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  #51  
Old 01-27-2020, 05:01 PM
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I'm not inconsistent - I dislike them both. I also hate Roman Polanski, but two of the three have more than a few defenders on this board, and many more in real life.

I dislike how celebrity allows so many to escape any consequences of their actions. They either buy off justice or just ride their celebrity to an acquittal. They never lose their jobs, their endorsements, their fans. So to see everyone ganging up on Cosby like he's somehow different from all the other celebrity rapists, abusers, and outright murderers that get excused here and in real life every day is galling. They're ALL bad, equally. So let's stop pretending Polanski was just misunderstood, and give him an Oscar, and that Ray Lewis deserved to keep his job and as long as he got his team a superbowl anything he does is A-OK.
Who are you arguing with here? Who (in this thread) said that Polanski is just misunderstood? Who said that Ray Lewis deserved to keep his job?

People? Sure. Some people did. Also, some people are idiots and they're not in this thread.

I don't see Cosby as different from any other convicted serial rapist. I'm not 'ganging up' on him. I am treating him like I would any other serial rapist.
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  #52  
Old 01-27-2020, 05:25 PM
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I would never have thought in the 1990's that Mike Tyson would be rehabilitated in the public eye. A convicted rapist, wife beater, hooker thrasher and part-time cannibal and all-round nut case.
And yet here we are.

How Cosby is remembered even 20-35 years from now is basically unknowable.
Generally agreed, although, to Tyson's "credit," I think it's increasingly well-understood now that he came from an extremely unhealthy background and has mental illnesses and cognitive damage / impairment. None of which excuses his behavior, but definitely makes it all a little easier to be somewhat sympathetic.
  #53  
Old 01-27-2020, 05:29 PM
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Without the power and hubris of celebrity would he still have raped? I wish I knew.
The one thing that I believe is true is that without the power and hubris of celebrity, he would have had a much more difficult time escaping justice.

Why?

1) More women would have called the police and reported the rape. They would not have been afraid that his celebrity would cause them to be dismissed.

2) He would not have raped as many women as he did because so many of his victims went along with him willingly because of his celebrity.

3) The police would have pursued him far more aggressively if he didn't have the celebrity.

Bottom Line?

You have heard that in our system the rich and powerful have a large advantage in escaping punishment. I think that must also include most celebrities. I just wish I was smart enough to suggest some way to do something about that.
  #54  
Old 01-27-2020, 05:30 PM
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Even if he wasnít a convicted rapist I donít think appreciation of his work would have out-survived the generations that would otherwise have looked back in nostalgia. None of his material ages well. The funniest bit on his comedy albums was about child abuse and Saturday Morning TV and 80s sitcoms in general age badly.
I went back to school in my late '30s to learn some programming, and ended up in a lot of classes filled with 18/19 year olds fresh out of high school. They loved them some Bill Cosby. They'd play his old bits on their PCs between classes. It was kind of heartwarming, at the time, that kids born decades after these bits were recorded were still so entertained by them.

Obviously, this was before the rape accusations started piling up.
  #55  
Old 01-27-2020, 05:31 PM
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I'm disappointed by him.
But I will always remember him as the guy who appeared on PBS's The Electric Company, & taught kids to read.
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  #56  
Old 01-27-2020, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Just Asking Questions View Post
I'm not inconsistent - I dislike them both. I also hate Roman Polanski, but two of the three have more than a few defenders on this board, and many more in real life.

I dislike how celebrity allows so many to escape any consequences of their actions.
Yeah, you're being super consistent.

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For I Spy, being a funny guy (right!), Noah (ping!), Jello pudding, Fat Albert, the Cosby Show, The Brown Hornet, The Bill Cosby Show.

You people sure are hard core judgemental.
  #57  
Old 01-27-2020, 05:55 PM
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The one thing that I believe is true is that without the power and hubris of celebrity, he would have had a much more difficult time escaping justice.

Why?

1) More women would have called the police and reported the rape. They would not have been afraid that his celebrity would cause them to be dismissed.

2) He would not have raped as many women as he did because so many of his victims went along with him willingly because of his celebrity.

