Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #51  
Old 09-11-2019, 11:21 AM
Shodan is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Milky Way Galaxy
Posts: 39,963
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manda JO View Post
Will that kid be better when he comes back in a week?
Will the other kids be better if they are evacuated from the classroom whenever he starts throwing chairs? Will the other kids be better with an extra week of classroom time where nobody throws chairs, or without it?

Regards,
Shodan
  #52  
Old 09-11-2019, 11:24 AM
Czarcasm's Avatar
Czarcasm is offline
Charter Member
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 62,530
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
Will the other kids be better if they are evacuated from the classroom whenever he starts throwing chairs? Will the other kids be better with an extra week of classroom time where nobody throws chairs, or without it?
Do you have an answer for the question that was actually asked...or do you not care where that kid ends up?
  #53  
Old 09-11-2019, 11:27 AM
Manda JO is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Posts: 11,436
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
Will the other kids be better if they are evacuated from the classroom whenever he starts throwing chairs? Will the other kids be better with an extra week of classroom time where nobody throws chairs, or without it?

Regards,
Shodan
Throwing chairs is still grounds for suspension.

But no, if my kid was in a class with someone who threw chairs, I'd expect a more permanent solution than there just being a week or two a month without him. That's not dealing with the problem, nor is it making my kid safe.
  #54  
Old 09-11-2019, 11:28 AM
Velocity is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 15,373
I agree with Chronos about ISS. Not only do disruptive students view out-of-school suspension as a relief and reward, but they are even less likely to want to come back to formal education once they'd been out for a while. ISS would force them to keep their education going, and takes away any "fun" of being suspended.
  #55  
Old 09-11-2019, 11:29 AM
Kearsen1 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Austin
Posts: 306
Quote:
Originally Posted by Czarcasm View Post
Holy crap! Kearsen1 has solved the problem of racism!

The sarcasm and eye rolling does not offer or address the actual problem, but instead tries to cover up or otherwise go around the facts that you'd rather not address. If racist teachers were an ACTUAL problem, they would be dealt with, quickly. Since this seems to not be the case, whom else would you like to blame other than the person or the people responsible for that person (ie, the parents...)?

See Shodan's post above for better insight. (I can hope right??!)
  #56  
Old 09-11-2019, 11:30 AM
Richard Parker is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Manhattan
Posts: 12,153
You can spot a lot of bad social science on race by looking at what they try to control for in their model. If they are controlling for a factor that is itself the causal mechanism being identified by anti-racists or is highly covariate with race, then you know they aren't doing careful social science.

That's certainly true of the Wright study Shodan cites. If race plays a role in student discipline, then in any given student cohort, those who have experienced discipline will be disproportionately students of color. If you then control for prior disciplinary problems when examining disciplinary decisions in later grades--as that study does--then, voila!, you'll find little or no racial bias in the subsequent disciplinary decisions.

There's a pretty large literature on this stuff at this point, so if you are really trying to follow where the social science goes there are much better research designs out there.
  #57  
Old 09-11-2019, 11:32 AM
Kearsen1 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Austin
Posts: 306
Quote:
Originally Posted by Czarcasm View Post
Do you have an answer for the question that was actually asked...or do you not care where that kid ends up?
Personal

Responsibility.

I will not be responsible for kids that act poorly if their own parents can't be arsed to follow up or otherwise deal with them. Unless you are willing to strip these parent's of their parental rights and make them charges of the state? Are you?

Schools are not and SHOULD NOT be a place where everyone gets ribbon, regardless of bad behavior or ability. It is a place where you get the OPPORTUNITY to learn. END
  #58  
Old 09-11-2019, 11:33 AM
Czarcasm's Avatar
Czarcasm is offline
Charter Member
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 62,530
Quote:
Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
I agree with Chronos about ISS. Not only do disruptive students view out-of-school suspension as a relief and reward, but they are even less likely to want to come back to formal education once they'd been out for a while. ISS would force them to keep their education going, and takes away any "fun" of being suspended.
I would prefer this be used, also.
  #59  
Old 09-11-2019, 11:35 AM
Kearsen1 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Austin
Posts: 306
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Parker View Post
You can spot a lot of bad social science on race by looking at what they try to control for in their model. If they are controlling for a factor that is itself the causal mechanism being identified by anti-racists or is highly covariate with race, then you know they aren't doing careful social science.

