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  #201  
Old 09-06-2018, 11:09 AM
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Kobal2, what's your thoughts on Finnish melodic metal?

Symphonic metal, power metal and speed really ain't my thing, but when it comes to Finnish and some Swedish stuff there's an undeniable (IMO) quality I can't resist: Above all else it's fun! No amount over-elaborate guitar work and wanky synthesizer seems to counteract that when it comes to a lot of Finnish metal.

I'll also admit to Finntroll (more folk metal than anything else) being one of my favorite bands ever.
  #202  
Old 09-08-2018, 10:59 PM
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NAF: One more thing, I recommended Windir earlier in the thread. Now you might appreciate it more than when you begun this. If you listen to it, have high volume, keep glaziers, snow covered forests and freezing mountains in mind, and you might get it. Both Arntor and 1184 are great albums.

This band swept norway off it's feet, by the way. Instant hit. After the main guy died they remade Windir into Vreid. I don't like it, but that band also went off the walls on the charts.
  #203  
Old 09-09-2018, 07:51 AM
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NAF: One more thing, I recommended Windir earlier in the thread. Now you might appreciate it more than when you begun this. If you listen to it, have high volume, keep glaziers, snow covered forests and freezing mountains in mind, and you might get it. Both Arntor and 1184 are great albums.

This band swept norway off it's feet, by the way. Instant hit. After the main guy died they remade Windir into Vreid. I don't like it, but that band also went off the walls on the charts.

Thanks for the suggestion. It also reminds me that I have been ignoring Black Metal and that I might be able to appreciate Black Metal on the whole more now than the last time I tried. It is probably time to get back to it.

I was reading somewhere that the drums in black metal, which were giving me so much trouble, were supposed to create almost a solid ocean of sound that everything else floated on top of. I'm not sure I was viewing them that way before. They decidedly didn't come across that way. But maybe that was the change in perspective I needed. Won't know till I try. I'll make this coming week a black metal week and see how things go.

Edit: I also gave Finntroll a proper listen a couple of weeks ago and they are fun in a very weird silly way. Again, didn't hear it at all when you first suggested them, so familiarity with the genre is helping.

Last edited by NAF1138; 09-09-2018 at 07:52 AM.
  #204  
Old 09-10-2018, 01:33 AM
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Kobal2, what's your thoughts on Finnish melodic metal?

Symphonic metal, power metal and speed really ain't my thing, but when it comes to Finnish and some Swedish stuff there's an undeniable (IMO) quality I can't resist: Above all else it's fun! No amount over-elaborate guitar work and wanky synthesizer seems to counteract that when it comes to a lot of Finnish metal.

I'll also admit to Finntroll (more folk metal than anything else) being one of my favorite bands ever.

Love it ! Nightwish are Finns, and yeah Finntroll is good fun as far as folk metal goes - it's not really my jam in the sense that I probably wouldn't listen to it for a full road trip ; but I always smile when it comes up in my random playlist. Bran Barr is another good (although completely different - celtic- rather than hummpa-based) folk metal band. Speaking of celtic folk metal, Cruachan I like less, but they have a lot of fans


Then you've got Children of Bodom which is melodic death metal and also really fucking good. I don't think I know any other band who does what they do - death metal tends to be too metal for me to listen to for very long. Not so with Children for some reason, even though nobody would accuse them of softness . Well, maybe for the wanky synthetizer part . But they're just so good !
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  #205  
Old 09-10-2018, 12:59 PM
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Yeah, Children of Bodom is what I'm talking about! Hatebreeder is a great album I think.

Finntroll is the only band I've heard that managed to tastefully incorporate joik (traditional sami singing) into metal. And jaw harp!

I had a demo of Cruachan, I liked it quite a bit. Haven't liked anything else I've heard of them though. Props for having a pretty cool vocalist.


I wanna add this song to your playlist, NAF: Enslaved - Vetrarnótt

Perfectly illustrates the atmosphere I mentioned earlier.
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Old 09-10-2018, 07:39 PM
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Megadeth - Peace sells, rust in piece, so far..so good..so what. all masterpieces, cant go wrong.
  #207  
Old 09-11-2018, 09:39 PM
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Yeah, Children of Bodom is what I'm talking about! Hatebreeder is a great album I think.

Finntroll is the only band I've heard that managed to tastefully incorporate joik (traditional sami singing) into metal. And jaw harp!

I had a demo of Cruachan, I liked it quite a bit. Haven't liked anything else I've heard of them though. Props for having a pretty cool vocalist.


I wanna add this song to your playlist, NAF: Enslaved - Vetrarnótt

Perfectly illustrates the atmosphere I mentioned earlier.
I listened to this out of curiosity (disclaimer: I'm old). It would have appealed to me more if it had been shorter. There seemed to be a prodigious amount of repetition. I guess there's a risk of that in any ten minute song, though.It's definitely not in the "I don't see how anybody can listen to this" category.
  #208  
Old 09-11-2018, 10:24 PM
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I wanna add this song to your playlist, NAF: Enslaved - Vetrarnótt

Perfectly illustrates the atmosphere I mentioned earlier.
Oh, I liked this. Finally the drums make sense in this. I was listening to Emperor In the Nightside Eclipse today and the drums made sense there too, but they did that mostly, it seemed, by toning down the aggressive drumming. Enslaved don't do that, they just figure out how to make the aggressive drums work. The vocals don't but that's starting to bug me less and less just generally. I'll post more about Emperor later. I'm going to listen to them some more and a couple other black metal bands over the next couple of days. See if I can't get things to click. I have Enslaved's album Isa on my list but wasn't planning on listening to it this week, but now maybe I will. Also Dark throne Transylvania Hunger (I'm moving on from A Blaze in the Northern Sky) and Khold (don't remember what album) something else too that escapes me at the moment. I'll post about all of them this weekend.

Good stuff. Thanks.

One thing that I have seemed to notice about Black metal, it's WAY better on headphones than in the car. Death Metal and Thrash, not much difference between how I listen... Maybe even a little bit better in the car? But Black Metal decidedly loses something when it's not in headphones anymore.

