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  #151  
Old 11-06-2014, 12:52 PM
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Georgia Mother Catches Cop Next Door Molesting Her 15- Year- Old Son (VIDEO)

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Upon returning home, the woman took her son’s cell phone. It was then that she found a series of explicit text messages and photos sent from the officer’s phone, which she describes as ‘just disgusting’. CBS 46 confirms that the text messages and photos exist, but reports the pictures and texts are too graphic to show on camera.
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While the woman has filed a complaint with the police department, she obviously has serious concerns about doing so. Smyrna police say that an internal investigation is being conducted into the officer’s behavior. Authorities also say that the child molestation charges are being handled by the Cobb County Crimes Against Children Unit. However, CBS 46 reports that investigators who are supposed to be working on the case have not even looked at the text messages or photos on the boy’s phone.
  #152  
Old 11-06-2014, 01:03 PM
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Frank Serpico thinks the police are still out of control


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Police make up a peculiar subculture in society. More often than not they have their own moral code of behavior, an “us against them” attitude, enforced by a Blue Wall of Silence. It’s their version of the Mafia’s omerta. Speak out, and you’re no longer “one of us.” You’re one of “them.” And as James Fyfe, a nationally recognized expert on the use of force, wrote in his 1993 book about this issue, Above The Law, officers who break the code sometimes won’t be helped in emergency situations, as I wasn’t.
  #153  
Old 11-09-2014, 11:11 AM
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Another one of America's finest reaching out and making connections with the local community.
  #154  
Old 11-09-2014, 11:54 AM
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And yet some people can't understand why people mistrust the cops.
  #155  
Old 11-10-2014, 12:34 AM
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Another one of America's finest reaching out and making connections with the local community.
And here's the cop in question, summing up the way so many police apparently feel about their abuse of authority, and about being held accountable for it:
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Asked if he would have handled the matter the same way again, Glans said he would, but not if he knew it was being filmed. He acknowledged that he did not know the incident was being videotaped.

"I was concerned. It was a public safety issue," the sergeant said. "If I had to do it all over again ... I'd probably do the same thing. If I knew the camera was there, no, because it does look bad."
I would abuse my authority and violate the constitution again, although not if i knew i was being filmed. Nice!

Last edited by mhendo; 11-10-2014 at 12:35 AM.
  #156  
Old 11-11-2014, 01:14 AM
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I honestly don't know what to think about that video.

It seems like the officer was investigating some sort of crime, and that furthermore there was a weapon visible in the vehicle. So he wanted to search it. Without going through the hassle of getting a warrant.

So he attempts to intimidate the punk (who might be a fine citizen for all I know). He slaps him once. But he doesn't lose his cool: he doesn't go ballistic. It appears to me that he was doing things by the unwritten book as it were, standard unofficial procedure. I'm guessing that behavior wasn't out of the ordinary and reflects longstanding suburban cop behavioral norms.


Today, smartphones have video cameras. If we force cops to do things by the book -the written book that is- will there be unintended consequences? That gives me some pause. I don't want to live in Orwell's 1984, but I don't want Mad Max either.
  #157  
Old 11-11-2014, 01:36 AM
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I honestly don't know what to think about that video.

It seems like the officer was investigating some sort of crime, and that furthermore there was a weapon visible in the vehicle. So he wanted to search it. Without going through the hassle of getting a warrant.

So he attempts to intimidate the punk (who might be a fine citizen for all I know). He slaps him once. But he doesn't lose his cool: he doesn't go ballistic. It appears to me that he was doing things by the unwritten book as it were, standard unofficial procedure. I'm guessing that behavior wasn't out of the ordinary and reflects longstanding suburban cop behavioral norms.


Today, smartphones have video cameras. If we force cops to do things by the book -the written book that is- will there be unintended consequences? That gives me some pause. I don't want to live in Orwell's 1984, but I don't want Mad Max either.
My question to you is very simple: if he really felt like these young men might be the people involved in the crime, what did he possibly have to lose by following the law and getting a warrant?

As for the alleged crime that he was investigating, according to this news story, the officers were investigating "a call of suspicious people parking at another business and entering woods on Route 236 near the Wal-Mart." Sounds like a pretty dangerous situation. Parking and entering woods! What next? Standing around and chatting?

It's pretty damn unfortunate that a cop intimidating a citizen into giving up his constitutional rights, physically assaulting him, and following it up with threats of further violence, apparently does not qualify as "losing his cool" in your world, and can be shrugged off as "standard unofficial procedure." Basically, the only thing in your post that i agree with is your observation that this probably "reflects longstanding suburban cop behavioral norms." It's just that i see this as part of the problem, rather than as something that might need to be preserved due to a fear of nebulous, vaguely-defined "unintended consequences."

