Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #101  
Old 09-11-2019, 02:25 PM
slash2k is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 2,436
Your own cite notes that blacks are more likely than whites to be working multiple jobs. The "very few people" works out to very nearly a million African-Americans. (There is also some evidence that the Current Population Survey undercounts the number of people working in the informal economy, although this point is disputed, so there may well be some additional number who work a regular job and also drive for Uber or clean houses or have some other gig.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kearsen1 View Post
Then I would say that the black families don't really care all that much regardless of what they answer to on a questionnaire. You MAKE the time for your kids. THEY are YOUR responsibility
If making time for your kids means the rent doesn't get paid this month, are your kids better off? For example, do you make time for the parent-teacher conference or the PTA meeting, even if it means losing several hours or a full day's wages?

Sure, it's easy to say that you shouldn't have kids if you don't have enough time and money. However, the kids are already here; you have to deal with the situation as it exists, not as you would like it to be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kearsen1 View Post
Adoptions can benefit. Even wards of the state can benefit (if you assume that governmental employees provide real benefits).
Where are you expecting to find these adoptive parents, or committed social workers? News flash: the foster care system in most US states is chronically underfunded. Here in Kansas, for example, (and we're not the most overstressed system) it's part of the new normal for foster kids to spend the night in the offices of the state foster care contractors, simply because there's no other place to put them. If you are willing to support greatly increased funding for foster care and adoption support, then sure, the system can be a lot better. However, that money could also be used in the school system and in the social welfare system, to help more kids stay out of foster care in the first place.
  #102  
Old 09-11-2019, 02:29 PM
Urbanredneck is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 7,798
My experience is you really only need to get rid of about 1%-5% of the worse ones and once their influence is gone the rest can be dealt with thru normal means like calling parents.

I'm serious. You can have 1-2 total brats in your class and the whole class suffers. Get rid of those students and the whole school changes.
  #103  
Old 09-11-2019, 02:40 PM
nearwildheaven is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 13,001
Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
Holy shit!



Fuck all that noise. I'd pull my kids out of a school that adopted policies like that so fast it would make the administration's heads spin.
Same here! Good grief. What are some people thinking?
  #104  
Old 09-11-2019, 03:05 PM
Shodan is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Milky Way Galaxy
Posts: 39,989
They're thinking that if a black student and a white student both have identical disciplinary records, and they both get suspended for the same thing, it's racism. So the obvious course of action is not to suspend anyone. Problem solved, racism defeated.

Regards,
Shodan
  #105  
Old 09-11-2019, 03:08 PM
Richard Parker is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Manhattan
Posts: 12,153
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
They're thinking that if a black student and a white student both have identical disciplinary records, and they both get suspended for the same thing, it's racism. So the obvious course of action is not to suspend anyone. Problem solved, racism defeated.

Regards,
Shodan
Consider whether your need to straw man your opposition says something about the strength of your position.
  #106  
Old 09-11-2019, 03:43 PM
nearwildheaven is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 13,001
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissTake View Post
pointing out which black female students would be pregnant before 15, and which black male students would be in prison
I've definitely heard of teachers from economically depressed, meth-ridden, 100% white areas doing this kind of thing. Sadly, they were often right.
  #107  
Old 09-11-2019, 03:46 PM
nearwildheaven is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 13,001
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
One idea is an alternative high school. In our district it is called Horizons Academy.

In a neighboring district it is called Blue Valley Academy.

When I was student teaching the "bad" kids could go to class but had to get a form signed in each class that they 1. came to class on time. 2. brought materials. 3. worked. 4. didnt cause trouble. This form was reviewed by staff and sent home to parents every week. If that didnt work out it was ISS all day and if that didnt work out then you had suspensions out of school. Kids that get OSS can still take work home.

So in that case, if a kid wanted to get kicked out, they had to really try and do it. Some did. But they were not allowed to run the school like we see in some areas.
I've posted this here before, but I'm going to say again that the alternative "school" in my old town did not have lesson plans or take attendance, and the people I knew who worked there (and they all had their own reasons for doing so) believed (among other things) that mandatory sterilization was a condition for admission to the school - not just the kid, either. Their parents, if they could be located, and siblings as well. I told that story to a woman I know who works as a regular HS teacher in the city where I now live, and she told me that the alt-schools here have stricter rules than the regular schools, so the kids won't clamor to go there.
  #108  
Old 09-11-2019, 03:48 PM
nearwildheaven is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 13,001
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryan Ekers View Post
Well, in the old days, the teacher could just beat the kid.
And you'd be surprised how many people still advocate that.

