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  #151  
Old 01-16-2020, 04:55 PM
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The Spoiler Police are now looking to ban pre-spoilers. That's right, to prevent speculation potentially being right and thus ruining a show for the spoiler-averse, guesses will now be treated the same as outright giving away the plot for recently-aired episodes.

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I wish you had marked your post as a spoiler alert!
  #152  
Old 01-16-2020, 05:04 PM
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I know it's picky, but if, say, someone had proffered a guess ahead of time that Darth Vader was Luke's father, it would have spoiled the surprise nonetheless. I guess I'll just unsubscribe from this thread so I don't have surprises accidentally revealed. Carry on.
  #153  
Old 01-16-2020, 05:12 PM
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OK, but it's very common in threads about TV shows and movies for us to speculate what's going to happen.
  #154  
Old 01-17-2020, 07:04 AM
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Episode 11: Mondays, am I right?

Well that's it, what a good series finale. The afterlife is sorted out and our heroes are on their way to their thoroughly deserved Good Place reward...

2 more episodes?

OK that was a decent enough "move the plot along" episode, but didn't really have many good individual moments, and the movement in plot wasn't that interesting. Certainly the Good Place needs improving and there's one girl from Arizona who can get it done within 2 episodes.
  #155  
Old 01-17-2020, 10:03 AM
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“Holy mother forking shirt balls, they’re not taking us to the Good Place - because they can’t. THIS is the Good Place.”
  #156  
Old 01-17-2020, 11:13 AM
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OK, but it's very common in threads about TV shows and movies for us to speculate what's going to happen.
Given that this ep was a not much to comment on one (which makes me fear this show will peter out more than end on a note as strong as it has been the rest of its run), I'll comment on this.

I'm torn.

On the one hand, yeah speculation about what happens next is part of the fun about sharing shows in real time, and something that gets lost when shows are dumped for binging.

The other side is the season one Westworld internet collective intelligence nothing confirmed but still sort of spoiler by sharing the solved puzzle widely with those who were still working the puzzle out themselves. Some speculations should be spoiler boxed.

I don't think what has been here is of the Westworld sort.
  #157  
Old 01-17-2020, 11:20 AM
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Honestly, if you're worried about this type of speculation, these threads are not for you.
  #158  
Old 01-19-2020, 03:55 PM
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Well, that certainly felt like series finale even if the ending was kinda abrupt.

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  #159  
Old 01-20-2020, 06:58 AM
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Apart from the joy that was "chainsaw bears", the big surprise in this episode was Jason outmanoeuvring Chidi. Jason's been getting more and more on point in recent episodes (his previous trolley problem analogy was another example, even if he then promptly over-Jasoned it) which is a sign of definite growth and maturity, even if he remains an idiot.
  #160  
Old 01-22-2020, 12:01 PM
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Apart from the joy that was "chainsaw bears", the big surprise in this episode was Jason outmanoeuvring Chidi. Jason's been getting more and more on point in recent episodes (his previous trolley problem analogy was another example, even if he then promptly over-Jasoned it) which is a sign of definite growth and maturity, even if he remains an idiot.
He's read some books.
  #161  
Old 01-23-2020, 07:04 PM
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I still find it weird that the best person (according to the old system) to have lived for the last 500 years was Mindy St Clair.
In fairness, that's only 3.34Tgh&92$f jeremy bearimies.
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  #162  
Old 01-24-2020, 01:20 AM
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Episode 12: Patty
Wow. I was driving home from work anticipating today’s episode (for some reason I was expecting two parts to run tonight) and thinking that eternity is a really long time, and about Wowbagger the infinitely prolonged. Shocked to see that be the theme of this episode.

