening to Celtic Frosts Morbid Tales, which after my flirtation with early Death and Black Metals feels like surprisingly comfortable and familiar territory. Other than getting a little bored with it before I got to the end Morbid Tales feels like it slots nicely into the Thrash stuff I had been listening to and enjoying (I have had Megadeath hooks rattling around in my head for days now) but also is seemingly one of the bridge bands to groups like Mayhem.

So, Pantera seem like a good next step as it keeps me from having to figure out where to go with Death metal. Morbid Angel probably?

Not sure. But Vulgar Display of power is up for the drive home.
  #134  
Old 08-16-2018, 10:12 PM
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At exactly three minutes and twelve seconds into this song I was fully sold on this band.

I was aware of The Melvins, never categorized them as Metal they always occupied the same space in my brain that grunge did, or maybe the same space as Ween...either way I never actually checked them out.

I'm in.

Lysol is what you suggested, and Houdini is the one who's album cover I know. Good enough places to start?
Bwahahaha, that's when the least metal part of the song starts. Glad you like them!

Oh yeah, they're two of my favorite records. I have always thought of The Melvins firmly as an offshoot of metal, unlike the others in his list. Even though they have some decidedly odd songs, their center seems to be Metal. If a Heavy Metal band can't play around, not take itself seriously and experiment, the style is bound for slow death.

Of course, I'm also who thinks of Zeppelin as Metal, and Grunge as an offshoot of Metal more than anything else. So, I may be a bit of a heretic.

(ETA: familiarity has bred contempt for me with Pantera, they're from a suburb totally surrounded by an adjacent suburb. There was a copy of Metal Magic in my possession as recently as a decade ago. Don't listen to that, please.)

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  #135  
Old 08-16-2018, 11:26 PM
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Bwahahaha, that's when the least metal part of the song starts. Glad you like them!
I figured you would appreciate the time stamp. I do enjoy weird stuff and they are wonderfully weird.

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(ETA: familiarity has bred contempt for me with Pantera, they're from a suburb totally surrounded by an adjacent suburb. There was a copy of Metal Magic in my possession as recently as a decade ago. Don't listen to that, please.)
I liked Pantera just fine. They struck me as kind of the weird offspring of Motorhead and Metallica and there is not much I can complain about there. I do wonder if they aren't mostly responsible for bands like Linkin Park though.

I do think maybe it's time we had a talk about death metal vocals. I haven't intentionally moved on to serious death metal but Canibal Corpse "Hammer Smashed Face" auto played after Pantera and... Those vocals are next level weird.
  #136  
Old 08-17-2018, 01:13 AM
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I figured you would appreciate the time stamp. I do enjoy weird stuff and they are wonderfully weird.
Hehhehe, I have probably 100-250 records you'd like, then, and more recommendations that I couldn't afford at the time and haven't tracked down yet.

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I liked Pantera just fine. They struck me as kind of the weird offspring of Motorhead and Metallica and there is not much I can complain about there. I do wonder if they aren't mostly responsible for bands like Linkin Park though.
If you think of them that way, don't listen to that link. It sounds like a really bad KISS record mixed with something else. They had two more very different records after that before they settled on the style that everyone thinks of as Pantera. I can't blame them for learning, changing and getting better, but they can't blame me for having a memory.

I'd really like to blame Linkin Park on Korn, but Linkin Park is Linkin Park's fault.


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I do think maybe it's time we had a talk about death metal vocals. I haven't intentionally moved on to serious death metal but Canibal Corpse "Hammer Smashed Face" auto played after Pantera and... Those vocals are next level weird.
Hehehe, I still can't really get into them, myself. I am pretty astounded at them, nonetheless. My best perception of them is analogous to what I think when people see a Jackson Pollock and say "My kid could do that!". Yeah, but your kid didn't do it, and Mr. Pollock did. I guess your kid wasn't brave or crazy enough to put his ass on the line, huh?

Oh, and I see something has been mentioned in passing, but not really recommended. It's long past the point where you need to actually explore some Hair Metal. Van Halen is the band that pretty much all Hair Metal bands want to be in their dark little hearts. I'm not going to recommend anything but Van Halen, because all the other Hair Metal bands I liked at the time honestly sucked in retrospect, and I don't know of any great ones. Guns 'n Roses might have tried to redeem the genre, but their efforts failed in my estimation. Heck, after VH parted ways with David Lee Roth, they might as well have been Huey Lewis and the News themselves.