I've asked them, "Do you think a boss should be allowed to beat their employees?" and they say, "Oh, but that's different", just like beating wives and children is not the same either, in their eyes.
  #109  
Old 09-11-2019, 03:49 PM
nearwildheaven is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 13,001
Quote:
Originally Posted by fedman View Post
my fiancé is Black teacher at all-Black inner city school, and tales about students engaged in insubordination behavior, not to mention assaults by parents when students are disciplined, tells me it is a racial problem. It seems that many students are not motivated to value education by parents and peers.
I wouldn't consider something like this racial as much as cultural or societal. I can assure you that there are plenty of "parents" who aren't black who have conditioned their children to not value education.
  #110  
Old 09-11-2019, 03:50 PM
Czarcasm's Avatar
Czarcasm is online now
Charter Member
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 62,571
Quote:
Originally Posted by nearwildheaven View Post
I've posted this here before, but I'm going to say again that the alternative "school" in my old town did not have lesson plans or take attendance, and the people I knew who worked there (and they all had their own reasons for doing so) believed (among other things) that mandatory sterilization was a condition for admission to the school - not just the kid, either. Their parents, if they could be located, and siblings as well.
When you posted this here before, were you able to back up the story with cites?
  #111  
Old 09-11-2019, 04:18 PM
Lumpy's Avatar
Lumpy is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota US
Posts: 16,664
I don't suppose all the "troubled kid" classes could be taught by African-American teachers, so the premise that the problem is white insensitivity to cultural differences could be proven or disproven?
  #112  
Old 09-11-2019, 04:26 PM
slash2k is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 2,436
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
They're thinking that if a black student and a white student both have identical disciplinary records, and they both get suspended for the same thing, it's racism. So the obvious course of action is not to suspend anyone. Problem solved, racism defeated.

Regards,
Shodan
No, they're thinking that if a black student and a white student behave in the same manner, but the black student gets suspended and the white student gets referred for ADHD testing, that maybe something is going on that isn't quite fair.
  #113  
Old 09-11-2019, 04:51 PM
Airbeck is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Chicago - South Side
Posts: 2,943
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lumpy View Post
I don't suppose all the "troubled kid" classes could be taught by African-American teachers, so the premise that the problem is white insensitivity to cultural differences could be proven or disproven?
Why are you assuming all of the "troubled" kids are black? Does this rule in the OP only apply to black children? Is it not possible for a white student to be disruptive?
__________________
"Sometimes I think that the surest sign of intelligent life in the Universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." - Calvin and Hobbes
  #114  
Old 09-11-2019, 05:01 PM
Lumpy's Avatar
Lumpy is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota US
Posts: 16,664
Quote:
Originally Posted by Airbeck View Post
Why are you assuming all of the "troubled" kids are black? Does this rule in the OP only apply to black children? Is it not possible for a white student to be disruptive?
No, but the entire criticism is that banning falls disproportionately on black kids.
  #115  
Old 09-11-2019, 05:51 PM
nearwildheaven is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 13,001
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned school uniforms, which some people seem to think is gonna save the world. Not gonna happen, not gonna happen.
  #116  
Old 09-11-2019, 10:24 PM
Urbanredneck is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 7,798
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lumpy View Post
I don't suppose all the "troubled kid" classes could be taught by African-American teachers, so the premise that the problem is white insensitivity to cultural differences could be proven or disproven?
Problem there is 1. not that many black teachers in the system. 2. they get snatched up by suburban districts and 3. they often dont want to deal with troubled inner city kids either.

Finally I have seen some white teachers who do perfectly fine with all black classes.

I should also add that Kansas city has an all black school called the African Centered Academy that has programs centered on promoting black culture.
  #117  
Old 09-11-2019, 10:53 PM
Sunny Daze's Avatar
Sunny Daze is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Bay Area Urban Sprawl
Posts: 12,841
Quote:
Originally Posted by slash2k View Post
No, they're thinking that if a black student and a white student behave in the same manner, but the black student gets suspended and the white student gets referred for ADHD testing, that maybe something is going on that isn't quite fair.
I think that children with disabilities in general get swept up in the "disruptive behavior" bucket. Reality check, they can be disruptive. They need additional supports and their behavior may not be what one prefers. My son, for example, got repeated suspensions for playing with his white board and marker in fourth grade. One could a) move those items, or b) ignore his doodling, but his school picked c) make a huge, instruction-stopping deal over it and then suspend my kiddo.

I completely agree with the proposition that minorities are more likely to be targeted. I just find it laughable that any school routinely refers students for testing. They don't want to pay for it. Easier to suspend the kid and hope you can eventually expel him.
  #118  
Old 09-12-2019, 07:08 AM
Shodan is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Milky Way Galaxy
Posts: 39,989
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Parker View Post
Consider whether your need to straw man your opposition says something about the strength of your position.
Thanks. I considered it, and it doesn't apply.

I get it - liberals will go to almost any lengths to deny that the reason for disparate outcomes could be due to anything beside racism. Unfortunately that runs up against the hard edge of reality, as it does when the administration says "well, it's just their culture that they show up late, act out, and disrespect their teachers because their father wasn't around to teach them how to behave" and the classrooms descend into chaos.

I would say "you do you" to the liberal school administrators, but that screws over the students who are supposed to be learning something other than "you can get away with anything if you're black".

Regards,
Shodan
  #119  
Old 09-12-2019, 07:15 AM
Shodan is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Milky Way Galaxy
Posts: 39,989
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
I should also add that Kansas city has an all black school called the African Centered Academy that has programs centered on promoting black culture.
Maybe they're doing a great job at promoting black culture. It depends on how you define "black culture".
Quote:
According to state test scores, 10% of students are at least proficient in math and 25% in reading.
Cite.

Regards,
Shodan
  #120  
Old 09-12-2019, 07:22 AM
iiandyiiii's Avatar
iiandyiiii is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 35,564
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
Thanks. I considered it, and it doesn't apply.

I get it - liberals will go to almost any lengths to deny that the reason for disparate outcomes could be due to anything beside racism. Unfortunately that runs up against the hard edge of reality, as it does when the administration says "well, it's just their culture that they show up late, act out, and disrespect their teachers because their father wasn't around to teach them how to behave" and the classrooms descend into chaos.

