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  #101  
Old 09-13-2019, 09:19 PM
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Yes never heard that one. Guess what I drive on the roads too Einstein.

Yep, you're a hypocrite.

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Taking part is voluntary. Being taxed, jailed or killed by the government is not.

Wow. You really are new to the idea of logic and making sense.
  #102  
Old 09-13-2019, 09:44 PM
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Yeah itís this thing called economics.

Yes you have the option of voluntarily putting up money to pay for all of those things. You donít and neither does anyone else who supports them. They can only be sold to the public if you promise to eat the rich in order to provide them.

Yes never heard that one. Guess what I drive on the roads too Einstein.

Taking part is voluntary. Being taxed, jailed or killed by the government is not.
I'm listening. I'm sure you'd be much more convincing if you could provide a concrete example or two of the sheer abject misery the payment of taxes has made your life. If there's more to it than that, just how many times have you been jailed or killed by the government anyway?
  #103  
Old 09-13-2019, 10:03 PM
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I'm listening. I'm sure you'd be much more convincing if you could provide a concrete example or two of the sheer abject misery the payment of taxes has made your life. If there's more to it than that, just how many times have you been jailed or killed by the government anyway?
All the riff-raff driving on his roads.
  #104  
Old 09-14-2019, 06:23 AM
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@ Will - Speaking only for myself, the problem isn't so much that I disagree with your ideas, as that I cannot discern any intelligible ideas in your writings. Trump can't complete a paragraph without reminding us what a genius he thinks he is; you can't complete a paragraph without blaming all on the tax-collector and his gun. Is there more to your "philosophy" than "I don't like to pay teh taxes"?

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You claimed to value your money less than a list of things you havenít traded your money for. This demonstrates that you are full of shit.
I'll repeat my offer to read your manifesto, if you have the gumption and mental clarity to write one up. (No, I don't want a link to Rothbard's babblings, many of which even you have disavowed.) As is, it's hard for most of us to believe you have the slightest clue about human nature, history, human society or economics.

If you can't do that, can you at least answer simple multiple-choice questions? Let's start with these:

1. Was the eradication of smallpox
... (a) Good.
... (b) Bad.

2. Some countries are devastated when a a flood plain gets inundated. Of the following, which is the best solution?
... (a) Let farmers, and others dependent on favorable weather, hedge their possible losses by trading weather derivatives on Chicago's Board of Trade.(*)
... (b) Let each individual farmer who borders on the mighty river protect his own property with a levee.(**)
... (c) Hope that Martin Shkreli, or some other philanthropic Job Creator, donates money to build a major system of dams and reservoirs.
... (d) Other.

(*) Yes, this solution was actually proposed by a HypnoLibertarian in a previous thread!
(**) Yes, this solution was also actually proposed by a HypnoLibertarian in a previous thread!


This is your big chance, WillFarnaby ! Can you even answer two simple questions? Or are you nothing but sarcastic quips you find "cutesy"?
  #105  
Old 09-14-2019, 07:36 AM
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@ WillThis is your big chance, WillFarnaby ! Can you even answer two simple questions? Or are you nothing but sarcastic quips you find "cutesy"?
Since he has so far declined a simple invitation of an example or two of NPR "propaganda", I am not optimistic. I think he finds clarification of his viewpoint emasculating, or something.
  #106  
Old 09-14-2019, 10:14 AM
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The current chief at NPR was formerly heading up propaganda operations for the US govt. If you are relying on NPR for information, it is highly suspect now if it wasnít before.

I would think individuals in a free society would not want to be influenced by propaganda, but perhaps Iím wrong.
Don't you have a cat to torture or something?
  #107  
Old 09-16-2019, 09:08 AM
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Since he has so far declined a simple invitation of an example or two of NPR "propaganda", I am not optimistic. I think he finds clarification of his viewpoint emasculating, or something.
The questions seemed reasonable. For a man so adamant about his beliefs he sure doesn't want to spend time defending them, or even giving us a clue what he's talking about.

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Don't you have a cat to torture or something?
Maybe Chefguy's got the explanation for Farnaby's absence. He needs to build up his confidence on lesser mammals before he gets up the courage to try torturing humans again?

