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  #151  
Old 06-23-2016, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Tithonus View Post
Maybe it's because fatness is, in the vast majority of cases, self-inflicted and therefore seen as fair game? A short guy can't do anything about being short.
Okay, but if we accept that as true, that undermines the argument, which has been made, that short men are as reviled as fat women.

Either short men are as reviled as fat women and that's not fair, or;

Short men are not as reviled as fat women only because fat women have some devastating character flaw demonstrative of ''lesser merit'' and short men can't help who they are.

Pick one.

Last edited by Spice Weasel; 06-23-2016 at 06:34 PM.
  #152  
Old 06-23-2016, 06:39 PM
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if we are a merit based society, short men who keep in shape are more meritful than fat chicks. Isn't part of non-communism the belief in merit, hard work, etc.?
My part of non-communism is the belief that the customer is always right merit is in the eye of the beholder.

If I tell you I'm attracted to the woman at the end of the bar, you might say you find her fat and unattractive. And another guy might say she's thinner than he'd like, and thus unattractive. But since this is a scenario where I find her attractive, my belief is that (a) she merits my full attention and (b) I'm not going to waste time disputing matters of taste with you guys when I could be chatting with her.
  #153  
Old 06-23-2016, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by DerekMichaels00 View Post
if we are a merit based society, short men who keep in shape are more meritful than fat chicks. Isn't part of non-communism the belief in merit, hard work, etc.?
What about short guys who are angry, bitter, say misogynistic things, and feel entitled to sex? They seem the least "meritful" of all.
  #154  
Old 06-23-2016, 06:55 PM
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As Velocity pointed out, some people are at a greater disadvantage than others. That's reality. Some men are born short, some people sustain 3rd degree burns over large parts of their body, and some children are trafficked into the sex trade before they even have a chance to develop a sense of sexual identity for themselves. I would not cover over the inherent injustice of life in general, and certainly that injustice extends to matters of love. That is not to say any of those folks are beyond hope... I don't believe for a second anyone is. But you can never predict with these things.

I'm a fat girl who met the love of her life at 18. Maybe unfair by Derek's yardstick, but let's talk about what happens when you know you don't have a chance in hell of winning any beauty pageants, so you instead focus your life on being just the most awesome person you can be. The smartest, most compassionate, critically thinking, open-minded, thoughtful person you can be. Some people are attracted to that. It'll up your odds considerably if you're not a shallow self-obsessed jerk.

I just happen to think being a person of good moral character is about as meritful as it gets. I dunno if it's saying ''pull yourself up by your own bootstraps'' to point that out? To say we can make a choice about what we value in life and the closer our actions align with those values, the happier we will be? I don't know if that comment was directed to me, I can't figure out where it came from.

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Originally Posted by Derek
if we are a merit based society, short men who keep in shape are more meritful than fat chicks. Isn't part of non-communism the belief in merit, hard work, etc.?
I'm not sure what you're complaining about. This is the society you want to live in. You contribute nothing of value, you get nothing of value.

Last edited by Spice Weasel; 06-23-2016 at 07:00 PM.
  #155  
Old 06-23-2016, 07:06 PM
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What does the OP think of tall guys with small dicks?
  #156  
Old 06-23-2016, 08:10 PM
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So much anger and hate in this thread.
  #157  
Old 06-23-2016, 09:02 PM
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So much anger and hate in this thread.
Yeah, and it's starting to really piss me the fuck off.
  #158  
Old 06-23-2016, 09:04 PM
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When you can stop seeing a world divided into hot or not hot women, you'll stop feeling like you're living in a world divided into tall or not tall men.
  #159  
Old 06-23-2016, 10:08 PM
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Honestly, attraction wise, being short is worse than being fat for the exact reason given by the OP. Attraction is generally based, subconsciously and consciously, on the person's ability to parent children who will also be able to parent children. That's what our genes command from us.

A short person can be short for two main reasons, bad genes and bad nutrition, both of which speak volumes as to the suitability of a person to father children. If bad nutrition then the person, or that person's parents, have for whatever reason been unable to acquire enough food to grow normally which means that man is less likely to be able to provide enough food for their own children.
Or when shortness is due to bad genes it means that the person will almost never produce tall children. Also tallness being important in that it makes a man, faster, stronger, tend towards health, and is an indicator for intelligence. [1][2]

Overweight on the other hand indicates that a person has been successful for a long time at acquiring more food with less work. In times where food was hard to get, e.g. 99.999% of human history, this was a strong indicator that a man was well suited to providing for their wife and children and that they were unlikely to starve or suffer from malnutrition.