I would say "you do you" to the liberal school administrators, but that screws over the students who are supposed to be learning something other than "you can get away with anything if you're black".

Regards,
Shodan
You never actually answered any of the criticisms of your arguments and of the study you cited. It's easy to make this kind of silly, cite-free and broad potshot -- it takes much more effort to address actual arguments and criticism.
  #121  
Old 09-12-2019, 09:00 AM
Richard Parker is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Manhattan
Posts: 12,153
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
Thanks. I considered it, and it doesn't apply.

I get it - liberals will go to almost any lengths to deny that the reason for disparate outcomes could be due to anything beside racism. Unfortunately that runs up against the hard edge of reality, as it does when the administration says "well, it's just their culture that they show up late, act out, and disrespect their teachers because their father wasn't around to teach them how to behave" and the classrooms descend into chaos.

I would say "you do you" to the liberal school administrators, but that screws over the students who are supposed to be learning something other than "you can get away with anything if you're black".

Regards,
Shodan
You talk about the "hard edge of reality" but refuse to engage with actual data and discussions about methodology.

Meanwhile, you're selling a narrative about black kids that aligns nicely with the narratives created by slaveholders to justify slavery. In your mind, I suppose it is a total coincidence that you think these kids are lazy, undisciplined, and disrespectful because of their racial identity and that this was also historically a core precept of white supremacy. Total coincidence, right Shodan?
  #122  
Old 09-12-2019, 09:15 AM
Bone's Avatar
Bone is offline
Extrajudicial
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 10,860

Moderating


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
Maybe they're doing a great job at promoting black culture. It depends on how you define "black culture". Cite.

Regards,
Shodan
This is a warning for trolling. I was unsure after post #30, but that post combined with this one is hard to see as anything but trolling.

Do not post in this thread going forward.

[/moderating]
  #123  
Old 09-12-2019, 10:45 AM
Sparky812 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Great White North
Posts: 4,677
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
My experience is you really only need to get rid of about 1%-5% of the worse ones and once their influence is gone the rest can be dealt with thru normal means like calling parents.

I'm serious. You can have 1-2 total brats in your class and the whole class suffers. Get rid of those students and the whole school changes.
Except...they'll almost always be someone else who will take up that role in the class... and so on...

Last edited by Sparky812; 09-12-2019 at 10:45 AM.
  #124  
Old 09-12-2019, 12:55 PM
puddleglum's Avatar
puddleglum is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: a van down by the river
Posts: 6,666
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Parker View Post
You talk about the "hard edge of reality" but refuse to engage with actual data and discussions about methodology.

Meanwhile, you're selling a narrative about black kids that aligns nicely with the narratives created by slaveholders to justify slavery. In your mind, I suppose it is a total coincidence that you think these kids are lazy, undisciplined, and disrespectful because of their racial identity and that this was also historically a core precept of white supremacy. Total coincidence, right Shodan?
In the narrative you are selling, teachers are akin to slave owners.
You know who else agrees that many black kids today are lazy, undisciplined and disrespectful, many black teachers. Are they like slave owners too?

Your narrative aligns perfectly with what the communists used to say about America. Is that a total coincidence?
  #125  
Old 09-12-2019, 02:49 PM
Urbanredneck is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 7,798
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunny Daze View Post
I think that children with disabilities in general get swept up in the "disruptive behavior" bucket. Reality check, they can be disruptive. They need additional supports and their behavior may not be what one prefers. My son, for example, got repeated suspensions for playing with his white board and marker in fourth grade. One could a) move those items, or b) ignore his doodling, but his school picked c) make a huge, instruction-stopping deal over it and then suspend my kiddo.

I completely agree with the proposition that minorities are more likely to be targeted. I just find it laughable that any school routinely refers students for testing. They don't want to pay for it. Easier to suspend the kid and hope you can eventually expel him.
No not quite.

If a student has a disability and the school proves they cannot deal with him, then they have to pay to put him into a school where they can.

For example here in Kansas City many kids go to KCAutism Training Center. I believe its like $35,000-$50,000 a year. Yes, that district has to pay for it. I know one family who the family sued the local district showing their incompetence in dealing with their daughter and they got the district to pay to send her to a residential facility in Wichita (cant remember the name) costing nearly $100,000 a year.

Its part of the no child left behind law.

Its similar if you have a kid who is deaf your district would have to pay to send them to Kansas School for the Deaf.
  #126  
Old 09-12-2019, 02:55 PM
Urbanredneck is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 7,798
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparky812 View Post
Except...they'll almost always be someone else who will take up that role in the class... and so on...
No, I didnt see that.

Your talking about just a few little ass***** that have decided their purpose in life is to ruin the school, sell drugs, and cause mayhem and nobody like parents can stop them. Look at their grades and they have never passed a class (except those times when teachers will make a deal with them - dont cause trouble in my class and I will give you an A - yes it happens). In reality even in inner city schools most kids can be kept in control with a combination of parents, grades, wanting to play sports, and strict rules including targeted suspensions.


BTW, let me throw this out, being suspended out of school doesnt mean they cannot take work home and turn it in when they come back. If they are suspended, but still serious about school, they will do it.
  #127  
Old 09-12-2019, 03:02 PM
bordelond's Avatar
bordelond is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: La Rive Ouest
Posts: 10,364
Quote:
Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
This is one of the most disheartening things I have ever read.
  #128  
Old 09-12-2019, 05:49 PM
nearwildheaven is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 13,001
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
No, I didnt see that.

