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  #551  
Old 06-12-2018, 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Chisquirrel View Post
Yeah, North Korea's not gonna buy that shit after he pulled out of the JCPOA.
I agree the chances are remote, but they might, because they've already demonstrated nuclear capabilities and long-range missile capabilities.

I don't have a crystal ball, but what I've suspected all along is that Kim would seriously consider freezing his program -- in exchange for some immediate concessions on sanctions. He doesn't agree to give up what he already has, but he agrees to stop provocative acts like detonating nukes underground and firing missiles over Japan -- in exchange for an end to sanctions. But if Trump asserts that sanctions end first, that's a non-starter, and Kim goes back to firing his missiles, and he amps up the crazy act. And make no mistake: the escalation would continue until the US agrees to end sanctions, or unless the US initiates a preemptive strike and ends up in one of the nastiest wars in the last 80 years. Those are the choices if things escalate.
  #552  
Old 06-12-2018, 08:33 PM
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"He loves his people."
He starves them and puts them in prison camps.
  #553  
Old 06-12-2018, 09:14 PM
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"He loves his people."
He starves them and puts them in prison camps.
Well, not those people. The other ones.
  #554  
Old 06-12-2018, 09:20 PM
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North Korea's state run News channel just announced that Donald agreed to lift NK sanctions.

It's a five-sentance article from Reuters. I'll just post it.

https://www.reuters.com/article/nort...rce=reddit.com


Quote:
Originally Posted by Reuters

SEOUL, June 13 (Reuters) - North Korean state media said on Wednesday U.S. President Donald Trump had agreed to lift sanctions against the North in addition to providing security guarantees in the summit with the North’s leader, Kim Jong Un, the previous day.

Trump was cited by North Korea’s official KCNA news agency as saying he made the promise after pledging to end joint military exercises with South Korea.

There was no immediate comment about sanctions from the U.S. side. (Reporting by Christine Kim Editing by Paul Tait)

Be sure to scroll down at that link to the previous newsbrief, titled, "Trump says no war games while North Korea negotiates in good faith: Fox interview".

I hope Mike Pompeo hates his life right now.
  #555  
Old 06-13-2018, 12:02 AM
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North Korea's state run News channel just announced that Donald agreed to lift NK sanctions.

It's a five-sentance article from Reuters. I'll just post it.

https://www.reuters.com/article/nort...rce=reddit.com

Be sure to scroll down at that link to the previous newsbrief, titled, "Trump says no war games while North Korea negotiates in good faith: Fox interview".

I hope Mike Pompeo hates his life right now.
I'm wondering how this is being presented to North Koreans. They have all been raised from birth to hate the US with a murderous passion. They've been told that they have to be poor and hungry because Dear Leader must have weapons to protect them from the most evil country on earth. Kim can't just change course and announce that we are all friends now. He has to play it that he is calling the shots and the US is capitulating to him or he will lose the power that he needs to make his people accept that their lives suck. I don't think Trump will be too happy to see it being presented that way but Kim really has no other choice if he wants to retain control. It's not like he can suddenly make a brainwashed, uneducated populace into productive members of society who understand how foreign policy works.
  #556  
Old 06-13-2018, 12:29 AM
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Originally Posted by aurora maire View Post
I'm wondering how this is being presented to North Koreans.
The Associated Press is here to help:
Quote:
“President Trump appreciated that an atmosphere of peace and stability was created on the Korean Peninsula and in the region, although distressed with the extreme danger of armed clash only a few months ago, thanks to the proactive peace-loving measures taken by the respected Supreme Leader from the outset of this year,” said a summary of the leaders’ summit by the North’s state-run Korean Central News Agency.
Quote:
Kim has framed the switch as a natural next step now that he has what he stresses is a credible and viable nuclear arsenal capable of keeping the U.S. at bay. The framing that he went into the summit as an equal and from a position of strength is crucial within North Korea, after enduring years of tough sanctions while it pursued its nuclear ambitions.

Kim’s vows to denuclearize were reported by state media Wednesday within that context — that Pyongyang would respond to easing of what it sees as the U.S. hostile policy against it with commensurate but gradual moves toward “the complete denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula.”

“Kim Jong Un and Trump had the shared recognition to the effect that it is important to abide by the principle of step-by-step and simultaneous action in achieving peace, stability and denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula,” KCNA reported.
Quote:
In the meantime, however, the North appears to be basking in it leader’s new found status as the most popular kid on the block.