On top of that if I'm tall and fat and you're fit and short, than if I go on a diet I won't be fat any more but you'll still be short.

1. http://www.nydailynews.com/life-styl...icle-1.1710484
2. https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...shorter-people
  #160  
Old 06-23-2016, 10:17 PM
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When you can stop seeing a world divided into hot or not hot women, you'll stop feeling like you're living in a world divided into tall or not tall men.
This is a really concise way of explaining that we're not playing a zero-sum game, here.
  #161  
Old 06-23-2016, 10:50 PM
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Honestly, attraction wise, being short is worse than being fat for the exact reason given by the OP. Attraction is generally based, subconsciously and consciously, on the person's ability to parent children who will also be able to parent children. That's what our genes command from us.

A short person can be short for two main reasons, bad genes and bad nutrition, both of which speak volumes as to the suitability of a person to father children. If bad nutrition then the person, or that person's parents, have for whatever reason been unable to acquire enough food to grow normally which means that man is less likely to be able to provide enough food for their own children.
Or when shortness is due to bad genes it means that the person will almost never produce tall children. Also tallness being important in that it makes a man, faster, stronger, tend towards health, and is an indicator for intelligence. [1][2]

Overweight on the other hand indicates that a person has been successful for a long time at acquiring more food with less work. In times where food was hard to get, e.g. 99.999% of human history, this was a strong indicator that a man was well suited to providing for their wife and children and that they were unlikely to starve or suffer from malnutrition.

On top of that if I'm tall and fat and you're fit and short, than if I go on a diet I won't be fat any more but you'll still be short.

1. http://www.nydailynews.com/life-styl...icle-1.1710484
2. https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...shorter-people
While valid points, this doesn't explain why a woman being short is not used against her. A woman who is 2 SD below average height (maybe 4'11") will not face the same negative impacts on her mating life as a man whose height is 2SD below average (maybe 5'4"). Women value tall men, men do not value tall women. Height is a sign of good genetics and good nutrition (as well as resistance to infections and parasites), but it only seems to matter for male attractiveness.

As far as weight, my understanding is it is more ratios that matter. A woman's waist should ideally be 70% the size of her hips and chest, a man's waist should ideally be less than 75% the size of his shoulders. How fat/thin you are beyond that isn't important.

If anything, fat/thin dynamics are a class issue. When the poor ate a spartan diet and did manual labor, being fat was a sign of sexual attractiveness since only the rich had the surplus time and money to get fat. When poor people ate processed food and became obese (and didn't have the money or time to obsess over their appearance) then thin became in. It is argued that one reason thinness is attractive now is that thinness is like peacock feathers. Only people with surplus time and money can afford to be thin. Planning all your meals, spending hours at the gym, obsessing over calories, etc. imply you have a surplus of time, money and energy. Poor people who are raising 3 kids and a full time job do not have the time, money and energy for that.

So there is a strong class component in whether a society prefers fat people or thin people. When being fat is a sign of surplus resources (time and money), people find fat people sexy. When being thin is a sign of surplus resources (time and money), people find thin people sexy.

Last edited by Wesley Clark; 06-23-2016 at 10:52 PM.
  #162  
Old 06-23-2016, 11:36 PM
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A short person can be short for two main reasons, bad genes and bad nutrition, both of which speak volumes as to the suitability of a person to father children. If bad nutrition then the person, or that person's parents, have for whatever reason been unable to acquire enough food to grow normally which means that man is less likely to be able to provide enough food for their own children.
tell me you're joking; those are not the two main reasons. Genetics is THE main reason. Nutrition may add 2 or 3 inches to final height, but not the 6, 10 inches that can make or break dating/sex, and even social/professional lives for men (since the jocks are always the cool kids and are usually taller).

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Also tallness being important in that it makes a man, faster, stronger, tend towards health, and is an indicator for intelligence. [1][2]
The correlation coefficient in these studies tends to be very small, as in a math fluke, but not enough to have too high a p-value.
Quote:
The study analysed 6,815 unrelated people and found some relationship between height and intelligence, although this relationship was not very strong.
Quote:
"What we found was a small association between height and intelligence such that people who are taller tend to be smarter.”
Oh yea; this kind of correlation has been found in fat people too.
Quote:
It is bad for your blood pressure, knocks years off your life and is a strain on your heart. Now scientists have discovered that gaining weight lowers your intelligence.
The findings follow last week's government figures that show Britain as the "fat man" of Europe, with nearly a quarter of adults and more than 14 per cent of children under 16 classified as obese.