Please, someone, PM me if Farnaby ever writes anything that seems remotely intelligent. Otherwise I'd miss it since I'm afraid I may put Mr. F into the I___ Bucket.
  #108  
Old 09-16-2019, 09:15 AM
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...Please, someone, PM me if Farnaby ever writes anything that seems remotely intelligent. Otherwise I'd miss it since I'm afraid I may put Mr. F into the I___ Bucket.
He has a core message: democrats/liberals are warmongers. If you hear that once, then you're good on the Farnaby front. It's a one page book containing a single sentence. The book requires no covers, nor pages. A folded post-it note will do.
  #109  
Old 09-16-2019, 09:18 AM
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NPR is a very trusted source for information/news. I see nothing wrong with this guy working at NPR.
  #110  
Old 09-16-2019, 12:33 PM
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He has a core message: democrats/liberals are warmongers. If you hear that once, then you're good on the Farnaby front. It's a one page book containing a single sentence. The book requires no covers, nor pages. A folded post-it note will do.
So In Farnabyland, Ronnie Raygun, GW Bush and Dick Cheney were Democrats? Mind. Blown.

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  #111  
Old 09-16-2019, 12:49 PM
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Yeah itís this thing called economics.
Youíre declaring that the only kind of value that exists is the economic kind. I will reiterate, thatís narrow and fucked up. Youíre like some kind of broken robot.
  #112  
Old 09-16-2019, 01:02 PM
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Value is created when an exchange takes place wherein each party trades something he values less for something he values more. Government is involuntary. This exchange doesnít take place.
I voluntarily gave the government money to get a passport. I valued the passport more than I valued the money.

Was value created?
  #113  
Old 09-16-2019, 01:17 PM
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I voluntarily gave the government money to get a passport. I valued the passport more than I valued the money.

Was value created?
WillFarnaby may have been compelled to go to public school, forced to be subjected to teaching instead of engaging in productive things like threading bobbins.

If so, his argument that compelled behavior has no value may indeed have one supporting example, because all that public education was not successful in teaching him jack shit.
  #114  
Old 09-16-2019, 01:24 PM
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I voluntarily gave the government money to get a passport. I valued the passport more than I valued the money.

Was value created?
The government has created the need for the passport. There was a time when people could travel between countries unmolested.

Thatís like saying mob protection is a value-added service.
  #115  
Old 09-16-2019, 01:39 PM
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The government has created the need for the passport. There was a time when people could travel between countries unmolested.

Thatís like saying mob protection is a value-added service.
I see. So in your world, passports would not be necessary, and people could travel freely between countries without being molested?

Are driver's licenses similarly not required in your world? Anyone can just get behind the wheel of a car and start motoring away?
  #116  
Old 09-16-2019, 01:40 PM
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Fighting fires creates value (or reduces the loss of value). So did the elimination of smallpox.
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  #117  
Old 09-16-2019, 01:41 PM
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There was a time when people could travel between countries unmolested.
Except by Neanderthals and sabre-toothed cats.
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  #118  
Old 09-16-2019, 01:43 PM
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There was a time when molesters could travel to Thailand freely, but looks like only one of us is complaining that those days are over.
  #119  
Old 09-16-2019, 01:49 PM
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I just checked - free condoms are available at my county health department. I value condoms more than my time in getting them - value added.

Unless you believe the government created the need for condoms.
  #120  
Old 09-16-2019, 02:54 PM
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Can we at least agree that douchebags add little or no value?
  #121  
Old 09-16-2019, 03:14 PM
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The government has created the need for the passport. There was a time when people could travel between countries unmolested.

Thatís like saying mob protection is a value-added service.
So why do you think "the government" did a bad thing in requiring passports? They provide identification that is universally accepted. Without them, visitors to foreign lands could be subject to imprisonment if the host government thinks they might be spies. Travelers who intend on committing crimes on foreign soil (such as smuggling) or escaping justice would be detained before they could leave. What's the drawback? Inconvenience?

What makes you think people could travel between countries unmolested? Throughout all time, natives were usually wary of strangers, and could easily kill them, take their loot, and leave their bodies for the vultures. The whole history of war is based on culture clash. And you so don't like violence.

What makes you think everybody in the olden days were trustworthy and peaceful? After "In the beginning," Genesis describes battle between tribes. There were war casualties thousands of years before there were liberals and conservatives. Do you ever venture outside your right-wing cocoon?
  #122  
Old 09-16-2019, 03:25 PM
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I see. So in your world, passports would not be necessary, and people could travel freely between countries without being molested?

Are driver's licenses similarly not required in your world? Anyone can just get behind the wheel of a car and start motoring away?
That would be up to the owners of the roads. I would assume there would be some sort of credential. What we wouldnít have would be armed gangs in clown cars harassing people and escalating situations needlessly.