Your talking about just a few little ass***** that have decided their purpose in life is to ruin the school, sell drugs, and cause mayhem and nobody like parents can stop them. Look at their grades and they have never passed a class (except those times when teachers will make a deal with them - dont cause trouble in my class and I will give you an A - yes it happens). In reality even in inner city schools most kids can be kept in control with a combination of parents, grades, wanting to play sports, and strict rules including targeted suspensions.


BTW, let me throw this out, being suspended out of school doesnt mean they cannot take work home and turn it in when they come back. If they are suspended, but still serious about school, they will do it.
Or better yet - join the football team and you'll get away with anything.
  #129  
Old 09-12-2019, 06:20 PM
nearwildheaven is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 13,001
Quote:
Originally Posted by bordelond View Post
This is one of the most disheartening things I have ever read.
I agree, and so are the comments. I'd love to (well, not really) see the ones that were deleted. I'll put it this way: I have always said that if Sandy Hook or Columbine happened at a school like this, it might be reported on the local news (maybe) and would disappear from said news almost immediately, and would later be discussed only on racist blogs. I hope this theory is never proven right or wrong.

The is the closest I can find to that. Gee, I wonder why nobody ever talks about it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Lake_shootings

My brother and his wife, who are the parents of the special-needs child I mentioned earlier in this thread, lived in Kansas City in the early 1990s and Houston, TX in the late 1990s, before they had their kids, and knew they didn't want to raise children there because they met several TEACHERS who home-schooled! This was at a time when HSing was considered a wacko lunatic-fringe kind of thing, so that says a lot.

He said that at the time, Kansas City schools would send cabs, at school expense, to pick up kids who didn't show up to school. You can guess the rest: there were lots of "parents" who didn't bother getting their kids up and ready for school on time, because they knew a cab would come for them. This was why the KC school district spent more than twice as much money per student as the rest of the state, with marginal results.

Last edited by nearwildheaven; 09-12-2019 at 06:23 PM.
  #130  
Old 09-12-2019, 06:36 PM
Melbourne is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 5,322
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
.

This bill tells kids its ok to walk in late, cause major disruptions, call the teacher names, and act like a total ass.

What is your opinion?
My opinion is that the bill doesn't tell kids that at all.

It just tells teachers that their skill set has to include more than just suspending kids.


My sympathy is with the other kids, but there are lots of jobs that are difficult. I don't give teachers and school managers a special pass just because they find it difficult.
  #131  
Old 09-12-2019, 08:45 PM
fedman is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by Icarus View Post
Well, your characterization is deeply cynical. Alternatives like communicating with parents? What are the chances that the parents are the problem? Isn't it more disruptive for the kid to send them packing to a new school every 8 weeks? And burdening their no-good parents with trying to navigate this chaos?

I say this bill is a good first step, it basically says - "Hey schools, do your job! Find a solution!" Now of course, IRL this is going to require more resources and money to tackle. Hopefully that will be recognized and addressed in due course.
so teachers have to be child psychologists, family counselors, social workers in addition to teaching 30-40 other kids for low pay? and MR Idealist, where exactly is this money coming from?
  #132  
Old 09-12-2019, 08:48 PM
fedman is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 223
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eonwe View Post
With school being a fundamental prerequisite for successful independence, no one should be barred from attending school.
so does Vermont have gun-bearing, violent, anarchic students? right! so you can judge other circumstances?
  #133  
Old 09-12-2019, 10:17 PM
Urbanredneck is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 7,798
Quote:
Originally Posted by nearwildheaven View Post
Or better yet - join the football team and you'll get away with anything.
No, I dont think so. Maybe in a few schools but IMO gone are the days athletes got away with everything. If anything athletic keeps the kids in line because many schools have policies where low grades or misbehavior can get a kid kicked off a team.
  #134  
Old 09-12-2019, 10:22 PM
Urbanredneck is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 7,798
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eonwe View Post
With school being a fundamental prerequisite for successful independence, no one should be barred from attending school.
Yes, they should if they keep the other kids from learning. School is a privilege.
  #135  
Old 09-12-2019, 11:03 PM
SlackerInc's Avatar
SlackerInc is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Northern Minnesota
Posts: 12,663
I remember a few years ago NPR had a so-called expert on to claim that suspending kids from school massively “increased” their chances of going to prison in adulthood. The host took this declaration of the arrow of causality at face value. No one ever raised the possibility that what was really happening was that kids who were inherently oriented toward violence and antisocial behavior were more likely to get suspended on the way to adulthood because of their violent and antisocial behavior.

Next someone will correlate the number of ice cream trucks on the road on any given day with the incidence of heat stroke and declare that we should ban ice cream trucks.
  #136  
Old 09-12-2019, 11:14 PM
Velocity is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 15,389
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
I remember a few years ago NPR had a so-called expert on to claim that suspending kids from school massively “increased” their chances of going to prison in adulthood. The host took this declaration of the arrow of causality at face value. No one ever raised the possibility that what was really happening was that kids who were inherently oriented toward violence and antisocial behavior were more likely to get suspended on the way to adulthood because of their violent and antisocial behavior.