That's certainly true of the Wright study Shodan cites. If race plays a role in student discipline, then in any given student cohort, those who have experienced discipline will be disproportionately students of color. If you then control for prior disciplinary problems when examining disciplinary decisions in later grades--as that study does--then, voila!, you'll find little or no racial bias in the subsequent disciplinary decisions.

There's a pretty large literature on this stuff at this point, so if you are really trying to follow where the social science goes there are much better research designs out there.
Again, if racist teachers were the giant 800 lb gorilla in the room, do you not think it would be addressed? By the schools who fear civil cases? By the teachers union who fear bad press? By the actual schools who would not like to be seen as harboring racist teachers?
I am not saying it doesn't happen. I am sure that it does, racism is not eradicated from todays world but what it is, is no longer acceptable and would be dealt with quickly.
  #60  
Old 09-11-2019, 11:37 AM
Czarcasm's Avatar
Czarcasm is offline
Charter Member
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 62,530
The original question: "Will that kid be better when he comes back in a week?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kearsen1 View Post
Personal

Responsibility.

I will not be responsible for kids that act poorly if their own parents can't be arsed to follow up or otherwise deal with them. Unless you are willing to strip these parent's of their parental rights and make them charges of the state? Are you?

Schools are not and SHOULD NOT be a place where everyone gets ribbon, regardless of bad behavior or ability. It is a place where you get the OPPORTUNITY to learn. END
So, is your answer:
1. The kid will be better when he comes back in a week.
2. The kid will not be better when he comes back in a week.
3. I don't care about that kid.
  #61  
Old 09-11-2019, 11:41 AM
manson1972's Avatar
manson1972 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 11,977
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kearsen1 View Post
I am not saying it doesn't happen. I am sure that it does, racism is not eradicated from todays world but what it is, is no longer acceptable and would be dealt with quickly.
You are correct. We should use the successful efforts to eradicate racism from the nations' police forces as the model to follow to eliminate racism in the teaching profession.
  #62  
Old 09-11-2019, 11:45 AM
Shodan is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Milky Way Galaxy
Posts: 39,963
That is not even the point. The study found that, if you controlled for past behavior, there was no correlation between race and excess suspensions.

Regards,
Shodan
  #63  
Old 09-11-2019, 11:47 AM
Richard Parker is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Manhattan
Posts: 12,153
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kearsen1 View Post
Again, if racist teachers were the giant 800 lb gorilla in the room, do you not think it would be addressed? By the schools who fear civil cases? By the teachers union who fear bad press? By the actual schools who would not like to be seen as harboring racist teachers?
I am not saying it doesn't happen. I am sure that it does, racism is not eradicated from todays world but what it is, is no longer acceptable and would be dealt with quickly.
No, this isn't true. You can take it from a practicing civil rights lawyer. There is very little litigation over racially disparate discipline, for a whole range of reasons. Mainly, no single student subject to unfair discipline has any significant damages. Also, student data is subject to pretty strict privacy protections that judges are reluctant to override.

Schools and teacher unions in many places are aware of the problem and accept that it means they need to change. In many places, they have led or joined the very reforms being criticized in this thread.

Obviously, like most examples of racism in America, there is almost certainly two things at work: there is some actual difference in behavior that results from the other social effects of racism before kids get to school and outside school, and there is also some difference in how that behavior is disciplined. The same is true in policing and courts and many other contexts. So it isn't right to blame solely teacher bias, but no one is doing that.
  #64  
Old 09-11-2019, 11:50 AM
iiandyiiii's Avatar
iiandyiiii is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 35,547
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
That is not even the point. The study found that, if you controlled for past behavior, there was no correlation between race and excess suspensions.