I am, however, happy to note that, according to the story linked above, the cop in question has resigned from his position, and was today:
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arraigned in Halfmoon Town Court on Monday afternoon on one count of official misconduct, a misdemeanor, and second-degree harassment, a violation. The charges state that while on-duty and in uniform Glans "did knowingly commit unauthorized physical acts in seeking to secure and expedite the search of a vehicle with an intent to benefit himself," according to court records. The harassment charge says Glans slapped Fitch "in the back of the head with an open hand."
  #158  
Old 11-11-2014, 05:50 PM
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My question to you is very simple: if he really felt like these young men might be the people involved in the crime, what did he possibly have to lose by following the law and getting a warrant?
These things take time and municipal funds. Also, if the crime is serious as I assume it is...
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As for the alleged crime that he was investigating, according to this news story, the officers were investigating "a call of suspicious people parking at another business and entering woods on Route 236 near the Wal-Mart." Sounds like a pretty dangerous situation. Parking and entering woods! What next? Standing around and chatting?
LOL. Well there goes my theory. At worst they were smoking pot. So we're discussing a picayune drug bust (which didn't happen).
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It's pretty damn unfortunate that a cop intimidating a citizen into giving up his constitutional rights, physically assaulting him, and following it up with threats of further violence, apparently does not qualify as "losing his cool" in your world, and can be shrugged off as "standard unofficial procedure."
Losing your cool is when a cop leaves visible damage on the suspect. That was controlled (and illegal) violence. SOP.
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Basically, the only thing in your post that i agree with is your observation that this probably "reflects longstanding suburban cop behavioral norms." It's just that i see this as part of the problem, rather than as something that might need to be preserved due to a fear of nebulous, vaguely-defined "unintended consequences."
It's only nebulous because I don't know about cop-work. Nor do TV watchers know about it. What I'm saying is that there are all manner of technically illegal police procedures that are routinely used and before we declare nuclear war on them, I'd like to see the situation gamed out. I don't have the knowledge to do that though. Your stepdad or pkbites might have some insight. Presumably the matter could be studied.


ETA: I suppose they could have been running a stolen goods ring.

Last edited by Measure for Measure; 11-11-2014 at 05:53 PM.
  #159  
Old 11-11-2014, 06:19 PM
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These things take time and municipal funds.
You know what else takes time and municipal funds? Lawsuits over constitutional violations.
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Old 11-11-2014, 07:03 PM
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You know what else takes time and municipal funds? Lawsuits over constitutional violations.
Much less of a problem when compact video cameras aren't routinely carried by the citizenry.

I think reforms are inevitable, though the process will drag out. I should like to know the consequences of various proposed shifts in standard de facto police procedures.
  #161  
Old 11-11-2014, 07:11 PM
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Much less of a problem when compact video cameras aren't routinely carried by the citizenry.
Or by the police themselves, as is happening in some jurisdictions now, including right here in San Diego.

I don't know if i'm interpreting your position accurately, but you seem to be saying that it's OK as long as the cops can get away with it. Your position seems to be that, as long as cops check for the presence of cameras in order to make sure that they don't leave themselves and their towns open to lawsuits, there is no real problem with them circumventing constitutional protections as long as they don't go beyond what you consider to be a reasonable level of violence and rights violations.

Is that about right?
  #162  
Old 11-11-2014, 07:40 PM
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positive and normative


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I don't know if i'm interpreting your position accurately, but you seem to be saying that it's OK as long as the cops can get away with it. Your position seems to be that, as long as cops check for the presence of cameras in order to make sure that they don't leave themselves and their towns open to lawsuits, there is no real problem with them circumventing constitutional protections as long as they don't go beyond what you consider to be a reasonable level of violence and rights violations.

Is that about right?
No, but I can see how you formed that assessment.


As long as the cops can get away with it, the practice will be widespread. Sort of like the non-cop world, really.

I'm hypothesizing that this sort of extra-legal practice has occurred routinely in the US for as long as there have been cops. It's been limited though by the fact that bodily harm can lead to investigation. But a slap in the face or a punch to the stomach? No, probably not. Hell, if the perp receives a black eye, it can be explained away with a charge of resisting arrest. I think our friend Officer Glans made that pretty clear. Thank you officer.

So we have a settled institution, a way of doing things that has persisted for over a dozen decades. Camera phones make changes inevitable. But before we topple the apple-cart I'd like to know a little more about what will replace it, and the consequences thereof. It used to be said the both liberals and conservatives support change: it's just that conservatives like to dot the i's, cross the t's, and act with deliberation. I'm a conservative in that sense.