Next someone will correlate the number of ice cream trucks on the road on any given day with the incidence of heat stroke and declare that we should ban ice cream trucks.
To be fair, the two things feed off each other. Sure, a violent student is likelier to be suspended, but that suspension (if it's the out-of-school type) arguably pushes them further yet down the road to crime.
  #137  
Old 09-12-2019, 11:21 PM
GIGObuster's Avatar
GIGObuster is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Arizona
Posts: 29,238
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
I remember a few years ago NPR had a so-called expert on to claim that suspending kids from school massively “increased” their chances of going to prison in adulthood. The host took this declaration of the arrow of causality at face value. No one ever raised the possibility that what was really happening was that kids who were inherently oriented toward violence and antisocial behavior were more likely to get suspended on the way to adulthood because of their violent and antisocial behavior.

Next someone will correlate the number of ice cream trucks on the road on any given day with the incidence of heat stroke and declare that we should ban ice cream trucks.
Only that the research made before does not point to dumb correlations like that one.

https://www.vox.com/identities/2018/...ace-racism-gao
Quote:
This is not the first report to find something like this

It would be one thing if the GAO report was the first with findings like this, but there’s a lot of research and data that shows black kids are disproportionately punished in schools:
  • Federal civil rights investigations have found that black students are punished more harshly than white students in schools even when black and white students engage in identical or similar behavior.
  • Black students with disabilities are almost three times as likely to experience out-of-school suspension or expulsion as their white counterparts, and twice as likely to experience in-school suspension or expulsion, according to a report from the National Center for Learning Disabilities.
  • Although black boys face higher rates of school discipline than anyone else, a report from Columbia Law School’s Center for Intersectionality and Social Policy Studies found that black girls are six times as likely to be suspended as white girls, while black boys are three times as likely to be suspended as white boys.
  • A study published in Sociology of Education analyzed a data set of more than 60,000 schools in more than 6,000 districts. It found that schools with relatively larger minority and poor populations are more likely to implement criminal justice-oriented disciplinary policies — such as suspensions, expulsions, police referrals, and arrests — and less likely to connect them to psychological or behavioral care.
  #138  
Old 09-12-2019, 11:36 PM
GIGObuster's Avatar
GIGObuster is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Arizona
Posts: 29,238
Quote:
Originally Posted by fedman View Post
so teachers have to be child psychologists, family counselors, social workers in addition to teaching 30-40 other kids for low pay? and MR Idealist, where exactly is this money coming from?
Ironically one example pointed early by a critic of the ban in support of his position; does show that that is not really what it is done while applying also more discipline when needed, in a "school that was brought under control".

https://www.wearegreenbay.com/news/l...middle-school/
Quote:
With Washington in the spotlight, the school district acknowledged changes needed to be made before the start of this school year. An additional associate principal was hired, another counselor, three more teachers and five new monitors to work where needed during the school day.

“We’ve added layers of supervision, we’ve added layers of resource to provide support for kids and teachers and our number one goal was to create a safe environment,” Hoh said.

They also made a new commitment to explain to students – the consequences of their actions.
My impression is that funds were found, and really, more money is needed on that front for the security of our communities instead of wasting money on a wall.
  #139  
Old 09-12-2019, 11:48 PM
GIGObuster's Avatar
GIGObuster is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Arizona
Posts: 29,238
Quote:
Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
It sounds akin to the disastrous policies that were implemented in Minnesota a few years ago. By clamping down on the schools' ability to discipline, it turned them into violent, out-of-control places.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bordelond View Post
This is one of the most disheartening things I have ever read.
Only that it remains an opinion piece where bad things are cherry picked, so then another opinion can be used as a reply:

http://bethhawkins.org/2017/11/how-t...litical-cover/
Quote:
The St. Paul Pioneer Press, whose coverage of race-equity issues in schools I have criticized as biased, noted that local teachers called on DeVos‘ staff. Minnesota Public Radio did the same. The Star Tribune took no note of the meeting whatsoever. Neither of the outlets that covered it noted that the cases were hardly cut-and-dry instances of a violent youngster brutalizing an innocent adult.

But worse, neither appears to have asked how two Minnesota teachers ended up as political cover for an effort to end systemic biases in discipline that contribute to nation-leading racial disparities. In St. Paul, Black students make up less than one-third of students, yet during the first quarter of the 2016-2017 school year, they accounted for 77 percent of all suspensions.

There’s a ton of backstory here. The St. Paul Federation of Teachers campaigned to oust the superintendent who pushed to keep as many students of color as possible out of the prison pipeline, campaigning to elect a board that made firing Valeria Silva one of its first acts. Reaction to a teacher’s profane, racist blog divided the community.

And Katherine Kersten penned one of her signature everything-but-the-kitchen-sink stories, blaming political correctness run amok, “equity proponents” and Barack Obama for a host of ills in an article published in City Journal.

(Despite the fact that it bills itself as “the nation’s premier urban-policy magazine, ‘the Bible of the new urbanism,’” I had to look City Journal up. Apparently, it is “the place where Rudy gets his ideas” and “the magazine that saved [New York] city.”)

“Donald Trump’s Department of Education won’t have to wait to see how this project has played out in the real world,” Kersten wrote. “The public schools of St. Paul, Minnesota, are ahead of the curve in the racial-equity crusade. The violence and chaos that racial-equity policies have produced there should sound alarms across the nation about what can be expected by pursuing this course.”

