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  #34651  
Old 07-18-2019, 06:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Banquet Bear View Post
...I read this post. And a few seconds later I clicked a link off a tweet to this: the day 20,000 American Nazis Descended Upon New York City.
Check out the lovely Betsy Ross flags behind the stage...

Last edited by MrDibble; 07-18-2019 at 06:10 AM.
  #34652  
Old 07-18-2019, 06:44 AM
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You have a lot more faith in Americans than I do. That's a credit to your faith in humanity, but it may also end up being terribly naive.

Eh, it's not so much that I have faith in humanity ; it's that I have to else I'll go (more) insane.



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Again, probably a difference in the level of cynicism. I think there are only two viable solutions. One is a wave of national violence or global conflict that results in something once again approximating the post-war peace (well, mostly peace) we enjoyed after WWII. Another is the slow, steady building of votes from the ground up. Guess which one I fear is the only realistic option.

In the meantime, rather than the circus of an impeachment, the best option appears to be the one that's currently being employed - keep the pressure up on all his enablers and toadies. Several are in prison and others are hiding. He himself is feeling the pressure. Bring all that filth to light, as has been done to this point. It's not flashy or dramatic, but it's producing results.
I don't think it's an either/or. But more importantly, I don't believe diligent, sensible, steady grinding out of the limelight suffices. Like it or not, and for good or ill, people react a lot more to fire-and-brimstone orators lighting a fire in their belly. Sincerity in politics is admittedly rarer than ugliness among baby seals ; but we remember those guys - and sometimes their idealism (...or just rhetorical prowess) even achieves results.
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Last edited by Kobal2; 07-18-2019 at 06:44 AM.
  #34653  
Old 07-18-2019, 07:56 AM
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A failed impeachment may embolden Trump voters who may have otherwise stayed at home. It may also cause anti-Trump voters who may have come out to vote to stay at home instead. .
Failure to hold Trump accountable for impeachable offenses may embolden Trump voters who may have otherwise stayed at home. It may also cause anti-Trump voters who may have come out to vote to stay at home instead.

Democrats should stop worrying about what Trumptards might think, and do the right thing.
  #34654  
Old 07-18-2019, 08:04 AM
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A failed impeachment may embolden Trump voters who may have otherwise stayed at home. It may also cause anti-Trump voters who may have come out to vote to stay at home instead.
I don't buy either of these. One of my axioms of politics is this: Republican voters ALWAYS turn out to vote EVERY SINGLE TIME. They will vote for their tribe come hell or high water. They cannot be energized because they always are energized.

I don't buy that the opposition will be demobilized by a failed impeachment. The hearings will put it all out there. For many people, all they know about the Mueller Report was what Donald's personal lawyer summed up in his disgraceful four page book report. Putting hearings on television every day will move the needle.
  #34655  
Old 07-18-2019, 08:20 AM
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The rally was 40,000 people, and Dear Leader Trump himself composed the theme music and choreographed the 100 Llama dance troupe.
I first read that as a one-L lama and thought, there's no way they would put 100 peaceniks-of-color on stage with him. Then I saw the second L and realized that 100 woolly-headed pack animals sounded more realistic.
  #34656  
Old 07-18-2019, 08:26 AM
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I first read that as a one-L lama and thought, there's no way they would put 100 peaceniks-of-color on stage with him. Then I saw the second L and realized that 100 woolly-headed pack animals sounded more realistic.
At least with llamas, the wool is outside the head.

And why aren't the lamestream media reporting how he fed the 450,000 attendees with five loaves and two fishes?
  #34657  
Old 07-18-2019, 08:51 AM
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The hearings will put it all out there. For many people, all they know about the Mueller Report was what Donald's personal lawyer summed up in his disgraceful four page book report. Putting hearings on television every day will move the needle.
And this is where the disconnect is.

Mueller is set to testify in front of Congress soon. That did not require impeachment proceedings. What exactly is an impeachment now, in July 2019, itself going to add to this testimony save possibly a distraction with the other rigamarole that occurs?

I'm not against taking action, but it has to make sense.