3) The police would have pursued him far more aggressively if he didn't have the celebrity.

Bottom Line?

You have heard that in our system the rich and powerful have a large advantage in escaping punishment. I think that must also include most celebrities. I just wish I was smart enough to suggest some way to do something about that.
Fair to say, but that's not the question I was answering.
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  #58  
Old 01-27-2020, 05:56 PM
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The funniest bit on his comedy albums was about child abuse.
I admit I didn't have all of his albums, so which bit was about child abuse?

FWIW, I have only a headshaking disappointment and disgust of the man now.
  #59  
Old 01-27-2020, 05:57 PM
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Who are you arguing with here? Who (in this thread) said that Polanski is just misunderstood? Who said that Ray Lewis deserved to keep his job?

People? Sure. Some people did. Also, some people are idiots and they're not in this thread.

But they are on this board. I don't isolate threads, take them in a vacuum. Some people excusing celebrities in one thread, and others (or even the same) excoriating other celebrities in other threads bothers me. A crime is a crime, a rapist is a rapist. I wish Kobe would only be remembered as a rapist, but that ain't gonna happen.

No one said specifically "misunderstood." But he has his fans who apparently forgive what he did, with posts like this:

"Meh, whatever he did was his business and the victim, victim's friends, and victims family. I don't, or at least try not to, judge people on their actions." "It's not so much as me being okay with it, it's just that I accept it as something that happened and move on."

"He's guilty of a crime, but that doesn't mean I don't enjoy his movies."

"I won't stop liking his films. "

"And he is incredibly talented to boot."

"I draw a distinction between the person and the art, and can hate the one while savoring the other."


As for Lewis:

"...but I believe that Ray Lewis is exactly what he now seems to be, and that is a positive influence on the world, now."

"I think Ray Lewis should eventually be in the football Hall of Fame for his football career. " "I'm fine with Ray being a leader for the Ravens, even a football legend there,"

Sure, what's a little murder among friends? Not like he raped anyone.
  #60  
Old 01-27-2020, 06:06 PM
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I admit I didn't have all of his albums, so which bit was about child abuse?

FWIW, I have only a headshaking disappointment and disgust of the man now.
Itís the one about his fatherís belt. I think it was on ď To Russell, My Brother, Whom I Slept WithĒ
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  #61  
Old 01-27-2020, 06:08 PM
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Even if he wasnít a convicted rapist I donít think appreciation of his work would have out-survived the generations that would otherwise have looked back in nostalgia. None of his material ages well. The funniest bit on his comedy albums was about child abuse and Saturday Morning TV and 80s sitcoms in general age badly.
I dunno. When I became a father a few years ago, I still found his bits in "Himself" as hilarious as ever. I don't know what child abuse bits you're talking about, but I wouldn't be surprised if he did something about smacking kids in the 80s. I just don't remember it.

Really, this is why I often don't get too deep into artist biographies. Lots of artists I love who I think are absolute scumbags as humans. They still made great art, though.
  #62  
Old 01-27-2020, 06:15 PM
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Not at all.

Let him fall through the cracks into obscurity never to be brought up again outside of a few future scholars researching forgotten figures in mass culture.
In a big picture sort of way you are probably the most right. Bill Cosby won't be remembered at all. I don't thing anything he has done has any lasting historical importance that would warrant be remembered 500, 1000 years from now.

I have no idea if anyone alive today will remembered 1000 years now. It is a pretty high bar IMHO.
  #63  
Old 01-27-2020, 06:17 PM
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So, when it comes to being remembered by history, should we be attending or listening to raging anti-semite Richard Wagner's works today?
  #64  
Old 01-27-2020, 06:27 PM
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How many comedians get remembered anyway? “Rapist” will be his legacy.
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  #65  
Old 01-27-2020, 06:37 PM
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For I Spy, being a funny guy (right!), Noah (ping!), Jello pudding, Fat Albert, the Cosby Show, The Brown Hornet, The Bill Cosby Show.

You people sure are hard core judgemental.
Are you male or female, and, have YOU, or someone you care about, ever been raped? I despise the man now, although in the 60's I loved his comic work. I can recite Noah by heart.

