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  #17051  
Old 09-28-2014, 07:48 PM
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He's a religious man. Plenty of very smart and successful people put their brains aside when it comes to religious teachings. It didn't affect his performance as a surgeon, it won't affect his performance as President.

But you do bring up a good point. Thinking logically is more important than just arriving at the right answer. I wonder how many Democratic politicians actually believe that climate change is occurring because they understand the science, or do they believe it's occurring because it fits in with their worldview and desired agenda?
  #17052  
Old 09-28-2014, 07:53 PM
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I wonder how many Democratic politicians actually believe that climate change is occurring because they understand the science, or do they believe it's occurring because it fits in with their worldview and desired agenda?
Or they can weigh the professional conclusions of 98% of CLIMATOLOGISTS who agree climate change is the result of human activity. I don't have to be a scientist or a true believer; I just have to be able to read.
  #17053  
Old 09-28-2014, 08:10 PM
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Given their statements, I doubt they are reading those conclusions. I have yet to hear actual climatologists say that civilization will end, the Earth will be uninhabitable, or that we will all burn to death. They aren't thinking. They are believing what they want to believe.

Or let's look at fracking. Will Democrats ever acknowledge that the science is settled about the safety of fracking?

Last edited by adaher; 09-28-2014 at 08:10 PM.
  #17054  
Old 09-28-2014, 08:32 PM
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Given that fracking is destroying large parts of the western US, polluting the water and causing untold damage to the land - yes. It's settled that fracking is fucking stupid.

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php...ater_pollution

Last edited by silenus; 09-28-2014 at 08:35 PM.
  #17055  
Old 09-28-2014, 10:24 PM
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Given their statements, I doubt they are reading those conclusions. I have yet to hear actual climatologists say that civilization will end, the Earth will be uninhabitable, or that we will all burn to death. They aren't thinking. They are believing what they want to believe.
Believing that climate change is happening does not mean that all do follow the straw man you are making here.

Again, what some Democratic politicians say does not reach the levels you are claiming here in order for you to make a caricature, once again here is Barry Bickmore, scientist at BYU, Republican, and conservative:

http://bbickmore.wordpress.com/2010/...-bash-al-gore/
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Since I took the plunge and started publicly criticizing certain climate change contrarians, notably certain Utah politicians and Christopher Monckton, people on the other side of the fence have often asked, “Why don’t you criticize Al Gore for all his misrepresentations?” The implication is that I, and others like me, are being intellectually dishonest by selectively criticizing only those who are pushing for doing nothing about climate change, while ignoring “alarmists” who exaggerate.

If you really want to fathom why scientists like me typically don’t get all worked up about Al Gore, you have to understand a couple things from the outset.

1. Scientists expect journalists and popularizers to get a few things wrong when explaining scientific work.

...

2. Gore’s documentary, “An Inconvenient Truth”, is not that bad, frankly.

Yes, there are a couple errors. Yes, in a few cases he focuses on “worst-case scenarios,” rather than communicating the full range of risk. But the fact is that he got the most important points right, and the problems aren’t that serious from the perspective of most scientists who have examined the movie. Tim Lambert collected reactions from a number of scientists about a list of nine alleged errors in the movie, for example. While they didn’t always agree about the status of individual “errors,” there was general agreement that the list was too long. In most cases, it was questionable whether they were really errors at all.

In the cases where Gore presented “worst-case scenarios” instead of depicting the full range of risk, try to look at it from the perspective of the scientists involved. The vast majority of scientists are saying, “Human-induced climate change is very likely to be a very big problem, and somewhat likely to be a very, very big problem.” Are they supposed to get all worked up when a popularizer like Gore goes around saying it will be a very, very big problem? The reaction of most scientists has been exactly what it should be. “Well, maybe he overstated his case somewhat, but he got the gist right.”
Contrast that with Republican politicians that in hearings claim that "God is out there, and will not allow this to happen" like Inhofe, or read the bible in a hearing like another Republican rep did to claim that God will not allow the earth to flood, so therefore nothing will happen; and so the harm that their party will produce by us not being more prepared will come.