Regards,
Shodan
No it didn't -- it controlled for past disciplinary statistics. If the past disciplinary reports were partly due to racism, then this doesn't tell us anything.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 09-11-2019 at 11:50 AM.
  #65  
Old 09-11-2019, 11:54 AM
RickJay is offline
Charter Jays Fan
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Oakville, Canada
Posts: 41,587
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasmine View Post
For a long time the trend in public education, especially in urban areas, has been to hold students less and less responsible and accountable for their actions. At this point, students are being taught from kindergarten through 12th grade that they can show up late 100 times a year, not do work, swear at teachers, walk out of classrooms, destroy school property, and get into physical fights without any real consequences whatsoever. I think we are doing them a tremendous disservice because, when they graduate and walk out the door, we expect them to be "responsible adults" who get a job, show up to work on time, treat their bosses and fellow workers with respect, and do a diligent job at performing their tasks. Our public schools seem to be doing everything they can to achieve the opposite results.
They've been saying this for fifty years, if not more. Is this true? Is it more true than it was before? Do you have any evidence this is true or is it just "darned kids today"?
__________________
Providing useless posts since 1999!
  #66  
Old 09-11-2019, 11:59 AM
Bryan Ekers's Avatar
Bryan Ekers is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Montreal, QC
Posts: 59,228
Well, in the old days, the teacher could just beat the kid.
__________________
Don't worry about the end of Inception. We have top men working on it right now. Top. Men.
  #67  
Old 09-11-2019, 12:14 PM
fedman is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manda JO View Post
As a teacher of nearly two decades, I will say it is absolutely the case that teachers commonly see misbehavior on the part of black students as criminal and dangerous, when similar behavior by white students is dismissed as routine stuff. I will also say that I have known several teachers over the years who seemed to go out of their way to bully and antagonize black students. There are REAL problems with adults wanting a sort of fanning subservience from black students they don't demand from anyone else.

I also think that it'd be more honest to just kick a kid out than suspend them over and over again, until they are hopelessly lost and they drop out on their own. How on earth is missing school a punishment for a struggling kid? As a teacher, missing students always created more work for me than anything. And the suspended child comes back even less engaged and more disruptive.

Finally, it's a bit of a false dilemma. There are ways to discipline a child besides suspending them.
my fiancé is Black teacher at all-Black inner city school, and tales about students engaged in insubordination behavior, not to mention assaults by parents when students are disciplined, tells me it is a racial problem. It seems that many students are not motivated to value education by parents and peers.
  #68  
Old 09-11-2019, 12:16 PM
Llama Llogophile is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: 50% chord point
Posts: 4,063
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
I agree there are racist teachers. How to deal with them? Well obviously "diversity training" as we all know has little effect and often makes things worse. They cant be fired because of tenure laws.
Irrespective of the main discussion at hand, this is absolutely not true and I’m sick of hearing it from people who don’t know what they’re talking about.

Tenure does not prevent teachers from being fired, it merely guarantees a form of due process.

Kindly tattoo that on your forehead backwards and read it in the mirror every day. When I was a teacher the ‘tenure canard’, as I think of it, was often one of the first things people asked me about. Or rather, they usually asserted it. Wrongly. And it was a near foolproof sign that the person I was talking to simply had ideological reasons for disliking teachers, education in general or workers’ protections and had no actual understanding of what tenure means in public education.

It just means there has to be evidence of wrongdoing. It has to be documented. Teachers cannot be removed capriciously on a whim. I assure you, a racist teacher can be fired if they behave inappropriately. They can be fired for much less. Stop saying teachers cannot be fired because of tenure. It’s just not true.
  #69  
Old 09-11-2019, 12:17 PM
Richard Parker is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Manhattan
Posts: 12,153
Quote:
Originally Posted by fedman View Post
my fiancé is Black teacher at all-Black inner city school, and tales about students engaged in insubordination behavior, not to mention assaults by parents when students are disciplined, tells me it is a racial problem. It seems that many students are not motivated to value education by parents and peers.
Think about what it means to start this paragraph with "all-Black inner city school" and end it with "not motivated to value education by parents and peers."
  #70  
Old 09-11-2019, 12:17 PM
HurricaneDitka is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 14,499
Quote:
Originally Posted by fedman View Post
my fiancé is Black teacher at all-Black inner city school, and tales about students engaged in insubordination behavior, not to mention assaults by parents when students are disciplined, tells me it is a racial problem. It seems that many students are not motivated to value education by parents and peers.
Quote:
In the United States, acting white is a pejorative term, usually applied to black people, which refers to a person's perceived betrayal of their culture by assuming the social expectations of white society.[1][2] Success in education in particular (depending on one's cultural background) can be seen as a form of "selling out" by being disloyal to one's culture.[2]