The new five-year study of more than 2,200 adults claims to have found a link between obesity and the decline in a person's cognitive function. The research, conducted by French scientists, which is published in this month's Neurology journal, involved men and women aged between 32 and 62 taking four mental ability tests that were then repeated five years later.
Gee, I wonder what would happen if you did this kind of "study" on another group of people with a trait they can't change (except Michael Jackson) or control...hmmmm. Or the ones who were once non-white, but for Ivy League admissions, are considered more "white" than whites (and who aren't very tall either). How about the NBA too?

Last edited by DerekMichaels00; 06-23-2016 at 11:38 PM.
  #163  
Old 06-24-2016, 12:38 AM
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By the way he spelled "honoured," I see he's not American.
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He claims to be American; he's all over the political threads. British spelling does pop up from time to time in his posts, but not consistently.
Nah, he's just a huge admirer of Qin Shi Huangdi, and wants to emulate him in as many ways as possible...
  #164  
Old 06-24-2016, 01:07 AM
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Nah, he's just a huge admirer of Qin Shi Huangdi, and wants to emulate him in as many ways as possible...
Yeah, I've noticed that "emulation" as well.
  #165  
Old 06-24-2016, 02:07 AM
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Really? Huh.

I thought I was being a smartass.
  #166  
Old 06-24-2016, 11:25 AM
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So much anger and hate in this thread.
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...5&postcount=57

Maybe you're in the wrong threads.
  #167  
Old 06-24-2016, 12:29 PM
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So much hate and anger in both of these threads.
  #168  
Old 06-24-2016, 01:58 PM
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Really? I took it as bitterness from the OP, and snark by the audience. Where's the hate?
  #169  
Old 06-24-2016, 02:29 PM
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Really? I took it as bitterness from the OP, and snark by the audience. Where's the hate?
The way the OP speaks about fat women seems hateful to me.
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Old 06-24-2016, 02:35 PM
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Really? I took it as bitterness from the OP, and snark by the audience. Where's the hate?
Lots of hate in all that snark too.
  #171  
Old 06-24-2016, 03:23 PM
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Is that heavier woman can "look down" on a short guy a great example of sexual affirmative action brought about the "feminism," which clearly looks for easy targets, and short men are?
Short men are not easy targets. They're much smaller and harder to hit
  #172  
Old 06-24-2016, 03:27 PM
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A short guy can't do anything about being short.
He can wear platform shoes on his nasty little feet.
  #173  
Old 06-24-2016, 04:15 PM
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Lots of hate in all that snark too.

I doubt many snarkers can separate the OP from his hateful attitude expressed here and previously all over the boards, hence really biting sarcasm in turn.
  #174  
Old 06-24-2016, 04:34 PM
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So much hate and anger in both of these threads.
Are you having the vapors?
  #175  
Old 06-24-2016, 04:52 PM
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Short men are not easy targets. They're much smaller and harder to hit
Right, they can bob around like those old Bozo dolls.
  #176  
Old 06-24-2016, 05:46 PM
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except women are the protected class from criticism, including fat women. "Protected classes" is a common feature of cultural marxism.
Cultural Marxism is a nonsense term, since one of the basic tenets of Marxism is that culture is epiphenomenon of economics.

You can be a Marxist and care about cultural issues (a lot of Marxists have had various things to say about sex, the family, gender, etc.), but when they do so, they aren't doing "Marxism" per se.
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Old 06-24-2016, 06:01 PM
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I doubt many snarkers can separate the OP from his hateful attitude expressed here and previously all over the boards, hence really biting sarcasm in turn.
We've tried. He seems impervious to facts, reason and logic.
  #178  
Old 06-25-2016, 08:42 AM
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Are you having the vapors?

He seems to. He's all over multiple threads, posting the same things about how awful men are treated. Or something. It seems he has a right bee in his bonnet over the ladies. Poor lad.

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We've tried. He seems impervious to facts, reason and logic.

True, but I doubt anyone lets that detract from their fun.
  #179  
Old 06-25-2016, 02:50 PM
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cultural marxism.
Ah, I see
  #180  
Old 06-25-2016, 03:39 PM
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This would seem to indicate that you might also subscribe to a system of "sexual affirmative action" in relationships, although you are using "equality". Interesting. Kind of makes me queasy, but interesting. The way the world is set up, what is preventing those people from approaching the person they desire to have coffee with, say, and asking for that time. If the dating scene is the rough equivalent of the interview process, aren't most interested parties out there all of the time interacting with equal opportunity, if they choose to do so?

How would a more affirmative dating environment work? Do all women/men/people have to say yes to all men/women/people? (See, this is where the queasiness was creeping in.)