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  #209  
Old 09-11-2018, 10:34 PM
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Bran Barr is another good (although completely different - celtic- rather than hummpa-based) folk metal band. Speaking of celtic folk metal, Cruachan I like less, but they have a lot of fans


Then you've got Children of Bodom which is melodic death metal and also really fucking good. I don't think I know any other band who does what they do - death metal tends to be too metal for me to listen to for very long. Not so with Children for some reason, even though nobody would accuse them of softness . Well, maybe for the wanky synthetizer part . But they're just so good !
Do you have any album suggestions for Brian Barr, Curachan or Children of Bodom? I'll add them to my (now quite long) playlist. They sound like they are worth checking out. I'm thinking next week maybe I'll go for the powerful melodic/symphonic stuff you suggested (though I have to warn you, I'm iffy on Nightwish already but it's all worth a fair shake.)

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  #210  
Old 09-12-2018, 05:36 AM
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Oh, I liked this. Finally the drums make sense in this. I was listening to Emperor In the Nightside Eclipse today and the drums made sense there too, but they did that mostly, it seemed, by toning down the aggressive drumming. Enslaved don't do that, they just figure out how to make the aggressive drums work. The vocals don't but that's starting to bug me less and less just generally. I'll post more about Emperor later. I'm going to listen to them some more and a couple other black metal bands over the next couple of days. See if I can't get things to click. I have Enslaved's album Isa on my list but wasn't planning on listening to it this week, but now maybe I will. Also Dark throne Transylvania Hunger (I'm moving on from A Blaze in the Northern Sky) and Khold (don't remember what album) something else too that escapes me at the moment. I'll post about all of them this weekend.

Good stuff. Thanks.

One thing that I have seemed to notice about Black metal, it's WAY better on headphones than in the car. Death Metal and Thrash, not much difference between how I listen... Maybe even a little bit better in the car? But Black Metal decidedly loses something when it's not in headphones anymore.
Glad you like it! The album is hit and miss for me, but I really like the first and the second track. Enslaved is more of a folkish/viking black metal band, but it gets more pronounced in later albums. Isa is very different, but there are good songs in there. The title track is great. Of the albums in between Vikinglir Veldi and Isa, I've only owned Eld and Mardraum and I love both.

Your last paragraph reminds me of before I got studio monitors: I would run around testing my mixes on different headphones, car stereo's and home stereo's, low end and cheap, to try to find a point where it kinda worked on all systems. What a hassle...

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I listened to this out of curiosity (disclaimer: I'm old). It would have appealed to me more if it had been shorter. There seemed to be a prodigious amount of repetition. I guess there's a risk of that in any ten minute song, though.It's definitely not in the "I don't see how anybody can listen to this" category.
It is definitely on the long side with lots of repetition, and I think that's deliberate. It plays into the 'getting lost in a blizzard' atmosphere many black metal bands were going for. This songs title translates to Winter Night.
  #211  
Old 09-12-2018, 05:52 AM
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Just to clarify: Isa is different, in that it's a marked divergence in sound and song structure for the band. The songs are shorter and contain many more shifts in dynamics and rhythm. Instead of a solid wall of sound with some breaks in between, they move onto a more progressive approach to their music.
  #212  
Old 09-12-2018, 11:11 AM
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Some black metal that I like:

Abbath - Winterbane - kick-ass song from former Immortal frontman

Nekrodelirium - Grief - I think I remember reading earlier this year that Sandra Stensen joined another band but I can't remember which one
Nekrodelirium - Distorted Device

Frantic Amber - Ghost - more like blackened death metal but hey; Sandra Stensen's former band
Frantic Amber - Burning Insight

Absu - Earth Ripper - okay, blackened thrash; sue me

In all of those songs, I notice a lot more willingness to allow dynamics, rhythmic shift and chord changes than in black metal that I don't like. Kvlt stuff like Leviathan and Xasthur is just too static (unchanging) and too dense for my tastes.

To some degree I think that artists are now coming along that are incorporating the cool things about black metal with other genres and/or seeing other influences creep into new black metal. For instance, the very palatable arena rock/guitar wizard/black metal concoction:

Rebel Wizard - Drunk on the wizdom of unicorn semen
Rebel Wizard - The poor and ridiculous alchemy of Christ and Lucifer and us all

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  #213  
Old 09-12-2018, 04:43 PM
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I think the penny might have dropped for me on Black Metal.
I was listening to Satyricon: Dark Medieval Times and I realized... This is basically an evil sounding version of Brian Eno. I don't know that this is intentional on their part or not, but it made things kind of make sense I think.

Enjoying Satyricon quite a bit. It feels like something I might only like when I'm in the right mood, but it makes for nice background music in the right circumstances.

Last edited by NAF1138; 09-12-2018 at 04:45 PM.
  #214  
Old 09-12-2018, 05:04 PM
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Ok, now I guess I need to talk about Opeth. I want to like Opeth so much. I really really do. And when they are doing their heavy stuff I REALLY like them. But then they transition into the softer stuff and they sound like Creed and I kind of can't handle it. I have sat down to listen to Blackwater Park 5 times and each time I keep turning it off about halfway through to put on Mastodon or Bolt Thrower or Slayer instead. I like the proggy arty idea, I would very much like to hear more bands that do very heavy death metal sounding things that are very progressive like that (I kinda liked Gojira and the little I have heard of Between the Burried and Me I have enjoyed, they are also going to get a full listen this weekend) but... Maybe I just need a different Opeth album? Do they do harder than Blackwater Park? Because that one isn't working for me at all.
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Not really. Certain songs are harder, but not a whole album. I love the band and respect the hell out of them, but with every song being it's own 12-minute mini-epic amalgam of styles, I'm okay with them popping up on shuffle rather than listening to a whole album.
I like Opeth. If you want a harder album, go with Deliverance. Damnation and Deliverance were a pair of albums that were written/recorded at the same time. Damnation was a mellower, proggier album, while Deliverance was a heavier album. I like the Damnation side of things (Damnation and Deliverance are my favorites of theirs), but it sounds like Deliverance may be up your alley. (Though the album is still a bunch of 12 minute mini-epics.)
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Old 09-13-2018, 10:06 AM
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Good times ahead: High on fire is coming to Oslo in a couple of weeks! A week after Melvins will return! Then Godflesh!
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Old 09-13-2018, 05:15 PM
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Ooh. I found another band I like that hasn't been mentioned. I started poking around in Black Metal stuff based on what I was digging about the Norwegian scene and came across the "band" (it's one guy) called Panopticon. The album Road to the North is what Allmusic.com suggested so it's what I listened to. This is awesome! It's kinda like the grander slow dark stuff that is going on in some of the doom and black metal bands I have dug, layered on top of just insane aggressive drums and guitars, and then there is kind of a quasi death metal vocal, but buried in the mix like a black metal vocal, and sometimes there is bluegrass music and mandolins. It's nuts. Really really good. It's listed as "American Black Metal" but feels sorta like it's coming from a similar place as a lot of prog death metal. But what do I know.

