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Old 11-20-2019, 09:55 PM
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The Irishman SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS


Just saw it. Fantastic but depressing movie.

Not as “fun” as Goodfellas or Casino in that 20 years from now bros are going to be repeating lines with glee from the movie. It also moves at a more somber pace than those two with way less music.

Great performances by Robert Deniro and Joe Pesci of course but Al Pacino is off the charts as Jimmy Hoffa.
Was not distracted by the aging effects.

I read the book the movie is based on so I knew exactly what was going to happen next but most of the audience was audibly shocked by some of the violent scenes.




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Old 11-20-2019, 11:21 PM
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Seen it. Its Scorseses Godfather 3. A few notes:

I disagree about Pacino. He was completely unbelievable as Hoffa. Hoffa was a rough tough bluecollar type. Pacino is a loudmouthed toupeed attention whore.DeNiro would have been much better and believable as Hoffa. He looks old but he still looks tough and intimidating.

Pesci was very good and understated as a mob boss.

DeNiro still brilliant at 75 and carried the film.

I felt like Netflix cheaped out on the film. Gone was a music budget that helped make Goodfellas and Casino so good. There was little action. Mostly the film is conversation and exposition through conversation.

Study the history of the period. Historical figures and events fly by and those who arent aware of the backstory could easily get lost in this 210 minute film.

Remember that the narrator is unreliable.

Its really not necessary to see this in a theater. As mentioned earlier, there is little action.

Recommended but not Top Shelf Scorsese.
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Old 11-20-2019, 11:40 PM
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Those are fair comments except the movie cost $140 million to make so I can’t say anyone “cheaped out”!

Pacino was definitely buffoonish (he kinda reminded me of Silvio on Sopranos) but it was so over the top I was thoroughly entertained.


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Old 11-22-2019, 02:52 AM
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Not as “fun” as Goodfellas or Casino in that 20 years from now bros are going to be repeating lines with glee from the movie.
Not because it's not fun, but because it will have no cultural impact. Taxi Driver wasn't fun, but everybody, even those who haven't seen it, know "You talkin' to me?".

Netflix turned it into a glorified made-for-TV movie by denying it a decent wide theatrical release, and there's SO much stuff on TV to watch it'll get lost. It may or may not have been popular/made money with a wide release, but we'll never know. We can assume it is a "box office bomb" since it cost so much to make and is playing in so few theaters, but Netflix, unlike all the major and most of the indie studios, won't release the numbers. People are bitching about Disney while letting Netflix get away with murder.

Sorry, I had to rant.
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Old 12-02-2019, 03:44 PM
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The whole movie screamed, "It's time to let younger actors step up and do their thing." Goodfellas was Ray Liotta and Joe Pesci energy. Wife and girlfriend energy were strong, too, to bring something else to the movie depicting the life of some men.

Now, with The Irishman, we cling to scraps, with old guys who are too old to bring energy to the movie, or so old that they prevent the writing freedom that would enable it. In the end, it was a nice, boring homage to some guys who were too old to bring it anymore. It suffered because of them or was written down several levels for them.

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Old 12-02-2019, 04:34 PM
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The whole movie screamed, "It's time to let younger actors step up and do their thing." Goodfellas was Ray Liotta and Joe Pesci energy. Wife and girlfriend energy were strong, too, to bring something else to the movie depicting the life of some men.

Now, with The Irishman, we cling to scraps, with old guys who are too old to bring energy to the movie, or so old that they prevent the writing freedom that would enable it. In the end, it was a nice, boring homage to some guys who were too old to bring it anymore. It suffered because of them or was written down several levels for them.
I wouldn't go that far, but I think the movie definitely suffered from using the same actors to depict the same characters over decades. DeNiro, Pesci, and Pacino would have been fine playing the characters at their own ages, or close to it. But for me, having them play much younger men through CGI just didn't work well. What would Godfather II have been like if the technology had been available then and Brando had played Vito as a younger man as well? Surely there are younger actors who could have handled the role. The movie wanted to feature three iconic actors as much as possible, but I don't think this was the best way to tell a dynamic story.
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Old 12-02-2019, 04:41 PM
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Since this a spoilers okay thread- why did they make Chuckie into an unwitting accomplice?
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Old 12-02-2019, 04:48 PM
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I read somewhere most theaters did not want to run a movie that lasts 3.5 hours. Can't say I blame them.
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Old 12-02-2019, 04:58 PM
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I started watching it and I thought De Niro was excellent, as usual, but the story was kind of dragging, and it was my only day off of the week, it was late and I was tired so I dozed off. I awoke seven hours later and the movie was still on and there was still an hour and half left, so I bailed.