I speculate the eventual resolution will involve embracing technology and mounting cams on cops and dashboards. Plus some erosion of privacy: it's not mentioned in the constitution you know. At any rate, I'd like to see a few of these scenarios gamed out by qualified experts.
  #163  
Old 11-11-2014, 08:30 PM
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It used to be said the both liberals and conservatives support change: it's just that conservatives like to dot the i's, cross the t's, and act with deliberation. I'm a conservative in that sense.
I was under the impression that not violating the constitutional rights of citizens was already supposed to be part of the dotted i's and crossed t's of our law enforcement system.

Why should you require any deliberation or proof of efficacy in order to support what should have been standard practice all along? You say that the current system has been in place for decades, and that you'd like to know a little more about "what will replace it." Well, what will replace it, ideally, is a system where both police and citizens have to obey the law, and are held accountable if they don't. I'm not sure why that requires any extensive investigation, or even much deliberation, for that matter.
  #164  
Old 11-11-2014, 10:04 PM
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It's not that hard. Cops chase thugs and occasionally catch them. Cops use a number of tried and tested techniques, some of them illegal. Presumably effective measures to ban such techniques will have consequences, among them reduced ability to catch thugs.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't reform these 100+ year police habits and traditions. It means we should look before we leap.


Interestingly, we haven't learned the names of the cops who accompanied former Officer Glans during his encounter with the serial woods visitors. Apparently there were 2 deputies one of whom, you know, searched the car. Without a warrant or permission of its owner. No worries though: the investigation is allegedly continuing.

Also, Glans has a part time job with the South Glens Falls PD. They have not commented on his employment status.

Last edited by Measure for Measure; 11-11-2014 at 10:05 PM.
  #165  
Old 11-11-2014, 10:17 PM
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Losing your cool is when a cop leaves visible damage on the suspect.
That's just fucking crazy, and is a completely unacceptable standard.

On the one hand, these policing controversy threads are making me sad. On the other, it's clear that we need to have a lot more discussion in order to educate people and change what people will accept.

My only guess is that right now, we're a big fucking panicky nation, and have come to tolerate the loss of liberties in favor of security at pretty much every level and in every context.
  #166  
Old 11-12-2014, 02:30 AM
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That's just fucking crazy, and is a completely unacceptable standard.
It's not a standard: it's a description. US hockey players don't lose their cool during most games either, though some get into "fights". In leagues where such nonsense is penalized, it disappears.
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On the one hand, these policing controversy threads are making me sad. On the other, it's clear that we need to have a lot more discussion in order to educate people and change what people will accept.

My only guess is that right now, we're a big fucking panicky nation, and have come to tolerate the loss of liberties in favor of security at pretty much every level and in every context.
Again, I'm not describing anything new as I see it. Indeed, I suspect the cops were more aggressive during the 1800s and 1930s, judging from worker strike literature. The trend has been for greater police professionalism, not less. See: Serpico.


I tried poking around for info on the net: I found a mediocre article entitled, "Law Enforcement and the Rule of Law: Is there A Tradeoff?" by David H. Bayley of the State University of New York at Albany. Anyway, the DoJ apparently surveyed a number of officers during the 1990s asking them whether, “always following the rules is not compatible with getting the job done”, 43% agreed with that statement. And I say a few of the ones who didn't may have been lying: if you have experience lying in court I don't know why you'd feel like you should be candid with a telephone interviewer.

The author was pro-rule of law, but he didn't make any serious effort to distinguish between different illegal police practices.
  #167  
Old 11-12-2014, 06:02 AM
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At any rate, I'd like to see a few of these scenarios gamed out by qualified experts.
Surely research has produced surprises in the past, but in this case I'm just not seeing it. How is it at all plausible that heightened scrutiny of police actions for civil rights abuses will have a significant effect on their ability to catch bad guys etc. Maybe there will be cases here and there, but what systematic and large-enough-to-worry-about problem could it cause?
  #168  
Old 11-12-2014, 07:35 AM
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The trend has been for greater police professionalism, not less. See: Serpico.
Not according to Serpico. Your opinions on this subject are fascinating, to say the least.
  #169  
Old 11-12-2014, 09:11 AM
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So we have a settled institution, a way of doing things that has persisted for over a dozen decades. Camera phones make changes inevitable. But before we topple the apple-cart I'd like to know a little more about what will replace it, and the consequences thereof.
I'd like to go back to this statement of your thesis, MfM, if you don't mind the interjection.

Here's the thing about settled institutional behaviors; they don't normally exist singly. In other words, within long established trades or occupations, there are coexisting and often competing behaviors among the practitioners.