You guys know them?

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  #217  
Old 09-14-2018, 12:45 AM
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Do you have any album suggestions for Brian Barr, Curachan or Children of Bodom? I'll add them to my (now quite long) playlist. They sound like they are worth checking out. I'm thinking next week maybe I'll go for the powerful melodic/symphonic stuff you suggested (though I have to warn you, I'm iffy on Nightwish already but it's all worth a fair shake.)

Bran Barr is a tiny band that only ever put out two albums, and I haven't listened to their new one, so that one's easy : Les Chroniques de Naerg. For Children of Bodom, Hatebreeder and Follow the Reaper are my personal favorites. Can't help with Cruachan much however, as I only know a handful of tracks.


Oh, and for Nightwish since you're coming down from black metal you might like to kick off with Oceanborn. While I prefer Wishmaster or Century Child, Oceanborn is a bit more black metal-y sounding, with blast beats and growls and such on some tracks. Could make the transition easier ? I 'unno .


Anyone wanna tackle nü metal next ?
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Old 09-14-2018, 08:58 PM
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NAF - especially on first listen you'll find this shit too herky-jerky and fucked up, but I'll throw some Dillinger Escape Plan at ya anyway, if you're looking for a change-up. Some call it math metal, with different parts and time signature changes coming out the yin-yang.

Metal purists like John McEntee (Incantation) have gone on record for absolutely lambasting this band as basically being too flashy, which I'd agree, to an extent, but it's also for that same reason is what makes it a pleasure to see them actually pull this shit off, live. Jumping and flailing about the stage, they'll suddenly just stop on a dime, then boom back to more razor-sharp, controlled chaos.

So if it's a struggle to listen to them, just imagine them actually replicating this shit onstage.
  #219  
Old 09-14-2018, 10:25 PM
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Anyone wanna tackle nü metal next ?
Jeebus hell, no.
  #220  
Old 09-17-2018, 04:09 PM
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Still sorting through the Black Metal scene. Finding Panopticon made me realize there is apperantly a whole wave of American Black Metal that is being made right now.

I think in general I prefer the Atmospheric and folk infused Black Metal. I still can't quite get into Dark Throne, but Emperor has been awesome and I'm really digging Enslaved too. There is a band called Wolves in The Throne Room which seem to have been slapped with a hipster metal label, but they seem pretty cool to me.

I... I suspect that I would actually like Burzum a lot based on the snippets that I have heard, but after reading a lot about the Black Metal scene I don't think I want to support that guy even with Spotify streams. He's a bad guy. I actually find a lot of stuff about the early black metal scene to be somewhat disheartening. I watched the documentary Until the Light Takes us and was pretty disappointed to see Hellhammer from Mayhem praising Faust (summer of Emperor?) for maybe having killed a gay guy? So... Yeah.

I'm sort of afraid to find out that the guy behind Panopticon is actually a neo nazi or something, but as it stands right now I think this is my favorite Black Metal song I have listened to so far.

But I do think it clicked for me. I went back and listened to some of the early Mayhem and even Bathory and it sounded a lot less inaccessible.

I think the melodic/symphonic stuff recommended is going to be up next. I could use a change of pace.
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Old 09-17-2018, 05:11 PM
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Jeebus hell, no.
I think I mentioned that I've been keeping my car satellite radio tuned to liquid metal. They play a decent amount of Korn and System of a Down who I still strongly dislike from my teenage years, but they also play a lot of Slipknot and... They aren't so bad. Maybe it's just that Slipknot didn't get tons of radio play like the other two did when I was younger, but I decidedly don't hate what I have heard.
  #222  
Old 09-17-2018, 06:02 PM
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Slipknot's good, yeah, at least the couple albums of them I have. Korn I never really could get into, but I really like System of a Down (even though the first time I heard them, live as part of a big US metal show I hated them with a passion). Kittie's a guilty pleasure - I know they're shit, but their first album is tied to some good memories for me and... well... I don't know, it's endearing shit ? Sincere shit, possibly. Then there's Godsmack which I genuinely like, although I'm not sure they're really nü strictly speaking ? More like heavy grunge I figure.


And I just realized that Godsmack's eponymous album is 20 years old now and I need to have a sit.
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Old 09-17-2018, 10:43 PM
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I have a significant bias against System of a Down that is probably unfair, but is likely unshakeable. I have heard a lot of that one album that was huge (because it was flipping inescapable at the time) and its all mostly associated with bad things for me. Not their fault, but no thank you.

Slipknot I did not know much about, but I knew of them. They were insanely popular at the end of high school and early college for me, but mostly popular with kids who were a few years younger than me and therefore obnoxious. They didn't get any radio play though so all I knew about them was that moody teenagers liked them and this performance on Conan O'Brian which I remember watching vividly mostly because they seem to have two members of the band whose only job is to be short and headbang. So I mentally chalked them up BS shock rockers like Insane Clown Posse or maybe Kid Rock or, if I was feeling generous, Marilyn Manson. Just wrote them off.

I am genuinely surprised to find that there is more to them than headbanging fat guy backup dancers and silly Halloween costumes.

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  #224  
Old 09-18-2018, 07:44 PM
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Then you've got the more epic stuff. Rhapsody of Fire and Blind Guardian are two bands that probably would have creamed their leather pants if they'd been offered the chance to score the battle scenes of the LOTR movies. Very technical stuff, Luca Turilli's solos will deffo make you go "bwuh ? How many fingers does this asshole even have ?". Legendary Tales through Rain of a Thousand Flames was peak Rhapsody : they knew they were getting more and more ridiculous, and pushed it beyond 11. Around that time they started describing themselves as "Bombastic Epic Hollywood Metal". Yeah. Blind Guardian is more on the power metal side of things, Nightfall in Middle Earthis fucking awesome, as is Somewhere Far Beyond.
So I decided to start off with Blind Guardian for my Symphonic/Power Metal week this week. 1) I had heard of them in my other reading about Metal, and 2) a lord of the Rings concept album seemed like a good time and if I didn't like the music I might dig the story.