The term is controversial, and its precise meaning is hard to define.[1] Some minority students are discouraged from achieving in school by the negative prejudices of ethnic peers; such a view has been expressed in articles in The New York Times, Time magazine, and The Wall Street Journal—and by public figures and academics across the political spectrum.[2]
source
  #71  
Old 09-11-2019, 12:20 PM
fedman is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by elfkin477 View Post
This line implies that it's only OSS.

I have no problems with the bill. You really should not be kicking kids out of school as a punishment, especially a 5 to 14-year-old.
if you read the news, you know that 13-14 year olds have access to guns
  #72  
Old 09-11-2019, 12:33 PM
Kearsen1 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Austin
Posts: 306
Quote:
Originally Posted by Czarcasm View Post
The original question: "Will that kid be better when he comes back in a week?So, is your answer:
1. The kid will be better when he comes back in a week.
2. The kid will not be better when he comes back in a week.
3. I don't care about that kid.
If you get hung up on THAT (assuming he is not your own child) kid, you just failed the other 20 ish kids in the class.

I get that you want to not leave anyone behind, it is simply unrealistic and fantasy land thinking to believe that you will not leave some kids who don't care, parent's don't care or they are detrimental to the rest of the class. Move them if need be, ISS, special classes I don't really care what you do with them if you feel the need to help them. If you really want to help someone in that bad a situation, take them away from their parents and provide a better support structure for them. Keeping them in class does NO ONE any favors.
  #73  
Old 09-11-2019, 12:34 PM
Kearsen1 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Austin
Posts: 306
Quote:
Originally Posted by manson1972 View Post
You are correct. We should use the successful efforts to eradicate racism from the nations' police forces as the model to follow to eliminate racism in the teaching profession.
I AM correct, the same could be done there. GOTCHA! (or not quite as the case may be)
  #74  
Old 09-11-2019, 12:35 PM
Miller's Avatar
Miller is offline
Sith Mod
Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Bear Flag Republic
Posts: 44,369
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kearsen1 View Post
Personal

Responsibility.
This is where the conservative concept of personal responsibility just completely breaks down for me. Yes, there are situations where it's appropriate to say, "You fucked up your life, you have to deal with the consequences on your own." It's never the case where it's appropriate to say that to a nine year old. Children aren't capable of exercising personal responsibility, not to the extent we expect it from adults.

So, when you've got a nine year old who's acting out in class, because they've got a troubled home life, or disinterested parents, or whatever, it doesn't make any sense to me to start talking about personal responsibility. It's a kid. They're not capable of taking personal responsibility.

And yeah, I get that you're talking about parents. I'm not. I'm talking about the kids.

Quote:
I will not be responsible for kids that act poorly if their own parents can't be arsed to follow up or otherwise deal with them. Unless you are willing to strip these parent's of their parental rights and make them charges of the state? Are you?
Depends. Given the following scenarios:

A) Child is left with parents, receives no outside assistence if parenting is substandard.
B) Child is taken from parents and put in an orphanage if parenting is substandard.
C) Child is left with parents and a social support network is put in place to address potential shortfalls in parenting.

Which one results in the best outcome for the child? That's the solution I support.

Sounds to me like "C" is the winner, there.

Quote:
Schools are not and SHOULD NOT be a place where everyone gets ribbon, regardless of bad behavior or ability. It is a place where you get the OPPORTUNITY to learn. END
Strawman. "Not kicking kids out of school for minor disciplinary issues" is not remotely the same as "Everyone gets a reward regardless of performance."
  #75  
Old 09-11-2019, 12:41 PM
Kearsen1 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Austin
Posts: 306
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miller View Post
This is where the conservative concept of personal responsibility just completely breaks down for me. Yes, there are situations where it's appropriate to say, "You fucked up your life, you have to deal with the consequences on your own." It's never the case where it's appropriate to say that to a nine year old. Children aren't capable of exercising personal responsibility, not to the extent we expect it from adults.