“Singapore, the country of the epoch-making meeting much awaited by the whole world, was awash with thousands of domestic and foreign journalists and a large crowd of masses to see this day’s moment which will remain long in history,” KCNA noted.

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 06-13-2018 at 12:29 AM.
  #557  
Old 06-13-2018, 06:46 AM
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aurora maire wrote:

“He has to play it that he is calling the shots and the US is capitulating to him...”

No need to “play” anything there — the facts speak for themselves.

“It's not like he can suddenly make a brainwashed, uneducated populace into productive members of society who understand how foreign policy works.”

It’s not Kim’s job to educate Americans.
  #558  
Old 06-13-2018, 07:23 AM
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Trump says there is nothing to worry about from North Korea:
Quote:
"Everybody can now feel much safer than the day I took office. There is no longer a Nuclear Threat from North Korea. Meeting with Kim Jong Un was an interesting and very positive experience. North Korea has great potential for the future!" Trump wrote on Twitter.

North Korea also was no longer the United States' "biggest and most dangerous problem," he added.
  #559  
Old 06-13-2018, 08:07 AM
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"I hold in my hand a piece of paper ..."

"Peace for our time"

We'll see. Any details about timelines, processes, inspectors etc. You know the usual things that every other agreement like this comes with.

Last edited by yojimbo; 06-13-2018 at 08:08 AM.
  #560  
Old 06-13-2018, 08:17 AM
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Here's a pretty good take from Slate: "Trump isn’t trying to win over North Korea’s leader. He’s using him to win over you."

Quote:
Three times during his press conference, Trump was asked about North Korea’s failure to honor previous agreements in which it made similar pledges. Each time the question was asked, Trump blamed the collapse of these agreements on previous American presidents. As evidence, Trump claimed that during the summit, Kim had told him that North Korea lacked “confidence” in Trump’s predecessors. In a post-summit interview with ABC’s George Stephanopoulos, Trump said Kim had explained that “he was let down by the United States.” Far from challenging this statement, Trump used it to bolster his argument that no other American president could have worked with North Korea as Trump has. “I don’t think they honestly could have done it,” said Trump.

This is the key to understanding the Trump-Kim relationship: Trump isn’t competing with Kim, or even trying to win him over. He’s using Kim to compete for status with previous American presidents. “A lot of people are saying it’s historic,” Trump told Stephanopoulos, referring to the summit. “We’ve done something that’s very unique. Nobody’s met with the [Kim] family. … No president has, certainly.”

If Trump’s goal had been to maximize concessions from North Korea, he would have set high standards for the agreement, conveyed resolve, and kept his cards close to his vest. He has done the opposite. In the press conference, Trump blabbed about the limits of U.S. intelligence on North Korea: “probably less there than any other country.” He explained how we had detected Kim’s missile engine testing site: “We’re able to see because of the heat that it emits.”
  #561  
Old 06-13-2018, 08:56 AM
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We can see heat? Hooo, doggies! What will they come up with next? Remember Dick Tracy's two way wrist radio? Soon, you'll be able to watch bad TV and worse movies on a screen the size of a postage stamp!
  #562  
Old 06-13-2018, 09:09 AM
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They're going to make some agreement that does nothing and isn't enforceable. Trump will claim that he initiated world peace in our time. His supporters will clamor for him to win the Nobel Prize. Rational people will point out that the agreement doesn't do anything. Trump supporters will yell "fake news".
It's almost as though this was easy to predict.
  #563  
Old 06-13-2018, 09:32 AM
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Did they bring all the NK nukes back with them on Air Force One?
  #564  
Old 06-13-2018, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by aurora maire View Post
I'm wondering how this is being presented to North Koreans. They have all been raised from birth to hate the US with a murderous passion. They've been told that they have to be poor and hungry because Dear Leader must have weapons to protect them from the most evil country on earth. Kim can't just change course and announce that we are all friends now. He has to play it that he is calling the shots and the US is capitulating to him or he will lose the power that he needs to make his people accept that their lives suck. I don't think Trump will be too happy to see it being presented that way but Kim really has no other choice if he wants to retain control. It's not like he can suddenly make a brainwashed, uneducated populace into productive members of society who understand how foreign policy works.
It's been done before...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_...rendezvous.png
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  #565  
Old 06-13-2018, 09:49 AM
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They were howling for his head at the mere mention of Obama being open to talking to North Korea, but when Trump said that's what he was going to do suddenly they were all cheering him on.
Although I've come to expect Republicans to have the consistency of celery broth, this utterly predictable caca still gets under my skin— a bad place for it to be, studies have shown.
  #566  
Old 06-13-2018, 01:03 PM
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Four points of the Trump-Kim Declaration:

1. The United States and the DPRK commit to establishing new U.S.-DPRK relations in accordance with the desire of the peoples of the two countries for peace and prosperity.