Last edited by GIGObuster; 09-28-2014 at 10:25 PM.
  #17056  
Old 09-28-2014, 11:29 PM
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So if Cecil came out as a far right Republican, you'd think he was a moron? And please, let's be real, you're trying to portray Carson as some kind of savant. Carson is a brilliant man whose only fault is that he hasn't spent 40 years immersing himself in politics. If he chooses to actually do something in politics, he'll smarten up on the issues really quick. Whereas most politicians, even the "smart" ones, will never be anything more than politicians. To a politician, moving up in the world is becoming a lobbyist.
A smart asshole is still just an asshole. Carson is a science denier, which puts him down there with the anti-vax crowd, who are also assholes.
  #17057  
Old 09-28-2014, 11:38 PM
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He actually had to use science in his job. Hell, Carson figured out new ways to save lives. Comparing Carson unfavorably to a politician who mouths the right words is like comparing a Medal of Honor war veteran to a Call of Duty champion. Politicians play at this stuff. Carson advanced the science of neurosurgery.

All this is is prejudice against Christians.
  #17058  
Old 09-29-2014, 12:09 AM
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So if Cecil came out as a far right Republican, you'd think he was a moron?
I would. The far right is characterized by stupid. The Earth is 6000 years old. Revenue can never be raised to meet expenses, no matter how regressive the tax scheme becomes. Corporations are people, and so are fetuses. Money doesn't corrupt politics. America is meant to be governed as a theocracy. Straight white men are more important than any other category of human. Marijuana should remain a Schedule I drug. Invading Iraq because... terrorism!... was a good idea. The poor don't deserve healthcare because they're lazy, nor do they deserve a minimum wage. Systemic unemployment is an individual problem. The mentally ill ought to roam the streets. Young black men exist to be shot if some moron "feels" threatened. Global warming is a hoax; rising CO2 levels can never be honestly addressed. Voting hours and conditions need to be restricted. White collar criminals can never be jailed.

It goes on and on. Far right Republican = moron.
  #17059  
Old 09-29-2014, 12:16 AM
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He actually had to use science in his job. Hell, Carson figured out new ways to save lives. Comparing Carson unfavorably to a politician who mouths the right words is like comparing a Medal of Honor war veteran to a Call of Duty champion. Politicians play at this stuff. Carson advanced the science of neurosurgery.

All this is is prejudice against Christians.
Not from me. From me, it's prejudice against Republicans. Which is entirely justified, by the way.
  #17060  
Old 09-29-2014, 12:26 AM
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All this is is prejudice against Christians.
The lion's share of christians (so to speak) are not biblical literalists. Most christians believe, accept or tolerate evolution, only a small minority are literalists. Most christians are rather like normal people, so much so that we often never even realize that they are christians.

Carson is an edge case. As a SDA, he is of necessity a literalist. He touts a flat tax, which would make things much worse in this country. Most of his ideas about how things ought to be are shallow, naïve, short-sighted and potentially dangerous. The fact that his thinks his ideas are good ones is all the evidence we need to determine that he is a dumbfuck. He should stay in the OR where he can contribute positively to people.
  #17061  
Old 09-29-2014, 01:18 AM
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He was also smart enough to realize when it was time to quit. He's getting a bit old, hands aren't as steady as they used to be. Since he can't do actual things anymore, why not politics, the most unproductive profession on earth?

Heck, it goes beyond unproductive, it's actually parasitical. If he can change that, he'll have done what few politicians can boast of: actually accomplishing something.

But anyway, good luck portraying the foremost neurosurgeon in the country as a dumbass. If the Democrats have a career politician trying to say that, who will the voters believe? The neurosurgeon, or the career politician who wasn't even a very good lawyer?

Last edited by adaher; 09-29-2014 at 01:20 AM.
  #17062  
Old 09-29-2014, 01:38 AM
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Curious how you are creaming your knickers over Carson after earlier expressing a yearning for a Gen-X president. If a 63-y/o dude is not a Boomer (of the kind that have been making a mess of the country for nigh on a quarter century), what is he?
  #17063  
Old 09-29-2014, 01:42 AM
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  #17064  
Old 09-29-2014, 01:43 AM
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But anyway, good luck portraying the foremost neurosurgeon in the country as a dumbass.
Nice appeal to authority fallacy. If the guy endorses stupid positions and ideas, he is a moron. Neuroscience is very, very rarely a matter of public policy. Far right Republican = moron, even in this case.
  #17065  
Old 09-29-2014, 01:43 AM
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He was also smart enough to realize when it was time to quit. He's getting a bit old, hands aren't as steady as they used to be. Since he can't do actual things anymore, why not politics, the most unproductive profession on earth?