So, I know you're overloaded with options at this point, but you should hear Everybody Wants Some (exquisite). If you have a radio and live in the US, you've almost assuredly heard Eruption/You Really Got Me (yep, a rock cover, but it's pretty damn metal) and Hot For Teacher*, you may have not heard Ice Cream Man. A seriously silly band.

If you listen to other Hair Metal bands, that's on you. I've done it, I don't recommend it. All I learned there was cheap, a little trashy, and involved taffeta. Listen to early Cheap Trick records instead, they at least rock.


*For the life of me, I can find zero things wrong with this song. It is drum heaven. Lars wishes he was half the drummer of Alex, and Alex is no Dale Crover or Dave Lombardo. Also, it's from the first new record my wife ever owned. I don't know if it was a gift or not, but she calls me the hesher.
  #137  
Old 08-17-2018, 08:46 PM
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The soundtrack to Bill and Ted's Bogus Journey.

I especially like Faith No More's The Perfect Crime, Tommy the Cat by Primus, and Go to Hell by Megadeth.
  #138  
Old 08-17-2018, 09:06 PM
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No one expects Reign In Blood.
Heh... Raining Blood is what I crank up to max volume whenever the kids' devices are far too loud and they've been told twice. I'm starting to suspect they like it.
  #139  
Old 08-18-2018, 09:36 AM
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Hehhehe, I have probably 100-250 records you'd like, then, and more recommendations that I couldn't afford at the time and haven't tracked down yet.



If you think of them that way, don't listen to that link. It sounds like a really bad KISS record mixed with something else. They had two more very different records after that before they settled on the style that everyone thinks of as Pantera. I can't blame them for learning, changing and getting better, but they can't blame me for having a memory.

I'd really like to blame Linkin Park on Korn, but Linkin Park is Linkin Park's fault.




Hehehe, I still can't really get into them, myself. I am pretty astounded at them, nonetheless. My best perception of them is analogous to what I think when people see a Jackson Pollock and say "My kid could do that!". Yeah, but your kid didn't do it, and Mr. Pollock did. I guess your kid wasn't brave or crazy enough to put his ass on the line, huh?

Oh, and I see something has been mentioned in passing, but not really recommended. It's long past the point where you need to actually explore some Hair Metal. Van Halen is the band that pretty much all Hair Metal bands want to be in their dark little hearts. I'm not going to recommend anything but Van Halen, because all the other Hair Metal bands I liked at the time honestly sucked in retrospect, and I don't know of any great ones. Guns 'n Roses might have tried to redeem the genre, but their efforts failed in my estimation. Heck, after VH parted ways with David Lee Roth, they might as well have been Huey Lewis and the News themselves.

So, I know you're overloaded with options at this point, but you should hear Everybody Wants Some (exquisite). If you have a radio and live in the US, you've almost assuredly heard Eruption/You Really Got Me (yep, a rock cover, but it's pretty damn metal) and Hot For Teacher*, you may have not heard Ice Cream Man. A seriously silly band.

If you listen to other Hair Metal bands, that's on you. I've done it, I don't recommend it. All I learned there was cheap, a little trashy, and involved taffeta. Listen to early Cheap Trick records instead, they at least rock.


*For the life of me, I can find zero things wrong with this song. It is drum heaven. Lars wishes he was half the drummer of Alex, and Alex is no Dale Crover or Dave Lombardo. Also, it's from the first new record my wife ever owned. I don't know if it was a gift or not, but she calls me the hesher.
As a guitar player I have heard a lot of Eddie Van Halen, I have views. He's enormously talented but has no restraint and will ALWAYS plays 4 notes where one would have worked. I find him hard to listen to the way I find people like Yngwei Malmstein hard to listen to. I have tons of respect for Van Halen but it rubs me the wrong way a bit. I might tolerate him better if he wasn't VAN HALEN and I wasn't a guitar player. Dunno. That said, I have really only heard the hits. I'll give a full album a shot.

