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Old 07-14-2018, 02:18 PM
Kennedy1960 Kennedy1960 is offline
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What radicalized white voters in 2016?

My parents were born in 1954, kids of the 60s generation. My dad hated Vietnam and Richard Nixon and all he stood for. He was greatly traumatized by the nightly death tolls on TV from Nam. He tried to join but was rejected for hypertension; he saw friends come home mentally damaged from the war. He and my hardcore Democratic grandfather would get into fistfights over the war. He tore down my dad's poster which said something like "war is bad for children and other living things." He was mistreated and beaten by cops because he had long hair in the 60s and 70s. He cried the day the Gulf War began thinking it was the start of a second Vietnam. He felt it was another phony war that would result in boys dead.

My mother came from an apolitical family as far as she knew; I believe her father was a closet Socialist or left winger. My father voted straight Democratic from his first election in 72 all the way up to Obama in 12. He was somewhat socially conservative in that he was disgusted with B. Clinton's antics w/ Monica. My mother enthusiastically voted for Clinton in 96, Bush in 00 (which to this day she regrets) and John Kerry in 04. She would watch left wing programs in 03-04 and was a cheerleader against Iraq and Bush to anyone who would listen. Kerry's loss disheartened her so she never voted again after. My father, who grew up experiencing the end of segregation in the north, forced bussing, cried tears of happiness the night Obama was elected. He was hopeful. Maybe we'd finally all get along.

Then in 2015, suddenly mom turns into, and remains a rabid, really rabid, Trump supporter. She's seeing all this fake FB crap about Pizzagate and such and believing it. My dad is reeled in too, though less so, saying in 16 that having a businessman as President is a good idea. He now is no longer into politics, but my mom is a diehard Trumpist even now who is all over FB defending the guy. She's against Mexicans now when she never was before. She's against this and that, issues she never cared about before. We get into arguments over it. This from a woman who thought Bush was a war criminal and who thought Hugo Chavez was unfairly hounded by Bush.

I'm sure I'm not the only one with this sort of story. What made so many normally moderate to borderline hippie people become Trumpists overnight?
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Old 07-14-2018, 02:31 PM
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I see a lot of it as a backlash against Obama and his policies, maybe even his attitude and personality, elections seem to usually be a direct reaction to the administration that came before. The answers you get here will probably consist of your parents are virulent racists that hate black and brown people.
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Last edited by pool; 07-14-2018 at 02:31 PM.
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Old 07-14-2018, 02:40 PM
DrDeth DrDeth is online now
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Fake news. The Kremlin and Karl Rove really put out a lot of nasty lies during that period.

Also, the rust belt- people wanted to be told lies that their old factory jobs and way of life was gonna come back. (It's not, and it can't). Trump was smart enough to see this and tap into it. The Dems just waved vague help programs.

So, basically- lies.
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Old 07-14-2018, 02:46 PM
DavidwithanR DavidwithanR is online now
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Fear.

Trump has taken advantage of the fact that people are afraid of losing, afraid of being taken advantage of, afraid of being hoaxed, and has stuck labels on various things saying "Be Afraid Of This!!!" People say inside their minds "I knew I was afraid of something, that must be it! He is so right!" - when in fact they were never afraid of those things before and still have no reason to be.

But in fact Trump's message itself is the hoax. People have been conned by a guy who's screaming at them to beware of cons.
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Old 07-14-2018, 02:53 PM
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I have been told two things. Firstly many poor white people felt that they had nothing left to lose. Secondly, many felt that white men are constantly demonised by the left which understandably grated.
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Old 07-14-2018, 02:54 PM
MichaelEmouse MichaelEmouse is online now
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White Christians used to be able to believe that the US was "their" country, hence the calls to "take back our country" and return to the '50s. Black president + gay marriage + pot legalization are big cues that their tribe is no longer on top.


Add to that that conservatives tend to have an overactive disgust response and old people tend to have an overactive fear response. That mixes well with xenophobia and fundamentalism, especially if you're a dim & old in the boondocks. Metropolitan areas have overall improved but small towns in the US have not done well.

I suppose another angle to the question would be: "Why are baby boomers, collectively, such a bunch of jackasses?" which I'll let someone else answer.