He deserves whatever her gets, for hurting so many women.
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  #66  
Old 01-27-2020, 06:43 PM
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There was a thread here about whether one could -- or should -- separate dislike for an artist with appreciation for his work.

I don't think I weighed in with any brilliant observations on that thread -- none at all, actually, which was probably just as well. But my view is that in most cases one can, and should, because there is a dearth of talent in this world and if you ignore people's good work or cultural contributions because you hate them, then you're missing out and doing yourself a disservice. Of course there are exceptions -- I'd never own or display any of Hitler's paintings, because I would be repulsed by anything that might provide insight into the man's demented psyche. And for entirely different reasons, I can't stand watching any movie with Tom Cruise in it.

I was never particularly a big fan of the Cosby Show but his early recordings about his own childhood and the antics of the kids around him brought a lot of joy to my younger days. It's tragic that the same man was capable of such evil, but I can keep the two separate. They're just entirely different things. Would I consider granting him a lifetime achievement award for some of his early work? Yes. Would I consider granting him a pardon for his crimes? No. It's that kind of difference.
  #67  
Old 01-27-2020, 07:43 PM
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Anita Bryant was a good singer, but I'll always remember her as an overly religious homophobe nutjob.

AND I wish she (and OJ) would disappear.
I thought she did disappear. I just this minute checked Wiki to see if she was still alive. She hasn't made any public appearances of note since 1989.
  #68  
Old 01-27-2020, 07:55 PM
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A crime is a crime, a rapist is a rapist.
As Miller pointed out, the attitude you're adopting now is not at all consistent with your initial assertion that Cosby should be remembered for his comedic high points and that bringing up his criminal record is being "hard core judgemental".

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Originally Posted by Just Asking Questions View Post
But he has his fans who apparently forgive what he did, with posts like this:

"Meh, whatever he did was his business and the victim, victim's friends, and victims family. I don't, or at least try not to, judge people on their actions." "It's not so much as me being okay with it, it's just that I accept it as something that happened and move on."
I can see how you could interpret the above quotes as implying some kind of "forgiveness", but not the following:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Just Asking Questions
"He's guilty of a crime, but that doesn't mean I don't enjoy his movies."

"I won't stop liking his films. "

"And he is incredibly talented to boot."

"I draw a distinction between the person and the art, and can hate the one while savoring the other."
None of those is suggesting in any way that the artist in question should be "forgiven" for his crimes.

Last edited by Kimstu; 01-27-2020 at 07:55 PM.
  #69  
Old 01-27-2020, 08:15 PM
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I often recall jokes and stories from his albums and have a second of laughter before I remember the source was such an evil man and I stop smiling.
Such a shame that all that humor will be lost forever, but justified.
  #70  
Old 01-27-2020, 08:24 PM
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Even if he wasnít a convicted rapist I donít think appreciation of his work would have out-survived the generations that would otherwise have looked back in nostalgia. None of his material ages well. The funniest bit on his comedy albums was about child abuse and Saturday Morning TV and 80s sitcoms in general age badly.
Other than producing one, I don't remember Cosby doing any bits about Saturday morning cartoons. I do know his early records he talked about spending Saturdays at the movie house watching westerns and horror movies when he was kid but those routines were set during the 1940s (which is even more distant as a cultural point of reference). Thus, good point.
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  #71  
Old 01-27-2020, 08:29 PM
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To me Bill Cosby is the completely disgraced serial rapist that was the second funniest stand-up comic ever.
  #72  
Old 01-27-2020, 08:31 PM
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Even if he wasnít a convicted rapist I donít think appreciation of his work would have out-survived the generations that would otherwise have looked back in nostalgia. None of his material ages well. The funniest bit on his comedy albums was about child abuse and Saturday Morning TV and 80s sitcoms in general age badly.
IDK man, that Bill Cosby "Himself" special was pretty epic and covered parenting and children in a way that will always be applicable. And damn it, it was fucking funny! Hilarious!