I may try to catch up on it again. When I woke up in the middle I saw Pacino's Hoffa and I at least thought that he was acting this time, not just doing Pacino doing someone else as he seems to have done lately.
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Old 12-02-2019, 05:21 PM
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Since this a spoilers okay thread- why did they make Chuckie into an unwitting accomplice?
I didn't understand any of that scene. What was the point of tricking Hoffa into thinking he was meeting with Tony? What exactly was Frank and that other guy doing in Hoffa's house before Chuckie came to pick them up, and why did they take Hoffa back there?



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Old 12-02-2019, 05:32 PM
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Since this a spoilers okay thread- why did they make Chuckie into an unwitting accomplice?
IRL Chuckie O'Brian was a suspected accomplice according to the FBI. He at least was driving Tony Giacalone's car around, who was supposed to be meeting Hoffa. The story about the fish was true as well. O'Brian claimed he had to deliver a frozen salmon that morning and that was why he took the car to a car wash later. Sheeran said he drove the car but was unaware Hoffa was to be killed.
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Old 12-02-2019, 05:40 PM
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I didn't understand any of that scene. What was the point of tricking Hoffa into thinking he was meeting with Tony? What exactly was Frank and that other guy doing in Hoffa's house before Chuckie came to pick them up, and why did they take Hoffa back there?
It wasn't Hoffa's house, but one they obtained in order to lure him there in promise of a meeting to kill him out of sight. The other two guys besides Frank and Bugs were there to dispose of the body after Sheeran did the deed.
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Old 12-02-2019, 05:47 PM
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Al Pacino is off the charts as Jimmy Hoffa.
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I disagree about Pacino. He was completely unbelievable as Hoffa. Hoffa was a rough tough bluecollar type. Pacino is a loudmouthed toupeed attention whore.DeNiro would have been much better and believable as Hoffa. He looks old but he still looks tough and intimidating.
I thought that Pacino did a good job acting, in particular in not playing another version of himself, but the person he was portraying was not Hoffa but some other creation. I recall Hoffa from the 1960s and 1970s and he wasn't like Pacino's portrayal.
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Old 12-03-2019, 10:39 AM
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I liked it.
De-aging is in its early days. The results were mixed. I thought Joe Pesci was done well, Al Pacino was ok and De Niro varied almost scenery ti scene.
In retrospect they should have for the younger scenes, especially the more athletic ones gone with at stand in with a younger version of the actors faces added.
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Old 12-03-2019, 12:29 PM
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...The other two guys besides Frank and Bugs were there to dispose of the body after Sheeran did the deed.
But they weren't (shown as being) there when Sheeran killed Hoffa. Seemed unnecessarily complex, to have them there, then gone, then come back to dispose of the body.

And what was Bugs cutting on the foyer floor? Looked like linoleum. I assume to wrap the body in?

I thought the movie did a poor job WRT Chuckie's involvement as well. Just about all they showed him do before was stick up for Hoffa in the ctrm. If so loyal, why did he help kill Hoffa? If an unwitting accomplice, why not mentioned later?

Oh - I guess they didn't want the movie to run too long!
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Old 12-03-2019, 01:50 PM
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WRT to chuckie and also the daughters, I don't think this was a regular movie. It was a mini series trying to tell a lot of information in a short time frame. I agree they forgot to make chuckies story coherent. It was a big deal to have his kid driving to the murder scene.

And the aging, flashing back, de aging, applied to a whole family of three girls(?) in and out, up and down, it's confusing. The little girl we saw become disillusioned is maybe the grown up woman giving that look?
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Old 12-03-2019, 02:21 PM
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The whole movie screamed, "It's time to let younger actors step up and do their thing." Goodfellas was Ray Liotta and Joe Pesci energy. Wife and girlfriend energy were strong, too, to bring something else to the movie depicting the life of some men.