The rough treatment technique employed by Officer Glans* is surely quite popular. Intimidation can be an effortlessly rote procedure as it comes naturally to certain types of individuals, it can be moderated to suit the officer's sense of the situation, it's historically had plausible deniability (less and less with the advent of the camera/video phone), and it requires little or no creativity.

But even in the 1880's through 1930's, there have been cops who did their jobs effectively and commendably, apprehending criminals and preventing illegalities without ever behaving like assholes. Surely there have been at least appreciable percentages of these better cops through every era of uniformed police, in every jurisdiction which has had them. Hell, I'm sure there were Roman soldiers in occupied lands with kinder and more creative approaches than their fellows.

So I don't really buy 'unintended consequences' as an important concern regarding efforts to curb civil rights violations.



*I'm sure I'm not the first to note this, but "Glans" just seems to be the perfect name for the dickhead in the story...
  #170  
Old 11-12-2014, 11:16 AM
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And another: cops in Vancouver, Washington shot the unarmed man that called 911 to report a suspicious car. When they arrived on the scene, they saw a man matching the description of a suspect in a shooting earlier. Since you can never be too careful, they figured it was safer to just shoot the guy first and worry about positive identification and lack of a weapon later.

http://www.oregonlive.com/clark-coun..._911_call.html
  #171  
Old 11-12-2014, 12:44 PM
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And another: cops in Vancouver, Washington shot the unarmed man that called 911 to report a suspicious car. When they arrived on the scene, they saw a man matching the description of a suspect in a shooting earlier. Since you can never be too careful, they figured it was safer to just shoot the guy first and worry about positive identification and lack of a weapon later.

http://www.oregonlive.com/clark-coun..._911_call.html
This seems totally likely and not just something the cops are saying to protect themselves:
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The man requested his identity not be released by police and the Vancouver agency plans to "honor his request for as long as we can," Kapp said. She said she did not know why the man requested police not release his identity.
  #172  
Old 11-12-2014, 01:00 PM
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I can understand the guy wanting to stay anonymous. There are plenty of people ready to blindly defend the cops, and that defense sometimes takes the form of harassing the victim.
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...the Vancouver agency plans to "honor his request for as long as we can."
Or at least until revealing his identity becomes beneficial to the agency.
  #173  
Old 11-12-2014, 03:29 PM
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Not according to Serpico. Your opinions on this subject are fascinating, to say the least.
But I agree with Serpico. The police are still out of control. But graft among NYC cops is no longer considered acceptable practice.


xenophon41: Nice post, nice points. Judging from my survey though, we have a background rate of bad behavior of at least 50% -- and presumably the rule breakers are concentrated in certain jurisdictions. Here's my problem: you offered no substantiation, probably because you don't have any reports to back up your statements. Look: I'm guessing you are correct. But in my mind this just underlines the necessity of research on the topic, looking before leaping. (Though honestly, the US isn't going to do any leaping. They will just grind through lawsuits.)


Frylock: That's a fair question, and I'll try to think about it further. Basically though my answer is going to be, it depends upon the specific police practice.
  #174  
Old 11-12-2014, 05:04 PM
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But in my mind this just underlines the necessity of research on the topic, looking before leaping. (Though honestly, the US isn't going to do any leaping. They will just grind through lawsuits.)
Research on the numbers might be helpful just to establish some sort of baseline, but I can't help thinking any published results would be doomed to vicious partisan deconstruction and spin. Perhaps approaching the question by analyzing the different policing approaches for strengths, weaknesses and legalities, and then taking a few passes at modelling the best practices which adhere to ethical and legal expectations?

All of which come to think of it has been under constant review by professional law enforcement entities since they've existed, and been the subject of more than a little thought experimentation in American literature since that has existed. So I guess I'm saying I don't know what specific new research really needs to be done.

And really, if police could magically no longer get away with civil rights violations at any significant level, I'm having a hard time believing they couldn't find effective replacement techniques for any shakedowns, beatdowns and unreasonable searches & seizures we hypothesize they're performing now.

In any case, as you said before, doesn't seem that society will have the luxury of "looking before leaping" as technology might have made that jump for us.
  #175  
Old 11-13-2014, 03:48 AM
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I'm surprised that I'm the first to post this, but apparently the New Orleans detectives responsible for investigating sexual assault, didn't conduct any follow up investigation for 86% of the cases reported to them.
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Akron Davis was assigned 13 cases of potential sexual/physical abuse involving children in which the juvenile victims potentially were still in the same home where the alleged abuse occurred. Of those 13, 11 lacked a supplemental report. Cases in which infants were hospitalized for skull fractures, a toddler tested positive for a sexually transmitted disease and a young child complained of sexual abuse at the hands of a registered sex offender were among those identified by the New Orleans Inspector General's office as failing to get proper investigations.
http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/...elated_stories
  #176  
Old 11-15-2014, 12:21 AM
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I'd like to delineate various sorts of wrongdoing by law enforcement.