How exactly would you align politics with dating? Actually, I'm not entirely sure that I see your inconsistencies at all, but curious to how you think the system ought to work.

Yeah, it's hard to say because dating and relationships is a very contradictory topic....it is just odd, sometimes.

Society often has this tendency to perpetuate a certain form of Social Darwinism in dating. Essentially, people who are attractive, gain confidence, which makes them even more attractive and successful in dating. And conversely, people who are unattractive, lose more confidence, which gets them rejected even more, and then sends them on a downward spiral.

It would be nice to see society stop doing that, as far as the negative spiral is concerned. If attractive people gain confidence, all the better for them. But the constant rejection of unattractive people has a tendency to destroy their confidence and set them up for a repeated cycle of failure, eventually making them all the more bitter and un-datable and makes it even harder for them.

Many people speak at length about a similar cycle of failure in poverty, education, social equality, etc. - for instance, that minorities may suffer prejudice, which makes them fail in school, which them makes it hard to get a job, which then sets them and their children up for more failure, and a downward spiral of failure and continued failure feeding on itself. A similar thing happens in dating and relationships - failure begets failure and success begets success.

What I was trying to say in my post was - many people flip-flop on their political philosophy when it comes to dating. People who get outraged over economic or societal or educational "have" and "have-nots" are somehow perfectly OK with a "have" vs. "have-nots" dynamic when it comes to dating and relationships, even though I would say that having a romantic partner and a good love life is for many people actually a basic human need. Conversely, some people who would argue for meritocracy anywhere else in politics or society and "let the best rise to the top on their merits" may be dismayed upon finding out that a meritocratic romance/dating system leaves them at the bottom.

I do think that it would be better for society to focus less on looks and more on character. But eventually some people who have been rejected repeatedly may begin to have a poisoned, bitter personality as well.

TL;DR; it's complicated.
  #181  
Old 06-25-2016, 04:06 PM
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What is sexual communism? Free love hippy communes? Or Marxist-style, "someone will pick up the trash because someone is meant to be a trash collector" communism? Or is it "Let's put the women in a love camp for the men to stop by and visit" communism? One of these sounds better than the other, in case you were wondering.
Traditionally "sexual communism" has been "old guys get to bang young women" - see the Oneida colonies for an example of sexual communism - or the more modern The Family.
  #182  
Old 06-25-2016, 06:17 PM
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But eventually some people who have been rejected repeatedly may begin to have a poisoned, bitter personality as well.
This remarks leads us to discuss the biggest fallacy in ALL these bitter, allegedly misogynistic, threads, and not just in these threads but IRL too.

I'll give the TL;DR first, since I can see this is going to be lengthy: Those nasty bitter cynical misogynistic males weren't born that way (mostly, probably). Many of them could have been actual nice guys in their earlier lives, but socially awkward (or maybe just short), and were largely or totally unsuccessful with the females for years and years and years -- then they become cynical, angry, and bitter. Not the other way around. They aren't losers with the ladies because they are bitter (well, now they are, but it wasn't always that way). No, they were nice guys but became bitter after year upon year of -- nothing -- and thus they evolved from nice guys to "Nice Guys(tm)".

[/end of TL;DR]

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

It's so easy to snark and revile at those bitter cynical people like OP, and to tell them: Well of course you're never going to get any "chicks", "fat" or otherwise, if you're going to be like that!

Here's the fallacy: Do you think all these bitter, angry, love-starved, sex-starved guys were always like that? Do you think they were born like that? Probably not, usually, I would suppose. How do you think they got that way in the first place?

These are people who might well have been "nice guys" [not "Nice Guys(tm)"] in their earlier existence -- you know, those nerdy or socially awkward males who, as flodnak put it:
Quote:
Originally Posted by flodnak, 04-30-2006: View Post
. . . looks like that guy in high school who... well, you couldn't put your finger on it. He didn't have some awful skin disease. He wasn't shunned as a nerd. He didn't have horrible coke-bottle glasses, his mother didn't cut his hair with an upturned bowl, you couldn't smell his breath at twenty paces, he didn't chew with his mouth open, and he didn't snort when he laughed. And yet, and yet... he couldn't get a date to save his life.

Not unattractive, but not even in the same zip code as sexy.
(Okay, we'll overlook that fact that the above quote was discussing Rick Santorum. It could be any number of other dweebs.)

What do you think happens when they get rejected -- can't hardly ever even get a coffee date, let alone get an actual relationship going -- for month after month after month year after year after year? It is any surprise that these guys are going to get more than a little bit bitter by and by?