2. The United States and the DPRK will join their efforts to build a lasting and stable peace regime on the Korean Peninsula.

3. Reaffirming the April 27, 2018 Panmunjom Declaration, the DPRK commits to work towards the complete denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula.

4. The United States and the DPRK commit to recovering POW/MIA remains including the immediate repatriation of those already identified.

When reporters asked if Kim was prepared to denuclearize, Trump said that they would be “starting that process very quickly.”

This isn't Iran. Iran signed NOTHING, and we gave them billions. Obama didn't even meet face to face with their leader, did he? Nope

No money is changing hands here, North Korea released prisoners without a plane full of cash. Both parties signed the document, putting their reputation in the world on the line.

Good work Mr. President.
  #567  
Old 06-13-2018, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Silver lining View Post
Four points of the Trump-Kim Declaration:

1. The United States and the DPRK commit to establishing new U.S.-DPRK relations in accordance with the desire of the peoples of the two countries for peace and prosperity.

2. The United States and the DPRK will join their efforts to build a lasting and stable peace regime on the Korean Peninsula.

3. Reaffirming the April 27, 2018 Panmunjom Declaration, the DPRK commits to work towards the complete denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula.

4. The United States and the DPRK commit to recovering POW/MIA remains including the immediate repatriation of those already identified.

When reporters asked if Kim was prepared to denuclearize, Trump said that they would be “starting that process very quickly.”

This isn't Iran. Iran signed NOTHING, and we gave them billions. Obama didn't even meet face to face with their leader, did he? Nope

No money is changing hands here, North Korea released prisoners without a plane full of cash. Both parties signed the document, putting their reputation in the world on the line.

Good work Mr. President.
Congratulations to Kim Jong Un for getting such massive concessions - effusive personal praise from the US president, the legitimacy and pageantry of the photo op and having his flags alongside the stars and stripes, and an end to US - South Korea joint military exercises, all without giving up a single thing. America gets nothing, and Kim gets much of what he's wanted for many years.

Big win for a mass murdering communist dictator.
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  #568  
Old 06-13-2018, 01:10 PM
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They have achieved their goals, which is "a seat at the table". So, in a sense, we are playing into their hands, if that is your perspective. If news reports are accurate, Trump plans on meeting with Kim Jong-un, which in the old view of these type of things, elevates him on the world stage.

What ever happened to "we don't negotiate with terrorists"?
The President of the United States has to meet with bad people all of the time. The difference here is Trump set the terms before they meet face to face. Complete denuclearization, and pressed it by saying he will quickly walk if Jon -un isn't serious, and added more by saying he won't get a second chance for this.

Trump did NOT say he'd meet with someone without unconditionally. That is what Obama said about Iran. Obama did not meet face to face with their supreme leader. He gave them a plane full of cash in exchange for hostages, and billions.

No money has changed hands here. If you want the straight dope, North Korea desires to trade and a set the table, as they sit upon an estimated 10 trillion of metals and rare minerals. Trump pressures them. I do believe they fear him a bit. Strength through peace.

Liberals if they are being honest hate nuclear weapons and should applaud Trump's efforts, yet they are not for the most part. A pity, they should hear Obama's speech in Japan when he says he wishes nations would give them up.
  #569  
Old 06-13-2018, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Silver lining View Post
Four points of the Trump-Kim Declaration:

1. The United States and the DPRK commit to establishing new U.S.-DPRK relations in accordance with the desire of the peoples of the two countries for peace and prosperity.

2. The United States and the DPRK will join their efforts to build a lasting and stable peace regime on the Korean Peninsula.

3. Reaffirming the April 27, 2018 Panmunjom Declaration, the DPRK commits to work towards the complete denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula.

4. The United States and the DPRK commit to recovering POW/MIA remains including the immediate repatriation of those already identified.

When reporters asked if Kim was prepared to denuclearize, Trump said that they would be “starting that process very quickly.”

This isn't Iran. Iran signed NOTHING, and we gave them billions. Obama didn't even meet face to face with their leader, did he? Nope

No money is changing hands here, North Korea released prisoners without a plane full of cash. Both parties signed the document, putting their reputation in the world on the line.