Heck, it goes beyond unproductive, it's actually parasitical. If he can change that, he'll have done what few politicians can boast of: actually accomplishing something.

But anyway, good luck portraying the foremost neurosurgeon in the country as a dumbass. If the Democrats have a career politician trying to say that, who will the voters believe? The neurosurgeon, or the career politician who wasn't even a very good lawyer?
Dr Seitz was also well renown and was a former president of the National Academy of Sciences, then after that he broke bad, really bad, and worked making research that found nothing wrong with smoking first when on the payroll of the tobacco companies; and then just put his name in support of the infamous Climate change denier Oregon Petition and really talked out of his ass in many editorials he made denouncing the vast majority of active climate experts.

http://climatecrocks.com/tag/dr-frederick-seitz/

So, yes, I do not need to feel lucky because I can tell you already that relying on experts outside their area of expertise is just a clear symptom that the Republicans just found a dupe on you and many other republicans that do not know logic 101 and fallacies. So the same goes with a neurosurgeon that pontificates outside their are of expertise.

Last edited by GIGObuster; 09-29-2014 at 01:47 AM.
  #17066  
Old 09-29-2014, 01:56 AM
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All this is is prejudice against Christians.
This will be good.

Are you willing to claim that Barry Bickmore, a Professor and a Mormon from BYU is not a Christian?
  #17067  
Old 09-29-2014, 01:59 AM
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Curious how you are creaming your knickers over Carson after earlier expressing a yearning for a Gen-X president. If a 63-y/o dude is not a Boomer (of the kind that have been making a mess of the country for nigh on a quarter century), what is he?
I also seem to remember posts saying that a president needs to have executive experience as the head of a state or other large organization, the better to learn how to delegate tasks and manage the vast hierarchy of people in the executive branch. I don't see anything like that in Carson's background.
  #17068  
Old 09-29-2014, 02:37 AM
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And when adaher claims that it is the Democrats who aren't thinking, one is then obligated now to post the weapons grade stupidity and lack of brains demonstrated by virtually all the Republicans in the latest Science Committee hearing.

John Stewart has the goods on the lack of elementary school knowledge and clear pride on the ignorance that the stupid republicans are willing to show on the record.

http://climatecrocks.com/2014/09/25/...rs/#more-20451
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The historic People's Climate March takes place in New York City while a House of Representatives committee struggles with the basic principles of global warming.
Struggles? A Republican declared that he does not believe in science and another does not have a clue of what melting ice on land will do to the ocean level, and all the rest of the Republicans came with more whoppers like those ones! Enough to fill weeks of the quota needed for the daily stupid Republican idea of the day.
  #17069  
Old 09-29-2014, 07:29 AM
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As a researcher in one of the soft sciences, I have noticed a tendency by some smart people to disparage our work as easy. I question this, of course- math is a lot easier than people. Anyway, it's no surprise to me that a surgeon could be talking out of his ass about politics without bothering to actually study it. Smarts aren't everything. Curiousity and a willingness to learn are.
  #17070  
Old 09-29-2014, 07:33 AM
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But anyway, good luck portraying the foremost neurosurgeon in the country as a dumbass.
Gonna need a cite that he's the "foremost neurosurgeon in the country".

And while Carson is undoubtedly a skilled physician and an intelligent man, the fact that he rejects evolution shows that he is unable to think critically about certain topics. That alone disqualifies him from high office, in my view.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 09-29-2014 at 07:35 AM.
  #17071  
Old 09-29-2014, 09:00 AM
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But anyway, good luck portraying the foremost neurosurgeon in the country as a dumbass.
30 seconds listening to Carson talk about how he'd fix the country is enough to portray him as a dumbass. High achievement in one field does not always translate to the ability to achieve in others - or to sanity. Carson has previously called Obama both a Nazi and a communist, and he's a biblical literalist. Say what you will about Obama but that's more than enough to conclude Carson is an idiot.

Remember how Mitt Romney was going to be good for America because all of his success in business? Do you want America to be run like a hospital?

ETA: Carson does have some good ideas, but he'd never dare repeat most of those if he's a Republican candidate.