Now, with The Irishman, we cling to scraps, with old guys who are too old to bring energy to the movie, or so old that they prevent the writing freedom that would enable it. In the end, it was a nice, boring homage to some guys who were too old to bring it anymore. It suffered because of them or was written down several levels for them.
Unfortunately, I think I'd go that far too.

I'm in my late 50s so I'm not too, too far removed from these guys. But it did seems as though 4 old Hollywood types said "heh, lets all go to the studio, and have one final good old time hanging out. And oh by the way we'll film it too!

It didn't have much energy. And Pachino didn't see a scene that he couldn't chew his way though. My last issue is not matter what one thought about the age CGI, they certainly could change how they moved. And they moved as if they were old men. Took me (and my wife) out of the flashback scenes.
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Old 12-03-2019, 02:23 PM
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WRT to chuckie and also the daughters, I don't think this was a regular movie. It was a mini series ...
That may really be it. It was not a movie but did not commit to being a one season Netflix show and the pacing for that.
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Old 12-03-2019, 02:39 PM
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I found the flashback within a flackback to be...weird. Not bad but disorienting. One moment we see Frank in the nursing home. He takes us back to the time when he and Russ were setting out on the road trip with their wives. They pull over for smokes and notice the gas station. And then we are taken on another flashback journey.

It kinda reminded me of Inception. But unlike Inception, it didn't serve a clear purpose. Why not start the story at the gas station scene?

Is it because Frank is old, and old people are given to starting one story and then going off on a tandem with another story?

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Old 12-03-2019, 02:58 PM
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The only thing this had in common with Goodfellas and Casino is that it confirms my belief that Joe Pesci is the only actor alive who can steal a scene from Robert De Nero. Other than that the only clever thing about this film is it’s euphemism for shooting people in the head.
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Old 12-03-2019, 03:04 PM
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Pretty neat apparent extended take to start the film off.
Probably the highpoint...

The guy in the office next to me is a HUGE fan of mob literature and film. He LOVED this film. And then proceeded to tell me all about Sheeran's book, and many others, while discussing the various theories re: Hoffa's disappearance...
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Old 12-03-2019, 05:20 PM
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Someone sent me this , the woman disagrees with most critics. And yes I know this is the Murdoch owned NY Post.

https://nypost.com/2019/12/03/go-ahe...n-is-terrible/
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Old 12-03-2019, 06:19 PM
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Someone sent me this , the woman disagrees with most critics. And yes I know this is the Murdoch owned NY Post.

https://nypost.com/2019/12/03/go-ahe...n-is-terrible/
Some of her arguments are bizarre. She complains that some of the source material, like Kennedy being assassinated by the mob and Hoffa's murder at the hand of his friend, as being treated without skepticism. That's a fair criticism for a documentary. But, in a movie, what were they supposed to do? Show a scene, but have a disclaimer at the bottom stating that this might not have happened like this?
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Old 12-03-2019, 06:43 PM
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one of the rumors about Hoffa's body was that it was buried in the endzone of the old Giants stadium. I think the FBI even looked into that. My uncle did the grading and paving for the stadium. He was Italian but not connected to the mob. I did not hear that rumor until after my uncle died, maybe I would have asked him about it.
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Old 12-03-2019, 06:50 PM
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The whole movie screamed, "It's time to let younger actors step up and do their thing." Goodfellas was Ray Liotta and Joe Pesci energy. Wife and girlfriend energy were strong, too, to bring something else to the movie depicting the life of some men.

Now, with The Irishman, we cling to scraps, with old guys who are too old to bring energy to the movie...
I am on recoprd to say I think The Irishman was a mediocre movie, but Joe Pesci was great. DeNiro was badly miscast and Pacino was bad, but don't lump Pesci in there. His performance was outstanding.

With the former two, I never thought I was looking at Frank Sheeran or Jimmy Hoffa; I was watching Robert DeNiro and Al Pacino act like they do. With Joe Pesci, I never once thought "it's Joe Pesci doing Joe Pesci stuff." I felt like I was watching a man named Russell Bufalino.
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Old 12-04-2019, 05:08 AM
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I'm not gonna slag the acting of De Niro or Pacino because they can both act, but oh my god the CGI de-aging so didn't work. People have mentioned, they still moved like old men and mostly looked like old men. At no point did De Niro look anything less than 50 years old, and there were times when he should have (being called "kid," baptiziing his children). While mostly I thought the cinematography was great, there comes a time to cut. Get on the plane, get off the plane, we don't need to see the plane take off, fly, and land, and then take off and land again. Yeah, those were really nice landings (I heard you paint runways). But, enough. There was also a long, uncomfortable, and totally redundant scene where it looked like somebody's needle got stuck in the groove, they've said it, they've said it again, get out of this scene. Writers get told all the time, "Kill your darlings." I think there were some darlings here that needed killing.

