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  #101  
Old 10-10-2019, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Max S. View Post
You've got it all backwards, BobLibDem. The Chinese people love their government, by definition almost. When Daryl Morey implied that Hong Kong protesters fight for freedom, that's the Chinese equivalent of Lionel Scaloni saying the Bundys fight for freedom. When the NBA commissioner then comes out and defends Morey, you have to realize that the NBA is practically spitting on the Chinese people. They hate him for it.

~Max, attempting to be a satirist
Please drop this. It is distracting from the thread.

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  #102  
Old 10-10-2019, 02:42 PM
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To some extent this is the same dynamic we see in academic PC culture and liberal orthodoxy.
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I'm going to regret this but... what in the name of fuck are you talking about, exactly ?
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Originally Posted by bobot View Post
And Nazis. And people who sit on corporate boards. And the Republican politicians who fear Trump. And city council members who aren't the mayor. And workers who fear losing their jobs. Why, it's rampant!
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
I agree. Its basically bullying.
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
Academics are supposed to be insulated from being punished for their ideas and views. That insulation has worn transparently thin lately.

We see fairly nasty attacks by the radical left directed at moderate liberals.
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Originally Posted by Kobal2 View Post
OK, I'll rephrase, and by rephrase I mean repeat exactly what I said but emphasize the salient bit you must have missed : what are you talking about, exactly ? What are those examples ?
I know you've seen post #30 and #34. No more on this hijack.
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  #103  
Old 10-10-2019, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by TriPolar View Post
Can you cite anyone else who thinks this?
No. I thought it was racist/derogatory and coincidentally I had the chance to ask someone who is from China. He agreed. Looking for an authoritative cite online I see all sorts of talk on all sides. Maybe I'm off base here.
  #104  
Old 10-10-2019, 03:00 PM
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This may be the only thing Ted Cruz and AOC have ever agreed on in Congress.
  #105  
Old 10-11-2019, 08:56 AM
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Since Tiananmen was mentioned, here's an interesting point:

"Tiananmen Square protesters sing the Internationale. Contrary to the western narrative, the workers at Tiananmen were protesting for socialist democracy after the CCP’s turn to market reforms"
  #106  
Old 10-11-2019, 09:16 AM
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That's a reddit post, and it's complete horseshit. The students were out there mainly because of Hu Yaobang's death. He was a member (leader of the communist party IIRC) of the CCP working for reform of the CCP using the system, and with his death there had already been rollbacks of some of those reforms. So the students came out to honor and mourn the man and to call on the CCP to continue with the reforms that had already been put in place and were slated to go in. They weren't there for democracy, per se, nor to get rid of the CCP...they wanted change and reform within the system.

I could go into more detail, but with your usual drive by post I don't think it's worth the time. Feel free to post something other than a drive by link to another message board if you want to discuss this more. What I will say about Tiananmen showed the CCP that they could do something horrific, get a lot of flack from the west, but that within a short period we would cave in and be back trying to get into their good graces.
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  #107  
Old 10-11-2019, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by kayaker View Post
No. I thought it was racist/derogatory and coincidentally I had the chance to ask someone who is from China. He agreed. Looking for an authoritative cite online I see all sorts of talk on all sides. Maybe I'm off base here.
Thread on this subject here.
  #108  
Old 10-11-2019, 09:41 AM
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Thread on this subject here.
Thanks!
  #109  
Old 10-11-2019, 10:12 AM
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A very long list on Reddit, compiled, of Western companies or individuals that have been coerced by China because of some message China didn't like.
  #110  
Old 10-11-2019, 10:35 AM
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Yeah, double-fuck the NBA. We've finally found the sports association that makes the NFL look competent at PR.
I'm guessing you're not much of a sportsball fan. Adam Silver and the NBA are the only US major sports league that is (generally) good at PR - though this incident is obviously a major gaffe.
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  #111  
Old 10-11-2019, 11:36 AM
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Man, the Chinese, in a surprise decision, have...sit down everyone and prepare for a shock...they have BANNED SOUTH PARK!!