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  #17072  
Old 09-29-2014, 09:20 AM
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He was also smart enough to realize when it was time to quit. He's getting a bit old, hands aren't as steady as they used to be. Since he can't do actual things anymore, why not politics, the most unproductive profession on earth?
For the moment, let's leave aside your profound ignorance about the possibility of public service ever being useful, even though your party is now so extreme in its nihilism that the concept no longer merits discussion. In fact, the most useful thing a surgeon who can no longer safely operate can do is to continue to practice as a consultant and a teacher, providing the benefits of a long and distinguished professional career to others who can carry it forward over their own careers.

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Heck, it goes beyond unproductive, it's actually parasitical.
Know what? Never mind. Just shut up. You're embarrassing.

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  #17073  
Old 09-29-2014, 10:25 AM
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He actually had to use science in his job.
Nope. He just had to follow the checklist. This is fortunate, as he is quite obviously (as proven conclusively by his spouting of creationist nonsense) incapable of understanding the basics of science.
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  #17074  
Old 09-29-2014, 10:57 AM
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Um, no, he actually pioneered new procedures. A person can be good at his job without understanding how everything works. One cannot pioneer new techniques without that knowledge, however.
  #17075  
Old 09-29-2014, 11:00 AM
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30 seconds listening to Carson talk about how he'd fix the country is enough to portray him as a dumbass. High achievement in one field does not always translate to the ability to achieve in others - or to sanity.
True about expertise in one field not applying to other fields. Something to remember when we ask politicians to legislate on subjects they don't understand. Which is er, just about everything other than regulation of lawyers(which they don't do enough of).

Sanity? Now you're marking yourself as insane. Who knew that Johns Hopkins had an insane director of neurosurgery. Does Johns Hopkins receive any federal funding? If so, shouldn't that be revisited since they appoint insane people to operate on patients and supervise others who also operate on patients?
  #17076  
Old 09-29-2014, 11:03 AM
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For the moment, let's leave aside your profound ignorance about the possibility of public service ever being useful,
What Ben Carson did was public service. There are good politicians out there, but it's not a profession that generally draws the public spirited. It's just a great way to get rich and powerful if you have no other useful talents. Ask Harry Reid. How much is he worth these days? Pretty nice given that Senators aren't paid all that much. Now Joe Biden, he's public spirited. He's been broke his entire Senate career.

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In fact, the most useful thing a surgeon who can no longer safely operate can do is to continue to practice as a consultant and a teacher, providing the benefits of a long and distinguished professional career to others who can carry it forward over their own careers.
True. A person with skills that are actually useful would be better off staying out of politics. WHereas Barack Obama and most of his Congressional allies will make money doing nothing but talking. Just like they do now.
  #17077  
Old 09-29-2014, 11:06 AM
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Um, no, he actually pioneered new procedures. A person can be good at his job without understanding how everything works. One cannot pioneer new techniques without that knowledge, however.
He's a brain surgeon, not a climatologist. His only connection to weather is if he's removing brain-clouds.
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Old 09-29-2014, 11:08 AM
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There are good politicians out there, but it's not a profession that generally draws the public spirited.
We already know how profound your ignorance is. There's really no need to continue to display it.
  #17079  
Old 09-29-2014, 11:10 AM
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Yeah, I think you're in the minority on that one. If you really believe that politics drew the public spirited, then you wouldn't be running around like your hair was on fire about campaign finance reform.
  #17080  
Old 09-29-2014, 11:10 AM
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It draws them, but then it crushes them.
  #17081  
Old 09-29-2014, 11:14 AM
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If you really believe that politics drew the public spirited, then you wouldn't be running around like your hair was on fire about campaign finance reform.
It does draw the greedy as well, yes, but usually to less-public positions that require less accountability to the voters. Your ignorance is in denying that there can be any other motive for going into government service at all. What, did you think the battle of ACA was all about getting paid off?

It's certainly easier to believe such a simpleminded view of the world, since it absolves you of any responsibility to do anything other than deplore the situation and root for your team. But it's still profound ignorance.
  #17082  
Old 09-29-2014, 11:18 AM
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No. There are some good people in the government. Lots of them, actually, just not a majority, although that's my opinion, there's no way to measure it. I've noticed something though. The good ones generally went into government after having real accomplishments outside it. Maybe they served in the military with distinction(John McCain). Maybe they ran a successful business(Mark Warner). Maybe they made a comedy show successful with their brilliant writing(Al Franken). Or perhaps they even served in government with distinction in a non-elected position(Jim Webb, Erskine Bowles). The point is, none of them NEEDED to run for office. It's the ones where running for office is their whole life that you have to watch out for. Because they need the job so badly, they will be owned by the system in short order, assuming they even wanted to avoid in the first place.
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Old 09-29-2014, 11:21 AM
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politics, the most unproductive profession on earth?