It wasn't what I expected! Well, it was, but it also wasn't. After so much Black and Death Metal this seemed very... Rock. It was pretty fun though. It reminded me a bit of Helloween's Keeper of the Seven Keys.

I'm down. Nice change of pace to be sure. I'll keep listening though your recommendations in this post and the next couple Kobal. Thanks!
  #225  
Old 09-20-2018, 10:53 AM
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Spent the morning commute catching up on this thread. interesting thoughts, and I like the (sort of) chronological way you're working through them. Good work to the various posters helping out with suggestions and explaining the history of different scenes and sub genres.

Looks like we're approaching modern day, so I offer one suggestion (mainly because I don't think they've been mentioned yet): Deafheaven.

Modern black metal band with a lot of post rock and shoe gaze influence. Other bands have done similar things, but never as well in my opinion. Who would've thought that black metal could be so colourful.

A lot of black metal purists (and regular metal purists) hate them, but I think their album Sunbather is one of the most important metal albums of the decade.

Going back through the thread I realized I missed this suggestion so I listened to Sunbather this morning. I like this. Why do the metal purists hate them? Sounds perfectly metal to me. It has some rock influence I guess but feels like what I have come to expect from Black Metal... Maybe a touch more accessible?

Someone else want to weigh in on what I'm missing?
  #226  
Old 09-20-2018, 11:47 AM
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Ooh. I found another band I like that hasn't been mentioned. I started poking around in Black Metal stuff based on what I was digging about the Norwegian scene and came across the "band" (it's one guy) called Panopticon. The album Road to the North is what Allmusic.com suggested so it's what I listened to. This is awesome! It's kinda like the grander slow dark stuff that is going on in some of the doom and black metal bands I have dug, layered on top of just insane aggressive drums and guitars, and then there is kind of a quasi death metal vocal, but buried in the mix like a black metal vocal, and sometimes there is bluegrass music and mandolins. It's nuts. Really really good. It's listed as "American Black Metal" but feels sorta like it's coming from a similar place as a lot of prog death metal. But what do I know.

You guys know them?
If you haven't found out yet, Panopticon released a new album this year called The Scars of Man on the Once Nameless Wilderness I and II, which is a double album with one disc his usual atmospheric black metal and the second disc is mostly acoustic "American Folk" (the kind you'd find in the Appalachian region). I had only checked out Kentucky before, which I didn't quite "get" at the time, but this one clicked with me.

As you had expressed concern about Austin Lunn's political leanings, you can rest assured that he is simply an anarchist and totally not a Nazi.
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Old 09-22-2018, 11:48 AM
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As you had expressed concern about Austin Lunn's political leanings, you can rest assured that he is simply an anarchist and totally not a Nazi.
This makes me happy. I have been reading stuff that he has written about music over the past few days (he seems to contribute to No Clean Singing which, Bo is right, is a pretty cool website) and he seems like a good guy and genuine music lover. I was going to be really upset if he turned out to be a Nazi. Also, why the heck is Nazi black metal a thing? That makes no sense. Nazi's are all about the establishment and black metal seems to be fundamentally anti establishment.

Whatever. Now that black metal has clicked I'm really enjoying it. Plumpudding I took your suggestion and went back to Mayhem's Deathcrush EP yesterday and it was like hearing it for the first time. It's funny how having the proper mental context can change things. I could hear past the drums for the first time and actually appreciate that there were songs there. Also, Emperor is a great band, I know people probably know this already, but I think they are my favorite of the original Norwegian guys. At least In the Nightside Eclipse is my favorite album of those albums.

Edit: I also listened to the whole of Mayhem's Grand Declaration of War, which sounds so tame compared to this other stuff. I liked the music a lot, but the anti-Christian stuff felt a bit over the top. I get it, but I don't have strong feelings about Christianity one way or the other so it didn't really click and unlike Slayer (again they seem to be my baseline) it felt very serious and...meh. I don't hate it but I probably won't come back to it because it's just slightly too distracting.


Sadly, I'm not enjoying my stab at symphonic European power metal quite as much. The Blind Guardian album was still great, but the other stuff was a little too much for me. It's a fine line I guess. Still, not giving up. Mostly I got stuck on Rhapsody so, I will keep moving forward. I still have the following albums to check out in the symphonic/power metal vein.

Children of Bodum - Hatebreeder
Sonota Arctica - Reckoning Night (spotify didn't have the recommended album, this is what allmusic suggested)
Therion - The Secret of Runes
Grave Digger - Rheingold

None of the recommended Nightwish was on Spotify, so I may have to go to Youtube to try it out. I'm still hesitant.

I also have albums from Hammerfall, Gamma Ray, Iced Earth, Stradivarius, Sabaton, and Angra on my playlist based on stuff I was watching on the Banger TV youtube channel.

Then it's on to the folk metal and the Finnish stuff suggested.

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Old 09-22-2018, 11:54 AM
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Also, I would like to take a minute to appreciate how awesome it is to live in the future where I can actually listen to dozens upon dozens of albums in a few weeks time and not have to spend several thousand dollars to do it.
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Old 09-22-2018, 12:42 PM
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Oh, last thing. The Deafheaven album took me down a rabbit hole that lead me to Myrkur - Mareidt which is also, kind of controversial? People don't seem to like the lady behind this band. But I kinda dig it.

What do you guys think? Do you know about it?
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Old 09-22-2018, 01:06 PM
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I didn't like that Deafheaven album when it came out and I've heard nothing from them since that changes my mind.

My experience with Myrkur has been similar.

Frankly, I wish the metal press would stop pushing them on us. Let them go claim that they're some other genre that they're not and exploit that for a while, I say.

ETA: if you're liking Emperor, be sure and give Ihsahn's solo stuff a listen. I thought After was one of the two or three best albums of 2010 and IMO it remains the high point in his catalog.