It could have been a normal length. It could have had age-appropriate actors. I do get that oh, this is Scorcese, Pacino, De Niro, and Pesci but if it's not entertaining, fuhgeddabout it. There are better organized crime movies.

And quite frankly it's hard for me to think of De Niro as an Irishman, let alone THE Irishman. This was made a lot harder by having to look at him.

Come on guys, retire already. Let somebody from a younger generation get famous.

I'm not even gonna mention the scene where I first thought Hoffa was wearing a Nixon mask. Yes, I found that distracting. Also the bad wig.
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Old 12-04-2019, 08:23 AM
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I give it a meh+. Worth seeing if you are into the subject and/or the cast/director. I might rewatch it sometime, but not for a while.
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Old 12-04-2019, 08:37 AM
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But they weren't (shown as being) there when Sheeran killed Hoffa. Seemed unnecessarily complex, to have them there, then gone, then come back to dispose of the body.
I assumed they were still there, just out of sight.
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Old 12-04-2019, 09:28 AM
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I am on recoprd to say I think The Irishman was a mediocre movie, but Joe Pesci was great. DeNiro was badly miscast and Pacino was bad, but don't lump Pesci in there. His performance was outstanding.
I couldn't agree more.
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Old 12-04-2019, 05:53 PM
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Seen it. Its Scorseses Godfather 3. A few notes:

I disagree about Pacino. He was completely unbelievable as Hoffa. Hoffa was a rough tough bluecollar type. Pacino is a loudmouthed toupeed attention whore.DeNiro would have been much better and believable as Hoffa. He looks old but he still looks tough and intimidating.

Pesci was very good and understated as a mob boss.

DeNiro still brilliant at 75 and carried the film.

I felt like Netflix cheaped out on the film. Gone was a music budget that helped make Goodfellas and Casino so good. There was little action. Mostly the film is conversation and exposition through conversation.

Study the history of the period. Historical figures and events fly by and those who arent aware of the backstory could easily get lost in this 210 minute film.

Remember that the narrator is unreliable.

Its really not necessary to see this in a theater. As mentioned earlier, there is little action.

Recommended but not Top Shelf Scorsese.
Saw it after reading about it here.
I remember the 70s Teamster deal fairly well, my dad's company had tractors arriving back at the yard with *bullet* holes in them [the company had its own drivers and tractors and was not unionized.] I can remember a fair amount of stuff going on from watching the 6 00 news with my dad and discussing it over dinner - and I can remember the 80s as well.

I actually enjoyed it - spotting stuff that I knew from teh news and conversations, though not completely happy with the casting and CGI, it was ok though it did take me out of the story a few times. It is correct, they did always move like old men when CGI'd younger.

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one of the rumors about Hoffa's body was that it was buried in the endzone of the old Giants stadium. I think the FBI even looked into that. My uncle did the grading and paving for the stadium. He was Italian but not connected to the mob. I did not hear that rumor until after my uncle died, maybe I would have asked him about it.
I always thought they did something really permanent like chopping him in small enough pieces and dumping him off a boat to feed fishes, but hauling him to a crematory makes perfect sense. He could also have been chopped small enough and dumped into a sewage treatment plant - those little bugs will digest anything remotely organic [a friend who worked in sewage treatment back in the 80s suggested it]
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Old 12-04-2019, 10:34 PM
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I loved the movie but respect and understand many of the opinions otherwise.

I too can’t wrap my head around the set up to the Hoffa hit it’s explained in the book just can’t remember why they did all the car switching.

Now that I think of it during the Frank Sheehan Testimonial, Tony Salerno has a bug up his ass about Hoffa because he predicted he was going to call in the Teamster loans, can anyone expand on what Salerno was afraid Hoffa was going to do (a fear that had a lot to do with why he was whacked).