So, when you've got a nine year old who's acting out in class, because they've got a troubled home life, or disinterested parents, or whatever, it doesn't make any sense to me to start talking about personal responsibility. It's a kid. They're not capable of taking personal responsibility.

And yeah, I get that you're talking about parents. I'm not. I'm talking about the kids.



Depends. Given the following scenarios:

A) Child is left with parents, receives no outside assistence if parenting is substandard.
B) Child is taken from parents and put in an orphanage if parenting is substandard.
C) Child is left with parents and a social support network is put in place to address potential shortfalls in parenting.

Which one results in the best outcome for the child? That's the solution I support.

Sounds to me like "C" is the winner, there.



Strawman. "Not kicking kids out of school for minor disciplinary issues" is not remotely the same as "Everyone gets a reward regardless of performance."
Miller, I am not advocating the 9 yr old having personal responsibility. I am advocating his/her parent's having it. THEY are responsible for their child.
Adoptions can benefit. Even wards of the state can benefit (if you assume that governmental employees provide real benefits). If you start off by saying adoptive parents are worse, state employees are worse than a child's natural parents' then sure you end up choosing C. That isn't a proven commodity though (and if it is, CORRECT that)
Having teachers needing to be both parents AND teach a curriculum is not fair to the teachers ( OR all the other students)

"Minor disciplinary issues" being the primary driver here. What do those constitute?

Last edited by Kearsen1; 09-11-2019 at 12:42 PM.
  #76  
Old 09-11-2019, 12:42 PM
Urbanredneck is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 7,793
Quote:
Originally Posted by Llama Llogophile View Post
Irrespective of the main discussion at hand, this is absolutely not true and I’m sick of hearing it from people who don’t know what they’re talking about.

Tenure does not prevent teachers from being fired, it merely guarantees a form of due process.


It just means there has to be evidence of wrongdoing. It has to be documented. Teachers cannot be removed capriciously on a whim. I assure you, a racist teacher can be fired if they behave inappropriately. They can be fired for much less. Stop saying teachers cannot be fired because of tenure. It’s just not true.
Ok, you got me. I typed that without stopping to think. I meant no disrespect.

Yes, I am aware teachers, even with tenure, can and do get fired. Your right it does require more work on the part of administrators which can be difficult since often principals change. Its often easier to just get the teacher to switch schools or move them into another position.
  #77  
Old 09-11-2019, 12:45 PM
Kearsen1 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Austin
Posts: 306
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Parker View Post
Think about what it means to start this paragraph with "all-Black inner city school" and end it with "not motivated to value education by parents and peers."

Does it mean that it's racist or that this is a very real cultural issue that needs to be dealt with?
  #78  
Old 09-11-2019, 12:57 PM
Urbanredneck is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 7,793
One idea is an alternative high school. In our district it is called Horizons Academy.

In a neighboring district it is called Blue Valley Academy.

When I was student teaching the "bad" kids could go to class but had to get a form signed in each class that they 1. came to class on time. 2. brought materials. 3. worked. 4. didnt cause trouble. This form was reviewed by staff and sent home to parents every week. If that didnt work out it was ISS all day and if that didnt work out then you had suspensions out of school. Kids that get OSS can still take work home.

So in that case, if a kid wanted to get kicked out, they had to really try and do it. Some did. But they were not allowed to run the school like we see in some areas.
  #79  
Old 09-11-2019, 01:03 PM
Richard Parker is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Manhattan
Posts: 12,153
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kearsen1 View Post
Does it mean that it's racist or that this is a very real cultural issue that needs to be dealt with?
I'm saying that skepticism about the value of education is probably more prevalent among people whose kids still have to attend racially segregated schools in 2019. I'm not convinced there is a big disparity at the aggregate level. But at the individual level when I have encountered this attitude about education, it has been an attitude of resignation. Often, quite justified resignation about the prospects for poor black boys in certain zip codes in America regardless of what kind of grades they get in math. Chances are that if your kid attends a school with no white students then your life has all kinds of other shit going on--much of it related to the same racist forces that make it so that such schools still exist in America in 2019.