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  #231  
Old 09-22-2018, 03:03 PM
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Frankly, I wish the metal press would stop pushing them on us. Let them go claim that they're some other genre that they're not and exploit that for a while, I say.
.
That makes sense. I felt the same way about bands like Green Day and Blink 182. Still do sort of. Say what you like about them but they aren't punk, and saying they are doesn't make it so.
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Old 09-23-2018, 10:02 AM
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My suggestion is to now not go by genere so much because some bands just don't fit in one category. Case in point is Sepeltura. Hell of the top of my head they could go under Death, Thrash, Nu, Groove, and that's just when I listened to them and I stopped at "Roots" who knows what they are now. Same thing with Fear Factory. Early albums are Thrash and progress into Techno with albums like Remanufacture. Ultimately generes are just a sloppy way of categorizing things that should be organically descovered....Unless it's Black Metal! I f×cking hate black metal! Oh look I record my band impotently flailing away at our instruments on a sh×tty two track before I committed some crimes in one of the most prosperous and non-violent societies in the world because we're so dark and broody.
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Old 09-23-2018, 01:11 PM
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Unless it's Black Metal! I f×cking hate black metal! Oh look I record my band impotently flailing away at our instruments on a sh×tty two track before I committed some crimes in one of the most prosperous and non-violent societies in the world because we're so dark and broody.
This made me laugh a lot.

Ultimately I think you are right about abandoning genre at this point. I have mostly worked my way through the 90s and am probably ready to hit the 21st century in a serious way.

I'll post what I have left on my listening list and you guys can maybe offer some guidance.

Two genre relates questions before I go back to chronology.

1) what exactly is Metalcore and why do people seem to hate it?

2) what is the new wave of American Metal and is it or is it not also metal core?
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Old 09-23-2018, 06:19 PM
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This made me laugh a lot.

Ultimately I think you are right about abandoning genre at this point. I have mostly worked my way through the 90s and am probably ready to hit the 21st century in a serious way.
I disagree: don't abandon genre; the distinctions are important IMO.
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'll post what I have left on my listening list and you guys can maybe offer some guidance.
I see that you've figured out that there's nothing headbangers love more than to share their favorite music with anyone who will stop and listen.
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Two genre relates questions before I go back to chronology.

1) what exactly is Metalcore and why do people seem to hate it?
IMO metalcore was born from two albums (with some help from Slayer): Stormtroopers Of Death's Speak English Or Die and Cro-Mags's Age Of Quarrel. Both showed the power of fusing hardcore punk with heavy metal, specifically New York hardcore punk and heavy metal. Typically somewhat slower paced than thrash (and not nearly as technically demanding, of course), breakdowns feature heavily (as they provide excellent mashing cadence, natch). The lyrical content is often self-affirming and urban in nature, although there are a substantial number of bands that focus on political and/or social causes exclusively. Here's some metalcore (some of which I've linked in this thread before):

Madball - Face to Face - the hardcore is strong with Madball, eh

Hatebreed - Destroy Everything - pure metalcore
Hatebreed - Live For This

Throwdown - Holy Roller - another pure metalcore band
Throwdown - Burn

Ringworm - Snake Church - either the most hardcore metal band or the most metal hardcore band around today
Ringworm - Hammer of the Witch

Metalcore itself is fun, powerful music, stripped of much that ornaments other metal genres but allowing some skillful playing to seep into punk rock.

The reason that the term is often met with derision boils down to the fact that the simple nature of the music meant it was simple to exploit: the tropes were easily translated to other formats and genres. Once the lame dipshits who came up 2nd generation and embraced the great music of bands like Husker Dü and Minor Threat only softer and with whining over it to create emocore and screamo as distinct genres, it was already too late to save metalcore. Then "art rock" bands started co-opting the sounds, then EDM acts... it quickly got squicky, eh.

Bands then started getting the "-core" labels slapped on them willy-nilly: as long as you were metal-ish, you must be some kind of "core", right? So a lot of the pushback to the term also comes from the fact that marketing jerks saw it as a quick and easy way to categorize everything as "metal" and improperly and over-used it.

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2) what is the new wave of American Metal and is it or is it not also metal core?
The NWOAHM is not metalcore and metalcore bands are not a part of it, IMO (with the possible exception of Killswitch Engage).

IMO the NWOAHM began in September 2000 with the release of Lamb Of God's New American Gospel. This was a new melding of riff power, propulsive drumming and screamed vocals coupled with excellent songwriting. Soon after, Mastodon would emerge from Atlanta with the next musical step (even more accessible songwriting and monumental proficiency with their instruments) and with Machine Head running well out in front, a horde of American metal bands would soon pour forth, emulating and evolving the formula: raw vocals, loud, angry guitar riffs and stuttering helicopter rhythms, technical precision on display at all times without having to be deliberately flashy about it... it was bound to win over fans of heavy music, eh.

But the NWOAHM ended in about 2005, IMO, just due to the new things brought to the table being eaten and digested by then and simply a part of metal: we all liked most it well enough that that stuff is just expected now.

Which brings me back to my last, brief post. In the end I try and cut acts like Myrkur and Deafheaven a lot of slack, despite my own personal dislike for their product. There's plenty of different tastes to satisfy, after all. And I should be flattered by the fact that they've co-opted metal into so many other genres, because it shows what the world hasn't really noticed yet: heavy metal won. Rock is dead but metal lives on; it can't be killed. Not only that, it infects and infests everything, glomming on and taking over, subverting and subduing and remaking all in it's path like a musical Blob or Thing.
  #235  
Old 09-23-2018, 07:28 PM
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Metalcore an N.W.O.A.H.M. are where I kind of checked out of the "Metal" scene. Don't get me wrong I thought at one point Lamb of God could have overtaken Metallica as the KINGS of metal but their last few albums were very underwhelming to me. I was really taken aback with the whole clean chorus plauge that infected metal at the time. As I reassess I can help but admit I love me some Killswitch Engage though again CLEAN CHORUS WTF!
  #236  
Old 09-24-2018, 03:20 AM
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I also have albums from Hammerfall, Gamma Ray, Iced Earth, Stradivarius, Sabaton, and Angra on my playlist based on stuff I was watching on the Banger TV youtube channel.

Then it's on to the folk metal and the Finnish stuff suggested.