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Fighting fires creates value (or reduces the loss of value). So did the elimination of smallpox.
So the govt creates value if it confiscates $10billion to snuff out a campfire? There is no economic calculation that is possible because there is no demonstrated preference. Economic actors demonstrate preference when they engage in voluntary transactions, that is how we know value is created.

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Except by Neanderthals and sabre-toothed cats.
No it was actually not that long ago. Pre-WWI. That is how fast our society has devolved. Governments have destroyed social trust and cohesion.

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I just checked - free condoms are available at my county health department. I value condoms more than my time in getting them - value added.

Unless you believe the government created the need for condoms.
How do you know that the other side has not seen a destruction of value that eclipses your perceived gain in value. By your logic, Bugsy adds value by bopping the butcher on the head and handing out cutlets to neighborhood kids.
  #123  
Old 09-16-2019, 03:26 PM
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no one remembers they had semi-official passports called "conduct books" in the 19/20tht century ? in which you had to have various places/officials fill them out saying you paid your hotel resturant bills didn't get drunk and cause fights ect .....

A lot of places and businesses required them ......
  #124  
Old 09-16-2019, 03:28 PM
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So why do you think "the government" did a bad thing in requiring passports? They provide identification that is universally accepted. Without them, visitors to foreign lands could be subject to imprisonment if the host government thinks they might be spies. Travelers who intend on committing crimes on foreign soil (such as smuggling) or escaping justice would be detained before they could leave. What's the drawback? Inconvenience?

What makes you think people could travel between countries unmolested? Throughout all time, natives were usually wary of strangers, and could easily kill them, take their loot, and leave their bodies for the vultures. The whole history of war is based on culture clash. And you so don't like violence.

What makes you think everybody in the olden days were trustworthy and peaceful? After "In the beginning," Genesis describes battle between tribes. There were war casualties thousands of years before there were liberals and conservatives. Do you ever venture outside your right-wing cocoon?
Of course you need to keep your head on swivel in another country. You need to do that in the US in some places. Fact is, passports were unnecessary for a long time. Scary things may have happened, but they still happen with passports. The only difference is that it is another government regulation to be hassled by.
  #125  
Old 09-16-2019, 03:30 PM
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no one remembers they had semi-official passports called "conduct books" in the 19/20tht century ? in which you had to have various places/officials fill them out saying you paid your hotel resturant bills didn't get drunk and cause fights ect .....

A lot of places and businesses required them ......
Sounds like an excellent free-market solution. Thank you for your contribution.
  #126  
Old 09-16-2019, 03:40 PM
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No it was actually not that long ago. Pre-WWI. That is how fast our society has devolved. Governments have destroyed social trust and cohesion.
I know, I remember how awesome it was when nobody had a government before WWI.
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  #127  
Old 09-16-2019, 03:51 PM
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The government has created the need for the passport. There was a time when people could travel between countries unmolested.
There was a time when very few people traveled between countries at all, or for that matter a few miles from their birthplace. And those that did were relatively wealthy, and often had some letter or other means of identification issued by their government.

It surprises me to learn that you are in favor of completely free immigration between countries.
  #128  
Old 09-16-2019, 03:53 PM
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Sounds like an excellent free-market solution. Thank you for your contribution.
How is this a free-market solution? What happens if you DON'T fill those out? Or what happens if I just have my sister fill mine out?

And I noticed you didn't answer whether or not you think everyone should be able to move between countries unmolested. Could you answer that one?
  #129  
Old 09-16-2019, 04:02 PM
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I know, I remember how awesome it was when nobody had a government before WWI.
I never knew you to be deliberately dense. A pity.

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There was a time when very few people traveled between countries at all, or for that matter a few miles from their birthplace. And those that did were relatively wealthy, and often had some letter or other means of identification issued by their government.

It surprises me to learn that you are in favor of completely free immigration between countries.
You are easily surprised. I have said as much any time the subject came up.

Passports did not come about as a service to newly mobile citizens. They came about out of a desire for government to exercise control over travelers.



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How is this a free-market solution? What happens if you DON'T fill those out? Or what happens if I just have my sister fill mine out?

And I noticed you didn't answer whether or not you think everyone should be able to move between countries unmolested. Could you answer that one?
There should be no national borders as currently conceived. Property owners shall have the right to admit or refuse to admit anyone as they see fit. I would imagine highway owners would allow passage to anyone as long as they didn’t cause trouble. I see no reason travelers would be molested in a free market.