Moving forward, I feel like maybe I kinda get early death metal at least. Other than Hammer Smash Face I haven't really listened to anything by the later bands. But I gave Morbid Angel a listen and it's fine but it isn't really doing it for me.

I also went back to the "stuff I liked" playlist that I made and the stuff that grabs me the most is the Big 4 Thrash stuff. I suppose this should not be too much of a surprise. It has more teeth than Judas Priest but hasn't thrown the idea of actual songs out the window yet the way that Morbid Angel or Possessed seems to have. I still enjoy Death, they are pretty fun (Scream Bloody Gore and Leprosy are on my liked list at this point), but again, they are writing songs not JUST being loud and fast. I hate to keep coming back to Slayer comparisons, but they are the only ones I have listened to so far that seem to be able to strike the balance between all out aggression and actual song writing. Not that I have listened to a ton. I'm open to suggestions.

On the Black Metal side I do keep coming back to Bathory Blood Fire Death. I can't say if I specifically like it or not, but I do find myself wanting to listen to it. Surprisingly the same is true of Darkthrone A Blaze in the Northern Sky. Again, saying that I like it is wrong. I finish listening to it and I need to put on David Bowie or something sort of poppy to balance myself out, but I keep coming back to it so clearly something is there. I'll keep at it and maybe try the Satyricon album Plumpudding linked too. Going slow seems to be the ticket here.

In the mean time, I think I will head in the direction of Doom for a bit using the Post Bo put up as a guide. I'll probably listen to St. Vitus Born too Late and the Kyuss album Bo linked to. I may have time for more, depending on things.
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Old 08-18-2018, 07:17 PM
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Doom is a much appreciated change of pace. I'm feeling like I'm firmly on familiar musical ground here. It makes for good background music too. Had to so some paperwork today and put together a list of Doom Metal to listen to and it was perfect accompaniment. I wasn't doing super close listening but I felt like I enjoyed each band a little more than the previous. I listened to, in order

Saint Vitus - Born Too Late
Candlemass - Epicus Doomicus Metallicus
Trouble - Psalm 9 (which has a killer cover of Tales of Brave Ulysses my favorite Cream song)
Kyuss - Blues for the Red Sun which I really dug. And it turns out that they eventually turn into Queens of the Stone age, a band I used to dig quite a bit in college... Oh and their bass player was in the Dwarves! Well heck that is awesome and surprising.

Next up are Sleep and Electric Wizard. I am also realizing that when I was in my band we were trying to make Doom metal we just didn't know it. But we more or less wanted to sound exactly like Kyuss, we just didn't know they existed. Also, we were not close to this good. Interesting stuff.

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Old 08-20-2018, 07:40 PM
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One point I've glossed over a bit is that many black metal bands in norway started as death metal bands: Old Funeral - Devoured Carcass

They turned into Immortal, most known for At The Heart of Winter.

Same with Darkthrone.

Another thing I glossed over was that after Euronymous, we saw the rise of triggered drums, which enabled drummers to play even faster. Some embraced it, like Hellhammer, some hated it, like my former bandmate (He was trying to beat Hellhammer's world record in blastbeating with double bass-drums and no triggering, so I guess that has something to do with it).

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  #142  
Old 08-20-2018, 08:26 PM
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Wait, triggered drums? Like they aren't physically pushing the kicks? Is that how they get those insane percussion sounds out of the kick drums?

I'm not sure how I feel about this.
  #143  
Old 08-20-2018, 10:11 PM
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I'm gonna go advanced here and based on your reaction to Iron Maiden, I'm gonna recommend something that you may not be ready for. This is a progressive death metal band from Melbourne: Ne Obliviscaris - And Plague Flowers The Kaleidoscope.
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Ok. So I get what you are saying about maybe not being ready. Fiddles and acoustic instruments were awesome, then the produced stuff came in... It's a little slick for my taste but yeah good stuff, then the vocals came in and my brain broke. It's not even that I dislike it, but it's like it went from being music that I understood to being something entirely different with no transition. Not bad but very confusing.
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Both singers have great voices, but a great voice doesn't matter that much to me honestly unless it's being used to improve the song as a whole.
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Singer who doesn't so much sign as shout in the general direction of the melody? Check
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I do think maybe it's time we had a talk about death metal vocals. I haven't intentionally moved on to serious death metal but Canibal Corpse "Hammer Smashed Face" auto played after Pantera and... Those vocals are next level weird.
Ok; let's talk about them.