What, exactly, is the right thing? An almost purely symbolic gesture that may or may not mobilize some people? The tedious, boring work that is already going on that may or may not turn some people off by how frustratingly slowly it goes?

We have this pretense that the "right" thing (however you define this) and the effective thing are one and the same. Are they? Is the perfect (impeachment, followed by removal) the enemy of the good (delay impeachment, keep sending flunkies to jail, eat away bit by bit)? If I could magically guarantee that the impeachment process would have negative consequences, would that symbolic stand still be worth it? Apparently so, according to some posters, for the enervating effect it would have on the American public and worldwide.

But again, it's not Impeachment Now or Bust. The 'Bust' includes impeachment later, continued prosecutions, and hearings.

The only example we have is Nixon. No matter how we remember it now, 50 years after the fact, it did literally take years to bring him down. The process played out in the boring, tedious manner of investigations and slowly chipping away at the corruption. It wasn't via the impeachment process. By the point impeachment became viable, the writing was already on the wall. One problem is that it's even worse now. The Republicans are even more intransigent now than then (recall several of them still backed Nixon back then and in the decades after).

For whatever reason, we recall it taking much less time and being a much less tortured, political process than it actually was.

Last edited by Great Antibob; 07-18-2019 at 08:51 AM.
  #34658  
Old 07-18-2019, 09:19 AM
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You're right Antibob that the process took a long time to play out back in the '70s. The difference is that that was one crime and a coverup, whereas this is an on-going and ever-accelerating dismantling of our society and our form of governance.

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 07-18-2019 at 09:20 AM.
  #34659  
Old 07-18-2019, 09:31 AM
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I would also point out that *right now* is appropriate because of several hard-hitting, emotional news items hitting on multiple fronts - Epstein + chilling images from the camps + Trump dropping all pretense and being Just Racist, Akshully (and his supporters in tow). There's an outrage mine there, or at least there oughta be, that will have long simmered down come January. And, y'know, that shit is wrong *now* so it should be denounced now.

I suppose one can count on Trump to keep being consistently awful all year 'round, but that's kind of the point. Plus waiting strikes me as more nakedly political : "you didn't say anything then, why do you say something now I wonder ? Any particular, electionyear reason ? But OK, let's talk principled stands !" .
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  #34660  
Old 07-18-2019, 10:23 AM
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In an Oval Office meeting this morning, a Rohingya man asked Trump if there was any plan to help them. Trump asked, "and where is that exactly?"

https://twitter.com/AmarAmarasingam/...62664144011265

Maybe next time let's elected the qualified, experienced woman, eh?
  #34661  
Old 07-18-2019, 10:45 AM
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In an Oval Office meeting this morning, a Rohingya man asked Trump if there was any plan to help them. Trump asked, "and where is that exactly?"

https://twitter.com/AmarAmarasingam/...62664144011265

Maybe next time let's elected the qualified, experienced woman, eh?
B-b-b-but her emails!!
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  #34662  
Old 07-18-2019, 11:34 AM
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At least with llamas, the wool is outside the head.

And why aren't the lamestream media reporting how he fed the 450,000 attendees with five loaves and two fishes?
Because that's fake news. He fed them with five Big Macs and two Meat Lover's personal pizzas!
  #34663  
Old 07-18-2019, 11:35 AM
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In an Oval Office meeting this morning, a Rohingya man asked Trump if there was any plan to help them. Trump asked, "and where is that exactly?"

https://twitter.com/AmarAmarasingam/...62664144011265

Maybe next time let's elected the qualified, experienced woman, eh?
Ah, it's just in some shithole country no one cares about, amirite?
  #34664  
Old 07-18-2019, 12:15 PM
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Individual 1 repeated the calumny that Ilhan Omar married her brother.
https://www.businessinsider.com/trum...nter-us-2019-7
  #34665  
Old 07-18-2019, 12:40 PM
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Individual 1 repeated the calumny that Ilhan Omar married her brother.
https://www.businessinsider.com/trum...nter-us-2019-7
I'd advise against getting too defensive towards Omar on that one. The information that Omar can't delete is all conducive to the brother hypothesis and the information which is purported to have been deleted, if faked, would have required professional photo shoots, professional photo manipulation, and professional graphic design to pull off. Given that this is supposed to have been pulled off by some crazy right-wing blogger, not the CIA, and that the story does originate out of her country of birth, not the right wing web, I'd expect to get egg on my face by standing too close to her.