1. Wrongdoing that is illegal and purely self interested, eg graft.

2. Systemic and institutional wrongdoing that may or may not be legal. eg Speed traps. eg Excessive court fees combined with excessive warrants issued for minor offenses. Systemic and predatory behavior. eg Many years ago Jim Crow.

3. Idiosyncratic wrongdoing by a cop who is out of uniform.

4. Idiosyncratic wrongdoing by a cop misusing his authority. Much like #1.

5. SIOP: Standard Illegal Operating Procedure.

I'm advocating a carve-out for number 5. Some of those practices should be curbed: maybe all should be. But when police practice goes back 100 years, I'm leary of upturning apple carts without reflection.


Let's work through one example.

If you resist arrest in NYC, you get pummeled. The idea is that a cop on the beat represents all cops, and they don't want to undermine each other's collective authority. They don't want to play cat and mouse. They want to convey the idea that resisting arrest will bring swift and certain punishment. That said, such punishment shouldn't be excessive: if a cop punches a perp more than once, the other cops should pull him back. That's part of the training.

Ok, let's say somebody flees from the cops for 10 minutes, then at the end of the chase they just escort him to the nearest police station. Would that be so bad?

A: I have no idea. Seriously. I also don't know what happens when the underworld loses respect for the local constabulary. But this must have happened somewhere. So there should be a way of researching this.
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Originally Posted by xenophon41 View Post
Research on the numbers might be helpful just to establish some sort of baseline, but I can't help thinking any published results would be doomed to vicious partisan deconstruction and spin. Perhaps approaching the question by analyzing the different policing approaches for strengths, weaknesses and legalities, and then taking a few passes at modelling the best practices which adhere to ethical and legal expectations?
Most policy decisions are below the radar of the mass media, whether at the national or local level. Same for most research. True, the big decisions are subject to coverage. But there are thousands of smaller ones that receive little attention.

Also, it would be tricky for even a wacko pundit to make the sort of argument I'm making. More likely, they would just deny the reality underlying 150 years of policing.
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All of which come to think of it has been under constant review by professional law enforcement entities since they've existed, and been the subject of more than a little thought experimentation in American literature since that has existed. So I guess I'm saying I don't know what specific new research really needs to be done.
Oh sure. For all I know the research could be a literature review. Or maybe a survey of cops. Or even an expert panel of detectives.
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And really, if police could magically no longer get away with civil rights violations at any significant level, I'm having a hard time believing they couldn't find effective replacement techniques for any shakedowns, beatdowns and unreasonable searches & seizures we hypothesize they're performing now.
Probably. Methinks it's better to game these things out in advance though.



Another example might be the routine search of automobiles without warrants. What if this practice was curbed?

This is something that could be figured out. Compare the total numbers of autos searched with and without warrants. Take the autos searched without warrants and calculate
a) the percentage of times an arrest occurred,
and
b) a breakdown of those arrests by seriousness. In other words if they all involve small quantities of drugs... well then we have the basis for some cost/benefit analysis.

Giving up lots of small drug busts for even heroin seems like a reasonable price for buttressing the 4th amendment. But amounts of 1 kilo or more might give me pause.

Last edited by Measure for Measure; 11-15-2014 at 12:25 AM.
  #177  
Old 11-15-2014, 01:20 AM
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You are a scary person.
  #178  
Old 11-15-2014, 02:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Measure for Measure View Post
I'd like to delineate various sorts of wrongdoing by law enforcement.

1. Wrongdoing that is illegal and purely self interested, eg graft.

2. Systemic and institutional wrongdoing that may or may not be legal. eg Speed traps. eg Excessive court fees combined with excessive warrants issued for minor offenses. Systemic and predatory behavior. eg Many years ago Jim Crow.

3. Idiosyncratic wrongdoing by a cop who is out of uniform.

4. Idiosyncratic wrongdoing by a cop misusing his authority. Much like #1.

5. SIOP: Standard Illegal Operating Procedure.

I'm advocating a carve-out for number 5. Some of those practices should be curbed: maybe all should be. But when police practice goes back 100 years, I'm leary of upturning apple carts without reflection.


Let's work through one example.

If you resist arrest in NYC, you get pummeled. The idea is that a cop on the beat represents all cops, and they don't want to undermine each other's collective authority. They don't want to play cat and mouse. They want to convey the idea that resisting arrest will bring swift and certain punishment. That said, such punishment shouldn't be excessive: if a cop punches a perp more than once, the other cops should pull him back. That's part of the training.