First, there's a bunch of distinct types of vocals. The most prominent is known as CMVs: cookie monster vocals. Hopefully that's self-explanatory. Then we've got high pitched demons, low pitched demons, demon frog, demon pig, demon goat, etc. But CMVs are the basic death metal vocal technique.

So go all the way back to, oh, the early 1970s. Janis Joplin was wailing her fucking her heart out. Iggy Stooge was screaming into the mic for a few years at that point. Lots of rock music featured various screams, wails, shrieks and general cries of agony, anger and/or ecstasy. Punk rock came along and since many of it's practitioners were possessed of an arguable abundance of natural talents, screaming and shouting (tunefully) became even more of a thing within that genre. Rap came along at the same time and helped remove the necessity of being able to carry a melody for someone that wanted to be a star.

Meanwhile, heavy metal loved the raspy, brutish sound of a whiskey-soaked brawler-type voice. AC/DC alone would have been enough to show that this kind of voice could totally fucking rock, but I think Lemmy's voice sealed the deal. So soon we had people adding MORE bite, more growl, more grit to their vocals. Eventually, someone figured out that shouting louder and louder was gonna hurt eventually, so they started experimenting with how to get that kind of voice without it coming naturally: they growled or shrieked.

In time, this just evolved (or de-volved) into the CMVs that we know today.

I know that they can be hard to deal with; let me tell you how I approached it.

First, I like shouted vocals. I like old blues songs where there's call and response stuff and I like when a singer's passion overwhelms them and they let loose and overdrive the mic and sound console a little bit. I like gang choruses. I like the shouting in punk rock.

But I also like other, affected vocals. I like it when Ministry sings thru a small bullhorn (or Butthole Surfers, etc.). I like it when they record the vocals as played thru a shitty old radio. I love when there's tons of reverb and delay and it all runs together into a mush. One of my favorite songs is Steve Reich's Come Out.

And I don't need to understand the words to enjoy a song. I can listen to songs in other languages and enjoy the hell out of them even tho I have no idea what the lyrics are about. And even some songs sung in English are so over-wrought that it can be hard to understand what Mariah Carey or Whitney Houston or whoever is actually singing.

That last bit is really key: I don't need to understand the words being sung as long as I enjoy the vocal performance and how it fits within the song.

So the thing I most had to overcome was just the repulsion and weirdness of it. Shouting is something that most of us can do. It happens naturally when we try and speak very loudly. But CMVs are so deliberate, I wasn't sure how to take them. FFS, it actually sounded like the godddamned Cookie Monster was trying to sing on some of the old stuff! It was ridiculous! How could I take it seriously when a muppet was providing vocals about death and dismemberment?

So it occurred to me to look at where they really first took hold: black metal. Black metal is huge on theatrics. It's the only surviving genre of metal that still uses makeup regularly; heck it even has it's own name: corpsepaint. The studded leather is still a huge part of the 'look' of black metal. And the CMVs are their way of bringing some theatrics to the music, IMO. The whole point of black metal is to out-Satanic or out-despair everything that ever came before, and one way to do this is to stop having people sing about demons and just let the demons sing the songs themselves.

I started to listen to them as tho the singer were playing the part of a demon, and they suddenly made lots more sense to me artistically. I wouldn't argue that's the case in their minds, you understand, but as a way for me to make sense of what was happening on an artistic level, as a stylistic choice and not just acceding to their limitations, it helped me get over the hump to where I could appreciate it for what it brought to the music and for the individual performances themselves to know that singing the lyrics is also about performing as the singer of the lyrics.

Now, after decades of listening to it, it not only seems normal to me, I'm disappointed in vocalists who have no growl in their voice. I'm not alone in my tastes; there's a terrific website called No Clean Singing. They're one of my regular places to read about and hear new metal.

So now let me mention that link at the top of this post.