Last edited by MichaelEmouse; 07-14-2018 at 02:57 PM.
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Old 07-14-2018, 03:04 PM
guizot guizot is offline
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No one was "radicalized" in 2016, so the very premise of the OP is dubious.

Certain people were duped, as explained above, because they're too civically lazy and ignorant to see what a bullshitter Trump is. He was able to exploit that, and combine their votes with the nationalists and the opportunists, to piece together just enough votes--in just the right places--to squeak by an electoral college win.

And if the OP's parents were really like that, though, they're more the exception than the rule.

If you call suckers "radicalized" then you're just as duped as they were.

Last edited by guizot; 07-14-2018 at 03:05 PM.
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Old 07-14-2018, 03:28 PM
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Secondly, many felt that white men are constantly demonised by the left which understandably grated.
Right wing radio was very successful in spreading this false meme. The vast majority of the left, including every liberal and progressive in high office, does not demonize white men in any way at all.
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Old 07-14-2018, 03:34 PM
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No one was "radicalized" in 2016 ...
Ding ding.

Or at least more "radicalized" than they have been for a long time now. They were just hungrier for the win while the D side kept litigating the primary and failed to come up with a campaign that really inspired. Maybe some misogyny too.

The result was not a surge in Whites voting for Trump.
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Romney got 59 percent of the white vote in 2012 and still lost the election, leading many analysts to reach the conclusion that America had become too diverse for Republicans to win without making major inroads among voters of color. Trump, however, won the election with just 58 percent of the white vote thanks to Clinton slipping to 37 percent down from Obama’s 39 percent with the excess going third party.
Not saying folk like the op's mom don't exist. There has been a group of middle class whites, often rural and undereducated, getting hollowed out and moving into positions of economic insecurity. HRC failed to realize that she really should include them as well as among those who "ladders of opportunity" should be extended to, hence Trump was the one appealing to them, with false promises but hey.

But the result was not that more overall voted for him as much as they declined to vote for her.
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Old 07-14-2018, 03:45 PM
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I see a lot of it as a backlash against Obama and his policies, maybe even his attitude and personality, elections seem to usually be a direct reaction to the administration that came before. The answers you get here will probably consist of your parents are virulent racists that hate black and brown people.
I think the 2000s were a painful decade for White America. We had 9/11, two major wars without end, and a financial crisis that wiped out trillions in wealth. What struck me was how quickly white voters who had supported Obama turned against him when the tea party started calling him a socialist, fascist dictator. I get the sense that a lot of white voters who voted for Obama were never completely comfortable with their vote, but gave him a chance because they were terrified for the future of the country and saw that McCain and Palin were completely unprepared to deal with the crisis.

I agree that Trump was a reaction to Obama, but the irony is that Obama's actual policies have remained popular. People like Obamacare, and don't want to lose it. Hell even Republican governors are in on Medicaid expansion. And people like some of his other policies, too, for example taking advantage of the housing rebates in 2009 and 2010. That's the thing: many of Obama's economy policies were actually tax breaks, and contained elements of something that would have been mainstream GOP in the 1980s.

The challenge that Obama faced is the fact that conservative policies have caused dislocation, not just of whites but everyone else. But whites feel like they are losing, and some stats support that suspicion. White longevity is in decline. African Americans have made more significant education gains. Spanish is the fastest growing language in America and Islam is the fastest growing religion. The highest paying fields - engineering, IT, the health sciences - have large numbers of non-whites, many of whom come from other countries. There is a sense among whites that their country is gone. It's not that all Trump-leaning voters blamed Obama for it, but I get the impression that by voting for Trump, they're restoring the proper order of things in their view. I don't think you'll ever get them to come out and say it, and I'm not even sure they're aware of their own biases.

Last edited by asahi; 07-14-2018 at 03:46 PM.
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Old 07-14-2018, 03:47 PM
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From what I've read on this board, she's a horrible racist, sexist and general bigot and probably wants to lynch everyone who's not a rich white man...you should probably check her house for lynchin' bits.