The more the Democrats defend Omar, the greater the chance that they take a severe political hit if the evidence comes in. That evidence does seem relatively likely to come in.
  #34666  
Old 07-18-2019, 12:57 PM
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Individual 1 repeated the calumny that Ilhan Omar married her brother.
https://www.businessinsider.com/trum...nter-us-2019-7
Why arent we just taking LBJs advice and publicly calling out the short-fingered vulgarian for being a Pig Fucker? Make the bastard deny it.

Of course, these days, wed have Lindsey Graham defending the fucking of pigs as a sacred American pastime.
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  #34667  
Old 07-18-2019, 01:03 PM
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I'd advise against getting too defensive towards Omar on that one. The information that Omar can't delete is all conducive to the brother hypothesis and the information which is purported to have been deleted, if faked, would have required professional photo shoots, professional photo manipulation, and professional graphic design to pull off. Given that this is supposed to have been pulled off by some crazy right-wing blogger, not the CIA, and that the story does originate out of her country of birth, not the right wing web, I'd expect to get egg on my face by standing too close to her.

The more the Democrats defend Omar, the greater the chance that they take a severe political hit if the evidence comes in. That evidence does seem relatively likely to come in.
Want to bet?
  #34668  
Old 07-18-2019, 01:04 PM
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Because LBJ was (and, fair is fair, by all accounts also had) a huge dick. Don't fight dirty. Just fight harder. Just fight at all.
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  #34669  
Old 07-18-2019, 01:12 PM
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the information which is purported to have been deleted, if faked, would have required professional photo shoots, professional photo manipulation, and professional graphic design to pull off
WTF? If the evidence was deleted (and thus, by definition, unavailable for examination), how the hell can anyone assess the level of chicanery required to falsify it?

Oh. Wait. This isn't evidence that was deleted; it's evidence that is purported to have been deleted. (Presumably, because the evidence that would show whether or not the evidence was deleted was itself deleted. Purportedly.)

My brain hurts.
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  #34670  
Old 07-18-2019, 01:13 PM
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If anything, personally a complete failure to impeach (especially if due to Republican obstructing), or impeachement passing but doing diddly squat (which I'm aware it wouldn't) would get me off my arse to vote in a hurry. Whereas the opposition just doing ladeeda (but deploring, but there's nothing to do, and...; or worse posturing but taking no risk whatsoever) would be a lot more discouraging.
What is even more discouraging to me is the idea that the Democratic base is made up of people who are so fired up against Trump that the demand that he be impeached right this instant ready! fire! aim! regardless of the political reality or consequences, but then a year and a half down the road when actually given a chance to personally ensure his removal from office in a way that will actually succeed, will stay at home and sulk because their feeling were hurt.
  #34671  
Old 07-18-2019, 01:17 PM
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Because LBJ was (and, fair is fair, by all accounts also had) a huge dick. Don't fight dirty. Just fight harder. Just fight at all.
The "B" stood for "Big".
  #34672  
Old 07-18-2019, 01:26 PM
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I'd advise against getting too defensive towards Omar on that one. The information that Omar can't delete is all conducive to the brother hypothesis and the information which is purported to have been deleted, if faked, would have required professional photo shoots, professional photo manipulation, and professional graphic design to pull off. Given that this is supposed to have been pulled off by some crazy right-wing blogger, not the CIA, and that the story does originate out of her country of birth, not the right wing web, I'd expect to get egg on my face by standing too close to her.