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Old 12-04-2019, 10:54 PM
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Some of her arguments are bizarre. She complains that some of the source material, like Kennedy being assassinated by the mob and Hoffa's murder at the hand of his friend, as being treated without skepticism. That's a fair criticism for a documentary. But, in a movie, what were they supposed to do? Show a scene, but have a disclaimer at the bottom stating that this might not have happened like this?

There’s a theory out there that Frank Sheeran was just a senile old man that was a periphery player in the underworld that weaved a colossal death-bed bubbameister.

Similar things have been said about Henry Hill which Goodfellas is based on.

Doesn’t mean they don’t make for entertaining movies!




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Old 12-05-2019, 01:31 AM
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While the Hoffa murder set up bit made little sense to me I did find Frank’s refusal to sit in the front knowing who would be behind him and what we know from a past scene as a bit funny.
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Old 12-05-2019, 01:04 PM
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I found it long, boring and visually off-putting. And I love Goodfellas, Casino and The Departed. Maybe Scorsese should have cast Matt Damon, Mark Wahlberg and Leonardo DeCaprio to play younger versions of these guys?

I thought they made Pacino look like Ciarán Hinds, the guy who played Mance Raydar on Game of Thrones.


Honestly, I couldn't figure out why or if I should care about any of these characters.

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Old 12-05-2019, 01:08 PM
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I thought they made Pacino look like Ciarán Hinds, the guy who played Mance Raydar on Game of Thrones.
And Julius Caesar in Rome. I actually thought that's who it was when he first appeared on the screen. It took me a few minutes to realize that was Pacino (and the character was supposed to be Hoffa.)
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Old 12-05-2019, 01:24 PM
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While the Hoffa murder set up bit made little sense to me I did find Frank’s refusal to sit in the front knowing who would be behind him and what we know from a past scene as a bit funny.
In movies like this that scene usually precedes the strangulation of the guy who ended up in the front seat. That it didn't happen is kind of confusing in itself.
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Old 12-05-2019, 01:26 PM
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I did not hear that rumor until after my uncle died, maybe I would have asked him about it.
Your uncle didn't die in mysterious circumstances, did he? That might be a clue...
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Old 12-06-2019, 11:33 AM
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Was the shooting schedule rushed? I can think of at least 4 scenes that desperately needed another take. Pesci was outstanding and pulled off old man Russ perfectly. DeNiro played the same character he always plays in these movies. Pacino characteristically overacted but succeeded nevertheless through intensity and presence. Nobody pulls off simmering rage better than Stephen Graham (though his accent was a bit much.). Why on fucking Earth did MS cast Domenick Lombardozzi as Tony Salerno? They couldn't find a balding, fat, older Italian guy? Any bonuses MS thought he might get from Lobardozzi's acting was offset by a longshot by the distracting ageing makeup.
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Old 12-06-2019, 11:41 AM
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Moderator Note

The above post was originally posted to the "Russian Doll" thread. Since it obviously was a comment about The Irishman, I moved it to this thread. Let me know if something else was intended.

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Old 12-06-2019, 12:09 PM
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Your uncle didn't die in mysterious circumstances, did he? That might be a clue...
No he died from heart trouble at age 80.
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Old 12-06-2019, 02:47 PM
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My take... it's good. It's a swan song... but...

This should have been Jesse Plemmons star turn and he should have played Sheeran. The de-aging only worked on DeNiro to make his age nebulous in every scene... was he 40 in WW2? In their meet scene Pesci keeps calling DeNiro "kid"... they look the same age? It's just face vague-ing not de-aging.

You cast Plemmons who actually looks kind of like Sheeran--Sheeran wasn't well-spoken, he's a mumbly brute...which is more in Plemmons wheel-house.
I think it was a huge missed opportunity that I wish Scorese had taken. I get that DeNiro was the one who wanted to get this made but...he should not have played the lead.
  #42  
Old 12-06-2019, 06:22 PM
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Moderator Note

The above post was originally posted to the "Russian Doll" thread. Since it obviously was a comment about The Irishman, I moved it to this thread. Let me know if something else was intended.

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  #43  
Old 12-07-2019, 09:56 AM
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at the start of Goodfellas the De Niro character Jimmy Conway was supposed to be 30 but De Niro was 47 when the movie came out.