Then they evolve from "nice guy" into "Nice Guy(tm)" -- the embittered long-term rejects, reviled and demonized by everyone. They are accused of "feeling entitled to sex", although I challenge anyone here to find a case where one of them actually said or wrote that. See this rather recent thread, titled "Nice Guys" vs. Decent, Albeit Clueless, Men" for discussion. Look at kunilou's vacuous attempt to be helpful:
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Originally Posted by kunilou, 03-16-2016: View Post
As a nice guy who's managed to be married for more than 30 years now, I can decode this for you.

"There's nothing actually wrong with you, but I have zero attraction toward you."

Of course, this is completely shattering to a teenager (boy or girl) but on the bright side, it's also nothing personal.

The only way I can describe it is by metaphor.

Sometimes you studied hard but the test asked different questions.

Sometimes you're set for a fastball but the pitcher throws a curve.

Assuming they're actually nice and not "Nice Guys" things will click for them eventually.
Look: "There's nothing actually wrong with you, but I have zero attraction toward you."

What happens when one hears that over and over, year after year after year? That might actually (and does) happen to a socially awkward male. Is it true that he "There's nothing actually wrong with you"? If so, then why no relationship after years and years? Or is it false that "There's nothing actually wrong with you"? In which case, all the friends that said that were flat-out talking BSDL (Bullshit, doubletalk and lies).

Answer: They just might turn into that guy that Loach knows:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loach, 10-25-2012: View Post
One of my acquaintances who has become old, bitter and alone complains constantly about the evils of women and why they won't date a nice guy like him. Believe me it is obvious to all his friends.
If these males can go for so many years without a match, does prove that they were, in face, just jerks all along? If so, why didn't their so-called "friends" tell them, along with some actual helpful suggestions -- as opposed to kunilou's vacuous pablum?

More correctly, they were "promised" a relationship (never sex explicitly, but of course that's implied). All their so-called "friends" (all of whom perceived from the moment they met that such a guy had no chance of ever getting laid a girlfriend) assured them that they just need to get out more and meet more females; surely there is someone in one of your classes [or wherever] who is interested in you; there are plenty of available people to meet (notwithstanding that the majority of those are in China); "plenty of fish"; you'll meet that special someone eventually -- All BSDL! These "nice guys" hear that for years from all their "friends", who knew all along it was BSDL. Look again at kunilou's last line:

"Assuming they're actually nice and not "Nice Guys" things will click for them eventually."

Lies! Bullshit, doubletalk and lies! BSDL!

These guys aren't asking "where's all this sex I'm entitled to?" -- they're asking "where's all this sex [a proxy for a relationships, really] that I've been promised all these years?" Yes, it takes a while for a naive young adult (especially a socially awkward one) to understand that "things will click for [you] eventually" is just a vacuous anodyne lie.

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Originally Posted by spamforbrains, 03-16-2016 View Post
Cluelessness can be fixed. Jerks who pretend to be "nice" well, not so much. All your boys need is some instructions and education. Where to get this I am not sure. Do you have any women friends who could help out?
No, these guys don't have any "women friends who could help out". That's unheard of. If they have any female acquaintances at all (a rare case in itself), they will offer nothing more than the anodyne BSDL, like the examples above, and maybe lots of that.

Here's a rich one: "Just hang tight another six weeks until the wedding. You're certain to meet someone there." Yes, some-female-one really said that.

(The more I skim through that thread (here's the link again) the more it seems like required reading. Look carefully -- see all the sweet romantic anodyne lies there.)

Hey, I just googled site:boards.straightdope.com dry spell and got a whole page of threads discussing how long various posters' last or current "dry spell" was -- where "dry spell" is explicitly defined as time since last getting laid. Yeah, people actually talk about that -- a lot. I'm inclined to interpret "sexual dry spell" as a metaphor that actually means "not having an actual relationship" for a long time. The more common response seems to be along the lines "hey, you got hands? So shut up and masturbate. What more do you need?" Um.... y'know, sitting home alone jerking off doesn't really substitute for all the things a relationship can be. I see anger and hostility in so many responses like that.

Enough. So:

Summary: Even actual nice guys get turned down incessantly for years on end, until they become angry, bitter, and resentful, and evolve into the reviled "Nice Guy(tm)". -- Can you blame them? "Entitlement" has nothing to do with it.
  #183  
Old 06-25-2016, 06:24 PM
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So... it is all the women's fault, after all?
  #184  
Old 06-25-2016, 06:38 PM
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Turned down, again and again, the 'for something they feel entitled to', is totally implied.

Read some basic psychology, resentment and bitterness arise when you do A and don't get B.