You can call that a cultural issue if you like. But the solutions involve fighting racism.

Last edited by Richard Parker; 09-11-2019 at 01:08 PM.
  #80  
Old 09-11-2019, 01:04 PM
Czarcasm's Avatar
Czarcasm is offline
Charter Member
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 62,530
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
One idea is an alternative high school. In our district it is called Horizons Academy.

In a neighboring district it is called Blue Valley Academy.

When I was student teaching the "bad" kids could go to class but had to get a form signed in each class that they 1. came to class on time. 2. brought materials. 3. worked. 4. didnt cause trouble. This form was reviewed by staff and sent home to parents every week. If that didnt work out it was ISS all day and if that didnt work out then you had suspensions out of school. Kids that get OSS can still take work home.

So in that case, if a kid wanted to get kicked out, they had to really try and do it. Some did. But they were not allowed to run the school like we see in some areas.
Good idea...but is it feasible in a district that struggles with funding?
  #81  
Old 09-11-2019, 01:13 PM
Urbanredneck is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 7,793
Quote:
Originally Posted by Czarcasm View Post
Good idea...but is it feasible in a district that struggles with funding?
Oh I agree alot of this comes down to funding. In my expereince I've never seen a school have an ISS room run by a regular teacher or even had special training.

True story: In one HS I worked at they had ISS but no funds for a teacher. They didnt even have a room set aide for it. The best they could do was assign one coach to have the kids in a little used room part time.

In another HS they also didnt have an ISS teacher but had a different teacher every hour cover the room. Even if it was a sub.

In most schools the ISS teacher is paid about the same rate as a para - or about half what a regular teacher makes.

Then when you have just ONE ISS room in a school of 500 kids, what happens if you have 50 kids in it?

ISS is usually a joke.
  #82  
Old 09-11-2019, 01:16 PM
Urbanredneck is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 7,793
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Parker View Post

You can call that a cultural issue if you like. But the solutions involve fighting racism.
Ok, we get it. Racism is wrong.

But how does even the most devoted anti-racist teacher deal with kids that want to walk in and out of their room, just want to look at their phones, disrupt constantly, and refuse to do any work?
  #83  
Old 09-11-2019, 01:23 PM
Richard Parker is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Manhattan
Posts: 12,153
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
Ok, we get it. Racism is wrong.
I wasn't reminding anyone that racism is wrong. I was pointing out that what is often attributed by conservatives to "culture" is just the refraction of racism. That is a point I am not so sure you do get.

I would also add that the whole idea that black parents in the aggregate care less about education than whites has very little empirical support. It appears to just be a racist trope.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
But how does even the most devoted anti-racist teacher deal with kids that want to walk in and out of their room, just want to look at their phones, disrupt constantly, and refuse to do any work?
What you certainly don't do is just write that kid off as coming from a bad culture, or decide that we can just kick those kids out of school because it is someone else's error of personal responsibility.

What you do is try to figure out why that behavior is happening and solve it. Sometimes, often even, you can't. You can only work at the margins. But I can tell you some things that really help. One is smaller classes. Another is ample, full-time social workers and counselors. Another is the funding and training for restorative justice practices. All of those have something in common: $$$. I can't speak for every state, but in most states, per-pupil spending is lower at schools that have more disciplinary problems. It should be the opposite.
  #84  
Old 09-11-2019, 01:24 PM
Kearsen1 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Austin
Posts: 306
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Parker View Post
I'm saying that skepticism about the value of education is probably more prevalent among people whose kids still have to attend racially segregated schools in 2019. I'm not convinced there is a big disparity at the aggregate level. But at the individual level when I have encountered this attitude about education, it has been an attitude of resignation. Often, quite justified resignation about the prospects for poor black boys in certain zip codes in America regardless of what kind of grades they get in math. Chances are that if your kid attends a school with no white students then your life has all kinds of other shit going on--much of it related to the same racist forces that make it so that such schools still exist in America in 2019.