Of those :

Gamma Ray is very solid, as is Helloween (same guys, different band)
Angra is really good ! It's been ages since I've listened to them, too. Think I'm going to dust out Angels Cry today.
Statovariusis... I mean they're good, but they've released over a dozen albums and it's all the same one, or so it seems https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...es/redface.gif.
SabatonI know are old school, but I never got into them
Iced Earth rocks solidly. Nothing revolutionary, just good power metal. If you like both it and Blind Guardian, check out Demons & Wizards ; a side project of both bands.

Hammerfall is a bit of a guilty pleasure. They're super derivative, haven't put one original note or thought to paper, the music is passable, the lyrics have zero point (as a friend and I used to joke, it's your basic "steel eagles of metal swords on fire" stuff - like Manowar only less inspired) and they're ridiculous on stage. Also they've committed this video, which is most certainly a thing. Don't play the cliché drinking game with it, you'll die. And yet, somehow, still enjoyable sometimes. It's a mystery to me.
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  #237  
Old 09-24-2018, 08:13 AM
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I was really taken aback with the whole clean chorus plauge that infected metal at the time. As I reassess I can help but admit I love me some Killswitch Engage though again CLEAN CHORUS WTF!
With some bands it's annoying, for instance with A Day To Remember it seems like they use clean when they should be using unclean and vice versa. But some bands can pull it of like Like Moths to Flames.
  #238  
Old 09-24-2018, 09:48 AM
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Hammerfall is a bit of a guilty pleasure. They're super derivative, haven't put one original note or thought to paper, the music is passable, the lyrics have zero point (as a friend and I used to joke, it's your basic "steel eagles of metal swords on fire" stuff - like Manowar only less inspired) and they're ridiculous on stage. Also they've committed this video, which is most certainly a thing. Don't play the cliché drinking game with it, you'll die. And yet, somehow, still enjoyable sometimes. It's a mystery to me.
Well that was something else. I'm glad I watched it. It's not my thing, but that was pretty fun.
  #239  
Old 09-25-2018, 10:32 AM
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In The Nightside Eclipse is a great album. I saw Emperor once at a no-alcohol youth festival... I didn't notice I'd stepped in dog poop so I had the whole front to myself...

Immortal (hint: zipper) is another band you'll probably like. Maybe you'll like Gorgoroth, but they're in the "so satanic it hurts the brain" territory.

There's two more albums from Satyricon you might like, Shadowthrone and Nemesis Divina. I also like a lot of their later output, but after those two albums they change course towards a more accessible sound.

I think you should probably have a look at the most beloved and the most hated band of norwegian black metal: Dimmu Borgir... Begin with the original release of Stormblåst, then listen to the new release. I think you'll notice a pretty stark difference. Enthrone Darkness Triumphant sets a new course from the earlier albums and Spiritual Black Dimensions continues that, until Puritanical Euphoric Misanthropia, where they change from a symphonic black metal band into a symphonic black metal parody.

Other bands in the same sphere: Old Mans Child and The Kovenant (These guys are weird, they've done symphonic industrial black metal, black metal with accordion and opera vocals, symphonic techno-black metal, you name it. They also take the cake for silliest band pictures.).
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Old 09-25-2018, 10:45 AM
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The Kovenant (These guys are weird, they've done symphonic industrial black metal, black metal with accordion and opera vocals, symphonic techno-black metal, you name it. They also take the cake for silliest band pictures.).
I dunno... sometimes I think post-Immortal Abbath is on a mission to destroy and remake the imagery of black metal bands. Gotta love this guy!

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  #241  
Old 09-25-2018, 11:02 AM
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But but I already covered him!

But seriously, pigtails?
  #242  
Old 09-25-2018, 11:08 AM
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I always found this picture a bit contradictory.
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Old 09-25-2018, 11:52 AM
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Just listened to the track of his you linked to a few posts back. He's fun. Kind of putting the emphasis back on the metal part of black metal.

Immortal going on to my playlist for today.

Already listened to Lamb of God - New American Gospel. Love their rhythm section, not crazy about their singer. I might get past it though because their music is excellent. The groove in Confessional knocked me out.
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Old 09-25-2018, 01:13 PM
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Just listened to the track of his you linked to a few posts back. He's fun. Kind of putting the emphasis back on the metal part of black metal.
Aye. He's also a very good songwriter. The 2nd generation of back metal that's happening now is cool. They've refined the tropes of the genre and are allowing room for other influences atop the template; I like that. In another 8-12 years, we should start to hear some really exciting variations and permutations take hold.
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Immortal going on to my playlist for today.
You won't be sorry. It's rough and all, but you seem to be okay with that aspect of back metal.
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Already listened to Lamb of God - New American Gospel. Love their rhythm section, not crazy about their singer. I might get past it though because their music is excellent. The groove in Confessional knocked me out.
The rhythm section on this album is also my favorite part. There are some fantastic riffs and great guitar playing, but it's the crazy propulsive rhythms that make me spaz like bobcats on booze. And it turns out there's a story behind that...

In the liner notes, the band explains that they recorded this very quickly, for very little money ($5000 was the budget). The guys were young, apparently still young enough for "booze is a food group, right?" to sound plausible. And they recorded the drums first, of course. When Chris Adler, the drummer, was newly drunk. Without a click track.



So that's why the album has this peculiar lurching, raging feel to it: the drummer was soused and had no metronome. Everyone else was drunk too, so they just stumble-rushed through everything, pounding out each song with real abandon and fury, but now all infected with that slightly off-kilter sensation that started with the drums.

I truly believe the lack of a click track is the reason why this album is IMO so good, why it sets above and apart from everything else at the time. The lack of a click track was the little something that nudged them from good to greatness; the band needed that element of chaos within the order they created. It's hard to trap lightning in a bottle twice tho, eh. The fact that they are talented songwriters and performers has kept them going and kept them atop the game, but all they've been able to do is add polish to their product; they've not yet been able to grime it up properly since this album, IMO.
  #245  
Old 09-28-2018, 08:04 PM
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I've been kind of bouncing off several bands the last few days trying to find something that worked for me. I quite like Immortal - Sons of Northern Darkness (maybe my favorite Norwegian Black Metal album so far? It's up there at least), but wanted to break out of the Black Metal stuff.Decided I haven't gone back to Sepeltura yet so I gave Arise and Chaos A.D. a listen. I am going to come back to these. I liked the flavor of them though. Sort of half thrash half death metal. Neither grabbed me hard like I hoped, but I found both to be enjoyable.