But ONLY when you feel A entitles you to B.

So it couldn't be that these men get turned down again, and again, because they can't own that they DO feel short changed for something they had every right to EXPECT. In other words they feel entitled to! Women are pretty good at picking that up.
  #185  
Old 06-25-2016, 07:03 PM
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The OP essentially amounts to "How dare fat chicks think they're in my league! I, as a short man, am of a higher class of fuckability than fat chicks!"

Given that, all this discussion about "nice guys" is beside the point.

The OP finds that the women he wants to fuck don't want to fuck him, and the women who might agree to fuck him are not of his preference. It's neither a tragedy nor an injustice.
  #186  
Old 06-25-2016, 07:17 PM
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Traditionally "sexual communism" has been "old guys get to bang young women"
(Quickly stands and sings)

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This is the time and place!
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  #187  
Old 06-26-2016, 03:18 AM
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What happens when one hears that over and over, year after year after year? That might actually (and does) happen to a socially awkward male.
You say this like you're revealing some big truth to the ladies, like maybe we've never considered what it means to be socially awkward. I'm going to blow your mind here - but many women know first hand that being socially awkward means that they will not have social success. And even women who are not socially awkward will still have had that experience of wanting to date someone who doesn't want them back.

Everyone has experienced social awkwardness in their lives, even if it was a brief weekend in fifth grade. It is not a special distinction that absolves the awkward one from making any effort to learn some social graces. Embracing the "Socially Awkward" label does not obligate people - even fat women - to accept the Awkward One's physical embraces.

If you want social success, stop blaming everyone else and learn some social skills.
  #188  
Old 06-26-2016, 07:06 AM
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What about short guys who are angry, bitter, say misogynistic things, and feel entitled to sex? They seem the least "meritful" of all.
Which is why they'll never get any (sex or companionship) until they change their attitudes. Really, this thread makes me see a certain poster's political opinions in a new light. Almost as informative as him coming out as an anti-vaxxer...

Last edited by Bridget Burke; 06-26-2016 at 07:07 AM.
  #189  
Old 06-26-2016, 07:20 AM
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Back when I was an overweight and awkward youth I learned that I could get as much sex as I could wheedle and cajole for. I never felt entitled to it; I recognized that I was going to need to work hard, lie, and otherwise fool women into sleeping with me.

Then I grew up, learned that women are people first, and many would happily boink me once we became friends.

If any of these boys are actually looking for advice the old bit about being comfortable and confident in yourself is the one thing that really works. And the women can tell if you're faking.
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  #190  
Old 06-26-2016, 01:20 PM
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Lots of 'interesting' posts. But the original question almost has to be satirical, exaggerating the modern concept of 'rights' to an absurd degree to illustrate how sill it is in general. Doesn't it? If other people are attracted to you sexually they are, if they aren't not. The idea they need an explanation for that in terms of 'fairness' or 'consistency' is ridiculous. Is the satire based on the recent thread about 'racism' if people have some racial taste in who they're attracted to? That one was around 5% valid in some limited cases. I guess somebody is looking for one totally absurd to see if anyone takes the bait.
  #191  
Old 06-26-2016, 01:45 PM
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Lots of 'interesting' posts. But the original question almost has to be satirical, exaggerating the modern concept of 'rights' to an absurd degree to illustrate how sill it is in general. Doesn't it? If other people are attracted to you sexually they are, if they aren't not.
No, what I really think I see in the OP's tirade is a sorry, angry, lonely guy, consumed in umpty-ump years of bitterness, but who may have once been a perfectly cromulent person (maybe). But due to non-stop rejection, perhaps due to social awkwardness or maybe just really because being short, became embittered over the years. (If not this OP in particular, then certainly many other males.) The ugliness of the OP's statement now is reflecting that.

My whole main point in all my posts in these recent threads is that most of these guys probably weren't angry bitter misogynists in the first place, but were unsuccessful in romance anyway. So it's fallacious to blame their failures on their bad attitudes -- even though that may obviously the case now. And that's where I make the argument that they're being demonized and vilified. AND that they're hurting for lack of real relationships, with all the companionship, affection, and intimacy that that entails -- not just for lack of access to tits ass and pussy. And, well, yes, that too.

ETA:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peremensoe View Post
So... it is all the women's fault, after all?
No, I didn't exactly say that. What I am saying is: Hey, can you blame them for getting so embittered?

Last edited by Senegoid; 06-26-2016 at 01:49 PM.
  #192  
Old 06-26-2016, 01:57 PM
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I've seldom complained about my lack of tallness, and never really viewed it as a liability. For instance, my short friend and I were both guards on the school basketball team, and he, at least, was quite popular with the girls. My local fitness gym owner is a few inches shorter than me, and he's hitched to an attractive female partner.