You can call that a cultural issue if you like. But the solutions involve fighting racism.
IN absolute terms, what racist forces keep (segregated) inner city kids in the inner city?
  #85  
Old 09-11-2019, 01:26 PM
HurricaneDitka is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 14,499
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kearsen1 View Post
IN absolute terms, what racist forces keep (segregated) inner city kids in the inner city?
More to the point: What keeps them telling each other that it's "acting white" to value and strive for educational achievements.
  #86  
Old 09-11-2019, 01:29 PM
Richard Parker is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Manhattan
Posts: 12,153
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kearsen1 View Post
IN absolute terms, what racist forces keep (segregated) inner city kids in the inner city?
The big ones are:
  • Housing segregation and discrimination
  • Transportation networks designed during the height of white flight
  • Household wealth disparities
  • Racially-segregated job markets

These are both the product of past racist practices and ongoing racist practices.

For a while one hypothesis was just that people self-segregate because they prefer living near people like them. But it turns out if you give people vouchers to move and help them overcome discriminatory housing processes then they pretty readily move to places with much higher economic and educational opportunity.
  #87  
Old 09-11-2019, 01:30 PM
Kearsen1 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Austin
Posts: 306
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Parker View Post
I wasn't reminding anyone that racism is wrong. I was pointing out that what is often attributed by conservatives to "culture" is just the refraction of racism. That is a point I am not so sure you do get.

I would also add that the whole idea that black parents in the aggregate care less about education than whites has very little empirical support. It appears to just be a racist trope.



What you certainly don't do is just write that kid off as coming from a bad culture, or decide that we can just kick those kids out of school because it is someone else's error of personal responsibility.

What you do is try to figure out why that behavior is happening and solve it. Sometimes, often even, you can't. You can only work at the margins. But I can tell you some things that really help. One is smaller classes. Another is ample, full-time social workers and counselors. Another is the funding and training for restorative justice practices. All of those have something in common: $$$. I can't speak for every state, but in most states, per-pupil spending is lower at schools that have more disciplinary problems. It should be the opposite.
The biggest step you can make to help children is get their parents involved. Not notified, not called, not text, INVOLVED. They can care all they want about their children, if they don't 'care' enough to be involved, daily, then that child will undoubtedly do worse than an involved parent's child.
Schools WANT kids in school! Why? Because that is how funding is given.

Teachers on the whole want to help children, they sure as hell ain't there for the big bucks.
I had teachers that would bend over backwards to help me if I showed even a modicum of effort and interest. But no effort and no interest? They can't and shouldn't be nannies. They are teachers.

OPPORTUNITY is there.
OUTCOME not so much.
  #88  
Old 09-11-2019, 01:33 PM
Richard Parker is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Manhattan
Posts: 12,153
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kearsen1 View Post
The biggest step you can make to help children is get their parents involved.
Suppose I showed you that, empirically, black parents care more about education than white parents and report higher rates of wanting to be involved in their schools. But then you observe that, in fact, white parents are disproportionately involved. What would you conclude the cause is?
  #89  
Old 09-11-2019, 01:36 PM
Czarcasm's Avatar
Czarcasm is offline
Charter Member
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 62,530
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Parker View Post
Suppose I showed you that, empirically, black parents care more about education than white parents and report higher rates of wanting to be involved in their schools. But then you observe that, in fact, white parents are disproportionately involved. What would you conclude the cause is?
That it is harder to be involved when you are working two or three jobs to put food on the table?
  #90  
Old 09-11-2019, 01:37 PM
Kearsen1 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Austin
Posts: 306
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Parker View Post
The big ones are:
  • Housing segregation and discrimination
  • Transportation networks designed during the height of white flight
  • Household wealth disparities
  • Racially-segregated job markets

These are both the product of past racist practices and ongoing racist practices.

For a while one hypothesis was just that people self-segregate because they prefer living near people like them. But it turns out if you give people vouchers to move and help them overcome discriminatory housing processes then they pretty readily move to places with much higher economic and educational opportunity.
I know of no such thing as housing segregation and discrimination based upon what? Color? Because as far as I know, the color of money is king (assuming you have a decent credit history and not a bad rap as far as damage to previous rental property etc)
No clue on your second point
Household wealth isn't racist …
What job markets are racially segregated?