Good work Mr. President.
Do you know if North Korea had signed any other agreements in the past involving some other President? And if so, how did that work out?
  #570  
Old 06-13-2018, 01:28 PM
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Hint: This one promises less than they've promised before.
  #571  
Old 06-13-2018, 01:38 PM
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....he will quickly walk if Jon -un isn't serious....
Neither Il Douche or Kim can "quickly walk". A briskly paced waddle is their personal best, but no more then fifteen steps. Let it be noted that Trump has a very assertive waddle, an alpha waddle.
  #572  
Old 06-13-2018, 02:27 PM
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...No money is changing hands here...
I don't believe you. It would be completely out of the norm for North Korea to not insist on some form of compensation, even if just to cover the travel costs for the summit. From here

Quote:
Originally Posted by Washington Post
U.S. seeks discreet way to pay for Kim Jong Un’s hotel during Trump-Kim summit...
The heavily sanctioned and isolated regime has a long history of making bold monetary demands.
During the 2018 Olympics in PyeongChang, South Korea set aside $2.6 million to cover travel accommodations for a North Korean cheering squad, an art troupe and other members of the visiting delegation.
At the same Games, the International Olympic Committee paid for 22 North Korean athletes to travel to the event.
In 2014, when then-U.S. Director of National Intelligence James R. Clapper Jr. visited North Korea to retrieve two prisoners, his North Korean hosts served him an “elaborate 12-course Korean meal,” the veteran intelligence official said, but then insisted that he pay for it.
“These norms were laid in the early 2000s, when Seoul’s so-called sunshine policy took off,” said Sung-Yoon Lee, an expert on Korea at Tufts University, referring to a policy of rapprochement associated with former South Korean president Kim Dae-jung. “North Korea can build nukes and ICBMs, but claim they are too poor to pay for foreign travel costs.”
  #573  
Old 06-13-2018, 02:38 PM
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I don't believe you. It would be completely out of the norm for North Korea to not insist on some form of compensation, even if just to cover the travel costs for the summit. From here
"In 2014, when then-U.S. Director of National Intelligence James R. Clapper Jr. visited North Korea to retrieve two prisoners"

Who was President then?
  #574  
Old 06-13-2018, 02:44 PM
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Four points of the Trump-Kim Declaration:

1. The United States and the DPRK commit to establishing new U.S.-DPRK relations in accordance with the desire of the peoples of the two countries for peace and prosperity.

2. The United States and the DPRK will join their efforts to build a lasting and stable peace regime on the Korean Peninsula.

3. Reaffirming the April 27, 2018 Panmunjom Declaration, the DPRK commits to work towards the complete denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula.

4. The United States and the DPRK commit to recovering POW/MIA remains including the immediate repatriation of those already identified.


When reporters asked if Kim was prepared to denuclearize, Trump said that they would be “starting that process very quickly.”

This isn't Iran. Iran signed NOTHING, and we gave them billions. Obama didn't even meet face to face with their leader, did he? Nope

No money is changing hands here, North Korea released prisoners without a plane full of cash. Both parties signed the document, putting their reputation in the world on the line.

Good work Mr. President.
Copy/paste from here. No atrribution.
  #575  
Old 06-13-2018, 02:56 PM
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Moderating


Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver lining View Post
Four points of the Trump-Kim Declaration:

1. The United States and the DPRK commit to establishing new U.S.-DPRK relations in accordance with the desire of the peoples of the two countries for peace and prosperity.

2. The United States and the DPRK will join their efforts to build a lasting and stable peace regime on the Korean Peninsula.

3. Reaffirming the April 27, 2018 Panmunjom Declaration, the DPRK commits to work towards the complete denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula.

4. The United States and the DPRK commit to recovering POW/MIA remains including the immediate repatriation of those already identified.

When reporters asked if Kim was prepared to denuclearize, Trump said that they would be “starting that process very quickly.”

This isn't Iran. Iran signed NOTHING, and we gave them billions. Obama didn't even meet face to face with their leader, did he? Nope

No money is changing hands here, North Korea released prisoners without a plane full of cash. Both parties signed the document, putting their reputation in the world on the line.

Good work Mr. President.
What to do, what to do. I see this post with an 11:00am timestamp (PST), with my note here having an 11:48 timestamp. So unless you have a time machine, you couldn't have seen it before making this post. It would seem unfair to warn you for not being prescient, however there was the issue of the two previous notes here, and here. I repeat the instruction from the other thread - link sources if you are going to copy and paste. (again) Do not do this again.