I hear Ne Obliviscaris as a grand theatrical band. I hear a man singing and a demon who is also narrating and interacting with the man; they are point & counterpoint to the musical vignette being presented. One is as important as the other in their music.

So hopefully that makes sense. Maybe it'll help you to intellectualize it like it helped me get over that last little hump from "this is ridiculous" to "ohhhh I see what they're doing now".

[/shrug]

Let's try something a little less-CMV and more whiskey-soaked bellow, but with clean singing providing a contrast for both musical and lyrical purposes. This band is, to be fair, one of the leading progressive death metal bands. They are my go-to whenever I need to convince someone that death metal isn't just and just isn't what they think it is (I play them the Damnation album, in case anyone is wondering). Check out Opeth - Master's Apprentices. I found a video with lyrics so you can see more easily why two different voices are used in this particular song.

And I only do that to remind you that CMVs, etc. are all deliberate stylistic choices, made in furtherance of the goal to make a particular kind of music. I can't understand opera singers, but I can appreciate their talent. I can't understand Japanese, but I love to listen to Bo Ningen (awesome Japanese psych-rock/jazz band that is somehow based in the UK). And I can't understand lots of metal vocals, but I still rock the fuck out to the music anyway (and now actively like the harsh vocals, too; grindcore ftw!).

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 08-20-2018 at 10:15 PM.
  #144  
Old 08-20-2018, 11:10 PM
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Morbid Angel probably?
Florida deathmetal was mentioned earlier - there can't be mention of it without referencing Morbid Angel, formed in 1983, who gained a loyal following, recording tape demos and trading with everyone.
And the Florida deathmetal scene in general - in the 80's it was a truly burgeoning scene, with Scott Burns' Morrisound Studios as the recording epicentre for many great DM bands.
(Someone correct me if I wrong, but I don't think MA actually ever recorded with Scott - but he seemed to do everyone else)
If you think you're ready, Morbid Angel's 1989 Altars of Madness is widely considered to be one of the seminal deathmetal albums.

Another crucial deathmetal album from this scene was Terrorizer's World Downfall LP. ('89)

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Originally Posted by NAF1138 View Post
Wait, triggered drums? Like they aren't physically pushing the kicks? Is that how they get those insane percussion sounds out of the kick drums?

I'm not sure how I feel about this.
I used them when I was playing. The trigger pads can be adjusted for variance in attack (how hard the pedal is struck). I could program my Alessis D-5 for a light attack, which means you can lightly strike the pedal and you'll hear a good, loud kick sound though the PA. This was necessary if I was to achieve double kick beats at roughly 150 - 175 bpm (beats per minute).
You will find the vast majority of metal drummers using triggers.

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Originally Posted by Snowboarder Bo View Post
And I don't need to understand the words to enjoy a song. I can listen to songs in other languages and enjoy the hell out of them even tho I have no idea what the lyrics are about. And even some songs sung in English are so over-wrought that it can be hard to understand what Mariah Carey or Whitney Houston or whoever is actually singing.

That last bit is really key: I don't need to understand the words being sung as long as I enjoy the vocal performance and how it fits within the song.
Totally agreed. I can't believe how many stupid arguments I used to get in with nobs who'd insist that a song can't be appreciated properly if one can't hear all the words. And I couldn't care less what the lyrics are as long as there's no sexism, homophobia, or racism, even if the vocals are incoherently growled - if I simply know of such questionable lyrics, (without ever being able to actually discern what they're saying), I'll still take issue with that.

NAF - heh, if you think you're ready for grindcore at some point...

Last edited by Guest-starring: Id!; 08-20-2018 at 11:10 PM.
  #145  
Old 08-21-2018, 11:39 AM
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Wait, triggered drums? Like they aren't physically pushing the kicks? Is that how they get those insane percussion sounds out of the kick drums?

I'm not sure how I feel about this.
They are still playing physically, it's just that a recorded sample is being triggered by the hit instead of producing an acoustic sound into a microphone. That means the drummer can play faster because of less physical exertion. It also means less variation in the sound, which can work for some genres like industrial metal, but not with others like thrash.
  #146  
Old 08-21-2018, 12:17 PM
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It also means less variation in the sound, which can work for some genres like industrial metal, but not with others like thrash.
Actually my Alessis not only had too many different sounds but also different modulations and pitches of each sound.