Tried Arch Enemy, based on Bo's recommendation (I was going back through the thread looking for things I missed.)not bad. I listened to Burning Bridges, Wages of Sin and the latest one Will to Power. Like the new stuff decidedly less than the older stuff, and like their second singer (from Wages of Sin) better than the other two by a large margin (though I think I like the music on the Burning Bridges album with their first singer better.) But I liked Burning Bridges and Wages of sin a good bit. This felt like it was moving in the right direction for what I'm looking for.

Given that I was liking that pretty well and that's kind of categorized as Melodic Death Metal I gave At the Gates another shot. I do not get why this band is so popular. I keep seeing things like "inspired a whole generation of bands" in reference to the album Slaughter of the Souls but...it's boring. Clearly there is something about death metal that real metal heads dig that is passing me by still. I found it extremely repetitive and, sure, kind of melodic I guess, but not in a particularly interesting way. I don't know what I'm missing. Maybe you had to be there?

So I did some more reading on Arch Enemy and saw that it was a supergroup of sorts with the guitar player from Carcass in it. I have heard a lot about Carcass and Heartwork keeps showing up on lists of essential death metal. Bo had warned me off it, but that was like a month ago at this point and, well, I like black metal now and didn't then so what the heck.

Carcass might be my favorite Death Metal band, non Bolt Thrower category (I'm loyal.) Heartwork had everything that Slaughter of Souls didn't. It had variety and dynamics and melody. I know it's a kind of controversial album, but it still sounds hard as heck to me so I don't exactly know why. I liked it so much that I went back an album and listened to Necroticism and THAT was great too! It's never just a wall of sound. I think that's what makes it work. Its loud and aggressive, but they make space in the music to focus attention one place or another. It's not just waves of noise slapping you in the face. There is order in the chaos. I haven't gone back further yet because they are apparently a little more gindcore-y and I haven't decided to go down that road yet. But that's my next step I think. Take a look at some genuine grindcore.

So that's where I am right now. 2 death metal bands I genuinely really really like. I may even go so far as to call myself a fan of Bolt Thrower at least, probably Carcass too. I should probably listen to some more Death too. I feel like I would like them even more at this point, I was already liking them a little. I was thinking of listening to some more Thrash also. We will see where the weekend takes me.

In case anyone has suggestions or wants to point me in a direction or add something here is what I have on my "to listen to" playlist at the moment. It's long sort of broken into genre as I can figure it:

Power/Symphonic Metal:
Manowar - Battle Hyms & Kings of Metal
Gamma Ray - Land of the Free
Dragon Force - Inhuman Rampage
Iced Earth - Something Wicked This Way Comes
Angra - Holy Land
Children of Bodum - Hate Breeder

Thrash:
Voivod - Nothing Face
Kreator - Pleasure to kill
Sepeltura - Beneath the remains
Testement - Practice what you Preach
Municipal Waste - The Art of Partying
Baroness - Red Album

Unsure how they got on my list:
Paradise Lost - Lost Paradise
Dead Cross - Dead Cross EP
Sarcafigo - Inri
Cynic - Focus
Obscura - Cosmogenesis
Orphaned Land - Mabool
Primordal - The Gathering Wilderness
Sodom - Persecution Machine

Metalcore
Hatebreed - Satisfaction is the Death of Desire

Grindcore
Napalm Death - Fear Emptiness Despair & From Enslavement to Obligteration
Terrorizer - World Downfall
Pig Destroyer - Terrifyer

Death Metal -
Morbid Angel - Altars of Madness
Hate Eternal - I Monarch
Autopsy - Mental Funeral
Cannibal Corpse - The Bleeding &Torture
Gorguts - From Wisdom to Hate
Decapitated - Winds of Creation
Obituary - Slowly We Rot

Black Metal
Khold - Hundre Ar Gammal
Cradel of Filth - Dusk and her Embrace
Gorgoroth - Pentagram
Behemoth - The Satanist
Summoning - Stronghold
Tiamat - Astral Sleep (is this actually Black Metal?)
Immortal - Pure Holocaust
Dimmu Borger - Stormblast & Enthone Darkness Triumphant

Prog
Neurosis - Through Silver in Blood
Opeth - Deliverance
Atheist - Elements
Dream Theater - Images and Words
Meshugga - Destroy Erase Improve
Devin Townsend - Ocean Machine
Nocturnus - The Key
Isis - Oceanic



Folk Metal
Skyclad - A Burnt offering for the Bone Idol
Melechesh - Djinn

New Wave of American Metal
Machine Head - The More Things Change
Lamb of God - Ashes of the Wake

Industrial
Godflesh - Streetcleaner
Straping young lad - City
Ramstein - Sehnscht
Fear Factory - Fear is the Mind Killer
KMFDM - Nihil
White Zombie - Astrocreep

I took out stuff that I already listened to but it's very possible I missed a suggestion. So don't be afraid to re recommend something that you aren't certain I saw. The thread has a lot of suggestions in it at this point.

Also, if anyone feels that a category should be fleshed out or if I am missing an important sub genre let me know. Lastly, if anyone knows about those bands that are on my "I don't know how these ended up on my list" feel free to share. Sometimes I just dump bands on the list while reading something and then forget why.
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Old 09-28-2018, 08:58 PM
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Not quite sure where The Sword sit on the metal/hard rock continuum - I've heard them referred to, tongue-in-cheek, as Heritage Metal - but Warp Riders and Age of Winters are just good l oud fun albums. Ditto Orange Goblin, who are equally steeped in the 70s.
  #247  
Old 09-28-2018, 10:12 PM
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{snip}
In my head, Iron Maiden and Judas Priest are indelibly linked as pretty much the top of NWOBHM bands, and I like that I hear so much similarity and so much difference in their music. They're shufflers for sure, but their songs that I like get turned up when they start moving air. {snip}
I am shocked.
I really thought I was the only one that saw that "same but different" thing, that exists there. For me it is truly ineffable, and everyone I've ever brought it up to said they didn't see it.