Or maybe she just likes Trump, he is fairly upbeat and says a lot of yay America! stuff.
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Old 07-14-2018, 03:47 PM
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The Internet, demographic change and the completeness trend of identity politics and the fact that we only have two parties. Part of it is that due to demographic changes, both parties no longer have to fight over white working class voters. Republicans still need them and Democrats don't. Democrats know that their coalition is minorities and the highly educated. They barely pay lip service to white working class people. That pushes them into Republican hands. They feel that Democrats will always prioritize other issues over them. I don't know that they're wrong in that assessment. The rise of the Internet has also allowed both sides to see exactly what the most hateful of the other party thinks of them. Look at this thread, mostly it's liberals posting and so far I've seen the adjectives of "dim, lazy, ignorant, jackasses" to describe them. If you were a rural conservative, would you want to ally with people who think of you like this? Why would you trust a politician with that base of support to represent your interests? The reality is that the radicalization has happened on both sides, we just tend to see our side as correct and the other side as loonies.

I saw this most clearly in one of the debates in 2016. The Democratic position of even a decade ago was that abortions should be "safe, legal and rare." It gave people in the middle somewhere they could land. The last cycle, Clinton went off this talking point and seemed to come down firmly on abortion whenever and wherever. It didn't seem to even throw the middle a bone. I remember during the debate looking at my wife and saying, "Crap, she just lost a million votes."

I think that many of these voters aren't radicalized so much as they feel completely unrepresented, but that the Democrats are actively hostile to them and at least the Repiblicans will pretend to like them.
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Old 07-14-2018, 03:48 PM
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Trump told a lot of lies and too many people wanted to believe him.
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Old 07-14-2018, 03:54 PM
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They barely pay lip service to white working class people. That pushes them into Republican hands. They feel that Democrats will always prioritize other issues over them. I don't know that they're wrong in that assessment.
Let me clear that up for you. "They" are wrong.

The Democrats don't dismiss white people. They tell white people that they'll get just as much as everyone else.

The Republicans tell white people that they'll get more than anyone else. Some white people think that's a better deal.

Of course, the white people who believe this usually end up getting less from the Republicans than they would have gotten from the Democrats.
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Old 07-14-2018, 03:56 PM
Llama Llogophile Llama Llogophile is online now
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I don't think very many people were radicalized. I think a lot of people who had a well of anger / fear / other unpleasant feelings simply had their chance to vote for someone of the same sorry ilk.

About ten years ago I remember meeting a guy - an older white guy - who hated immigrants and wanted mounted machine guns on a border wall. Not an exaggeration, that was his actual idea. It was a bizarre experience very much like the first time I encountered an openly racist person (not sure about this guy's race ideas, but I wouldn't be surprised if he was similarly odious on that). When he got going he was red in the face and spitting as he ranted. This was a guy who ran a small business and seemed otherwise friendly and mostly sane.

I have no doubt, if he's still alive, that he would be a Trump voter. And unfortunately, there are others like him.

My feelings about these people are pretty much the same as what I told him at the time when I responded to his machine guns on the wall proposal: "Um... I think we can think of something better than that."
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Old 07-14-2018, 04:19 PM
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Trump is an iconoclast, blasting through the status quo like a bull in a china shop and not giving a damn who doesn't like it. This appeals to those who think we've reached the "burn it down and start over" point.

My half-brother who is in his seventies and has been a self-identified liberal all his life was complaining to me that in his opinion the Left has become dominated by a lunatic fringe that has completely alienated the moderate-left.
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Old 07-14-2018, 04:20 PM
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I saw this most clearly in one of the debates in 2016. The Democratic position of even a decade ago was that abortions should be "safe, legal and rare." It gave people in the middle somewhere they could land. The last cycle, Clinton went off this talking point and seemed to come down firmly on abortion whenever and wherever. It didn't seem to even throw the middle a bone. I remember during the debate looking at my wife and saying, "Crap, she just lost a million votes."
What else would you expect from the woman who murdered Vince Foster and Seth Rich, and ran a pedophile ring out of a pizza joint?
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Old 07-14-2018, 04:28 PM
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My half-brother who is in his seventies and has been a self-identified liberal all his life was complaining to me that in his opinion the Left has become dominated by a lunatic fringe that has completely alienated the moderate-left.
As a data point, I consider myself part of the moderate left and I don't see this as having happened. Maybe it's just hanging out on this message board that makes me consider myself a moderate liberal because there are so many people to the left of me here, but I see hardly any equally-far-liberal politicians in the Democratic leadership as compared to here.