I am really trying to understand how these issues are primarily racially motivated, but all I see is class. The poor downtrodden folks can't be asked to pick themselves up. If they can't pick themselves up, how can society expect them to pick the kids (That they shouldn't have had) up as well.

Vouchers might well help a certain section of those folks, the ones who actually do care. What about the rest of them? Can't kick them out of school, what do you think those schools turn into?
They turn into parking lots because the ones that don't care won't go to school.
  #91  
Old 09-11-2019, 01:39 PM
Kearsen1 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Austin
Posts: 306
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Parker View Post
Suppose I showed you that, empirically, black parents care more about education than white parents and report higher rates of wanting to be involved in their schools. But then you observe that, in fact, white parents are disproportionately involved. What would you conclude the cause is?
Can you parse that for me?
White parents are disproportionally involved in which direction?
They are more or less involved?
  #92  
Old 09-11-2019, 01:39 PM
Richard Parker is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Manhattan
Posts: 12,153
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kearsen1 View Post
I am really trying to understand how these issues are primarily racially motivated, but all I see is class.
Have you tried reading any books? A great place to start would be this one.
  #93  
Old 09-11-2019, 01:40 PM
Richard Parker is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Manhattan
Posts: 12,153
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kearsen1 View Post
Can you parse that for me?
White parents are disproportionally involved in which direction?
They are more or less involved?
More.
  #94  
Old 09-11-2019, 01:40 PM
Kearsen1 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Austin
Posts: 306
Quote:
Originally Posted by Czarcasm View Post
That it is harder to be involved when you are working two or three jobs to put food on the table?

Racist? See this is where the wheels come right the fuck off. Not everything can be blamed on racism.

Help the poor, THAT will help with most issues that a whole lot of folks today are screaming racist about.
  #95  
Old 09-11-2019, 01:41 PM
Kearsen1 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Austin
Posts: 306
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Parker View Post
More.
Then I would say that the black families don't really care all that much regardless of what they answer to on a questionnaire. You MAKE the time for your kids. THEY are YOUR responsibility
  #96  
Old 09-11-2019, 01:43 PM
Richard Parker is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Manhattan
Posts: 12,153
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kearsen1 View Post
Then I would say that the black families don't really care all that much regardless of what they answer to on a questionnaire. You MAKE the time for your kids. THEY are YOUR responsibility
I think this response tells us a lot about how you view these problems. Thanks.

I have other reading recommendations if you're interested in other perspectives.
  #97  
Old 09-11-2019, 01:44 PM
Kearsen1 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Austin
Posts: 306
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Parker View Post
I think this response tells us a lot about how you view these problems. Thanks.

I have other reading recommendations if you're interested in other perspectives.
I do like to read so throw me some. My perspective is simple, my kids, my responsibility. I have 5 of them.

Last edited by Kearsen1; 09-11-2019 at 01:45 PM.
  #98  
Old 09-11-2019, 01:46 PM
HurricaneDitka is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 14,499
Quote:
Originally Posted by Czarcasm View Post
That it is harder to be involved when you are working two or three jobs to put food on the table?
Very few people are "working two or three jobs to put food on the table".
  #99  
Old 09-11-2019, 01:48 PM
iiandyiiii's Avatar
iiandyiiii is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 35,547
~1850

'Obviously, those slaves don't care much about freedom. If they did, they'd be free. It's about PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.'

~1890

'What, you're complaining? After the government took responsibility and freed you? And you're still complaining that the only work you can get is in a field, for pennies, with constant abuse, and you can only live in a leaky, filthy shack? Take responsibility for your own life! It's about PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.'

~1950

'My god, you're still complaining? After all these years, you still haven't taken PERSONAL RESPONSIBILIITY? If you really wanted to vote, you'd just do what it takes to vote. Obviously you don't care enough.'
  #100  
Old 09-11-2019, 01:50 PM
Richard Parker is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Manhattan
Posts: 12,153
My recommendations here: https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...3&postcount=38
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:06 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright © 2019 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017