The article’s race-bait title: “No Thug Left Behind.”

Kersten’s not entirely accurate description of one issue: “Social-media comments can also endanger teachers’ jobs. On March 9, special-education teacher Theo Olson was placed on paid administrative leave after he, in two Facebook posts, criticized the administration’s lack of support for teachers. Olson made no mention of race. Nevertheless, Silva put him on leave after Black Lives Matter St. Paul threatened to ‘shut down’ Como Park High School unless Olson was fired.”

The more factual description: Olson maintained a blog where he told “fictionalized” stories about students with pseudonyms like DeVonte and Meng “whoring trains,” fighting and speaking in exaggerated ebonics. He described himself as a misanthrope. And he displayed student assignments, complete with kids’ actual names, along with his opinion that the kids in his class did not care.
  #140  
Old 09-13-2019, 12:02 AM
sps49sd is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 554
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manda JO View Post

-sps49sd
Could you mention some of those ways, please?


Restorative discipline. Working WITH parents to discover what the problem is. Better classroom management. Not having racist asshole teachers bait black kids, and not having racist timid teachers freak out because if a black kid is loud in the hall, it's seen as a prelude to assault.
....
What is restorative discipline?
Do you have the time to set up and meet with these parents?
What is better classroom management?
If I see racism at work, I call it out. At the very least, they change their behavior when I am around or involved. It doesn't happen often.
  #141  
Old 09-13-2019, 06:11 AM
Manda JO is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Posts: 11,436
Quote:
Originally Posted by sps49sd View Post
What is restorative discipline?
Warning, PDF

Quote:
In essence, RIs are problem-solving processes held in a small conference or a larger circle format, which may include people affected by the incident directly and indirectly. Typically, conferences for serious incidents follow a formal procedure.

First, a preconference meeting is held whereby a facilitator meets with a disputant to orient him or her to restorative approaches. At this meeting, a disputant can decline to participate in an RI or a facilitator can determine a conference is not appropriate if the disputant will not accept any responsibility or acknowledge his or her role in the incident and/or is not willing to repair the harm (Wachtel, O’Connell, & Wachtel, 2010).

Second, if the conference is to proceed, a range of parties are invited to voluntarily attend, including the disputant, the disputant’s supporters, and all those negatively impacted by the incident (McCluskey et al., 2008).

Third, in the conference itself, participants sit in a circle facing one another, and a facilitator uses a structured set of questions to guide the exchange among all the participants. The goal is for everyone (including the victim and the disputant) to voice their perspectives. The set of questions facilitate reflection on the link between actions and subsequent consequences. Typical questions include the following: ‘‘What happened?’’; ‘‘Who has been harmed/affected by what you have done?’’; ‘‘What part are you responsible for?’’; and ‘‘How will the harm be repaired?’’ (Teachers Unite, 2014). Questions also solicit sharing of the emotional experience of the incident to further empathy and understanding (Nathanson, 1997; Wachtel et al., 2010).

Fourth, the participants jointly develop a plan to repair the harm and prevent future incidents. The aim is to hold disputants accountable for breaching trust with the community and at the same time reintegrate those students back into the community (Braithwaite, 1989, 2001; Costello, Wachtel, & Wachtel, 2010). Agreements to repair the harm can take many forms, including the disputant making amends through his or her actions (e.g., community service or repair damaged property). Typically, agreements are written down and agreed upon by all conference participants.
Quote:
Do you have the time to set up and meet with these parents?
What is better classroom management?
In the vast majority of these "horror show" schools that people love to hear about, there are teachers who don't have significant discipline problems. They manage. If more resources will help (and often they would, significantly), then we should provide them. Suspensions DON'T help. Having "that kid" out of your room for 3 day doesn't help the rest of the class and it doesn't lead to a better behaved kid upon his return.

Quote:
If I see racism at work, I call it out. At the very least, they change their behavior when I am around or involved. It doesn't happen often.
I'm not talking about a teacher coming to the lounge and saying 'Wow, these black kids sure are disruptive!". I am talking about, over several years, noticing that another teacher often has trouble with students that you have also taught without a problem, and that those kids are almost always black. That's a hard thing to call a person on, because you aren't in the room with them and you don't know what happened in any particular case. I'm talking about noticing--again, over years--that when they describe a black kid, they generally start with "respectful" or "disrespectful", as if those are the most important qualities, but when describing a white kid, they focus on qualities like intelligence or humor. It's noticing, over years, that they attribute misbehavior from black kids to "willful defiance" or "laziness" and others as "boredom", "immaturity", "ADHD". It's noticing, over years, a strong tendency to suspect black kids of cheating when they are successful.

Sure, you can say things like "That has never been my experience with that child" or "I think they are just immature" or "He's very bright, I wouldn't assume cheating", but unless you keep records, it's hard to convince someone there is a pattern.

Last edited by Manda JO; 09-13-2019 at 06:12 AM.
  #142  
Old 09-13-2019, 09:21 AM
SlackerInc's Avatar
SlackerInc is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Northern Minnesota
Posts: 12,663
Those are all good points. But I would hope you would agree that we can’t declare that there is as an absolute fact a problem in terms of racial discrimination just because kids of certain races are statistically being disciplined more than those of other races. Someone mentioned harsher punishments for the same offenses, and I’m not talking about that. That’s clearly wrong and needs to be addressed. I am talking only about whether the kids who are not ever cited for any misbehavior are more likely to be Asian or white or whatever.

