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  #51  
Old 07-14-2019, 05:10 PM
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Snowboarder Bo,

The Pugent Sound John Brown Gun Club describes itself as "an anti-fascist, anti-racist, pro-worker community defense organization committed to accountable, community-led defense in the Puget Sound (aka Salish Sea) region of western Washington, in the Pacific Northwest, USA."

What do you think? Big "A" Antifa or little "a"?

A couple of hours ago on their FaceBook page, the PSJBGC posted:



What do you think? Still little "a" antifa?
Having trouble with your cite finding anywhere where it mentions antifa. Maybe a little help?
  #52  
Old 07-14-2019, 05:20 PM
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Having trouble with your cite finding anywhere where it mentions antifa. Maybe a little help?
Let's start with some basics: Do you know what "antifa" is short for?
  #53  
Old 07-14-2019, 05:42 PM
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Let's start with some basics: Do you know what "antifa" is short for?
Yes. And your point? Do you believe that anyone who is against fascism is in some nebulous group called antifa?

In order for your question to be anything other than intentional gaslighting, then that means that you are either not against fascists, or you consider yourself to be a member of antifa. Which is it?
  #54  
Old 07-14-2019, 05:46 PM
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Just remember, President Eisenhower was a violent antifa.
  #55  
Old 07-14-2019, 05:49 PM
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Just remember, President Eisenhower was a violent antifa.
Did he dress all in black, wear masks, beat up people who disagreed with him, burn books?
  #56  
Old 07-14-2019, 05:52 PM
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Yes. And your point? Do you believe that anyone who is against fascism is in some nebulous group called antifa? ...
I believe the people who describe themselves as "I am antifa" are in that nebulous group. I'd also put the PSJBGC squarely in the "loose confederation of anarchistic groups that are attempting to fight fascism" (or at least tell themselves and others that they are) known as "Antifa".
  #57  
Old 07-14-2019, 05:59 PM
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I believe the people who describe themselves as "I am antifa" are in that nebulous group.
I don't care what you believe, I care about the cite that you made that you claimed showed that he was antifa, when it did nothing of the sort.

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I'd also put the PSJBGC squarely in the "loose confederation of anarchistic groups that are attempting to fight fascism" (or at least tell themselves and others that they are) known as "Antifa".
And if they do not call themselves antifa, then you will call them that anyway? If you truly are wanting to die on this hill that being anti-fascist makes you a "member" of antifa, then you still have not answered the question as to whether you are antifa or a fascist.

Personally, I think that there is far more nuanced and room to this, and that you are excluding an enormous middle here, but it is your choice to do so, you are the one that is trying to make this to be the case, so, since you are insisting that you must either be with the fascists or a member of antifa, which are you?

Last edited by k9bfriender; 07-14-2019 at 05:59 PM.
  #58  
Old 07-14-2019, 05:59 PM
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Just remember, President Eisenhower was a violent antifa.
LOL! You think the president during whose administration the USA conducted "Operation Wetback" has some kinship with this toe-tagged dipshit?
  #59  
Old 07-14-2019, 06:02 PM
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I don't care what you believe, I care about the cite that you made that you claimed showed that he was antifa, when it did nothing of the sort. ...
I'm the one that provided the cite wherein the dead terrorist declared "I am antifa". That you continue to struggle with this concept is a source of amusement for me. It literally can't get any more cut-and-dried than this. Sorry-not-sorry about your dead comrade.

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 07-14-2019 at 06:03 PM.
  #60  
Old 07-14-2019, 06:30 PM
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I'm the one that provided the cite wherein the dead terrorist declared "I am antifa". That you continue to struggle with this concept is a source of amusement for me. It literally can't get any more cut-and-dried than this. Sorry-not-sorry about your dead comrade.
Same sorry-not sorry for the victims in Oklahoma City?