Last edited by WillFarnaby; 09-16-2019 at 04:05 PM.
  #130  
Old 09-16-2019, 04:07 PM
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There should be no national borders as currently conceived. Property owners shall have the right to admit or refuse to admit anyone as they see fit. I would imagine highway owners would allow passage to anyone as long as they didn’t cause trouble. I see no reason travelers would be molested in a free market.


Who or what authority confirms that someone is a property owner?
  #131  
Old 09-16-2019, 04:09 PM
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Who or what authority confirms that someone is a property owner?
If the property is in dispute, private courts will decide ownership. Same as now but much more efficient and with mechanisms that drive the best decision-makers to the top instead of the best politicians.
  #132  
Old 09-16-2019, 04:12 PM
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If the property is in dispute, private courts will decide ownership. Same as now but much more efficient and with mechanisms that drive the best decision-makers to the top instead of the best politicians.

Who or what entities oversees and ensures private courts are being just.

Who or what entity evaluated credentials of those who serve on this courts.

Who or what entity provides the evidence to determine true ownership?
  #133  
Old 09-16-2019, 04:13 PM
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Who or what entities oversees and ensures private courts are being just.

Who or what entity evaluated credentials of those who serve on this courts.

Who or what entity provides the evidence to determine true ownership?
Who or what entity enforces court decisions?
  #134  
Old 09-16-2019, 04:15 PM
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That would be up to the owners of the roads. I would assume there would be some sort of credential. What we wouldnít have would be armed gangs in clown cars harassing people and escalating situations needlessly.
Is it the government that prevents road owners from hiring armed gangs in clown cars? If not the government then what?
  #135  
Old 09-16-2019, 04:18 PM
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If the property is in dispute, private courts will decide ownership. Same as now but much more efficient and with mechanisms that drive the best decision-makers to the top instead of the best politicians.
This is the formation of a government. It's just one that's not based on equal participation or consent of the governed.
  #136  
Old 09-16-2019, 04:19 PM
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I was aware that Will was a bit of a loon, but I had no idea he was quite that crazy. I'm out.
  #137  
Old 09-16-2019, 04:54 PM
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Who or what entities oversees and ensures private courts are being just.

Who or what entity evaluated credentials of those who serve on this courts.

Who or what entity provides the evidence to determine true ownership?
Okay, fine, so we'll need a little bit of government. But that's it! No more!
  #138  
Old 09-16-2019, 05:06 PM
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You are easily surprised. I have said as much any time the subject came up.
I avoid reading your posts as much as possible since I don't enjoy constantly slapping my forehead.

Since completely free immigration would cause the collapse of the world economy, I'm surprised anyone outside the poorest countries of the third world would be in favor of it. But if anyone were loony enough to think that, I guess it would be you.
  #139  
Old 09-16-2019, 05:25 PM
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Okay, fine, so we'll need a little bit of government. But that's it! No more!
How about if everyone in the area gives their input to help choose who should do these jobs, and instead everyone paying them directly, we each just kick in some money, and someone else distributes it to the people doing the work.
  #140  
Old 09-16-2019, 05:59 PM
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People like WillFarnaby are like fluorine-breathing aliens coming to Earth and saying, "You know what's wrong with your planet? All that oxygen. That shit's poisonous." And no matter how much we try to explain to them that we need oxygen to live, they just won't listen. Because they're idiots.
  #141  
Old 09-16-2019, 06:41 PM
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How about if everyone in the area gives their input to help choose who should do these jobs, and instead everyone paying them directly, we each just kick in some money, and someone else distributes it to the people doing the work.
Sounds good.

See, the answer to all of this ultimately is to get a group of people together to perform these various public services that are essential for a civilized society to function at all, in order to support the free market entrepreneurs conducting business.

Just don’t call it a government or you have tyranny again.

Oh, and all those capitalists chip in a bit of their profits voluntarily to ensure the system can be maintained, and to compensate those public workers for their time and efforts.

If businesses don’t opt in, though, you, uh... Hmm. I mean I guess the ones that don’t opt in will still benefit but without paying for it are at a clear advantage, which means that only an idiot with bad business sense would contribute. Why donate your profits at the expense of shareholders (and yourself for that matter)?

But you can’t force everyone to contribute because again, tyranny, blah blah blah.