Pretty mind blowing - I feel like my brain is now as smooth as an egg. Need a stardust milkshake to recover.
  #163  
Old 01-24-2020, 04:45 AM
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I checked the channel guide for next Thursday. The episode is slated to run from 8:30-10:00.
  #164  
Old 01-24-2020, 09:36 AM
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I wonder if that's why they stopped accepting people in the good place - they realized it was broken.
  #165  
Old 01-24-2020, 09:51 AM
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So the problem with the Good Place was that an eternity of having every wish fulfilled gets boring after some time, and their solution is to give people an exit, a door through which you pass, your existence ends and who knows what happens next. Isn't that describing what happens when one dies? And wouldn't Janet know what happens if you pass through that door?
  #166  
Old 01-24-2020, 10:31 AM
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I was amused by Tahani's conversation with the one guy who died of a small cut on his finger (due to the absence of vaccinations) and said, "It’s crazy that you guys just don’t like them now."
  #167  
Old 01-24-2020, 10:36 AM
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I wonder if that's why they stopped accepting people in the good place - they realized it was broken.
I don't think so, because the indications seem to have been that the Good Place and Bad Place don't really know much about each other and (until now) neither was directly involved in the sorting system.

But it might be why the Good Place folks were so slow to try to change anything.
  #168  
Old 01-24-2020, 10:41 AM
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So the problem with the Good Place was that an eternity of having every wish fulfilled gets boring after some time, and their solution is to give people an exit, a door through which you pass, your existence ends and who knows what happens next. Isn't that describing what happens when one dies? And wouldn't Janet know what happens if you pass through that door?
Yeah, I mean. I think you just landed on the analogy. Life has meaning because it ends. To give the afterlife meaning, it also has to end.

Janet doesn't know, because the whole point is that they're letting people pass OUT of known existence. And, just like WE don't really know what happens when people die, Janet (still a being OF this known existence) can't really know what happens when somebody passes out of it.
  #169  
Old 01-24-2020, 12:45 PM
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I'm thinking that ultimately a Good Place requires problems that need to be fixed. Michael needs his boulder to shoulder up the hill to be happy. The team needs their challenges to solve. This last one was too easy and the pleasure of doing it won't last long.

Even with the exit door it is like retiring with no plan of what to do ...
  #170  
Old 01-24-2020, 01:13 PM
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I'm thinking that ultimately a Good Place requires problems that need to be fixed. Michael needs his boulder to shoulder up the hill to be happy. The team needs their challenges to solve. This last one was too easy and the pleasure of doing it won't last long.

Even with the exit door it is like retiring with no plan of what to do ...
Fear not, there's still 30 (or 60, or 90 according to kaylasdad99) minutes left work that out. Perhaps Phoebe Buffay of Alexandria can help the team figure things out.
  #171  
Old 01-24-2020, 07:45 PM
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A great episode that looks ready to set up a true "stick the landing" finale. I think the idea of voluntary memory wipes was dismissed way too easily as it seems like the perfect solution. but I'm happy to accept it as a "nu-uh we can't do that" and not question it too deeply.
  #172  
Old 01-24-2020, 10:20 PM
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I have quietly questioned a lot about religion throughout my life, and one of those has always been that an infinity of pleasure sounds very boring. Most people seem excited by it, I have onle ever been cynical and doubtful about it. It's nice to have it addressed as a fundamental part of this story.
  #173  
Old 01-25-2020, 11:47 AM
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Because I saw The Jaunt thread yesterday and promptly re-read that short story (google delivers) it was on my mind while watching this episode. No matter how awesome, never-ending anything is hell.

It's longer than you think, Dad! It's longer than you think! [claws out own eyes]
  #174  
Old 01-25-2020, 12:57 PM
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The problem was great, but the solution felt a little pat to me. Aren't there other possibilities than permanent nonexistence? Such as:
-Remove omnipotence. Pleasures in the afterlife will require some effort.
-Remove consistency. Sporadic rewards are more rewarding than consistent ones, which is why gambling is so fun.
-Allow good place inhabitants to help with the purgatory levels, or to help folks in them. Being useful is super motivating.
-Reincarnation for them as want another bite at the apple.
-Suspended animation. Go to sleep for 10,000 years, wake up to check out how things are going.
-Godhood a la mormonism. Create your own universe.