If antifa runs up a higher body count than McVeigh, will you switch sides?
  #61  
Old 07-14-2019, 06:33 PM
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All this guy did was get Antifa discredited. He didn't even inflict any casualties.
Antifa is a left wing movement and therefore automatically "discredited" in the eyes of most Americans no matter what any of them do. Just as right wingers can kill anyone they please and not be "discredited".
  #62  
Old 07-14-2019, 07:04 PM
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I'm the one that provided the cite wherein the dead terrorist declared "I am antifa". That you continue to struggle with this concept is a source of amusement for me. It literally can't get any more cut-and-dried than this.
That was not the cite I was responding to that you were using to claim that the facebook group he was a part of was some sort of antifa. Try to keep up.

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Sorry-not-sorry about your dead comrade.
Hmm, never heard of him before, but he does sound like a gun nut to me, sure he's not one of your buddies?

See, this guilt by association thing can go on all day, and is pretty pointless tactic for you to try, and all to avoid the question that you so desperately want to avoid, and that is whether you are anti-fascism, or if you are pro-fascism. I suspect that you will continue to avoid answering such a simple question.

Let's see, your side has the KKK, the Proud Boys, the Nazis and the Confederates. You have people who shoot up churches and send bombs to news agencies and politicians. You have people who will threaten violence against their government in an armed standoff over grazing rights or over a conservation area, or to protect a white man from going to a rather cushy jail cell as a consequence of committing arson, to cover up evidence of poaching and endangering firefighters. In order to try to "whataboutism" your way into defending the violent facist bigots that you support, you have to create this boogieman of "ANTIFA" into some sort of super terrorist organization that gives out superpowers and free ponies. Otherwise, you may have a "Are we the baddies" moment of your own.
  #63  
Old 07-14-2019, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
Yes. And your point? Do you believe that anyone who is against fascism is in some nebulous group called antifa?

In order for your question to be anything other than intentional gaslighting, then that means that you are either not against fascists, or you consider yourself to be a member of antifa. Which is it?
I'd like to see an answer to this question.

Are you, HurricaneDitka, anti-fascist or not?
  #64  
Old 07-14-2019, 07:33 PM
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It's virtually the same system in place from the previous administration.
No it is not.
Illegal entry is a misdemeanor.
Under a 1997 court order, unaccompanied youths arriving at the border could be incarcerated.
Under Obama, people who arrived with no claim for amnesty or sanctuary were deported. People who claimed sanctuary were released until their pleas could be heard. (Overburdened immigrations courts were still very slow processing them.)

Trump (Sessions) changed the arrival rules so that people claiming sanctuary had to wait to make their claim and the rules were changed to allow more to be called illegal immigrants instead of asylum seekers, then were locked up until their claim date came up, then, despite it being a misdemeanor, Trump and co. said that they could not hold their children with their parents, so ripped the kids away, pointed to the kids as (now) "unaccompanied" and put them in separate holding cells.

This is not the same system, despite the law-breaking rump administration's claim. The same laws are on the books, but they are being twisted to cause as much harm as possible.

Last edited by tomndebb; 07-14-2019 at 07:34 PM.
  #65  
Old 07-14-2019, 08:57 PM
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Antifa is a left wing movement and therefore automatically "discredited" in the eyes of most Americans no matter what any of them do. Just as right wingers can kill anyone they please and not be "discredited".
Antifa is a movement that wears masks, delights in street violence, and behaves nearly exactly like the Sturmabteilung they claim to be fighting against. I guess irony is dead.

They should be discredited. Along with the Klan, the New Black Panther Party, MS-13, and any other political group committed to using violence to attain their goals. Go ask Andy Ngo about them and their willingness to use violence against the non-violent

Enough Antifa groups around the Web are mourning this shithead as if he were a kindred spirit. The Left delighted in tarring anyone vaguely conservative, with the actions of the turd in Chancellorsville who ran over protesters. Don't cry when the same thing happens to those on the left because some elderly burnout decided to start killing 'concentration camp' guards ahead of schedule.

Besides, relax. White guy, left-wing motivated, incompetent----can't even get a good assault weapon banning from his actions: this guy'll be out of the news by Tuesday.
  #66  
Old 07-14-2019, 09:04 PM
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So, lets let you win your argument here. Lets say that Obama started this program, and that Trump has done absolutely nothing but continue it in Obama's honor. We should even call them Obama camps.