Now I know it's not just me.
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Old 09-28-2018, 10:49 PM
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Tried Arch Enemy, based on Bo's recommendation (I was going back through the thread looking for things I missed.)not bad. I listened to Burning Bridges, Wages of Sin and the latest one Will to Power. Like the new stuff decidedly less than the older stuff, and like their second singer (from Wages of Sin) better than the other two by a large margin (though I think I like the music on the Burning Bridges album with their first singer better.) But I liked Burning Bridges and Wages of sin a good bit. This felt like it was moving in the right direction for what I'm looking for.
I'm not much of a fan. IMO they never quite get the songwriting down pat to produce a truly awesome, memorable tune. They do clearly have a style/formula tho that others love: they've had quite a long career now.
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Given that I was liking that pretty well and that's kind of categorized as Melodic Death Metal I gave At the Gates another shot. I do not get why this band is so popular. I keep seeing things like "inspired a whole generation of bands" in reference to the album Slaughter of the Souls but...it's boring. Clearly there is something about death metal that real metal heads dig that is passing me by still. I found it extremely repetitive and, sure, kind of melodic I guess, but not in a particularly interesting way. I don't know what I'm missing. Maybe you had to be there?
No idea; not a fan myself. Too much fucking melody.
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So I did some more reading on Arch Enemy and saw that it was a supergroup of sorts with the guitar player from Carcass in it.
Well, he played with Carcass for a bit, aye.
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I have heard a lot about Carcass and Heartwork keeps showing up on lists of essential death metal. Bo had warned me off it, but that was like a month ago at this point and, well, I like black metal now and didn't then so what the heck.

Carcass might be my favorite Death Metal band, non Bolt Thrower category (I'm loyal.) Heartwork had everything that Slaughter of Souls didn't. It had variety and dynamics and melody. I know it's a kind of controversial album, but it still sounds hard as heck to me so I don't exactly know why. I liked it so much that I went back an album and listened to Necroticism and THAT was great too! It's never just a wall of sound. I think that's what makes it work. Its loud and aggressive, but they make space in the music to focus attention one place or another. It's not just waves of noise slapping you in the face. There is order in the chaos. I haven't gone back further yet because they are apparently a little more gindcore-y and I haven't decided to go down that road yet. But that's my next step I think. Take a look at some genuine grindcore.
Indeed, their first album is nearly devoid of melody. Symphonies is somehwat more polished and features fairly standard and coherent song structures as well as ripping solos (fav of mine from back in the day). To be honest tho, I liked their post-17y-year-hiatus album, 2013's Surgical Steel best of them all. It's very polished and INSANELY fast. Finally the pace doesn't have to slow down for the melodic bits, which come so fast they sound like brief riffs at times instead of melodic passages. It's only real detriment is that it has an intro song, something I'm solidly against lately.
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So that's where I am right now. 2 death metal bands I genuinely really really like. I may even go so far as to call myself a fan of Bolt Thrower at least, probably Carcass too. I should probably listen to some more Death too. I feel like I would like them even more at this point, I was already liking them a little. I was thinking of listening to some more Thrash also. We will see where the weekend takes me.

In case anyone has suggestions or wants to point me in a direction or add something here is what I have on my "to listen to" playlist at the moment. It's long sort of broken into genre as I can figure it:
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Thrash:
Voivod - Nothing Face
Kreator - Pleasure to kill
Sepeltura - Beneath the remains
Testement - Practice what you Preach
Municipal Waste - The Art of Partying
Baroness - Red Album
Good picks overall. Highly recommend Kreator's 2nd wave tho, starting with Violent Revolution. As I've said, IMO Mille (and the band) got better with age.

I think you'll like that Municipal Waste quite a bit. The Baroness album is my favorite of theirs, too; the album artwork ushered in a whole new style (and career for guitarist John Baizley).
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Originally Posted by NAF1138 View Post
Metalcore
Hatebreed - Satisfaction is the Death of Desire
This is still very hardcore-sounding. It's good. It's brutal and raw and direct. But IMO the band took a couple of albums to really hit their stride. By the time of 2003's The Rise of Brutality they were a powerhouse, a real-life mosh pit generating machine of ferocious intensity. If you like what you hear I'd encourage you to keep going through their discography.

You should also check out Throwdown (a couple of links previous), Every Time I Die (2009's New Junk Aesthetic was the best album I heard that year) and Nora - I Should Have Sent Flowers.

There's a lot of sub-genres and branches that metalcore took, but those are some core metalcore bands.


Quote:
Originally Posted by NAF1138 View Post
Grindcore
Napalm Death - Fear Emptiness Despair & From Enslavement to Obligteration
Terrorizer - World Downfall
Pig Destroyer - Terrifyer
Good picks to start. I'll start thinking about how to explain grindcore eh.
  #249  
Old 09-28-2018, 11:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Penfeather View Post
Not quite sure where The Sword sit on the metal/hard rock continuum - I've heard them referred to, tongue-in-cheek, as Heritage Metal - but Warp Riders and Age of Winters are just good l oud fun albums. Ditto Orange Goblin, who are equally steeped in the 70s.
Good recs, Penfeather.

The Sword's first album, Age of Winters is awesome, a heavy but fun romp thru snow in pursuit of vastly overmatched enemies. Gods is a tinge less fun but still very good. Warp Riders is a perfect album if you just remove Night City, which is as wretched a tune as ever graced a mid-'70s hard rock album.

Orange Goblin are a favorite of mine and don't get near the accolades they often deserve. They play a boozy kind of stoned biker doom:

Orange Goblin - The Ale House Braves
Orange Goblin - Beginner's Guide To Suicide
Orange Goblin - Acid Trial

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 09-28-2018 at 11:00 PM.
  #250  
Old 09-28-2018, 11:04 PM
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Originally Posted by BobBitchin' View Post
I am shocked.
I really thought I was the only one that saw that "same but different" thing, that exists there. For me it is truly ineffable, and everyone I've ever brought it up to said they didn't see it.

Now I know it's not just me.
Nope: not just you. I hear similarities in their twin guitars, their song structures, their vocals (altho not generally their lyrics), etc. It's as tho both bands started from the same place but then subtly changed away from that point of singularity just a bit before straightening their trajectories out again.
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