[/moderating]

Last edited by Bone; 06-13-2018 at 02:56 PM.
  #576  
Old 06-13-2018, 03:02 PM
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All he is saying is give peace a chance!
  #577  
Old 06-13-2018, 04:04 PM
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Could a plane full of cash even take off? Where would the pilot sit? And how would he see, with all that cash pressed up against the cockpit windows?
  #578  
Old 06-13-2018, 04:57 PM
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Copy/paste from here. No atrribution.
In fairness, these 4 points are actually from the Joint Statement issued by Kim and Trump. He was cut and pasting from any number of website sources, not necessarily Reuters. This isn't exactly the same as copying from an editorial or blog.
  #579  
Old 06-13-2018, 06:40 PM
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"Peace for our time"
Peace within our term seems to be the current target.

US wants disarmament from Kim Jong-un's North Korea within Donald Trump's current term

"Asked if he would like to accomplish major nuclear disarmament within Mr Trump's current term (Jan-2021)"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Pompeo:
"Oh yes, most definitively. Absolutely … you used the term major, major disarmament, something like that? We're hopeful that we can achieve that in the two-and-a-half years.

Remind me again, I thought the merkins took that long to fill SCOTUS appointments.
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  #580  
Old 06-13-2018, 09:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Silver lining View Post
Four points of the Trump-Kim Declaration:

1. The United States and the DPRK commit to establishing new U.S.-DPRK relations in accordance with the desire of the peoples of the two countries for peace and prosperity.

2. The United States and the DPRK will join their efforts to build a lasting and stable peace regime on the Korean Peninsula.

3. Reaffirming the April 27, 2018 Panmunjom Declaration, the DPRK commits to work towards the complete denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula.

4. The United States and the DPRK commit to recovering POW/MIA remains including the immediate repatriation of those already identified.

When reporters asked if Kim was prepared to denuclearize, Trump said that they would be “starting that process very quickly.”

This isn't Iran. Iran signed NOTHING, and we gave them billions. Obama didn't even meet face to face with their leader, did he? Nope

No money is changing hands here, North Korea released prisoners without a plane full of cash. Both parties signed the document, putting their reputation in the world on the line.

Good work Mr. President.
How many times will you spread the "Iran signed nothing" falsehood? At what point is it intentional?
  #581  
Old 06-14-2018, 05:36 AM
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https://www.thedailybeast.com/pompeo...nuclearization

Looks like Pompeo is saying that the US continues to insist on denuclearization first, then an end to sanctions. I don't think Kim is going to buy this approach, but maybe I'm wrong and the agreement to end military exercises is enough to keep Kim listening to what the US has to say. Still, increased legitimacy and political standing aside, the sanctions are still a thing, and they represent an existential threat to his regime the longer they continue.
  #582  
Old 06-14-2018, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Silver lining View Post
Four points of the Trump-Kim Declaration:

This isn't Iran. Iran signed NOTHING, and we gave them billions. Obama didn't even meet face to face with their leader, did he? Nope

No money is changing hands here, North Korea released prisoners without a plane full of cash. Both parties signed the document, putting their reputation in the world on the line.

Good work Mr. President.
It appears that you're unaware that Iran was having ITS OWN FUCKING MONEY returned to it.
  #583  
Old 06-14-2018, 07:42 AM
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Originally Posted by asahi View Post
https://www.thedailybeast.com/pompeo...nuclearization

Looks like Pompeo is saying that the US continues to insist on denuclearization first, then an end to sanctions. I don't think Kim is going to buy this approach, but maybe I'm wrong and the agreement to end military exercises is enough to keep Kim listening to what the US has to say. Still, increased legitimacy and political standing aside, the sanctions are still a thing, and they represent an existential threat to his regime the longer they continue.
Surprise, surprise! That’s NOT what NK thinks they agreed to.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/13/w...rth-korea.html

From the article:

“But the North Korean news agency said that the two leaders had agreed to a phased process it which Pyongyang would bargain away its nuclear arsenal in stages, securing reciprocal actions from the United States at each step.”


I’ve worked with idiots like Trump my whole life, these vague negotiators that think that they are such good businessmen. And it doesn’t work.

One time I was doing showroom sales and I was working with a customer that was looking to buy a LARGE quantity of product. But he wanted me to include an accessory at no cost. I felt it was a firm request (and a good deal). I tried to get my boss to approve it. But he wouldn’t, he decided to use this as an opportunity to “show me how it’s done”. So he double-talks the customer and closes the sale. And he has a LARGE quantity of merchandise delivered from the warehouse to the pickup area of the showroom. And he’s gloating the whole time and bragging about how “ that’s how it’s done.”