Once played a gig with duck quacks programmed into the kicks.

Was thinking about a great Bolt Thrower album from '96 but that could be throwing the chronology, here, out of whack a bit.
  #147  
Old 08-21-2018, 12:29 PM
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If you think you're ready, Morbid Angel's 1989 Altars of Madness is widely considered to be one of the seminal deathmetal albums.

Another crucial deathmetal album from this scene was Terrorizer's World Downfall LP. ('89)
I am going to come back to Morbid Angel. I gave "Alters of Madness" a shot last week and found it, well I didn't not like it but I absolutely didn't get it. And I can't just keep saying that everything I don't connect with its because it's less good than Slayer. They are doing a different thing and I need to wrap my head around it enough to at least, if I still decide I don't like it, have a better explanation than that. So I will absolutely come back, but that is the album that made me decide I needed a break from trying to figure out extreme metal. Too much too fast maybe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plumpudding View Post
They are still playing physically, it's just that a recorded sample is being triggered by the hit instead of producing an acoustic sound into a microphone. That means the drummer can play faster because of less physical exertion. It also means less variation in the sound, which can work for some genres like industrial metal, but not with others like thrash.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guest-starring: Id! View Post
I used them when I was playing. The trigger pads can be adjusted for variance in attack (how hard the pedal is struck). I could program my Alessis D-5 for a light attack, which means you can lightly strike the pedal and you'll hear a good, loud kick sound though the PA. This was necessary if I was to achieve double kick beats at roughly 150 - 175 bpm (beats per minute).
You will find the vast majority of metal drummers using triggers.
Ok thanks for that explanation guys, that gives me helpful context. I'm going to put drum triggers into the same mental category as something like a delay or chorus effect on guitar. Just a tool to give you a sound that would otherwise be more or less physically impossible, but still a tool that needs to be used thoughtfully. I just didn't know this existed.

Quote:

NAF - heh, if you think you're ready for grindcore at some point...
Well that makes a nice segue to Snowboarder Bo's post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowboarder Bo View Post
[snip long informative post]
Let's try something a little less-CMV and more whiskey-soaked bellow, but with clean singing providing a contrast for both musical and lyrical purposes. This band is, to be fair, one of the leading progressive death metal bands. They are my go-to whenever I need to convince someone that death metal isn't just and just isn't what they think it is (I play them the Damnation album, in case anyone is wondering). Check out Opeth - Master's Apprentices. I found a video with lyrics so you can see more easily why two different voices are used in this particular song.
First, I like that song. The vocals, are still a bit much for me, but not in an impossible way, just in a "need a second to adjust to this" sort of way. And I see what you mean about the deliberateness of the choice to sing clean or not. And your post did make me realize that some of this is me lacking context still. Because the thing is, I DON'T need good vocals, and in fact actively tend to prefer "bad" singers. Heck, cookie monsterness doesn't' even necessarily bug me. I like Tom Waits, a lot.

I also dig weird. Idiot Flesh, Mr. Bungle, Primus. No problems.

So why did Hammer Smashed Face send me over the edge into "I just can't even?" Some of it is clearly them being totally unintelligible. That's something I am going to have to just adjust to. I'm used to vocals being very very important or non existent, this particular use of vocals is confusing on a gut reactions level. I think also maybe it is a bit of too much too fast. Too many things that are still new together too quickly? Blast beats, crazy vocals, musical idioms that are unfamiliar all together is too much. S.O.D. and Slayer work because there is a level of familiarity I can hook into with punk and even hip hop. NWOBHM works because it's still guitar, drum and bass doing guitar drum and bass things that I'm used to. Death sort of works on that same level. But the real Death Metal stuff gets rid of most of what I find familiar on purpose and focuses on the stuff that is strange.

Interestingly the choice for Cannibal Corpse to sing like that makes more sense to me than for Ne Obliviscaris to use it, but maybe it's time I go back and give that one another listen too, because honestly the Opeth track probably would not have made sense to me then either at that point. It still almost doesn't but it kind of does. But Opeth's music is something I can hook onto even when the vocals are surprising. I watched the video (lyrics helped, thanks for that) a couple of times and then found them performing the same song live (sometimes live performance helps too). They seem like cool dudes. Great musicians.