Are you against them now?
of course not. A President is responsible for the security and well-being of his country and that includes the borders. This was not an issue with previous presidents but suddenly it's an issue. Nothing has changed except the party affiliation of the President.

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Nice attempt at playing the race card there,
It wasn't an attempt. What you said was flat out hateful racist bullshit. It was offensive.
  #67  
Old 07-14-2019, 09:07 PM
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Enough Antifa groups around the Web are mourning this shithead as if he were a kindred spirit.
About how many groups around the Web are mourning this guy? How many people do you think are mourning him?
  #68  
Old 07-14-2019, 09:10 PM
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No it is not.
Illegal entry is a misdemeanor.
and illegal.
  #69  
Old 07-14-2019, 09:13 PM
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This is bonkers. You can see the a's in your own post right?
  #70  
Old 07-14-2019, 09:58 PM
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... with this toe-tagged dipshit?
Hahahahaha! At least some one got shot to death, ammirite? Hilarious. Post a youtube link so we can all entertain ourselves.
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  #71  
Old 07-14-2019, 10:00 PM
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Antifa is a movement that wears masks, delights in street violence, and behaves nearly exactly like the Sturmabteilung they claim to be fighting against.
Pure nonsense, there'd be corpses everywhere.

Of course we all know that the rule is if you are right wing you can rape, torture and murder with impunity to the cheers of the populace & approval of the law, while if you are left wing you'll be condemned for violence if the people beating you to death bruise their fists.
  #72  
Old 07-14-2019, 10:00 PM
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I'd like to see an answer to this question.

Are you, HurricaneDitka, anti-fascist or not?
I think it's fair to characterize someone who is anti- anti-fascist as pro-fascist.
  #73  
Old 07-14-2019, 10:03 PM
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of course not. A President is responsible for the security and well-being of his country and that includes the borders. This was not an issue with previous presidents but suddenly it's an issue. Nothing has changed except the party affiliation of the President.
Except it has.

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It wasn't an attempt. What you said was flat out hateful racist bullshit. It was offensive.
Woooooooosh!
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  #74  
Old 07-14-2019, 10:19 PM
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I think it's fair to characterize someone who is anti- anti-fascist as pro-fascist.
That's fair. But it seems strange to me that someone who is asked a direct question like "Are you anti-fascist?" wouldn't answer it. I mean, it's not hard.

Last edited by manson1972; 07-14-2019 at 10:20 PM.
  #75  
Old 07-14-2019, 10:23 PM
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It wasn't a crisis before because we weren't holding immigrants in deplorable conditions indefinitely before. It's a manufactured crisis because Trump manufactured it by establishing a gulag system!
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It's virtually the same system in place from the previous administration.
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Originally Posted by Defensive Indifference View Post
Cite.
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Originally Posted by Magiver View Post
You first
OK, I finally got to a PC where I can actually copy and paste and put the right tags in.

So, I made the following core claims:
  1. the US is currently holding undocumented immigrants in deplorable conditions
  2. Trump created this situtation

I will provide cites as requested to back up these claims.

The US is currently holding undocumented immigrants in deplorable conditions

In June 2019, DHS's Office of the Inspector General inspected four detention facilities, finding:
Quote:
Overall, our inspections of four detention facilities revealed violations of ICE’s 2011 Performance-Based National Detention Standards, which set requirements for facilities housing detainees.