The more the Democrats defend Omar, the greater the chance that they take a severe political hit if the evidence comes in. That evidence does seem relatively likely to come in.
Snopes and other such sites have looked over the available evidence. The supposed marriage doesn't make much sense as a way to get into the country. Exactly what it was suppose to have accomplished doesn't appear reasonable:

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/il...marry-brother/

https://www.truthorfiction.com/there...d-her-brother/

The only sites supporting the idea -- surprise! -- are right-wing sites.
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Last edited by CalMeacham; 07-18-2019 at 01:30 PM.
  #34673  
Old 07-18-2019, 02:18 PM
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Snopes and other such sites have looked over the available evidence. The supposed marriage doesn't make much sense as a way to get into the country. Exactly what it was suppose to have accomplished doesn't appear reasonable:

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/il...marry-brother/

https://www.truthorfiction.com/there...d-her-brother/

The only sites supporting the idea -- surprise! -- are right-wing sites.
I'm not right wing. I support the idea:

https://wp.me/pLjYm-cK

I may well be wrong, but I'd say that there's something fishy there, whether it's brotherness or something else (polygamy, etc.)

The evidence, if faked, is too good a fake for a crazy blogger to generate and too good to generate without risking jail time or civil liability.

If you haven't looked at it because of the source, you're setting yourself up for failure.

It could certainly be manufactured and those guys are going to be sued for every last penny at any moment. I am not all knowing. But, I'm not saying they're right. I'm simply advising caution.
  #34674  
Old 07-18-2019, 02:37 PM
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By the way, here was my official Mueller Report prediction:

https://publius2point0.wordpress.com...er-prediction/
  #34675  
Old 07-18-2019, 03:02 PM
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The "B" stood for "Big".
Subtle!
  #34676  
Old 07-18-2019, 03:23 PM
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I'd advise against getting too defensive towards Omar on that one. The information that Omar can't delete is all conducive to the brother hypothesis and the information which is purported to have been deleted, if faked, would have required professional photo shoots, professional photo manipulation, and professional graphic design to pull off. Given that this is supposed to have been pulled off by some crazy right-wing blogger, not the CIA, and that the story does originate out of her country of birth, not the right wing web, I'd expect to get egg on my face by standing too close to her.

The more the Democrats defend Omar, the greater the chance that they take a severe political hit if the evidence comes in. That evidence does seem relatively likely to come in.
Where is this evidence? What, in fact, is it? At this stage, I'm not impressed by document forgery or even photographic manipulation -- I've seen very convincing results generated by talented amateurs.
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  #34677  
Old 07-18-2019, 03:55 PM
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Would anyone here blame a Jew who forged documents to escape Nazi Germany? However she got here, she's doing a heck of a job being here.

Last edited by elucidator; 07-18-2019 at 03:59 PM. Reason: Malform follows malfunction.
  #34678  
Old 07-18-2019, 04:18 PM
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Where is this evidence? What, in fact, is it? At this stage, I'm not impressed by document forgery or even photographic manipulation -- I've seen very convincing results generated by talented amateurs.
That's not how it works.

Deep fake can do some very specific things like swapping out a person's face or generating a fake face. It can't (currently) be used to generate full scenes, replete with hospital bands with text, hospital gowns, etc. and to do so without introducing some funkiness. And that still only gives you a photo, even if it was within the realm of technical capability. But with actual current technology, you would have to hold a real photo shoot. If you're a good photographer, sure, you can do it.

Now that you have that photo, you still have to create a fake Instagram screenshot. That's a different set of skills from creating a nice photo. It's not as easy as taking a shot of a Instagram and swapping out the content. Getting the fonts, the font sizes, the spacing, etc. is an immensurate PITA and that's if you even have clear documentation to lay out what the requirements are. Reverse engineering it is an additional PITA. You basically need to be a graphic designer to do it well.

Now, granted, you can hijack the full display of the website itself and swap text in and out of the HTML (e.g., by downloading it), but you would need to be fairly technical to realize that you can do such a thing and then proceed to do it.

But then you still need to scan through the followers, see who leaves comments, see what sorts of comments they write, how they write, etc. and copy that. You have to be a sleuth and a writer.

And all of that, together, to create a unified whole that passes a sniff test requires being meticulous and organized.

We're assuming that it's a fake because, clearly, an insane, right-wing crank is going to also be an organized, resourceful, polymath?

All of which is still ignoring that all documentary evidence available, that we know isn't forged, supports the narrative that she was always with her current husband, was never separated from him, and that the brother-husband only ever lived with the both of them for a couple of months. That's supported by various forms submitted by the three of them during the time period and a near contemporaneous interview with her to that effect.