Even Ta Nehisi Coates acknowledges that there is more violence and social dysfunction in black communities, because of what he calls the “crabs in a bucket” dynamic of urban poverty and historical economic oppression. So even if we take his explanation as a given, does a classroom teacher really need to give certain students a pass for disruptive behavior in his or her classroom because of macro-level social forces that led to this misbehavior?
  #143  
Old 09-13-2019, 10:04 AM
Manda JO is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Posts: 11,436
No one has suggested giving anyone a pass. What has been suggested is that the specific responses of suspension and referring to law enforcement 1) appear to be grossly over-assigned to African American students 2) they seem to dramatically increase the odds of adverse outcomes, like dropping out and ending up in prison 3) they don't appear to be particularly effective as discouraging behavior, and that, given all these things, perhaps schools should use other methods, especially against vaguely defined offenses like "disruptive behavior".

As a second line of thought, the extreme disparity is a rich area for professional development and self-reflection.
  #144  
Old 09-13-2019, 11:21 AM
SlackerInc's Avatar
SlackerInc is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Northern Minnesota
Posts: 12,663
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manda JO View Post
they seem to dramatically increase the odds of adverse outcomes, like dropping out and ending up in prison

What is your response if I say that it looks to me like you are conflating correlation with causation, and that what is much more likely is that people who are troublemakers get in trouble in school when they are young and then get in trouble with the police when they are older?

ETA: What this reminds me of is the logic we have heard for so many years about marijuana being a “gateway drug” to harder drugs like cocaine. The rationale being that kids who use marijuana are thousands of percent more likely to use cocaine than those who don’t use marijuana. Whereas what always seemed obvious to me is that for this not to be true, you would have to have lots of teenagers who are willing to do hard drugs but when a joint is passed their way, they say “no way, I never touch the stuff”. Which is obviously silly when you frame it that way, but this never seems to occur to any of the policymakers who cite these statistics.

Last edited by SlackerInc; 09-13-2019 at 11:26 AM.
  #145  
Old 09-13-2019, 11:36 AM
sps49sd is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 554
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manda JO View Post
Warning, PDF





In the vast majority of these "horror show" schools that people love to hear about, there are teachers who don't have significant discipline problems. They manage. If more resources will help (and often they would, significantly), then we should provide them. Suspensions DON'T help. Having "that kid" out of your room for 3 day doesn't help the rest of the class and it doesn't lead to a better behaved kid upon his return.



I'm not talking about a teacher coming to the lounge and saying 'Wow, these black kids sure are disruptive!". I am talking about, over several years, noticing that another teacher often has trouble with students that you have also taught without a problem, and that those kids are almost always black. That's a hard thing to call a person on, because you aren't in the room with them and you don't know what happened in any particular case. I'm talking about noticing--again, over years--that when they describe a black kid, they generally start with "respectful" or "disrespectful", as if those are the most important qualities, but when describing a white kid, they focus on qualities like intelligence or humor. It's noticing, over years, that they attribute misbehavior from black kids to "willful defiance" or "laziness" and others as "boredom", "immaturity", "ADHD". It's noticing, over years, a strong tendency to suspect black kids of cheating when they are successful.

Sure, you can say things like "That has never been my experience with that child" or "I think they are just immature" or "He's very bright, I wouldn't assume cheating", but unless you keep records, it's hard to convince someone there is a pattern.
Thank you for the information.

For the latter part, I don't mean I vent later, I mean I say something right then. But I don't work in a school, and it is an unusual occurrence.
  #146  
Old 09-13-2019, 12:14 PM
Manda JO is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Posts: 11,436
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
What is your response if I say that it looks to me like you are conflating correlation with causation, and that what is much more likely is that people who are troublemakers get in trouble in school when they are young and then get in trouble with the police when they are older?
I think everyone understands that there are complex confounding variables here. But if the role of discipline is to help, suspensions seem dramatically ineffective. The paper I cited earlier reported that:

Quote:
For instance, a longitudinal study of Florida ninth graders found that each suspension decreased students’ odds of graduating high school by an additional 20% and decreased their odds of enrolling in postsecondary schooling by 12% (Balfanz, Byrnes, & Fox, 2015). Moreover, a Texas statewide study found that students suspended or expelled for a discretionary school violation were about three times more likely than other youth to have contact with the juvenile justice system in the next school year (Fabelo et al., 2011).
It's hard to see how suspending students is helping.

Furthermore, while correlation doesn't inherently imply causation, it can serve as evidence, when their is a plausible mechanism of causation. In this case, it's quite plausible that being banned for 2-5 days of school at a time creates an incentive for misbehavior, decreases a student's sense of engagement, distances a student from social networks that might help, and serves as a band-aid that lets schools off the hook for finding effective ways to address the behavior.

In the same way, while yes, the correlation between race and suspensions doesn't inherently imply racism, again, there's a quite plausible mechanism by which implicit bias on the part of adults and even students is an important element. This is like me saying "Ice cream melts faster when it's hot outside" and you saying "Well, just because they are correlated doesn't mean heat causes melting". It's pretty strong evidence that it might.