Exploring options other than true death would've been interesting, IMO.
  #175  
Old 01-25-2020, 01:19 PM
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Exploring options other than true death would've been interesting, IMO.
A lot of those are starting to sound like the Culture novels.

But yeah, it's not like there's not already all sorts of real afterlife designs to play with. It's always been kind of curious that we've only seen the Brand X version of Dante's scenario.
  #176  
Old 01-25-2020, 10:16 PM
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A lot of those are starting to sound like the Culture novels.
Ayup. I was actually thinking that the showrunners should've read some Culture novels for ideas. They're not my favorite SF, but they've explored this territory pretty well.
  #177  
Old 01-26-2020, 08:44 PM
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SPECULATION ABOUT SHOW FINALE FOLLOWS:

(Just saying, in response to discussion earlier in the thread.)

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I'm thinking that ultimately a Good Place requires problems that need to be fixed. Michael needs his boulder to shoulder up the hill to be happy. The team needs their challenges to solve. ...
That's been a consistent theme in the show, and I expect we'll see it in one form or another in the finale.

Michael Schur, presumably, will want to provide an ending that will seem fitting and will satisfy. It's likely that he'll want to surprise viewers, too--if not at the full-on "twist" level, at least on the "didn't see that coming---but it works" level.

NON-SUPERNATURAL ENDINGS:

***"It was all a dream"---MS could show us Eleanor waking up in the hospital after the shopping-carts incident, but it's unlikely that he will, as it would mean (for one thing) that the others in the main-six were merely creations of E's imagination.

The same is probably true for the somewhat-more-respectable, brain-science version of It was All a Dream: the "dreams are the mind's way of healing itself" plot. Inception did it well, and I doubt that MS wants to try to duplicate that.


***ALIENS---We haven't seen much content on the creation of the system the characters are dealing with. Who or what made Gen? Who or what made the demons and the angels (or Good Place Committee, if you like)? Who or what made the Janets? The answer could be aliens---aliens who take an interest in humanity. Some of the aliens are benign and want to help humans evolve their ethical sense; others are sadistic and want to see humans tortured.

This is a plot idea explored in a fair amount of detail, over several novels and stories, by the late Philip José Farmer,
SPOILER:
In his "Riverworld" series.
Though it would certainly provide both surprise and a welcome explanation for what's been going on, I doubt that Schur would want to use it as the comparisons would be too easy to make.


***OTHER SCIENCE-FICTION EXPLANATIONS---Instead of aliens, artificial-intelligence beings could be the prime movers, or humans hooked up to simulation machines, or any number of other classical sf premises. My guess, though, is that MS will stick with:


A SUPERNATURAL ENDING

Schur has already presented and treated a number of familiar themes, and is unlikely to hang the finale on one that's already been explored on the show. These include:

---LIVING AGAIN AND AGAIN LEADS TO PERSONAL GROWTH: This theme is popular because it makes sense in terms of our own experience. Movies like Groundhog Day and Defending Your Life offer explicit depictions of the process, but of course it dates back many centuries, to Buddhism if not to earlier beliefs.

---A HEAVEN THAT GIVES YOU EVERYTHING YOU WANT, SOON BECOMES HELL: Dealt with in the show, and not a new idea there; a familiar example is Charles Beaumont's 1960 teleplay for The Twilight Zone, "A Nice Place to Visit." (The wikipedia article on the episode mentions a 1935 radio play that went over similar ground.)

Other fantasy themes that MS could employ in the finale:

---SEE WHAT (MIGHT) BECOME OF THE CHARACTERS: Both Star Trek: The Next Generation and Star Trek: Voyager used this device. Something causes a trip decades into the future that lets us see "what happened" to the characters, without committing to a declaration that this is what definitely happens to the characters--it's all just one possible future. It may have been satisfying for those particular shows, but Schur won't want to duplicate the device.