Ok, let's say somebody flees from the cops for 10 minutes, then at the end of the chase they just escort him to the nearest police station. Would that be so bad?

A: I have no idea. Seriously. I also don't know what happens when the underworld loses respect for the local constabulary. But this must have happened somewhere. So there should be a way of researching this. Most policy decisions are below the radar of the mass media, whether at the national or local level. Same for most research. True, the big decisions are subject to coverage. But there are thousands of smaller ones that receive little attention.

Also, it would be tricky for even a wacko pundit to make the sort of argument I'm making. More likely, they would just deny the reality underlying 150 years of policing.
Oh sure. For all I know the research could be a literature review. Or maybe a survey of cops. Or even an expert panel of detectives. Probably. Methinks it's better to game these things out in advance though.



Another example might be the routine search of automobiles without warrants. What if this practice was curbed?

This is something that could be figured out. Compare the total numbers of autos searched with and without warrants. Take the autos searched without warrants and calculate
a) the percentage of times an arrest occurred,
and
b) a breakdown of those arrests by seriousness. In other words if they all involve small quantities of drugs... well then we have the basis for some cost/benefit analysis.

Giving up lots of small drug busts for even heroin seems like a reasonable price for buttressing the 4th amendment. But amounts of 1 kilo or more might give me pause.
This would fit quite nicely in either the "Stupid Republican Idea of the Day" or "Stupid Liberal Idea of the Day" threads depending upon who it was attributed to.

Seriously, this is one of the most fucked up things I've ever seen posted.
  #179  
Old 11-15-2014, 11:17 PM
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Ookay. But -again- I'm discussing police practices that have been in place in the US for decades. I'm saying that the consequences of reversing them can be studied and the problems anticipated.

Not sure what to say to mhendo and zoid, except to recommend that they join the ACLU. I've been a member for years notwithstanding my level of blase. The Rodney King and Ferguson cases outraged me. Longstanding police practices that I am insufficiently informed about do not, at least until I can acquire a better information base.
  #180  
Old 11-15-2014, 11:45 PM
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How do you know we're not in the ACLU and that's exactly why we find your ideas offensive?
  #181  
Old 11-15-2014, 11:51 PM
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Ookay. But -again- I'm discussing police practices that have been in place in the US for decades. I'm saying that the consequences of reversing them can be studied and the problems anticipated.
Your first post in this thread of conversation was pretty much, "Yeah, he committed assault and battery, but he's a cop, so it's ok." Here's a thought: it's not okay for the police to break the laws they are charged with enforcing. At all. Ever. We don't need a fucking study.
  #182  
Old 11-16-2014, 12:34 AM
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Your first post in this thread of conversation was pretty much, "Yeah, he committed assault and battery, but he's a cop, so it's ok."
Cite? Quote? Thanks for sharing your feelings, but I prefer to address facts.
Quote:
Here's a thought: it's not okay for the police to break the laws they are charged with enforcing. At all. Ever. We don't need a fucking study.
Actions have consequences. It's better to take a guess at those consequences before spouting off your confessed uninformed opinion. For example, I was not aware that the police made a habit of enforcing 4th amendment search and seizure laws on others.
  #183  
Old 11-16-2014, 12:55 AM
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Cite? Quote? Thanks for sharing your feelings, but I prefer to address facts.
Ok, sure. I thought it was posted recently enough not to warrant citing, but at your request:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Measure for Measure View Post
So he attempts to intimidate the punk (who might be a fine citizen for all I know). He slaps him once.
You do know it's illegal to go around slapping people, right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Measure for Measure
Actions have consequences. It's better to take a guess at those consequences before spouting off your confessed uninformed opinion.
First, I'm a little confused: what opinion did I confess was uninformed? Second, if you want to change the law to allow law enforcement personnel to strike non-resisting subjects, go for it. But do that first, before you excuse them for it. Until then, I'll stick to my first point: the police are just as subject to the law as the rest of us.
  #184  
Old 11-16-2014, 01:48 AM
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Ok, sure. I thought it was posted recently enough not to warrant citing, but at your request:

You do know it's illegal to go around slapping people, right?
Thank you for providing an accurate quote of an accurate statement. You are indeed correct that slapping people is illegal: it's called assault and battery.

I did not claim otherwise.

So tell me Kyrie, where did I say, "...but he's a cop, so it's ok."? I corrected that misimpression upthread.
Quote:
First, I'm a little confused: what opinion did I confess was uninformed?
Your claim about my post was uninformed. Your statement about no need for studies implies to me that you have no familiarity or interest in them. Am I wrong?