And all of which is still ignoring that it would be insaaaanely easy for Omar to disprove all of this. All she would need to do is show some records and receipts from the time that she and her husband were living together. And all that she would need to do to win a few free $100k is take the information falsifiers to court. Instagram's internal logs could destroy them in just a few seconds. We're not talking a giant contentious legal battle. It really would just be free money.

You can call anything you want fake and deny its reality. But it really don't look fake and the part where it's clear that it's real says that Omar is lying about something.
  #34679  
Old 07-18-2019, 04:20 PM
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Would anyone here blame a Jew who forged documents to escape Nazi Germany? However she got here, she's doing a heck of a job being here.
https://www.thenation.com/article/in...tten-genocide/

Her family was part of the Barre government.

What job has the job title, "Teacher of teachers"?

If you're an actual professor in teaching, you would say, "Professor of teaching at Mogadishu University" not "teacher of teachers". Where did he teach teachers?

Last edited by Sage Rat; 07-18-2019 at 04:24 PM.
  #34680  
Old 07-18-2019, 04:24 PM
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That I was ! You can put a notch on your crystal ball
Im not an expert on the science of optics, but my intuition is that a notch in a crystal ball isnt going to to ANYTHING to improve the clarity of the outcome one perceives.
  #34681  
Old 07-18-2019, 04:30 PM
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At least with llamas, the wool is outside the head.

And why aren't the lamestream media reporting how he fed the 450,000 attendees with five loaves and two fishes?
And isnt it a little convenient that the support staff just happened to have 144 baskets on hand to collect the leftovers in?
  #34682  
Old 07-18-2019, 04:48 PM
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....What job has the job title, "Teacher of teachers"?

If you're an actual professor in teaching, you would say, "Professor of teaching at Mogadishu University" not "teacher of teachers". Where did he teach teachers?
I am always pleased when I can answer a question promptly, without hesitation or doubt.

I have no idea.
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  #34683  
Old 07-18-2019, 04:53 PM
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He also learned some decent Somali, I might note:

https://alphanewsmn.com/investigatio...rried-brother/
  #34684  
Old 07-18-2019, 05:26 PM
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I'm not right wing. I support the idea:

Then you are unbelievably stupid.
  #34685  
Old 07-18-2019, 06:00 PM
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Then you are unbelievably stupid.
\_(ツ)_/

I recommend caution - nothing more and nothing less. Up to you all. It's your necks. My party is too small for it to matter if we misstep.

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  #34686  
Old 07-18-2019, 07:31 PM
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https://www.thenation.com/article/in...tten-genocide/

Her family was part of the Barre government.

What job has the job title, "Teacher of teachers"?

If you're an actual professor in teaching, you would say, "Professor of teaching at Mogadishu University" not "teacher of teachers". Where did he teach teachers?
Do you think "teacher of teachers" is a more or less real job title than "master of fortune"?
  #34687  
Old 07-18-2019, 07:37 PM
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He also learned some decent Somali, I might note:

https://alphanewsmn.com/investigatio...rried-brother/
Have anything other than a three year old post from a GOP communications specialist?
  #34688  
Old 07-18-2019, 07:39 PM
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Border control agents held US citizen children at Chicago's O'Hare airport, refusing to release them till their undocumented parents came to get them.
https://www.wbez.org/shows/wbez-news...-fd7b0419e913?
  #34689  
Old 07-18-2019, 08:43 PM
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If you haven't looked at it because of the source, you're setting yourself up for failure.
Life is too short to look at every bit of nonsensical "proof" that JFK was shot from a UFO parked on the grassy knoll.

Quote:
It could certainly be manufactured and those guys are going to be sued for every last penny at any moment.
Personally, I'm hoping for something more like Buzz Aldrin's approach.
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  #34690  
Old 07-18-2019, 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Sage Rat View Post
\_(ツ)_/

I recommend caution - nothing more and nothing less. Up to you all. It's your necks. My party is too small for it to matter if we misstep.

Actually, you do not recommend caution. A cautious view would be one that accepts two facts: 1-Omar's brother is already, by virtue of being her brother, an immediate family member and therefore faking up a marriage to have him become an immediate family members does not do anything, and 2-anyone pushing this lame and absolutely bigoted conspiracy theory needs to have some damned good proof to be taken seriously.