Then he hands the customer the invoice, a brief confrontation ensues where he tries to tell the guy “I told you I’d give you the accessories, I never said they’d be free.” The customer walked out rather forcefully and everything went back to the warehouse.

One of the things my boss did wrong was setting himself up as successful before he started the negotiation. And he put himself in a bad position when he decided to “show” me that he could close the deal without giving up anything. Now if he hadn’t decided to put on a show, he probably could’ve sold the accessories at half-price. And our double teaming would’ve worked.

But he was a lousy negotiator and he once read The Art of the Deal*. I went into the restroom and laughed my ass off.

* just kidding. He couldn’t read**

** seriously. He had some sort of untreated learning disability. He could only read small sections of text with great difficulty. He tried to cover but I caught on.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chisquirrel View Post
How many times will you spread the "Iran signed nothing" falsehood? At what point is it intentional?
And even if they didn’t sign anything, so what? It’s like releasing a prisoner on parole. You give him a list of hard specific conditions and you let him know the consequences if he doesn’t abide by those conditions. So what if your convict doesn’t sign it. He breaks the rules, he goes back to jail.

Now if you just made your prisoner sign some vague-assed promise to “be good”, then maybe a signature is important. But if your agreement has teeth, it doesn’t matter. They break the agreement, they face the consequences.

Last edited by Ann Hedonia; 06-14-2018 at 07:44 AM.
  #584  
Old 06-14-2018, 08:56 AM
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Surprise, surprise! That’s NOT what NK thinks they agreed to.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/13/w...rth-korea.html

From the article:

“But the North Korean news agency said that the two leaders had agreed to a phased process it which Pyongyang would bargain away its nuclear arsenal in stages, securing reciprocal actions from the United States at each step.”
Even if the US insists on continuing the sanctions, Russia and China might decide it's time to ignore the US and it just might push back against them. Politically, Trump might have just put himself (and the US) in a situation in which it loses political leverage to impose sanctions. If that's the case - and it's too early to tell if it is, but if so -- then that would mean North Korea might be able to get just enough relief to get by for a while.

The concern I have is that if Kim goes back to being Kim, it's going to be a major embarrassment for Trump, as it would strike at the heart of his identity and who he imagines himself to be. Meanwhile, there's the angry walrus-man named John Bolton, who has probably been quietly seething the entire time, and he's been waiting for more than a decade to show the world what he means by using "hard power". If Trump feels belittled, ridiculed, and humiliated, Bolton is going to reinforce his appetite for revenge.

On its surface, Trump's meeting with Kim is a major foreign policy achievement - just getting the guy to talk and speak diplomatically and put his military toys away for a few months is an accomplishment. But it's precisely because of the personalities involved that potentially magnifies failure. We're a long way from peace, and failure is still unfortunately a very distinct possibility.

Last edited by asahi; 06-14-2018 at 08:58 AM.
  #585  
Old 06-14-2018, 09:03 AM
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Here's a pretty good take from Slate: "Trump isn’t trying to win over North Korea’s leader. He’s using him to win over you."
And like clockwork...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver lining View Post
3. Reaffirming the April 27, 2018 Panmunjom Declaration, the DPRK commits to work towards the complete denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula.


I will reiterate my previous statement, silver lining. Would you be willing to bet money on the denuclearization of North Korea within the next 5-10 years? Because if so, I'll give you 2:1 odds and bet my next paycheck on it. Hell, I'll bet my next paycheck and 10% on every subsequent paycheck I receive for the time until the bet is due. You trust your president. You seem to think this is a diplomatic coup de gras. Put your money where your mouth is. Take a few grand off me, take a nice vacation.

Quote:
Both parties signed the document, putting their reputation in the world on the line.

Good work Mr. President.
Ha ha, implying Trump has a reputation for keeping his deals.
  #586  
Old 06-14-2018, 02:58 PM
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Could a plane full of cash even take off? Where would the pilot sit? And how would he see, with all that cash pressed up against the cockpit windows?
Here's what CNN says

https://www.cnn.com/2016/08/03/polit...ash/index.html
  #587  
Old 06-14-2018, 03:00 PM
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Is it your considered opinion that a plane full of cash is more sinister than a single electronic transaction of the same amount?
  #588  
Old 06-14-2018, 03:00 PM
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And like clockwork...