Last edited by Measure for Measure; 11-16-2014 at 01:50 AM.
  #185  
Old 11-16-2014, 01:55 AM
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How do you know we're not in the ACLU and that's exactly why we find your ideas offensive?
I have no idea. If you are a member (and there are many), congratulations I guess.

You still haven't addressed the substance of my argument, which advocates anticipating that which can be anticipated. Frylock and others seemed to want me to elaborate on what sorts of things could be researched. I provided an answer upthread.
  #186  
Old 11-16-2014, 02:14 AM
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I corrected that misimpression upthread.
I might be alone in this, but I'm not sure that you really did. My current impression is that you are arguing that the police ought to be allowed to continue historical practices that you acknowledge are illegal until the result of changing those practices can be studied. Is this an accurate summary of your position? If not, we might be fussing over nothing.
  #187  
Old 11-16-2014, 03:13 AM
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I might be alone in this, but I'm not sure that you really did. My current impression is that you are arguing that the police ought to be allowed to continue historical practices that you acknowledge are illegal until the result of changing those practices can be studied. Is this an accurate summary of your position? If not, we might be fussing over nothing.
Hm, ok that's a reasonable interpretation, but actually no.

In practice this is something that will grind its way through the courts. The police will be hauled up for crimes committed while on videotape, and plead not guilty on the basis of imagined furtive movements or other aspects not showing up clearly on tape. Juries will try to work out whether the prosecutor's case clears the reasonable doubt bar. The underlying and longstanding pattern of police practice will be muddied.

I say a research program will help clarify matters. Perhaps it would point a way towards procedures that prevent the streets from becoming a cop shooting gallery (or rather show that such fears are overblown). Perhaps it would monetize the sort of delays inherent with getting a warrant for searches during routine traffic stops.

Or maybe it would just provide me with some basis for mouthing off on the internet. I'm simply reluctant to comment on fourth amendment automotive issues without a better grasp on the topic. Sure a lot of this stuff is blatantly unconstitutional. But I've followed human rights abuses for long enough to be a little jaded about police bullying and slaps to the face. This kid lost his teeth. I once witnessed a police beating in the Czech Republic train station: the cops appeared bored.


TLDR: In practice research would occur simultaneously with a drawn out process encompassing many court cases. Heck, this isn't rocket science: it might involve merely digging into existing statistics or arranging a few candid and anonymous interviews with former cops. The NYT does a number of investigations of this scope each month. One might even look into this for the sake of history.


Post 10,000. Not my greatest thread.
  #188  
Old 11-16-2014, 03:18 AM
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So just to be clear, you're saying we need to do research before we make any conclusions about cops slapping people in the face?
  #189  
Old 11-21-2014, 01:08 PM
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A rather graphic beating was captured, of an NYPD officer who hit a young guy so hard he dropped his nightstick. Hard to watch -- the guy was stumbling with blood streaming down his face. According to the article, the young guy jumped a turnstile at the subway.
  #190  
Old 11-21-2014, 01:24 PM
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It looks like he was seriously resisting arrest, even after a hard hit to the head, he is fighting the cop. Why no taser?
  #191  
Old 11-21-2014, 01:26 PM
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I grew up with cops beating people, shoving them to the ground, hitting them with sticks, it was such a common occurrence nobody much reacted. During protests against the War (Nam) cops would beat people so bad they crippled them. The courts wouldn't do shit about it either.
  #192  
Old 11-21-2014, 01:29 PM
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I grew up with cops beating people, shoving them to the ground, hitting them with sticks, it was such a common occurrence nobody much reacted. During protests against the War (Nam) cops would beat people so bad they crippled them. The courts wouldn't do shit about it either.
And we liked it that way, dagnabit!
  #193  
Old 11-21-2014, 02:49 PM
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I'm surprised that I'm the first to post this, but apparently the New Orleans detectives responsible for investigating sexual assault, didn't conduct any follow up investigation for 86% of the cases reported to them.
http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/...elated_stories
And I keep scratching my head.

If these 5 Detectives were lazy/incompetent, so much so that they could couldn't be arsed to do the most basic of investigatory tasks, why the FUCK WOULD YOU PUT THEM UNIFORM AND HAVE THEM PATROL THE STREETS??????


Quote:
A Saratoga County sheriff's sergeant was suspended after a video posted on the Internet Friday captured him allegedly slapping a young man as the deputy insisted on searching his vehicle, which had a rifle on the back seat.
I'm outraged, both by the behavior and by the use of the word 'allegedly'. If there is video of him slapping the kid, then he is not allegedly slapping the kid. If you can see the slap, then there is proof that slap occurred. Grow some balls.
  #194  
Old 11-21-2014, 05:25 PM
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Well, here's a New York City cop who accidentally killed someone:

Quote:
A New York City police officer has been placed on administrative duty after he shot and killed an unarmed man in the dark hallway of a Brooklyn public housing development late Thursday night. Law enforcement officials say they believe it was an accident.