---THE CHARACTERS GET TO START ALL OVER AGAIN: This has been shown in the series. However, the variant "they live their lives again from childhood" hasn't been used. (A pop-culture example is Richard Matheson's
SPOILER:
What Dreams May Come).
Still, it seems unlikely that MS will go there.



So, if not any of those, then what? My guess: the main six characters---possibly with the addition of Shawn and a Bad Janet---will be promoted to becoming a collective God (essentially). They will go on working together and solving problems. The Point System may be abandoned and only hints of what will replace it will be discussed, maybe, leaving that bit of open-endedness that we tend to expect from the wrap-ups of beloved shows.

All that sounds banal---but there is a certain glory to the idea that fans of the show might enjoy. Eleanor, the screw-up, part of God! There's something to identify with in that concept.
  #178  
Old 01-26-2020, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Sherrerd View Post
SPECULATION ABOUT SHOW FINALE FOLLOWS:

(Just saying, in response to discussion earlier in the thread.)



That's been a consistent theme in the show, and I expect we'll see it in one form or another in the finale.

Michael Schur, presumably, will want to provide an ending that will seem fitting and will satisfy. It's likely that he'll want to surprise viewers, too--if not at the full-on "twist" level, at least on the "didn't see that coming---but it works" level.

NON-SUPERNATURAL ENDINGS:

***"It was all a dream"---MS could show us Eleanor waking up in the hospital after the shopping-carts incident, but it's unlikely that he will, as it would mean (for one thing) that the others in the main-six were merely creations of E's imagination.

The same is probably true for the somewhat-more-respectable, brain-science version of It was All a Dream: the "dreams are the mind's way of healing itself" plot. Inception did it well, and I doubt that MS wants to try to duplicate that.


***ALIENS---We haven't seen much content on the creation of the system the characters are dealing with. Who or what made Gen? Who or what made the demons and the angels (or Good Place Committee, if you like)? Who or what made the Janets? The answer could be aliens---aliens who take an interest in humanity. Some of the aliens are benign and want to help humans evolve their ethical sense; others are sadistic and want to see humans tortured.

This is a plot idea explored in a fair amount of detail, over several novels and stories, by the late Philip José Farmer,
SPOILER:
In his "Riverworld" series.
Though it would certainly provide both surprise and a welcome explanation for what's been going on, I doubt that Schur would want to use it as the comparisons would be too easy to make.


***OTHER SCIENCE-FICTION EXPLANATIONS---Instead of aliens, artificial-intelligence beings could be the prime movers, or humans hooked up to simulation machines, or any number of other classical sf premises. My guess, though, is that MS will stick with:


A SUPERNATURAL ENDING

Schur has already presented and treated a number of familiar themes, and is unlikely to hang the finale on one that's already been explored on the show. These include:

---LIVING AGAIN AND AGAIN LEADS TO PERSONAL GROWTH: This theme is popular because it makes sense in terms of our own experience. Movies like Groundhog Day and Defending Your Life offer explicit depictions of the process, but of course it dates back many centuries, to Buddhism if not to earlier beliefs.

---A HEAVEN THAT GIVES YOU EVERYTHING YOU WANT, SOON BECOMES HELL: Dealt with in the show, and not a new idea there; a familiar example is Charles Beaumont's 1960 teleplay for The Twilight Zone, "A Nice Place to Visit." (The wikipedia article on the episode mentions a 1935 radio play that went over similar ground.)

Other fantasy themes that MS could employ in the finale:

---SEE WHAT (MIGHT) BECOME OF THE CHARACTERS: Both Star Trek: The Next Generation and Star Trek: Voyager used this device. Something causes a trip decades into the future that lets us see "what happened" to the characters, without committing to a declaration that this is what definitely happens to the characters--it's all just one possible future. It may have been satisfying for those particular shows, but Schur won't want to duplicate the device.