I will reiterate my previous statement, silver lining. Would you be willing to bet money on the denuclearization of North Korea within the next 5-10 years? Because if so, I'll give you 2:1 odds and bet my next paycheck on it. Hell, I'll bet my next paycheck and 10% on every subsequent paycheck I receive for the time until the bet is due. You trust your president. You seem to think this is a diplomatic coup de gras. Put your money where your mouth is. Take a few grand off me, take a nice vacation.



Ha ha, implying Trump has a reputation for keeping his deals.
I'm not the betting type, but I do think North Korea will change for the better and give up much of their nuclear engine and plants within the next 5-10 years.

They have already changes the way they are reporting things in the press. Trump isn't a welcome fool. Much happened behind the scenes before he meet with Jong -In.
  #589  
Old 06-14-2018, 03:09 PM
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How many times will you spread the "Iran signed nothing" falsehood? At what point is it intentional?
Chisquirrel,

There seems to be some confusion about Iran. They did not SIGN on the nuclear deal.

Sources:

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/guyben...nding-n2086372

https://unitedwithisrael.org/state-d...-nuclear-deal/

https://hotair.com/archives/2015/11/...gally-binding/

How many more do you need??

Now, please show me any source where that says Iran signed off on the nuclear deal. I'll read them. Don't say its a falsehood, I showed some cards.

Now let's see yours. PM Me with the link please. I shall read it.

- Silver Lining
  #590  
Old 06-14-2018, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Silver lining View Post
I'm not the betting type, but I do think North Korea will change for the better and give up much of their nuclear engine and plants within the next 5-10 years.
Why would North Korea give up their weapons? To follow the John Bolton Libya model of trying to rejoin the rest of the world, and end up with a murdered dictator? Makes no sense.
  #591  
Old 06-14-2018, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Silver lining View Post
Chisquirrel,

There seems to be some confusion about Iran. They did not SIGN on the nuclear deal.

Sources:

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/guyben...nding-n2086372

https://unitedwithisrael.org/state-d...-nuclear-deal/

https://hotair.com/archives/2015/11/...gally-binding/

How many more do you need??

Now, please show me any source where that says Iran signed off on the nuclear deal. I'll read them. Don't say its a falsehood, I showed some cards.

Now let's see yours. PM Me with the link please. I shall read it.

- Silver Lining
You seem to be arguing a particularly stupid point that an agreement requires a signature.

By basic contract law, an agreement was formed with the JCPOA. The P5+1 took certain steps on the assurances that Iran would take their steps; and Iran took certain steps on the assurances that the P5+1 would take their steps. Both parties acted consistent with the agreement, regardless of the precise form of the agreement. You can't fucking argue there was no agreement if everyone is doing what they were expected to do.
  #592  
Old 06-14-2018, 03:14 PM
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Is it your considered opinion that a plane full of cash is more sinister than a single electronic transaction of the same amount?
I showed the cash the plane to Iran. Any comments now?

Would you like to see were a secret Obama-era license let Iran tap dollars? Read below, nice of Obama to mislead Congress...

Quote:
The Obama administration secretly sought to give Iran access — albeit briefly — to the U.S. financial system by sidestepping sanctions kept in place after the 2015 nuclear deal, despite repeatedly telling Congress and the public it had no plans to do so.

Quote:
The report by the Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations revealed that under President Barack Obama, the Treasury Department issued a license in February 2016, never previously disclosed, that would have allowed Iran to convert $5.7 billion it held at a bank in Oman from Omani rials into euros by exchanging them first into U.S. dollars. If the Omani bank had allowed the exchange without such a license, it would have violated sanctions that bar Iran from transactions that touch the U.S. financial system.

The effort was unsuccessful because American banks — themselves afraid of running afoul of U.S. sanctions — declined to participate. The Obama administration approached two U.S. banks to facilitate the conversion, the report said, but both refused, citing the reputational risk of doing business with or for Iran.
"The Obama administration misled the American people and Congress because they were desperate to get a deal with Iran," said Sen. Rob Portman, R-Ohio, the subcommittee's chairman.
Full link of the above quotes:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...cid=spartanntp
  #593  
Old 06-14-2018, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Chisquirrel,

There seems to be some confusion about Iran. They did not SIGN on the nuclear deal.

Sources:

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/guyben...nding-n2086372

https://unitedwithisrael.org/state-d...-nuclear-deal/

https://hotair.com/archives/2015/11/...gally-binding/

How many more do you need??

Now, please show me any source where that says Iran signed off on the nuclear deal. I'll read them. Don't say its a falsehood, I showed some cards.