I will never listen to or watch it again. Whenever I hear his name my mind just boings "Rape! Rape! Rape!".
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  #73  
Old 01-27-2020, 08:43 PM
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Other than producing one, I don't remember Cosby doing any bits about Saturday morning cartoons. I do know his early records he talked about spending Saturdays at the movie house watching westerns and horror movies when he was kid but those routines were set during the 1940s (which is even more distant as a cultural point of reference). Thus, good point.
I think Elmer is listing three things that don't age well:

1) Comedy routines about child abuse
2) Saturday morning cartoons
3) 80's sitcoms
  #74  
Old 01-27-2020, 08:43 PM
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How many comedians get remembered anyway? ďRapistĒ will be his legacy.
How many rapists get remembered anyway?

Who knows? Predicting the whims of cultural acceptance and shunning is a mug's game.
  #75  
Old 01-27-2020, 09:07 PM
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I think Elmer is listing three things that don't age well:

1) Comedy routines about child abuse
2) Saturday morning cartoons
3) 80's sitcoms
Yes. Thank you.
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  #76  
Old 01-27-2020, 09:14 PM
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A talented standup comic and pioneering multimedia black entertainer whose legacy is forever and irreparably tarnished by his serial sexual predation.
  #77  
Old 01-27-2020, 09:28 PM
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So, Just Asking Questions, let me get this straight: You belittled rape in this thread, just to make a point that you don't like how people are treating Kobe Bryant's rape, in a thread that isn't even about Bryant? That's definitely something... Let's just call it trolling, OK? Which is worth a Warning.
  #78  
Old 01-27-2020, 10:02 PM
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I will remember him in the same way as a bad piece of pork that caused me to get sick from food poisoning. I will remember him as someone who acted with malice aforethought.
That's a strange metaphor to choose. If I get food poisoning, I don't think it was because the food was planning to hurt me.
  #79  
Old 01-27-2020, 10:02 PM
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as the guy who likely set the world record for the most honorary degrees revoked, he has had over 50 revoked. A few schools have not revoked his honorary degrees and he did earn a PhD in education the normal way from UMass. He also had other awards revoked such as Kennedy Center Honors.
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Old 01-27-2020, 10:25 PM
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as the guy who likely set the world record for the most honorary degrees revoked, he has had over 50 revoked....
Yeah, it's pretty daunting list - look in the rightmost column: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._to_Bill_Cosby
  #81  
Old 01-27-2020, 11:58 PM
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Tthere is a dearth of talent in this world
No, there isn't. That's the lie the currently-successful people with some talent want you to think. Talent is not a scarce resource.
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Old 01-28-2020, 12:05 AM
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[Moderating]

So, Just Asking Questions, let me get this straight: You belittled rape in this thread, just to make a point that you don't like how people are treating Kobe Bryant's rape, in a thread that isn't even about Bryant? That's definitely something... Let's just call it trolling, OK? Which is worth a Warning.
You don't have it straight, at all.

I am NOT belittling rape. I don't even know how you get that. That's insulting. I am against all rapists, including Kobe, who I said seems to be getting a pass (at least at the time I wrote that - I haven't been back to that thread, for the reasons that contributed to this warning.).

It is NOT trolling. I said how I think Cosby would (OK, not 'should" I misread that) be remembered. As noted, how is Wagner remembered? Cosby had both funny stuff and did a lot of good. He also did a lot of bad.

History is a fickle mistress, and how this board is treating the death of Kobe has a bit of evidence how history could treat Cosby in the decades to come. If Kobe can be forgiven, if Polanski can be excused, then why not Cosby? I don't want that - I'm saying it could happen.

Some celebrities getting a pass while others are dumped into the trash bugs me.

I think this warning is incorrect.

Last edited by Just Asking Questions; 01-28-2020 at 12:06 AM.
  #83  
Old 01-28-2020, 02:34 AM
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That's a strange metaphor to choose. If I get food poisoning, I don't think it was because the food was planning to hurt me.
I was just trying to pick something that would cause a level of torment close to the reality of what Cosby did. I had heard that food poisoning and a broken jaw are the two most painful disease/injury human beings have experienced.