<snip>

All four facilities had issues with expired food, which puts detainees at risk for food-borne illnesses. At three facilities, we found that segregation practices violated standards and infringed on detainee rights. Two facilities failed to provide recreation outside detainee housing units. Bathrooms in two facilities’ detainee housing units were dilapidated and moldy. At one facility, detainees were not provided appropriate clothing and hygiene items to ensure they could properly care for themselves. Lastly, one facility allowed only non-contact visits, despite being able to accommodate in-person visitation.
A July 2019 report by DHS OIG, titled Management Alert – DHS Needs to Address Dangerous Overcrowding and Prolonged Detention of Children and Adults in the Rio Grande Valley states:
Quote:
In May 2019, we issued a management alert about dangerous overcrowding
observed in the El Paso area during our unannounced inspections of U.S.
Customs and Border Protection (CBP) holding facilities.1 During the week of
June 10, 2019, we traveled to the Rio Grande Valley in Texas and again
observed serious overcrowding and prolonged detention in Border Patrol
facilities requiring immediate attention.
The report contains photos of the conditions, which appear to be squalid. The report details the inadequate food (some detainees were fed a steady diet of nothing but bologna sandwiches) and lack of hygiene.

In between the release of these reports, the Justice department argued in federal court that it had no legal obligation to provide soap, toothbrushes, or beds for detained children (NYT article).

By any reasonable standard, the US is holding detainees in deplorable conditions.

Trump created this situation

In March 2017, Reuters reported that:
Quote:
Women and children crossing together illegally into the United States could be separated by U.S. authorities under a proposal being considered by the Department of Homeland Security, according to three government officials.

Part of the reason for the proposal is to deter mothers from migrating to the United States with their children, said the officials, who have been briefed on the proposal.

The policy shift would allow the government to keep parents in custody while they contest deportation or wait for asylum hearings. Children would be put into protective custody with the Department of Health and Human Services, in the “least restrictive setting” until they can be taken into the care of a U.S. relative or state-sponsored guardian.

Currently, families contesting deportation or applying for asylum are generally released from detention quickly and allowed to remain in the United States until their cases are resolved. A federal appeals court ruling bars prolonged child detention.

President Donald Trump has called for ending “catch and release,” in which migrants who cross illegally are freed to live in the United States while awaiting legal proceedings.
John Kelly confirmed to CNN that the administration was considering this policy shift as a way to deter immigration.

Then, beginning in the summer of 2017, HHS OIG began recording a "steep increase in the number of children who had been separated from a parent or guardian by the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) and subsequently referred to [the Office for refugee Resettlement] for care". This was approximately a year before the Trump Administration announced that the "Zero Tolerance" policy on undocumented immigrants would be implemented.

The the policy officially went into effect, marking a departure from previous administrations. As explained by Politifact:
Quote:
Before Trump came into office, families were detained together, sent back immediately or paroled into the country, said Peter Margulies, an immigration law and national security law professor at Roger Williams University School of Law. Now, prosecution is happening across the board and has become the uniform policy.

<snip>

When an adult is referred for prosecution, a child traveling with the adult is turned over to the U.S. Health and Human Services Department. That agency is responsible for placing the child with a sponsor as the child’s immigration case is resolved.

<snip>

Prosecutions were rare prior to the Trump administration, partly because they cost a lot of money and are time-consuming, Margulies said. "Previous administrations felt broad use of the 'prosecute-first' option was needlessly harsh," he said.
These reports indicate that the law has long provided the option of detaining migrants prior to adjudication of their cases, but this was seldom done. The Trump administration began using this law to detain all undocumented migrants attempting to cross the border, resulting in overcrowding, poor conditions, and family separations. This was done expressly as a means of deterring border crossings.


Magiver, you stated that this is "virtually the same system in place from the previous administration". I now ask you to support this claim.
  #76  
Old 07-14-2019, 11:04 PM
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I think it's fair to characterize someone who is anti- anti-fascist as pro-fascist.
By this logic, if you are anti- the pro-life side (in abortion), are you pro-death?
  #77  
Old 07-14-2019, 11:09 PM
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That's not very good logic, Velocity.
  #78  
Old 07-14-2019, 11:13 PM
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By this logic, if you are anti- the pro-life side (in abortion), are you pro-death?
That is certainly the rhetoric of both sides of that argument. But I haven't heard a good PR spin on those who are worried about antifa. The op wants to call them "terrorists"...but... *redacted*
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  #79  
Old 07-14-2019, 11:23 PM
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That's fair. But it seems strange to me that someone who is asked a direct question like "Are you anti-fascist?" wouldn't answer it. I mean, it's not hard.
I doubt you and I agree enough about who the fascists are in modern-day America to make an answer to that question worthwhile, and besides that, my position on fascists isn't the topic of the thread, your (general you, I have no idea if you personally identify with Antifa or not) dead Antifa comrade is.