But back to things making more sense now than 3 weeks ago. I tried listening to Mastodon when it was first suggested back at the start of the thread and it made no sense to me. But I listened to The Leviathan 3 times in a row yesterday. Mastodon is a good band guys. Do people know this? People probably know this. Oh, they won a ton of awards and topped multiple best lists? Yeah, people know. They seemed like a logical progression for the Doom metal thing I was doing and...they were! Kinda, Doomy/Thrashy/Proggy. I liked it very much. Also, some of the stuff is becoming less alien, so time and listening to less extreme than Cannibal Corpse but more extreme than...Metallica? is probably where I should head.

I keep seeing Animals as Leaders, Killswitch Engage and Lamb of God on similar lists as the ones Mastodon are on, Opeth too, so I have some modern stuff to check out. But I do want to crack this Death metal thing. Oh, I also listened to Gojira "From Mars to Sirius" that was pretty cool. Not as good as Mastodon though, man I really liked that album.

It's still crazy to me that there is this GIANT world of music that I more or less had no idea existed. From what I can tell this is a good time for new metal too.

Here is what is on my list of stuff I plan to listen to but have not yet listened to now (skipping past Helloween and the Doom Metal stuff I found which all seems self explanatory): I am not totally sure where I got all these from:

Death metal/Grindcore?
Sepultura - Chaos AD (Mahaloth already turned me onto Roots, which I did like,though again with the vocals)
Hatebreed - Satisfaction is the Death of Desire
Napalm Death - Fear Emptiness Despair
Pig Destroyer - Terrifyer
Cannibal Corpse - The Bleeding and Torture
Gorguts - From Wisdom to Hate
Nile - Those Whom the Gods Detest
At the Gates - Slaughter of the Soul
Hate Eternal - I Monarch
Entombed - Left Hand Path
Carcass - Heart Work
Autopsy - Mental Funeral


Black Metal:

Mayhem - A Grand Declaration of War
Satyricon - Dark Medieval Times
Khold - Hundre Ar Gammal
Gorgoroth - Pentagram
Summoning - Stronghold
Tiamat - The Astral Sleep


Other?
:
Barroness: Yellow & Green
Mastodon: Once More Round the Sun
Opeth: It seems that their entire catalog is the general recommendation.

So, if you want to add to the list or have a place on the list you think I should go first, have at it.
  #148  
Old 08-21-2018, 02:54 PM
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My favorite metal band continues to be Nevermore, with “This Godless Endeavor” my favorite album by them. But lately I’ve been listening to a lot of YOB and VHOL, and some female fronted bands like Stolen Babies, Draconian, One Eyed Doll and Chelsea Wolfe.
  #149  
Old 08-21-2018, 03:02 PM
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Actually my Alessis not only had too many different sounds but also different modulations and pitches of each sound.

Once played a gig with duck quacks programmed into the kicks.

Was thinking about a great Bolt Thrower album from '96 but that could be throwing the chronology, here, out of whack a bit.
Ah, of course. Some guys I knew had a device that just recorded a kick there and then. They'd kick a bit until they were satisfied, then saved it and triggered it for every kick.

In one of my bands now we use an electronic one. In fact I play "drums" in another band: it's just a pure-data sample-player patch I trigger with a silicone keyboard. Much easier for me to blast with my fingers!

Quack-kick sounds pretty awesome!
  #150  
Old 08-21-2018, 03:23 PM
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For extreme grindcore, relishing in the weird, I'd give Agoraphobic Nosebleed - Altered States of America a listen. Bo also introduced me (and probably many others) to The Invasion Discography by Gigantic Brain.
Keep in mind, you might wanna keep off them for a while, as they are truly crazy.

For Khold, I'd check out the album Mørke Gravers Kammer. This is more down-tempo black metal, and not as "extreme" as some of the other stuff I've linked to.

I'd also recommend you to go back to Deathcrush at some point, now that you've been exposed to more stuff.

Mastodon is great. Really enjoy their shows. They warmed up for Slayer back in the day on Slayers Europe tour. Bought Leviathan and Blood Mountain straight away.
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