But if you have a better metaphor, I'd like to know what it is.
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Old 01-28-2020, 06:10 AM
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Itís the one about his fatherís belt. I think it was on ď To Russell, My Brother, Whom I Slept WithĒ
Note that Cosby said, "We had never seen the belt, but we had heard about it. The belt was nine feet long, eight feet wide, and it had hooks on it, and it would rip the meat off your body if it ever hit you." Which indicates that his father had never employed it, but was bluffing to get their attention.
  #85  
Old 01-28-2020, 09:18 AM
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No, there isn't. That's the lie the currently-successful people with some talent want you to think. Talent is not a scarce resource.
Yes, one of my memes is "Talent is vastly over-rated." Everyone has several talents that could had made them famous, if they'd had the breaks and tenacity of the people that make it.

One question that hasn't been brought up: How IS Michael Jackson remembered? As a talented pop singer and dancer, a pedophile or someone who stupidly died too young of a drug overdose?
  #86  
Old 01-28-2020, 10:12 AM
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Yes, one of my memes is "Talent is vastly over-rated." Everyone has several talents that could had made them famous, if they'd had the breaks and tenacity of the people that make it.

One question that hasn't been brought up: How IS Michael Jackson remembered? As a talented pop singer and dancer, a pedophile or someone who stupidly died too young of a drug overdose?
I remember Jackson mostly as a thoroughly messed up pedophile. But I never liked his music anyway. I dislike the worship that he got despite being a pedophile.

Cosby should be remembered first as a serial rapist and second for being a great comic and third as a ground breaking television star. (I like I Spy, didn't like the Cosby Show but both were groundbreaking)
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Old 01-28-2020, 10:18 AM
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Right. You have a right to your own opinions, but not your own facts. Cosby is in jail for rape. You can believe he's innocent, but you cannot deny he was found guilty. And I believe OJ Simpson is a double murderer who got off in the criminal trial but was found GUILTY in the civil trial.

ETA: I am a huge Andrew Lloyd Webber fan. You can tell me his songs are horrible, but you cannot deny he's a phenomenally successful theatre song writer.

Last edited by Annie-Xmas; 01-28-2020 at 10:20 AM.
  #88  
Old 01-28-2020, 10:40 AM
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You don't have it straight, at all.

I am NOT belittling rape. I don't even know how you get that. That's insulting.
Maybe you should re-consider your method of communicating your ideas. Looking back through your posts, it's not at all clear what you're trying to say.

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But they are on this board. I don't isolate threads, take them in a vacuum. Some people excusing celebrities in one thread, and others (or even the same) excoriating other celebrities in other threads bothers me.
We're actually individual people here. Putting your thoughts in these terms is confusing when we as individuals can't recall having done any of these things. Maybe you could have been more explicit from the beginning.

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But he has his fans who apparently forgive what he did, with posts like this:
Are these actually quotes from threads on this board? If so, links would have been nice. Actually, knowing the sources of these quotes would be useful.
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Last edited by Acsenray; 01-28-2020 at 10:40 AM.
  #89  
Old 01-28-2020, 12:54 PM
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I was just trying to pick something that would cause a level of torment close to the reality of what Cosby did. I had heard that food poisoning and a broken jaw are the two most painful disease/injury human beings have experienced.

But if you have a better metaphor, I'd like to know what it is.
You could, I dunno, say that what Cosby did was rape.
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Old 01-28-2020, 04:54 PM
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Just Asking Questions, if you wish to dispute your warning in public, the place for that is ATMB, not here.
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Old 01-28-2020, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by elbows View Post
Predatory serial rapist abusing icon level, celebrity and influence to evade detection for decades.
All while taking the moral high ground over other people, especially and openly with young black comedians like Eddie Murphy and others. Eddie Murphy, at least to me, was one of the few people that never bowed to Bill Cosby and saw through his whole persona.

It's incredible that it took that routine from Hannibal Buress(another comedian he criticized) to openly discuss the widely known "open secret" that Bill Cosby had a history of abuse.

The ripple effect of his abuse goes on and on. Geoffrey Owens, who played Alvin on the Cosby Show, had lived off the residuals from the Cosby Show while he looked for other acting jobs. The show is not as widely syndicated as it was and he lost a ton of very important income.