Heck, it goes beyond unproductive, it's actually parasitical.
Except for the exceptions, you now claim. Right.
  #17084  
Old 09-29-2014, 11:24 AM
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There are exceptions to every group. But the group as a unit tends to be nonproductive and parasitical on the productive part of society.

Your vision of public service is to benefit society. I agree. But what actually happens is something called "extracting rents", something which I'm sure you know about if you've studied politics 101 or even basic economics.

Last edited by adaher; 09-29-2014 at 11:25 AM.
  #17085  
Old 09-29-2014, 11:25 AM
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You're an embarrassment.
  #17086  
Old 09-29-2014, 11:31 AM
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And you need to figure out what you think. If politics is public service, we have no need for campaign finance laws. And if government is a positive good rather than a necessary evil, we don't need Constitutions limiting their powers.

So take awhile to figure out exactly what it is that you think about the role of government and the relative morality of the people who inhabit it, and get back to us.
  #17087  
Old 09-29-2014, 11:35 AM
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The world is not binary. Only the profoundly ignorant see it as such.
  #17088  
Old 09-29-2014, 11:41 AM
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And you need to figure out what you think. If politics is public service, we have no need for campaign finance laws. And if government is a positive good rather than a necessary evil, we don't need Constitutions limiting their powers.

So take awhile to figure out exactly what it is that you think about the role of government and the relative morality of the people who inhabit it, and get back to us.
What a goofy argument. You might as well say we shouldn't have police officers if we can't trust them to do their jobs without internal affairs departments and the 4th-6th Amendments.
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Old 09-29-2014, 11:41 AM
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And you need to figure out what you think. If politics is public service, we have no need for campaign finance laws. And if government is a positive good rather than a necessary evil, we don't need Constitutions limiting their powers.
What does that mean when it's at home?

Last edited by Inner Stickler; 09-29-2014 at 11:42 AM. Reason: added quote
  #17090  
Old 09-29-2014, 11:51 AM
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The world is not binary. Only the profoundly ignorant see it as such.
Then you are spreading ignorance. I argued one side, with caveats, you argued the other, with none, and said I was just wrong and you were right. That's a binary argument and you are making it.
  #17091  
Old 09-29-2014, 11:51 AM
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And you need to figure out what you think. If politics is public service, we have no need for campaign finance laws. And if government is a positive good rather than a necessary evil, we don't need Constitutions limiting their powers.
Yes, but we already have those things. I don't wish to speak for ElvisL1ves, but the message I took from his posts is that in the world as it currently exists (with campaign finance laws, et al.), politics draws those who are motivated by public service.

Hopefully, by outlawing corruption and abuses of power, we eliminate greed as a motive for politicians and public-mindedness is what's left.
  #17092  
Old 09-29-2014, 11:53 AM
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What a goofy argument. You might as well say we shouldn't have police officers if we can't trust them to do their jobs without internal affairs departments and the 4th-6th Amendments.
Did i say we shouldn't have government? No, I just argued that politicians are a special breed attracted to power, and often money, who couldn't make money in the productive sector. Without government, Harry Reid would be nobody. Ben Carson is somebody right now and if he never wins an elected office, will still be a somebody. Yet I bet Harry Reid is richer than Carson.
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Old 09-29-2014, 11:59 AM
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I don't wish to speak for ElvisL1ves, but the message I took from his posts is that in the world as it currently exists (with campaign finance laws, et al.), politics draws those who are motivated by public service.
Yes. Even campaign finance laws themselves are examples, which those motivated only by greed (as is the case in adaher's sadly-constricted worldview) would not have fought for, in fact they wouldn't even think of them. The poor guy is so profoundly ignorant that he can't even understand why ACA exists.