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 07-14-2019 at 11:24 PM.
  #80  
Old 07-14-2019, 11:31 PM
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I doubt you and I agree enough about who the fascists are in modern-day America to make an answer to that question worthwhile, and besides that, my position on fascists isn't the topic of the thread, your (general you, I have no idea if you personally identify with Antifa or not) dead Antifa comrade is.
In other words, you won't answer a direct question.
  #81  
Old 07-14-2019, 11:38 PM
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I doubt you and I agree enough about who the fascists are in modern-day America to make an answer to that question worthwhile, and besides that, my position on fascists isn't the topic of the thread, your (general you, I have no idea if you personally identify with Antifa or not) dead Antifa comrade is.
Please, oh please. DO tell us your definition of fascist/fascism, who you think ARE fascist, and how you identify. I'll post a non pit thread for you to ignore shortly.

https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...0#post21750700
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  #82  
Old 07-14-2019, 11:42 PM
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In other words, you won't answer a direct question.
Not one as vague and nebulous as that. To too many on the Left, "fascist" is just the latest smear for everyone they don't like.
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Old 07-14-2019, 11:48 PM
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By this logic, if you are anti- the pro-life side (in abortion), are you pro-death?
That analogy doesn't work, since antifa actually opposes fascism, while the so-called pro-life movement isn't "pro-life" at all; they are anti-woman.
  #84  
Old 07-15-2019, 12:51 AM
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That analogy doesn't work, since antifa actually opposes fascism, while the so-called pro-life movement isn't "pro-life" at all; they are anti-woman.
Antifa aren’t truly anti-fascist. They use violence to advance their political ideology. They might not be fascists but they mimic the methods of illiberal factions and are dangerous as well as dishonest and cowardly.
  #85  
Old 07-15-2019, 01:07 AM
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From my understanding, this freakin' nutter is no more a paid-up member of Antifa as a lone Muslim nutter yelling Allah Akbah during an attack is an Isis-trained terrorist.

That is not to diminish the seriousness of the attack, but it really seems to be stretching it to include this person in some sort of structured organisation called Antifa.
  #86  
Old 07-15-2019, 02:50 AM
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Antifa aren’t truly anti-fascist. They use violence to advance their political ideology.
So what? Plenty of political factions good and bad use violence to advance their ideology, that's hardly something unique to fascism. Nazi Germany was destroyed with violence, not peaceful protest.
  #87  
Old 07-15-2019, 02:55 AM
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In other words, you won't answer a direct question.
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
Not one as vague and nebulous as that.
Lets have a look at that vague and nebulous question again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by manson1972 View Post
I'd like to see an answer to this question.

Are you, HurricaneDitka, anti-fascist or not?
  #88  
Old 07-15-2019, 03:16 AM
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From my understanding, this freakin' nutter is no more a paid-up member of Antifa as a lone Muslim nutter yelling Allah Akbah during an attack is an Isis-trained terrorist.
My only quibble with this is I regularly hear that there is no formal structure or organization to antifa. If there is no "governing organization" then there is no guide saying who is or is not an antifa member other than self identification and expressing sympathies consistent with prior self identified antifa groups publicly expressed sentiments.
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  #89  
Old 07-15-2019, 03:30 AM
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Lets have a look at that vague and nebulous question again.
I suspect the real problem here isn't that the question is "vague and nebulous", because it's completely straightforward. I suspect the real problem is that answering it poses certain major difficulties for HurricaneDitka that he would much prefer to avoid.
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Old 07-15-2019, 03:57 AM
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My only quibble with this is I regularly hear that there is no formal structure or organization to antifa. If there is no "governing organization" then there is no guide saying who is or is not an antifa member other than self identification and expressing sympathies consistent with prior self identified antifa groups publicly expressed sentiments.
In other words, there's really no such thing as (A)ntifa then. I'm pretty anti fascist just as a general political thing because y'know, fascism is pretty abhorrent and all. But does that mean if I choose to demonstrate at some rally or whatever that I am a representative of the Antifa 'movement' that doesn't actually exist?