Gosh, this free market utopian fantasy stuff is hard!

Last edited by Atamasama; 09-16-2019 at 06:46 PM.
  #142  
Old 09-16-2019, 10:13 PM
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It needs to be posted now and then.
  #143  
Old 09-16-2019, 10:47 PM
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If the property is in dispute, private courts will decide ownership. Same as now but much more efficient and with mechanisms that drive the best decision-makers to the top instead of the best politicians.
You mean besides voting? Who would run these mechanisms? Corporations specializing in property disputes perhaps? I bet they'd want to get paid. That's our only option if you don't want the dreaded government involved. Either way, it results in you giving money to somebody if you want your property rights secured. You can either pay a lawyer a retainer, or pay government taxes.

You don't really think things through, do you?
  #144  
Old 09-16-2019, 11:38 PM
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Corporations specializing in property disputes perhaps? I bet they'd want to get paid. That's our only option if you don't want the dreaded government involved
Ya know...I bet some of those corporations would like a fancy title to differentiate themselves from the hoi polloi. Maybe something like Polis or Domain or Kingdom or something like that. Those have a nice ring to them. And of course, they'll need to hire some muscle to ensure their decisions are carried out if anybody decides they just don't want to play anymore. Maybe call them, I dunno, an Army or something. Of course, the Army would only be employed against people who don't want to abide by the decisions of the Kingdom. And ya know....maybe the head of the Kingdom has a feeling they were specially chosen...maybe their Rights are Divinely inspired, so they are the 'best' decision-makers after all!

Nope, nothing like a government at all. And nothing like any form of government we've ever tried before. Nope.
  #145  
Old 09-17-2019, 12:01 AM
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If the property is in dispute, private courts will decide ownership. Same as now but much more efficient and with mechanisms that drive the best decision-makers to the top instead of the best politicians.

Private courts? Oh, you mean like sharia courts and the like?
  #146  
Old 09-17-2019, 02:06 AM
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Private courts? Oh, you mean like sharia courts and the like?
IIRC, you agree on which private court when you initiate any contract. Sit down at a restaurant? Before checking the menu, check which private food inspector they use, which private court will arbitrate, and so on. (Check it even if you've been to the restaurant before ó unscrupulous vendors often change their contractors.)

Your smart-phone will have an App telling you what your private court and insurer think about the restaurant's court and insurer. Make sure you verify the check-sums ó the restaurant's DNS server may be routing you to bogus info. (Everything is legal when there are no laws.) If you order fish, check the fine-print of the restaurant's food inspector's brochure: some don't cover ...

Come to think of it, maybe you should just stay home and prepare a meal from your own garden.
  #147  
Old 09-17-2019, 02:23 AM
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... There was a time when people could travel between countries unmolested.....
It's confusions like this that make me doubt Farnaby has ever read a history book. Safe roads for travelers are routinely cited as a primary benefit of Europe's early strong central governments.
  #148  
Old 09-17-2019, 02:57 AM
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Your smart-phone will have an App telling you what your private court and insurer think about the restaurant's court and insurer.

But how do I go about ensuring the manufacturer of the smartphone and the apps are reliable? And how did I get to the restaurant in the first place since there aren't any government-provided roads?

Better question, since the goverment's completely out of the picture, what am I using to get this nifty meal at the restaurant? Do I just roll on up with a wagonload, er, carload of stuff to barter?

Yeah, I can see how this won't go over well for a celebratory dinner.
  #149  
Old 09-17-2019, 06:20 AM
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Better question, since the goverment's completely out of the picture, what am I using to get this nifty meal at the restaurant? Do I just roll on up with a wagonload, er, carload of stuff to barter?
Presumably shiny metal and or stones. Check the web-site for what they accept, and hope their in-house appraiser accepts the quality you claim for your payment method.
  #150  
Old 09-17-2019, 06:27 AM
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Better question, since the goverment's completely out of the picture, what am I using to get this nifty meal at the restaurant? Do I just roll on up with a wagonload, er, carload of stuff to barter?
You're using real money. You know ó Bitcoins!

ETA: Like a stopped-clock that's correct twice a day, Farnaby may be right about one thing. The nearly half-century of success for modern fiat money is anomalous. Following the recent Bubbles of Asian Debt, Dotcoms, and Housing, Donald Amstad now thinks we're in a "bubble of 'risk-free assets' "! For the first time in my life, I'm taking a significant position in precious metals.
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