I could never watch a Cosby comedy act again and my kids are not growing up watching the Cosby Show.
  #92  
Old 01-29-2020, 08:05 AM
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The face of hypocrisy.
  #93  
Old 01-29-2020, 11:19 AM
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In addition to the two main viewpoints presented above (groundbreaking comedian and disgusting serial rapist) I would have to add: the guy who punched out Tommy Smothers in the Playboy Mansion.
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  #94  
Old 01-29-2020, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by CaptMurdock View Post
In addition to the two main viewpoints presented above (groundbreaking comedian and disgusting serial rapist) I would have to add: the guy who punched out Tommy Smothers in the Playboy Mansion.
OK, please expand, this is new to me.
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Old 01-29-2020, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Just Asking Questions View Post
Oh, well, that's OK I guess. Only ONE. I'm sure the victim feels much better. He only raped one woman. Easy to forgive.
Nobody is saying the one rape is okay. It's obviously not. But it was asked (by you or someone else, I'm not sure) why people aren't commenting so much on Kobe's actions, yet they are on Cosby's. It's because Cosby was more universally known, had more victims, and was actually convicted. That does not make what Kobe did okay. But one of those instances is going to be FAR more prevalent to most people, and it's really isn't a mystery as to why.
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Old 01-29-2020, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by What Exit? View Post
OK, please expand, this is new to me.
They had very different political views. From here:

Quote:
In October of 1976, Cosby and Smothers were attending the same party at The Playboy Mansion. Hoping to ease some of the tension, Tom congratulated Bill on his latest television series. What Smothers did not realize was that the show in question had been cancelled the day before. "I liked your show," said Tom, "it was a really good effort." Cosby didn't respond. "He just looked at me [as if to say] 'Fuck you,' and I said, ' Well, Fuck you.' ... and walked away. I'd been getting this kind of thing from him for a long time. It started when he was hosting The Tonight Show. He had this kind of dismissive way of introducing people ... and I nailed him - you know, comedic oneupmanship---and I remember he said, 'Maybe sometime I'll knock you upside the head one of these days,' and I said, 'Yeah, go ahead and try.' A couple months later ... boom ... there it was. I should never have turned my back on him. He didn't have the balls to do it when I was looking. He slipped behind Hefner and sucker-punched me. He hit me right in the head with his fist - knocked me down ... and I was down there a minute or two and he was standing over me screaming at me, 'C'mon, I'll kick your ass,' stuff like that. I've never seen him since then. I always thought, maybe if he turns around sometime I might give him a shot."
  #97  
Old 01-29-2020, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Annie-Xmas View Post
And I believe OJ Simpson is a double murderer who got off in the criminal trial but was found GUILTY in the civil trial.
He was found liable in the civil trial, not guilty.
  #98  
Old 01-29-2020, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Cardigan View Post
Bill Cosby has not died, but another recent celebrity death brought to mind the fact that Bill Cosby is 82 years old and may not be with us for many more years.

How should he be remembered when he dies?
How about as a malevolent, high-functioning, psychopathic rapist who worked in the entertainment industry?
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Old 01-29-2020, 04:38 PM
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So, when it comes to being remembered by history, should we be attending or listening to raging anti-semite Richard Wagner's works today?
You probably don't want to look too closely at any artist/entertainer you enjoy. Most will disappoint and many may cause disgust. How they are evaluated in such bad light is a matter of proportion. Yes, Wagner was a raging anti-Semite; however, as far as I know he did not physically abuse any Jews. If Cosby was just a sexist heel, his comedy would probably, still, eclipse his faults. Cosby's problems appear to run far deeper than un-checked lust or a misogynistic streak. He seems to relish controlling, abusing and humiliating vulnerable women who trust him enough to come in close orbit. That, I feel, overshadows all of his other accomplishments.
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Old 01-30-2020, 10:50 PM
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There was more than one Bill Cosby. Sure, there was comedian Cosby and rapey Cosby, but there was also bathtub Cosby, curiosity Cosby, data analysis Cosby, and the list goes on...
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