  #91  
Old 07-15-2019, 04:54 AM
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The shithead was a wife-beater. Can people stop defending him now?
  #92  
Old 07-15-2019, 05:23 AM
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Originally Posted by wolfpup View Post
I suspect the real problem here isn't that the question is "vague and nebulous", because it's completely straightforward. I suspect the real problem is that answering it poses certain major difficulties for HurricaneDitka that he would much prefer to avoid.
Exactly, if he answers "yes" then by his own logic he is also Antifa since he is anti-fascist, if he answers "no" then he's pro-fascist.
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Old 07-15-2019, 05:37 AM
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I missed the part where people were defending the guy. Was there another thread for that?
  #94  
Old 07-15-2019, 05:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Magiver View Post
Nothing has changed except the party affiliation of the President.
... and this
Quote:
The Secretary shall issue new policy guidance to all Department of Homeland Security personnel regarding the appropriate and consistent use of lawful detention authority under the INA, including the termination of the practice commonly known as “catch and release,” whereby aliens are routinely released in the United States shortly after their apprehension for violations of immigration law.
But besides that, nothing at all has changed, right?
  #95  
Old 07-15-2019, 06:55 AM
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Antifa aren’t truly anti-fascist. They use violence to advance their political ideology. They might not be fascists but they mimic the methods of illiberal factions and are dangerous as well as dishonest and cowardly.
That is, after all, the definition of "fascist": people who use violence to advance their political ideology.

And a person who attacks what he sees as a concentration camp, in broad daylight, knowing that he risks his life doing so, is cowardly.

Good show, octopus.

Last edited by Left Hand of Dorkness; 07-15-2019 at 06:56 AM.
  #96  
Old 07-15-2019, 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Derleth View Post
The shithead was a wife-beater. Can people stop defending him now?
Lefists across the internet have been eulogizing him, calling him "comrade" and telling him to "rest in power" when it was already known that he was a domestic terrorist. Why would his history of domestic violence change their attitudes about him?
  #97  
Old 07-15-2019, 07:28 AM
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There used to be plenty of violent antifascists in, say, 1920s Germany. They were called "Communists".
  #98  
Old 07-15-2019, 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Derleth View Post
The shithead was a wife-beater. Can people stop defending him now?
Can people stop defending the separation of families and incarceration of immigrants under deplorable conditions?

The main difference here is that even this dude's staunchest defenders would admit that beating his wife is a bad thing that he shouldn't have done.

The Orange Asshole's defenders think that locking up little kids in cages is A fucking OK. So, yeah, tell us again that people should stop defending a guy who was accused of hitting his wife.
  #99  
Old 07-15-2019, 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Cheesesteak View Post
Can people stop defending the separation of families and incarceration of immigrants under deplorable conditions?

The main difference here is that even this dude's staunchest defenders would admit that beating his wife is a bad thing that he shouldn't have done.

The Orange Asshole's defenders think that locking up little kids in cages is A fucking OK. So, yeah, tell us again that people should stop defending a guy who was accused of hitting his wife.
See Derleth, they don't care.
  #100  
Old 07-15-2019, 07:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
Lefists across the internet have been eulogizing him, calling him "comrade" and telling him to "rest in power" when it was already known that he was a domestic terrorist. Why would his history of domestic violence change their attitudes about him?
Hold up. HurricaneDitka, I just want to be clear. You've accepted as a standard of proof of a crime that someone has denied committing the crime? You don't even have to hear the victim accuse them of a crime, you just have to hear that they have denied an accusation, and you accept that they're guilty of whatever they've denied?

Is this something you accept for all crimes, or just crimes supposedly committed by leftists?
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