---THE CHARACTERS GET TO START ALL OVER AGAIN: This has been shown in the series. However, the variant "they live their lives again from childhood" hasn't been used. (A pop-culture example is Richard Matheson's
SPOILER:
What Dreams May Come).
Still, it seems unlikely that MS will go there.



So, if not any of those, then what? My guess: the main six characters---possibly with the addition of Shawn and a Bad Janet---will be promoted to becoming a collective God (essentially). They will go on working together and solving problems. The Point System may be abandoned and only hints of what will replace it will be discussed, maybe, leaving that bit of open-endedness that we tend to expect from the wrap-ups of beloved shows.

All that sounds banal---but there is a certain glory to the idea that fans of the show might enjoy. Eleanor, the screw-up, part of God! There's something to identify with in that concept.
I don’t know if you’re glossing over this option because it’s so obvious and/or it’d be unsatisfying, but: what if everyone who’s earned a spot in The Bad Place pretty much goes through what these folks did?

So the default experience is, you arrive in what seems to be The Good Place; and it eventually becomes clear that you’re living a lie since you can see that your faults in life, which you’re only now really coming to grips with, would’ve plausibly landed you in The Bad Place; so you get put through your paces, going on a big adventure of self-exploration and improvement alongside a soulmate who’s doing likewise; and, however long it takes to get to a point where you’ve truly come to see the error of your ways and can now passionately make a philosophical case for how things should be, you enter a version of The Good Place (a) that you soon realize ain’t quite right, (b) and you set to tinkering with it until you find it acceptable.

Sure, we just watched them do that; but everyone in that situation does that...
  #179  
Old 01-26-2020, 09:25 PM
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Yeah, finding a balance point where everything is fixed, reasonable and happy is going to be a chore. But Schur hasn't disappointed me so far. I'm willing to trust him to finish the ride as well as he's run it so far.
  #180  
Old 01-26-2020, 09:28 PM
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As much as I'd like to see the gang (and some other Good Placers like Hypatia) become Architects in their own right I don't feel that will be the ending. My guess is that the finale will involve one or more of them finally deciding to step through that doorway, and we won't see what happens next.

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...
-Godhood a la mormonism. Create your own universe...
To be fair Janet didn't explicitly say the walking though the door equals oblivion; just that it ended one's existence in this universe.
  #181  
Old 01-26-2020, 10:48 PM
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They walk through the door and end up in Cheers? I can think of worse places to hang out for a long time.
  #182  
Old 01-27-2020, 10:54 AM
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---SEE WHAT (MIGHT) BECOME OF THE CHARACTERS: Both Star Trek: The Next Generation and Star Trek: Voyager used this device. Something causes a trip decades into the future that lets us see "what happened" to the characters, without committing to a declaration that this is what definitely happens to the characters--it's all just one possible future. It may have been satisfying for those particular shows, but Schur won't want to duplicate the device.
Schur did that for Parks and Rec, which is frankly one of my favorite series finales ever.
  #183  
Old 01-27-2020, 04:37 PM
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Schur did that for Parks and Rec, which is frankly one of my favorite series finales ever.
Yes, it's popular, because it lets people believe what they want to about the ultimate fates of the characters, while still getting the fun of seeing one possible fate/future.

I guess he might use it again, but I would be a bit surprised because there would inevitably be criticism ('one trick pony' and the like).
  #184  
Old 01-27-2020, 04:46 PM
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I don’t know if you’re glossing over this option because it’s so obvious and/or it’d be unsatisfying, but: what if everyone who’s earned a spot in The Bad Place pretty much goes through what these folks did?

So the default experience is, you arrive in what seems to be The Good Place; and it eventually becomes clear that you’re living a lie since you can see that your faults in life, which you’re only now really coming to grips with, would’ve plausibly landed you in The Bad Place; so you get put through your paces, going on a big adventure of self-exploration and improvement alongside a soulmate who’s doing likewise; and, however long it takes to get to a point where you’ve truly come to see the error of your ways and can now passionately make a philosophical case for how things should be, you enter a version of The Good Place (a) that you soon realize ain’t quite right, (b) and you set to tinkering with it until you find it acceptable.