However, my short sister talks about "short man syndrome", how short men are bitter etc., and she married a tall guy that she describes as "strapping" and he has referred to me laughingly as a "little man". Whatever, to each their own, I guess. Bleh.
  #193  
Old 06-26-2016, 01:59 PM
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Can you explain your certainty that they didn't start out bitter and with a bad attitude? Because it's easy to say, the rejection made them this way. As easy as saying they have been seeing women as prey, which they're entitled to, and meet with only rejection as a result. And now, rather than own any of their own bullshit, they just aggressively project it onto 'women' !

Your certainty they were once just nice guys flies in the face of the experience of most women, in my opinion. Actual nice fellas don't project their bullshit onto others and blame their failures with women on the women. They learn from their experiences, mature and become better dates.

Bitter and angry are choices. No matter how tall you aren't or how socially awkward you are. And it's the choice of neither a mature nor a nice guy.
  #194  
Old 06-26-2016, 03:19 PM
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Can you explain your certainty that they didn't start out bitter and with a bad attitude? Because it's easy to say, the rejection made them this way. As easy as saying they have been seeing women as prey, which they're entitled to, and meet with only rejection as a result. And now, rather than own any of their own bullshit, they just aggressively project it onto 'women' !

Your certainty they were once just nice guys flies in the face of the experience of most women, in my opinion. Actual nice fellas don't project their bullshit onto others and blame their failures with women on the women. They learn from their experiences, mature and become better dates.

Bitter and angry are choices. No matter how tall you aren't or how socially awkward you are. And it's the choice of neither a mature nor a nice guy.
Your certainty that males see females as "prey" is at least as misandrist as all the misogynist crap one sees all over. No, it's not just you at all. Look at that nearby thread (the one about female's responses to males simply looking at them). This isn't new at all; "feminists" have complained for at least 40 years that I know, that males "undress them with their eyes". That's some kind of paranoia there. For a nicer and more refreshing view, dig through that thread again for some of Renee's comments.

Every bit as much, there has been endless discussion, long before the Internet, in singles' magazines and Usenet (soc.singles), about the socially clueless males who haven't done a thing wrong yet can't get a date to save their lives. Did you think I'm imagining that? And, somehow, a lot of them never figure it out. One thing seems certain: There's no feedback. A guy can get turned down for dates a hundred times and never be given a word of feedback why. His so-called friends won't tell him, usually (or won't tell him truthfully). Moreover, a guy can get the occasional one-time dates that never lead to a second date -- thus, a chance to actually socialize with a female for a while and try to initiate a relationshop -- and never get a word of feedback as to why they don't get a second date. For males who don't get it instinctively, they just can't learn it.

All those "Relationships" self-help books you see on shelves from horizon to horizon at Barnes & Noble? Total pablum, bullshit, doubletalk, and lies. Every female is different, right? Yet they say that, somehow, a male is supposed to be able to learn something from each date, for how to conduct himself at the next date. See the vast disconnect there?

And never mind whose "fault" it is -- you can't see how demoralizing and embittering it is to live a life so thoroughly love-starved for 10, 20, 30, 40 years on end? That's heartless. These aren't the guys who just have a six-month "dry spell".

Okay, I'll abstain on the remark that some females may have it just as bad. I only see the males perspective here, being ostensibly one of them. I can't really "relate" to how females experience that. I'll leave one note in passing on that though: One of the most standard "advices" for love-starved males is "Lower your standards dude! You can't always get a #10" (ETA: Old-style roll-eyes). Yet hell's fury rains down upon anyone (especially any male) who dares to suggest that a female "lower her standards". Re-read this thread; it's right here in this thread.

Last edited by Senegoid; 06-26-2016 at 03:22 PM.
  #195  
Old 06-26-2016, 03:39 PM
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My whole main point in all my posts in these recent threads is that most of these guys probably weren't angry bitter misogynists in the first place, but were unsuccessful in romance anyway. So it's fallacious to blame their failures on their bad attitudes -- even though that may obviously the case now.
There must have been some reason for it. There's, like, millions of women out there. If none of them dig you, is it more likely that there's something wrong with all of them, or with you?