I can't believe it! It's shocking! They banned South Park! !!!

What is the world coming too? I think an apology...deepest, most heartfelt and abject apology...from the creators of South Park stating in no uncertain terms that they are sorry for offending the Chinese people is in order. Hopefully they are working on a new episode doing just that as we speak.

Also, in other news, Poo and Piglet have died. This has nothing to do with the CCP, and any rumors that Piglet was part of the strategic pork reserve and that some of Poo's organs have found their way into several prominent billionaires bodies have no...let me repeat, zero...basis in fact. It was an unfortunate smelting accident...
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  #112  
Old 10-11-2019, 12:20 PM
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1. I heard a guy on the radio yesterday complaining that the big names in basketball were ignorant or silent on China's treatment of Muslims.

I said to myself, this is why we have a government.

Instead, we expect twentysomething athletes, whose claim to fame is jumping up and down with a leather ball, to be the voice of reason regarding China's internal politics.

2 . Before we vilify the NBA over this, we should acknowledge that we all participate, rather deeply and willingly, in China's economy.

I'll leave off with this, if you want the Chinese people to enjoy more freedom, the way to get there is to keep an open relationship with Western Culture. The more they benefit financially, the more they see our rights and freedoms, the more likely it becomes that they will demand those rights from their government.
1. But as you surely realize, it's not that simple. The US media/entertainment complex lionizes twentysomething athletes for expressing political opinions on other things. Some of those things are arguably (may or may not be) closer to their own personal experiences (police and the justice system), but some really aren't (climate, environmental). It's not as simple IOW as every person with a high profile having a duty (or even unlimited right vis a vis their employer objecting to it being done on 'company time') to opine on things that are 'internal' but it being fine to duck other issues because those are external and those are the govt's job. Where I am to begin with rationalizing your argument to accept the obvious fact that not every issue is 'what the govt is for' therefore individuals don't need to express themselves about anything in the political realm.

Not entirely rejecting your point, just saying it's a lot muddier in reality. It also depends on degree. IOW the degree of difference between the level of big deal of players in the NFL about racism vs. standing for the national anthem, though OK that's 'our' issue. But then NBA players impose complete silence on themselves about Chinese Communist repression (which notice they have: at first a few apologized to or at least James Harden, now it's pretty much 100% radio silence which I expect to be permanent, I doubt you'll ever see NBA team expressions of solidarity with HK protester like displays of their solidarity with NFL players on the anthem thing). I see that degree of disparity as undercutting their credibility, not saying they as individuals have to care equally about the two issues, just a *huge* difference in their reactions based on their own economic interests. I also realize your statement might imply we shouldn't take athletes seriously as social spokespeople at all, but with other issues a lot of people do.

2. But the second part of your point there is the ostensible reason for the first. We 'willingly participate' partly on the idea that's for the benefit of freedom in China in the long run (though also to get more for our consumer $, and the trade also economically benefits people in China, whether it makes them freer or not). But the freedom part of argument has become weaker as China has greatly advanced economically but the Communist regime has become in important ways (not every way, granted) more oppressive.