Sure, we just watched them do that; but everyone in that situation does that...
You could be right. It would be a twist. And (if I'm remembering correctly....?) none of them have had extensive conversations with people being tortured in the Bad Place, so it can't be ruled out that the people being tortured previously went through an experience such as Eleanor et al have had.

One problem with the idea is that the 'Michael the demon gets a brand new idea for a Bad Place neighborhood--make it look like a Good Place neighborhood' plot element wouldn't work with it. Or at least, not in a way that I can see.



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... The Point System may be abandoned and only hints of what will replace it will be discussed, maybe, leaving that bit of open-endedness that we tend to expect from the wrap-ups of beloved shows. ...
I do feel confident in predicting that one part of the finale will be an explicit abandonment of the "damned for eternity because of unintended consequences of a good act" element.

Being held responsible for unintended consequences of carelessness or negligence strikes most people as "fair"----but being held responsible because the consequence of a consequence of a consequence (etc) of an act that was not careless or negligent, turned out badly, does not strike most people as being just or reasonable or fair.

So they'll deal with that, I think.
  #185  
Old 01-27-2020, 04:56 PM
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I do feel confident in predicting that one part of the finale will be an explicit abandonment of the "damned for eternity because of unintended consequences of a good act" element.

Being held responsible for unintended consequences of carelessness or negligence strikes most people as "fair"----but being held responsible because the consequence of a consequence of a consequence (etc) of an act that was not careless or negligent, turned out badly, does not strike most people as being just or reasonable or fair.

So they'll deal with that, I think.
They already dealt with it. Three episodes ago when they came up with the new system.
  #186  
Old 01-27-2020, 05:28 PM
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They already dealt with it. Three episodes ago when they came up with the new system.
I don't recall that dialog; I'll have to watch the episode again. I thought they just decided to let everyone have an extended time---after death, not before---to try to improve.
  #187  
Old 01-27-2020, 06:10 PM
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Maybe I'm not understanding what you're trying to say. The entire plotline of this season, if not the show is "Trying to judge someone for eternity based on what they did in their short life is unfair." The solution is "Everyone will get as many chances as they need in the afterlife to try and be a better person." That plot line is resolved. They aren't going to throw that all out in the last second.
  #188  
Old 01-27-2020, 06:31 PM
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They walk through the door and end up in Cheers? I can think of worse places to hang out for a long time.
Eleanor wakes up next to Bob Newhart and realizes it was all a nightmare.
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Old 01-27-2020, 07:06 PM
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You could be right. It would be a twist. And (if I'm remembering correctly....?) none of them have had extensive conversations with people being tortured in the Bad Place, so it can't be ruled out that the people being tortured previously went through an experience such as Eleanor et al have had.

One problem with the idea is that the 'Michael the demon gets a brand new idea for a Bad Place neighborhood--make it look like a Good Place neighborhood' plot element wouldn't work with it. Or at least, not in a way that I can see.
Well, this whole experience has also made Michael a better person, right? He went from being ‘the insulting demon who laughs at people while trying to concoct new and interesting ways to make them suffer’ to being ‘the guy you just saw, in this latest episode, getting asked to make The Good Place better; and the audience pretty much thought, yeah, I like the idea of him taking point on that.

So you could — if you wanted — help a demon think he just now came up with an innovative breakthrough, one he’d want to experiment with (a) tout de suite, and (b) while cackling; and, in the inevitable getting-to-know-you phase of watching humans who get a second chance work at making themselves into better people, why, he’d become wise and compassionate too.