Quote:
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Hey, can you blame them for getting so embittered?
Yes. They are not entitled to anyone's special affection, and they have no right to be nastier to people as a result.
  #196  
Old 06-26-2016, 03:43 PM
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No, I didn't exactly say that. What I am saying is: Hey, can you blame them for getting so embittered?
Lots of people have been dealt a shitty hand. But not everyone is going around posting hateful OPs. This may shock a few folks, but short guys who can't get laid don't have a monopoly on the blues! There are a ton of Dopers who have sadder tales of woe than the OP and are a hell of a lot nicer. So I'm going to save my compassion and sympathy for those folks. I have no fucks to give for the OP.

Pause for a moment and consider that folks like the OP make other miserable sexually frustrated dudes look bad. He's a walking stereotype. So your self-righteous scolding should be directed towards him, not the posters who are reacting negatively to him.

The OP could be a nice-guy-gone-bad. Or he could be lifelong dick. Just because you choose to assume the former doesn't mean the rest of us are wrong for assuming the latter.

Last edited by monstro; 06-26-2016 at 03:44 PM.
  #197  
Old 06-26-2016, 04:01 PM
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No, what I really think I see in the OP's tirade is a sorry, angry, lonely guy, consumed in umpty-ump years of bitterness, but who may have once been a perfectly cromulent person (maybe). But due to non-stop rejection, perhaps due to social awkwardness or maybe just really because being short, became embittered over the years. (If not this OP in particular, then certainly many other males.) The ugliness of the OP's statement now is reflecting that.

My whole main point in all my posts in these recent threads is that most of these guys probably weren't angry bitter misogynists in the first place, but were unsuccessful in romance anyway. So it's fallacious to blame their failures on their bad attitudes -- even though that may obviously the case now. And that's where I make the argument that they're being demonized and vilified. AND that they're hurting for lack of real relationships, with all the companionship, affection, and intimacy that that entails -- not just for lack of access to tits ass and pussy. And, well, yes, that too.

ETA:


No, I didn't exactly say that. What I am saying is: Hey, can you blame them for getting so embittered?
I know they're hurting for affection, intimacy, etc. But they only have themselves to blame, and yes, I blame them -- this is an entirely fixable problem for 99% of lonely short men, and 99% of lonely overweight men, etc. Until they figure out that the problem is themselves (and not their height or weight), and not others, or society in general, then they will never have a chance of success.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 06-26-2016 at 04:02 PM.
  #198  
Old 06-26-2016, 04:18 PM
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No, undressing women with your eyes, as obnoxious and immature as it may be is not what I meant by, 'treating women like prey'.

I meant as in, "Where's mine? I'm entitled to bag one!" Women are pretty good at picking up on that vibe. Whereas the guys putting it out, are, to a man, utterly unaware!

There are people still bitter because they aren't tall enough to be air hostesses, or that they didn't get drafted to the NBA, or because they didn't get into Harvard, didn't make head cheerleader, etc. They're only bitter, after all this time, because they thought it was there's! By definition, that's entitlement!. That's where bitterness is born.

We all know people like this. And they're all lame, and immature, and still blaming others. These guys are the same thing exactly.
  #199  
Old 06-26-2016, 05:49 PM
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There are people still bitter because they aren't tall enough to be air hostesses, or that they didn't get drafted to the NBA, or because they didn't get into Harvard, didn't make head cheerleader, etc. They're only bitter, after all this time, because they thought it was there's! By definition, that's entitlement!. That's where bitterness is born.
I don't know where you get the definition that bitterness == entitlement.
  #200  
Old 06-26-2016, 09:09 PM
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My whole main point in all my posts in these recent threads is that most of these guys probably weren't angry bitter misogynists in the first place, but were unsuccessful in romance anyway. So it's fallacious to blame their failures on their bad attitudes -- even though that may obviously the case now. And that's where I make the argument that they're being demonized and vilified.
You have no evidence that "most of these guys" were not shitty misogynists to begin with. That's just something you made up.

OTOH, we who are jumping on the OP in this thread can point to his actual shitty misogyny. The OP's crap attitude is not something we imagined. His insulting and entitled attitude is right there on display from word one.

Therefore, it is not fallacious to blame his failure in romance on his bad attitude. The reason the OP can't get laid is because he's the kind of guy who thinks fat chicks should be honored that summoned them.


And again - every person on the planet has been rejected and lonely at some time. If the OP chooses to respond by wallowing in bitterness - that's entirely his own damn fault.


Quote:
AND that they're hurting for lack of real relationships, with all the companionship, affection, and intimacy that that entails -- not just for lack of access to tits ass and pussy. And, well, yes, that too.
This is something else you've made up. The OP isn't complaining about lacking affection and intimacy. All the OP is complaining about is that he doesn't want to lower his standards to get laid and also fat chicks are acting all uppity, like affirmative action queens.
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