And now China's economic clout is seriously affecting discussion outside China. As this episode shows again especially considering what you *don't* hear, people in the US (and other 'free world') academic, entertainment and media worlds calling out China in comparison to their activism on various other things and countries. For example in reality, as opposed to in Hollywood movies, 'powerful corporate interests' are not very effective in stifling criticism of corporate excess. The Chinese Communists OTOH are becoming pretty effective stifling criticism of them outside China (including by Hollywood), as a byproduct of China's greater economic heft.
  #113  
Old 10-11-2019, 01:35 PM
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If anyone is interested, here is China Uncensored's (YouTube video) quasi-humorous take on the NBA/China incident. Warning though...he does use the term 'kowtow'.
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  #114  
Old 10-12-2019, 01:02 AM
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A Yahoo! article on how China's people are taking it: https://www.yahoo.com/sports/nationa...051038855.html
  #115  
Old 10-12-2019, 05:41 AM
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Yeah. If you thought ugly American nationalism was fun just hold on to your hat.
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  #116  
Old 10-12-2019, 11:53 AM
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Here's a New York Times article that specifically mentions the term "political correctness," although it's more in the context of how Chinese people speak about things than how Westerners handle China: China's Political Correctness: One Country, No Arguments
  #117  
Old 10-12-2019, 02:17 PM
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A "superstar" German DJ has been "permanently banned" from China for liking a South Park tweet.
  #118  
Old 10-13-2019, 08:38 PM
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If money is the god that sports teams worship then they will eventually have to weigh the value of local dollars.
  #119  
Old 10-13-2019, 08:51 PM
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This is the point at which we must remind ourselves that the Chinese government hates basic freedoms.
I disagree. I think the Chinese government fears basic freedoms.
  #120  
Old 10-14-2019, 09:27 AM
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Seems to me that the NBA was making sufficient money before they started marketing in China. Sure, they can pay the players more by letting China dictate what they do or don't say, but is that money worth sacrificing their freedom of speech? I think not. I'd like the NBA to tell China to stop trying to dictate what US citizens say in their own country and if they don't like it, then find another professional basketball league to carry in the Chinese market.
  #121  
Old 10-15-2019, 07:06 AM
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And now we see LeBron James chiming in to say that Morey was "misinformed" when tweeting support for the Hong Kong people.
  #122  
Old 10-15-2019, 08:36 AM
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And now we see LeBron James chiming in to say that Morey was "misinformed" when tweeting support for the Hong Kong people.
More money talking. His brand will take a hit so he wants to remain neutral … which isn't surprising. Money rules the world.
Playing devils advocate, while the 1st amendment should be honored always, talking sometimes comes with repercussions and we all sometimes say things that we wouldn't normally say (or hold back from saying) due to context.

As a side note, he was actually one of the players on one of 5 teams that were IN China when Morey sent that tweet.
Whether he truly felt threatened or whether it's just a money thing, we may never know but regardless Morey's timing wasn't all that great.
  #123  
Old 10-15-2019, 09:21 AM
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His brand will take a hit so he wants to remain neutral … which isn't surprising.
But this isn't neutrality. By calling Morey "misinformed" and "uneducated," LeBron is taking China's side on the issue.

If he wanted to remain "neutral," he would have said "no comment" or something of that sort.
  #124  
Old 10-15-2019, 09:46 AM
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But this isn't neutrality. By calling Morey "misinformed" and "uneducated," LeBron is taking China's side on the issue.

If he wanted to remain "neutral," he would have said "no comment" or something of that sort.
The irony is that this won't sway anyone in China. The CCP propaganda machine and it's state run media lackey's are in full gear now. Along with the trade war the Chinese public is already in anti-western company mode anyway, so his statement isn't going to do anything except perhaps piss off his fans back in the US.

This attempt by western companies to stick their nose up the CCP's ass hasn't ever really worked well. But our companies and seemingly politicians and sports stars never seem to learn any lessons and they keep trying to do it...
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  #125  
Old 10-15-2019, 10:16 AM
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But this isn't neutrality. By calling Morey "misinformed" and "uneducated," LeBron is taking China's side on the issue.

If he wanted to remain "neutral," he would have said "no comment" or something of that sort.
His neutrality was wishing that Morey had said "no comment"
  #126  
Old 10-15-2019, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Kearsen1 View Post
His neutrality was wishing that Morey had said "no comment"
Without evident irony, James later admitted that he had no idea whether Morey was actually misinformed or not. "I have no idea, but that is just my belief."
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  #127  
Old 10-17-2019, 02:37 AM
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Seems to me that the NBA was making sufficient money [...]
(emphasis mine)
You just don't grok this whole "capitalism" thing, do you ?
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