And you could run demon after demon after demon through that, while working to lift quartet after quartet after quartet of humans into, uh, heavenliness.
  #190  
Old 01-27-2020, 07:37 PM
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Maybe I'm not understanding what you're trying to say. The entire plotline of this season, if not the show is "Trying to judge someone for eternity based on what they did in their short life is unfair." The solution is "Everyone will get as many chances as they need in the afterlife to try and be a better person." That plot line is resolved. They aren't going to throw that all out in the last second.
I think Sherrerd is referring to the bit where the show explains that you used to get points for buying roses for your grandmother, but now it is a net negative because they were from Monsanto seeds, and picked by child laborers and shipped over here by smoggy vehicles (I don't remember the exact ways the roses were immorally created). It seems unfair to lose points for that even if you later get to rectify it.

I think that, and other parts of the point system are somewhat flawed, but I don't think they have enough time to gives the characters motivation to fix it, and to fix it, given how it does seem to be somewhat mitigated by not really mattering in the end, but I've been wrong about this show before.

Last edited by Taber; 01-27-2020 at 07:40 PM. Reason: 2nd paragraph
  #191  
Old 01-27-2020, 07:39 PM
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Eleanor wakes up next to Bob Newhart and realizes it was all a nightmare.
Exactly what I was going for.
  #192  
Old 01-27-2020, 08:59 PM
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Here's my crazy speculation:

First they realized that having everything you want for eternity will be terrible. So they introduced essentially death with a promise of heaven ("it will be peaceful, but that's all we know"), which seems to invigorate everyone.

Next, they'll find out that always getting what you want is also boring. And the absence of evil will make being good kind of pointless. The concept of struggle will be re-introduced. Maybe they'll mix the people from the good and bad place, so good and evil can interact.

In the end they're going to discover that they have re-invented Earth, and that there is no need for a good place or a bad place at all. Just Earth, and maybe death becomes reincarnation on Earth (equivalent to the memory wipes).

In the end, we wind up with a secular Earth with no heaven and no hell. It's up to the individual and their own behaviour to make it their good or bad place.

I'm probably totally wrong, so don't worry about the possible spoiler.
  #193  
Old 01-27-2020, 09:58 PM
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The ending revealed!


TV Guide has a description of the upcoming finale tat gives it all away:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TV Guide
Various conversations take place among Various groups of people.
Oops. Forgot the spoiler tags.
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  #194  
Old 01-28-2020, 12:39 AM
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They decide that pushing the button on the earth rebooting garage door opener thingie is really the only solution.
  #195  
Old 01-28-2020, 12:40 AM
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TV Guide has a description of the upcoming finale tat gives it all away:



Oops. Forgot the spoiler tags.
Netral Janet’s description of every episode.
  #196  
Old 01-28-2020, 09:11 AM
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Yeah, I mean. I think you just landed on the analogy. Life has meaning because it ends. To give the afterlife meaning, it also has to end.

Janet doesn't know, because the whole point is that they're letting people pass OUT of known existence. And, just like WE don't really know what happens when people die, Janet (still a being OF this known existence) can't really know what happens when somebody passes out of it.
Though I was thinking that maybe one of the reasons everyone is so bored is that there hasn't been a new person coming in in the last 500+ years. New people every so often would make things a lot more interesting - new conversations, new concepts of what is going on, etc. I think that aspect was ignored.

Though being able to end your existence on a high is good too.
  #197  
Old 01-28-2020, 01:55 PM
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Though I was thinking that maybe one of the reasons everyone is so bored is that there hasn't been a new person coming in in the last 500+ years. New people every so often would make things a lot more interesting - new conversations, new concepts of what is going on, etc. I think that aspect was ignored.

Though being able to end your existence on a high is good too.
I think this was actually answered a little with Lisa Kudrow's character. She DID seem to be energized by the new people somewhat, but it wasn't enough to overcome the brain melting nature of eternity.