The officer and his partner were on a “vertical patrol” and were conducting floor-by-floor sweeps of the Louis Pink Houses about 11:15 p.m. Thursday when they encountered a 28-year-old man in the darkened stairwell of the building.

Officer Peter Liang, who had unholstered his gun and taken out his flashlight in the dark, fired one shot in the dark. The gunshot hit 28-year-old Akai Gurley in the chest, and he fell down the stairs, police said. A woman who was with Gurley performed CPR on him until an ambulance arrived, but he was later pronounced dead at a nearby hospital.

In a press conference, Police Commissioner William J. Bratton called the shooting an “unfortunate tragedy” and said radio transmissions from the scene indicate Liang fired his gun accidentally. “It appears to be an accidental discharge, with no intention to strike anybody,” Bratton told reporters.
http://www.latimes.com/nation/nation...121-story.html

Can you believe it: they took his gun away even though it was an acccident!
  #195  
Old 11-21-2014, 05:39 PM
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If I'm not mistaken, when you're put on paid admin leave after a shooting ... any shooting ... you need to turn in your service weapon.
  #196  
Old 11-25-2014, 12:50 AM
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My understanding is that firearm confiscation in NYC is automatic (if temporary) after a discharge outside of a shooting range. I do know that all discharges are investigated by a team and are followed up by procedures including eg immediate alcohol tests of all officers involved. Most NYC cops never discharge their weapon during their career: the annual rate is something like 1/4 of one percent. http://www.rand.org/pubs/research_br...59/index1.html
http://www.rand.org/pubs/monographs/MG717.html


----
Salt Lake Tribune: "In the past five years, more Utahns have been killed by police than by gang members. Or drug dealers. Or from child abuse..

Killed by Utah cops since 2010: 45 people, which is 15% of all homicides. How does this compare with other states? It's hard to say because of spotty statistics. One source puts the number of police-involved homicides at 400 but that's almost certainly an underestimate. I say better data is needed. But that Utah number seems... high.

Ian Adams, spokesman for the Utah Fraternal Order of Police, disagrees: "The onus is on the person being arrested to stop trying to assault and kill police officers and the innocent public. … Why do some in society continue to insist the problem lies with police officers?"

Ok, so there's no need to reassess police training and procedures in Utah: they are already perfect. Good to know! I have my citation and I believe everything I read.

Last edited by Measure for Measure; 11-25-2014 at 12:54 AM.
  #197  
Old 11-25-2014, 03:43 AM
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In Cleveland a cop shot and killed a 12 year old boy at a playground who had a toy gun:
http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index...ions_abou.html

Last edited by PastTense; 11-25-2014 at 03:43 AM.
  #198  
Old 11-25-2014, 09:27 AM
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Having read the last few posts in this thread, I'm left wondering if a person can be driven to violence by having gone through Junior High with the name "Glans".
  #199  
Old 11-25-2014, 10:18 AM
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Police in Utah kill more people than gang members do

Utah police officers have killed more civilians than gang members, drug dealers, or child abusers have over the past five years, according to a new report from the Salt Lake Tribune.

Quote:
Over a five-year period, data show that fatal shootings by police officers in Utah ranked second only to homicides of intimate partners.
And in 2014 they have exceeded intimate partner killings as well.

Quote:
Nearly all of the fatal shootings by police have been deemed by county prosecutors to be justified. Only one — the 2012 shooting of Danielle Willard by West Valley City police — was deemed unjustified, and the subsequent criminal charge was thrown out last month by a judge.
And one of the comments:
Quote:
This comes a day after I posted on another story that Utah's number of police killings per year would be 3.7 if it met the national average. So our rate is three times higher than expected (for the past year, at least). Good reason to question if excessive force and use of guns is occurring.
  #200  
Old 11-25-2014, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by BigAppleBucky View Post
Police in Utah kill more people than gang members do

Utah police officers have killed more civilians than gang members, drug dealers, or child abusers have over the past five years, according to a new report from the Salt Lake Tribune.

And in 2014 they have exceeded intimate partner killings as well.



And one of the comments:
Sorry - that was a duplicate post caused by a failure of the search function within this thread. I searched on Utah and the post above was not highlighted. Got past the 30 second edit timeframe before I noticed.

Last edited by BigAppleBucky; 11-25-2014 at 10:26 AM.
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