You're pushing it, your protestations notwithstanding. Actually, you're JAQing off to it.
  #34691  
Old 07-18-2019, 10:09 PM
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The Individual 1 campaign is literally selling plastic straws to stick it to the liberals.
https://twitter.com/yashar/status/1152036339283443712
  #34692  
Old 07-18-2019, 10:18 PM
Walken After Midnight is offline
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The Individual 1 campaign is literally selling plastic straws to stick it to the liberals.
https://twitter.com/yashar/status/1152036339283443712
$15 for 10 straws? They must be making a fortune off of Trump followers.

And why are they accusing paper straws of being "liberal"?
  #34693  
Old 07-18-2019, 10:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Walken After Midnight View Post
$15 for 10 straws? They must be making a fortune off of Trump followers.

And why are they accusing paper straws of being "liberal"?
Because they are more environmentally friendly. And since liberals want to protect the environment it is the patriotic duty of every red blooded American do do what he can to destroy it. If seals don't choke on plastic than the socialists win.
  #34694  
Old 07-18-2019, 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Walken After Midnight View Post
$15 for 10 straws? They must be making a fortune off of Trump followers.

And why are they accusing paper straws of being "liberal"?
Some environmentalists are pushing for plastic straws to be banned or phased out because they end up floating in the ocean. I think some jurisdictions have banned them. Anyway one alternative is paper straws. So, some environmentalists oppose plastic straws, therefore plastic straws are fucking awesome and paper straws are for soyboys. I think that's the extent of their thinking, such as it is.
  #34695  
Old 07-18-2019, 10:37 PM
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The Cohen info dump shows that Hope Hicks may have lied to the House committee.
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/...t-dump-1422149
  #34696  
Old 07-18-2019, 10:41 PM
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Can we get them to replace some coal plants with nuclear to 'stick it to the liberals'? B cause that would be awesome

(though on the other hand ... can we trust the safety standards of a nuclear plant funded by trumpistas? Maybe if it gets built within 5k of Mar a Lago)

ETA: IRT the straw thing, obviously

Last edited by Aspidistra; 07-18-2019 at 10:42 PM.
  #34697  
Old 07-18-2019, 10:49 PM
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The Cohen info dump shows that Hope Hicks may have lied to the House committee.
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/...t-dump-1422149
She might end up in jail. From the article:
Quote:
"Looks like Hope Hicks lied during Congressional investigation when we at @HouseJudiciary interviewed her," tweeted Rep. Ted Lieu (D-Calif.), who sits on the judiciary panel. "That's two felonies: Perjury & Obstruction of Justice. Hicks consulted with lawyers throughout her interview. Did @TheJusticeDept or @WhiteHouse lawyers know she was lying?"

Added Bradley Moss, a Washington-based national security attorney, Im going to be surprised if there isnt a 1001 violation referral for Hope Hicks by the end of tomorrow. It appears rather clear she lied to Congress about the Stormy Daniels saga. He was referring to the federal statute prohibiting material false statements.
Ted Lieu's "Did @TheJusticeDept or @WhiteHouse lawyers know she was lying?" question is a thread that needs pulling.
  #34698  
Old 07-18-2019, 10:58 PM
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Because they are more environmentally friendly. And since liberals want to protect the environment it is the patriotic duty of every red blooded American do do what he can to destroy it. If seals don't choke on plastic than the socialists win.
Bite the ends off a piece of licorice and use that. If drinking straws are a political statement, I guess that puts me in the Silly Party. I used to do that even before plastic straws were a known menace to society.
  #34699  
Old 07-18-2019, 11:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Robot Arm View Post
Bite the ends off a piece of licorice and use that. If drinking straws are a political statement, I guess that puts me in the Silly Party. I used to do that even before plastic straws were a known menace to society.
There's a British cookie you can use to sip your tea with, I can't remember which one.
  #34700  
Old 07-18-2019, 11:15 PM
galen ubal is offline
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There's a British cookie you can use to sip your tea with, I can't remember which one.
Tim Tams.
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