One of my favorite things about the episode was how she didn't decide to walk out the door immediately, but the presence of the door made a huge difference for her. Really underlined the point they were making, I think.
  #198  
Old 01-28-2020, 08:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enalzi View Post
...The entire plotline of this season, if not the show is "Trying to judge someone for eternity based on what they did in their short life is unfair." The solution is "Everyone will get as many chances as they need in the afterlife to try and be a better person." That plot line is resolved. They aren't going to throw that all out in the last second.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taber View Post
I think Sherrerd is referring to the bit where the show explains that you used to get points for buying roses for your grandmother, but now it is a net negative because they were from Monsanto seeds, and picked by child laborers and shipped over here by smoggy vehicles (I don't remember the exact ways the roses were immorally created). It seems unfair to lose points for that even if you later get to rectify it....
Right--I wasn't referring to the 'not enough time on earth to demonstrate fitness for heaven,' but instead to the way humans were being held personally responsible for things they couldn't, realistically, know or control. The "unintended consequences run wild" thing.

I still think the issue of personal responsibility (and its reasonable and fair limits) will play a part in the finale. But of course there's a lot to be shoe-horned into that hour or so ( a bit unclear, given that there is apparently an aftershow in the time slot, too). So we'll see.



Quote:
Originally Posted by The Other Waldo Pepper View Post
Well, this whole experience has also made Michael a better person, right? He went from being ‘the insulting demon who laughs at people while trying to concoct new and interesting ways to make them suffer’ to being ‘the guy you just saw, in this latest episode, getting asked to make The Good Place better; and the audience pretty much thought, yeah, I like the idea of him taking point on that.

So you could — if you wanted — help a demon think he just now came up with an innovative breakthrough, one he’d want to experiment with (a) tout de suite, and (b) while cackling; and, in the inevitable getting-to-know-you phase of watching humans who get a second chance work at making themselves into better people, why, he’d become wise and compassionate too.

And you could run demon after demon after demon through that, while working to lift quartet after quartet after quartet of humans into, uh, heavenliness.
I agree that the issue of the demons and potential personal growth for them should be dealt with in some way.

Of course, I'd like more closure on the origins of a system containing demons, a Good Place Committee, AI-units with nearly unlimited capabilities, and a powerful judge who seems obsessed with American popular culture---but I don't know if we'll get that.
  #199  
Old 01-29-2020, 02:26 AM
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This is pretty much how Christopher Hitchens described the concept of a religious afterlife. It might sound a bit depressing to be told (regarding your existence on Earth) "The party will go on, but you have to leave", but it's somewhat worse to be told (regarding your existence in an eternal afterlife) "The party will go on forever, and you can never leave. Further, the boss commands that you have a good time."

Anyway, I think the pending arrival of millions of new souls should provide enough novelty to shake the longterm residents out of their ruts for a while (not eternally, of course, but for a while) though they seem to be aware of developments on Earth, which I'd've thought would have the same effect.
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Last edited by Bryan Ekers; 01-29-2020 at 02:28 AM.
  #200  
Old 01-29-2020, 09:29 PM
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People have been making jokes about the Christian heaven forever, like they'd be bored with all the pious people or that they'd want to go to hell because that's where their friends would be. The obvious flaw with this reasoning is that it's human-centered nonsense. If heaven is perfect, then it's perfect. Perfect is not flawed or boring or short-lived.

The Good Life is obviously about Christian eschatology so the same objection holds here. Humans can't imagine a world higher than humanity. All they can do is imagine what they've already experienced and nothing that transcends that. It's not satire to give us non-transcendence; satire would be mocking us thinking that we could possibly imagine it.

The last episode was a lot funnier than they've been. All the lines were not only sharp but built character. The surroundings sucked. Not one of those people died less than 500 years ago, so the party would have been incomprehensible. No different from Christians somehow believing that they will see all their dead ancestors in heaven, who somehow will know everything that has happened in all the years since they died and also speak English. The show wasn't satirizing that nonsense; the plot depended on it being real. Christians, amirite?

Tomorrow's ep is 90 minutes, so I'm hoping for some twists to get past this Sunday-school infantilization and into something interesting. At the very least, keep up this level of funny.
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