As far as a former mafia guy bragging about his exploits that may not be true, Henry Hill always said he never killed anyone but people doubt that claim since he worked with the mob for over 20 years.
  #44  
Old 12-07-2019, 10:51 AM
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As far as a former mafia guy bragging about his exploits that may not be true, Henry Hill always said he never killed anyone but people doubt that claim since he worked with the mob for over 20 years.
Of course. Hill was in witness protection (until they threw him out of it) so wouldn't want to confess to any murders. In any case, Sheeran would be the opposite case since no one apparently ever suspected him of any murders until he claimed to have committed not one but two of the most famous hits in history.
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Old 12-08-2019, 10:40 PM
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I'm not gonna slag the acting of De Niro or Pacino because they can both act, but oh my god the CGI de-aging so didn't work. People have mentioned, they still moved like old men and mostly looked like old men. At no point did De Niro look anything less than 50 years old, and there were times when he should have (being called "kid," baptiziing his children). While mostly I thought the cinematography was great, there comes a time to cut. Get on the plane, get off the plane, we don't need to see the plane take off, fly, and land, and then take off and land again. Yeah, those were really nice landings (I heard you paint runways). But, enough. There was also a long, uncomfortable, and totally redundant scene where it looked like somebody's needle got stuck in the groove, they've said it, they've said it again, get out of this scene. Writers get told all the time, "Kill your darlings." I think there were some darlings here that needed killing.

It could have been a normal length. It could have had age-appropriate actors. I do get that oh, this is Scorcese, Pacino, De Niro, and Pesci but if it's not entertaining, fuhgeddabout it. There are better organized crime movies.

And quite frankly it's hard for me to think of De Niro as an Irishman, let alone THE Irishman. This was made a lot harder by having to look at him.

Come on guys, retire already. Let somebody from a younger generation get famous.

I'm not even gonna mention the scene where I first thought Hoffa was wearing a Nixon mask. Yes, I found that distracting. Also the bad wig.
As Joseph Gordon-Levitt said to Bruce Willis (in which the latter appropriately played an older version of the former's character, without relying on CGI to down-age Willis), it’s time for these older actors to "do what old men do, and die."

I don’t mean literally, but yeah, this movie needed younger actors up-aged through makeup where necessary, not old actors who couldn’t act young to save their lives. And seriously, two of the most well-known Italian American actors of all time playing an Irishman and a Pennsylvania Dutch. Was that really necessary?

Netflix is making like it won’t give this movie a wide-release as an effort to play hardball with theater chains. The truth is, it just wouldn’t do that well and would become an unmistakable box office bomb. How the hell did they spend so much money on this? Was it the CGI?

Anyway, 6 out of 10 for me.
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Old 12-09-2019, 01:03 PM
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I watched this movie and thought, "Yep, that's a Scorsese flick." I enjoyed it, but it was the same old thing as all the other flicks he's made.
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Old 12-09-2019, 04:48 PM
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It was nominated for some Golden Globes including best picture drama

https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/09/enter...ons/index.html
  #48  
Old 12-09-2019, 05:32 PM
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How the hell did they spend so much money on this? Was it the CGI?
Yes, much of the very high cost was due to the extensive CGI.
  #49  
Old 12-09-2019, 07:31 PM
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As Joseph Gordon-Levitt said to Bruce Willis (in which the latter appropriately played an older version of the former's character, without relying on CGI to down-age Willis), it’s time for these older actors to "do what old men do, and die."

I don’t mean literally, but yeah, this movie needed younger actors up-aged through makeup where necessary, not old actors who couldn’t act young to save their lives. And seriously, two of the most well-known Italian American actors of all time playing an Irishman and a Pennsylvania Dutch. Was that really necessary?

Netflix is making like it won’t give this movie a wide-release as an effort to play hardball with theater chains. The truth is, it just wouldn’t do that well and would become an unmistakable box office bomb. How the hell did they spend so much money on this? Was it the CGI?

Anyway, 6 out of 10 for me.
I think that whatever we saw was tailored for the medium. If it got a theatrical release it would have been a whole different animal. I have said before it is really a rushed mini series.
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Old 12-09-2019, 10:41 PM
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I have said before it is really a rushed mini series.
Martin Scorsese explains why The Irishman wouldn't have worked as a TV series
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