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Hopefully, by outlawing corruption and abuses of power, we eliminate greed as a motive for politicians and public-mindedness is what's left.
We'll never eliminate non-public-minded motivations, but we can contain them and continue to tighten those constraints.
  #17094  
Old 09-29-2014, 12:12 PM
Smapti is offline
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Originally Posted by Really Not All That Bright View Post
Remember how Mitt Romney was going to be good for America because all of his success in business? Do you want America to be run like a hospital?
Well, the government might start charging $87,000 for toilet seats, but the good news they'll let you write them a check for $300 and they'll call it even.
  #17095  
Old 09-29-2014, 12:27 PM
Morgyn is offline
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adaher is rather successfully derailing this thread into everyone trying to correct his abysmal ignorance, which is a hopeless cause. What say we ALL put him on ignore (either actually on the Ignore list or just by not responding to him) and getting back to what this thread is really about: PALATSR.

Granted, he is one and he makes it pathetically easy to laugh at him, but he's not an in-the-public-eye, written-up-in-the-media, Republican politician. This thread isn't about him or his positions, ideas, or mental malfunctions; let us not let him get in the way of the fun.

And yes, I've just added him to my Ignore list, and even if someone else quotes him in responding to any response to me he might make, I'm going to ignore him. After this post, he's being relegated to my "not worth the time or energy it takes to spit" list, and long may he remain dry.
  #17096  
Old 09-29-2014, 12:58 PM
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Over in Oklahoma, state Representative John Bennett thinks that genocide is the appropriate Kool-Aid flavor when it comes to Muslims. At least if they're living in the U.S.

Does he come out and say this? No. But his language implies it strongly when he said
Quote:
all Muslims were violent and called for removing them from the country like “a cancer” that “needs to be cut out.”
  #17097  
Old 09-29-2014, 01:43 PM
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True about expertise in one field not applying to other fields. Something to remember when we ask politicians to legislate on subjects they don't understand. Which is er, just about everything other than regulation of lawyers(which they don't do enough of).

Sanity? Now you're marking yourself as insane. Who knew that Johns Hopkins had an insane director of neurosurgery. Does Johns Hopkins receive any federal funding? If so, shouldn't that be revisited since they appoint insane people to operate on patients and supervise others who also operate on patients?
You are really only getting in the team of the dense, obtuse, dopey, imperceptive, opaque, slow on the uptake, thick, and anti-Mormon guys. (That last one is for ignoring Barry Bickmore )

Again, everyone should notice how inept you are at logic, since you did accept first that expertise should not apply to other fields then politicians and common folk should pay attention to what the related experts do say, but here you only certify that you have no clue what does accepting that implies; as Dr Seitz and others showed, they can still be great and good in a field like physics, for example, and it does not mean that the physics organization did have big issues or trouble with his related expertise when Seitz did lead their organization when he was an active researcher - This is very important to keep in mind as I have seen this misleading appeal to authority fallacy many times in the past when dealing with creationists and climate change deniers.

On top of that one should not give any credit to the ones that turn into stooges for the tobacco or fossil fuel companies.

Last edited by GIGObuster; 09-29-2014 at 01:45 PM.
  #17098  
Old 09-29-2014, 01:51 PM
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5 craziest things Ted Cruz just said at the Values Voters Summit.
  #17099  
Old 09-29-2014, 01:52 PM
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You can even be a scientist who knows the scientific method and its importance, and still be way out of your depth in another field. William Shockley got a Nobel in physics for co-inventing the transistor, but his late-in-life fascination with eugenics and racism showed he should have stayed in the semiconductor lab. But at least he wasn't a creationist like Carson.
  #17100  
Old 09-29-2014, 02:14 PM
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I agree completely. But one who is smart can learn. Wasn't that one of the reasons to vote for Barack Obama despite his lack of experience? "He's just so smart!" He's still brilliant, I guess. You just don't see much of this brilliance in the job he's doing. Maybe the same will be true of Carson. I would rather see him run for governor somewhere first. The Republicans tried to recruit him to run against Gary Peters in Michigan. But it could also just be that he wants the attention and will never really make a serious run.

But some people's accomplishments are so great that even when they are wrong, I think it's inappropriate for them to be in a thread about stupid Republicans. Carson is no idiot. I wouldn't put nuclear physicist Rush Holt in the dumbass liberal thread either. I guess even smart people say idiotic things on occasion, especially when they speak on subjects they aren't experts in. But if we acknowledge that we're all human, that everyone says dumb things, then we can concentrate on people who establish a pattern of serial stupidity and bring political discourse down. LIke Michelle Bachmann.
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