Now let's see yours. PM Me with the link please. I shall read it.

- Silver Lining

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravenman View Post
You seem to be arguing a particularly stupid point that an agreement requires a signature.

By basic contract law, an agreement was formed with the JCPOA. The P5+1 took certain steps on the assurances that Iran would take their steps; and Iran took certain steps on the assurances that the P5+1 would take their steps. Both parties acted consistent with the agreement, regardless of the precise form of the agreement. You can't fucking argue there was no agreement if everyone is doing what they were expected to do.


What treaty or deal is made without a signature? In other words, I am correct. It's not a stupid point. The JCPOA isn't good enough, then bent in many places and were taken. At the very least having Iran's supreme leader's signature on it would come a political cost as the world can see it. Why not sign it???

Once again, Iran signed NOTHING. Try getting a mortgage, a car or anything else without a signature on it. It's basic.

All treaties, which this was not even close to one, requires signatures too.

North Korea sent their leader to meet face to face without ours and at least signed an agreement, and seems to be working towards it. And no planes full of cash or access to billions was granted. A stark contrast to the Iran deal. Absolutely.

This Iran " deal " looks like foreign aid under the guise of a hope. No less authority than John Kerry, our Secretary of State at the timewho understands Iran funds terrorism and actually has in their budget said, we are now funding terrorism. If you want that quote and link, simply ask. Powerful words. And very true.

How much in Billions did Iran acquire, before Trump shut it down? I'd like to know that. Who has that answer?


PS: You're use of language is not clean. I debate cleanly. I ask the same in return.

Last edited by Silver lining; 06-14-2018 at 03:25 PM.
  #594  
Old 06-14-2018, 03:30 PM
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PS: You're use of language is not clean. I debate cleanly. I ask the same in return.
How rude.
  #595  
Old 06-14-2018, 03:39 PM
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Why would North Korea give up their weapons? To follow the John Bolton Libya model of trying to rejoin the rest of the world, and end up with a murdered dictator? Makes no sense.
Maybe they fear Trump? Maybe they want a seat at the world table for trade? Maybe Jong -UN looked at South Korea and decided his nation is better off being more like them. Victory though arms can not be achieved by North Korea.

If you can't beat them, join them.

There are many reasons, I just gave a few examples.

It is estimated that North Korea sits on 10 trillion in metals and minerals. The average worker in North Korea makes about $25 dollars a month. Cheap labor. They can make a good trading partner.

De-nuclearization of North Korea is a good thing for the world. Some just cant stand that Trump's name is attached to it. What happened, wasn't the left very anti nuke?
  #596  
Old 06-14-2018, 03:44 PM
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How many times has North Korea promised that, and more, and never complied? Please not the absence of any enforcement, or even as much specificity, in this thing, unlike previous NK deals. The difference this time is that the US gave up military exercises and reduced its ability to enforce denuclearization or anything else, and gave a tinpot murderous dictator status he never had before.

The Great Dealmaker got rolled. Face it.
  #597  
Old 06-14-2018, 03:44 PM
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De-nuclearization of North Korea is a good thing for the world.
How will we know if they denuclearize?
  #598  
Old 06-14-2018, 03:45 PM
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Please not the absence of any enforcement, or even as much specificity, in this thing, unlike previous NK deals. The difference this time is that the US gave up military exercises and reduced its ability to enforce denuclearization or anything else, and gave a tinpot murderous dictator status he never had before.

The Great Dealmaker got rolled. Face it.
No; this deal is awesome because it has signatures, right Silver lining?
  #599  
Old 06-14-2018, 03:46 PM
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The best signatures. With a Sharpie!
  #600  
Old 06-14-2018, 03:50 PM
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This Iran " deal " looks like foreign aid under the guise of a hope. No less authority than John Kerry, our Secretary of State at the timewho understands Iran funds terrorism and actually has in their budget said, we are now funding terrorism. If you want that quote and link, simply ask. Powerful words. And very true.



PS: You're use of language is not clean. I debate cleanly. I ask the same in return.
Kerry said: "Some of the money MAY be used to fund terrorism. There's no way for us to prevent that."

He also said that there are such great demands on the Iranian government to develop the country that "there is no way they can succeed in what they want to do if they are very busy funding a lot of terrorism."
He continued, "If we catch them funding terrorism, they are going to have a problem with the United States Congress and other people, obviously."

Debate "cleanly" indeed.

Last edited by Grrr!; 06-14-2018 at 03:51 PM.
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