Finally, I swear to God, if suspensions were a new idea, conservatives would Lose Their Shit over what a crazy idea that was. "Reward kids with a vacation after they are bad? Just let the school kick them out so they don't have to deal with them? How on earth is that suppossed to help anyone? That's the craziest thing I ever heard!"
  #147  
Old 09-13-2019, 12:22 PM
SlackerInc's Avatar
SlackerInc is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Northern Minnesota
Posts: 12,663
I’m not a conservative, so I’m not sure who you are directing that at.

You are still citing the same type of studies that find correlation without showing causation. The causation idea is weakly possible, but it seems to me that Ockham’s Razor leads us to believe as a Bayesian prior that there is not much causation there. They need to do an actual prospective study where they take carefully matched high schools (or even better, matched school districts) and eliminate suspensions in one but not the other. Until they have something like that, no amount of repeating the same types of data analysis means much of anything.

And BTW, I agree that out of school suspension is dumb. They should do ISS instead and use a juvenile detention center if necessary. Will it help the kids who get in trouble? I am agnostic on that, but I do believe it is good for the teachers and other students to have those troublemakers out of their hair.

ETA: This is something about which my wife, a high school special-education teacher, and I vehemently disagree. You might say she is much more qualified to judge, but I spent several years substitute teaching mostly in middle school and high school.

Last edited by SlackerInc; 09-13-2019 at 12:24 PM.
  #148  
Old 09-13-2019, 12:31 PM
Manda JO is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Posts: 11,436
[QUOTE=SlackerInc;21858570]I’m not a conservative, so I’m not sure who you are directing that at.

Quote:
You are still citing the same type of studies that find correlation without showing causation. The causation idea is weakly possible, but it seems to me that Ockham’s Razor leads us to believe as a Bayesian prior that there is not much causation there. They need to do an actual prospective study where they take carefully matched high schools (or even better, matched school districts) and eliminate suspensions in one but not the other. Until they have something like that, no amount of repeating the same types of data analysis means much of anything.
Why do you think it's only weakly possible? I've been in public schools for nearly two decades, and it seems incredibly plausible to me. Furthermore, if there's a strong possibility that it's hurting kids and no evidence it's helping them, how on earth can it be best practice to keep it?

Quote:
And BTW, I agree that out of school suspension is dumb. They should do ISS instead and use a juvenile detention center if necessary. Will it help the kids who get in trouble? I am agnostic on that, but I do believe it is good for the teachers and other students to have those troublemakers out of their hair.
Thank you for worrying about my hair. But I will tell you, a couple-few days without a "trouble-maker" is not worth the additional work it takes to get them caught up.

Quote:
ETA: This is something about which my wife, a high school special-education teacher, and I vehemently disagree. You might say she is much more qualified to judge, but I spent several years substitute teaching mostly in middle school and high school.
I think appealing to a couple years as a sub as superior experience to working as a teacher for decades is a weak argument.
  #149  
Old 09-13-2019, 12:32 PM
GIGObuster's Avatar
GIGObuster is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Arizona
Posts: 29,238
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
What is your response if I say that it looks to me like you are conflating correlation with causation, and that what is much more likely is that people who are troublemakers get in trouble in school when they are young and then get in trouble with the police when they are older?
It is less likely when one uses a bit of logic, crime rates are going down in America outside schools while the overreaction to incidents that before were not considered crimes in schools did increase.

Making things like the school-to-prison pipeline more than just an idea. So better solutions can and have been implemented with no disaster as a result.

https://www.vox.com/2015/2/24/810128...iscipline-race
Quote:
In Clayton County, Georgia, for example, where referrals from schools were overwhelming juvenile prosecutors, the juvenile courts made an agreement with the police force and the school district, restricting the cases in which police were allowed to arrest students in school or refer them to court. The agreement had a huge impact in schools: the high-school graduation rate increased by 24 percent from 2004 to 2010, beating the national average.

Meanwhile, some large school districts are moving away from zero tolerance policies. Broward County, Florida, one of the largest school districts in the country, decided in 2013 that schools, not police, would deal with students' nonviolent misdemeanors. The Chicago Public Schools are trying to reduce the number of suspensions, softening a policy under which students could be suspended for using a cell phone in school and ending suspensions for children younger than second grade, among other changes. In Los Angeles, children under 13 won't be referred to police for minor offenses, after police issued 552 tickets to preteens during the 2013-14 school year.

New York City schools are taking a more targeted approach. The city recently unveiled proposals to overhaul its school discipline code. If the changes go into effect, school principals will have to get the city Department of Education's permission to suspend any student for "insubordination," or for any suspension of a student in third grade or younger. And it would no longer be possible to give "superintendent's suspensions" (a more serious level of suspension) to students involved in "minor physical altercations."

Other schools are exploring restorative justice programs, which focus on forming relationships between teachers, students, and administrators and giving students an opportunity to resolve problems by talking about them. The Oakland School District has been testing this approach for 10 years and recently decided to expand it district wide after schools using restorative justice reported that their suspension rates were cut in half.
  #150  
Old 09-13-2019, 12:41 PM
SlackerInc's Avatar
SlackerInc is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Northern Minnesota
Posts: 12,663
Apples and oranges. Those are all good reforms. Nowhere do I see any mention of the complete elimination of suspensions. It does occur to me though that proposals to eliminate suspensions may just mean to use ISS instead, in which case I completely retract my opposition. But if they just mean the kid gets to stay in the classroom with everyone else no matter what they do, no way.
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:15 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright © 2019 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017