Although it is true that since the early 2000s the policies of the Democratic party have drifted more liberal socially in an absolute sense, they've simply kept apace with the actual cultural shift in terms of same sex and transgender rights. So I can see if you're an old person who has conservative views in those areas it might seem that they've drifted to the lunatic fringe because their evolving views that continue to occupy the 50%-75% moderate liberal quartile have drifted away from your static views.
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Old 07-14-2018, 04:50 PM
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Right wing radio was very successful in spreading this false meme. The vast majority of the left, including every liberal and progressive in high office, does not demonize white men in any way at all.
Unfortunately, as any advertiser will tell you, the perception is the reality.
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Old 07-14-2018, 04:55 PM
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Trump told a lot of lies and too many people wanted to believe him.
I must disagree with this. From what I recall being told at the time, voters knew he was lieing, but he was lieing openly. They knew he was lieing and he knew that they knew. And they knew that he knew that they knew. This was in stark contrast to Clinton, who was speaking sideways and being deceptive.
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Old 07-14-2018, 05:01 PM
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Nothing radical about opposition to the Viet Nam War, it was an entirely sensible and reasonable position that could be held without any reference to an overarching political position. "Radical" was mostly a smear having more to do with presumed lack of patriotism than anything else. It was more an emotional response to a refusal to support any and all US military action, regardless.

Opposition to an incredibly stupid, expensive and futile war isn't radical. By the way, anyone know how that Grenada Memorial is coming along?
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Old 07-14-2018, 06:18 PM
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I think there were a few things that made Trump possible in 2016:

1) The normal backlash you get after a 2-term president.
2) The leftover malaise from the great recession. Even though the overall economy had recovered, and we were pretty much back to normal, there were large areas of the country that had not really recovered all that much. These were rural areas, often hard-hit by drugs, and by plant closures.
3) The fractured primary of the Republican party was an ugly thing to behold, where there were a bunch of candidates splitting the vote early. This is where the real radicalization took place, within the primaries, with the most motivated voters. There's probably about 10 to 15% of the country on either side that's absolutely crazy, and these people went with Trump on the Republican side.

Under the backdrop of all of that, it was a great place for a demagogue to show up and blame others - mostly minority groups - for people's own problems. It cleared the way for the racists to start coming out from behind their sheets, and it just made for a really awful situation in the primaries. It felt like the completion of a process of radicalization that began back in 2008 within the Republican party. The party is sick at its core, and that gave a guy like Trump an opening.

Once Trump got to the General Election, it was mostly people lining up and voting for their party, as usual.

On this board, I might have a different view than some others: I used to be a strong Republican. I used to believe all their bullshit. When Trump won the primaries, I left the party. I had supported Kasich, but he's now seen as some sort of liberal by the rank-and-file primary voter on the Republican side. And seeing the party bow down to Trump is a very very sad thing to watch. But it cleared my head, and made me realize that I made the right decision. Moderate to center-right have mostly been purged from the party. It's all Trump, all the time, now in the party. It's his party.

Last edited by survinga; 07-14-2018 at 06:19 PM.
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Old 07-14-2018, 06:18 PM
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Because Trump was willing to say what was on many people's minds - things many people thought or felt but didn't dare say out loud.

That, and also, Trump was the candidate to vote for if one wanted to see something radically different for once. If you, a football fan, could choose one of two teams to win next year's Super Bowl, would you rather it be the New England Patriots - who have already been the NFL's dominant dynasty over the past 17 years - or the Cleveland Browns, who have never come close to winning a Super Bowl and whose championship would shock the sporting world?
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Old 07-14-2018, 06:32 PM
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...I'm sure I'm not the only one with this sort of story. What made so many normally moderate to borderline hippie people become Trumpists overnight?
Black success and achievement

Last edited by Huey Freeman; 07-14-2018 at 06:33 PM.
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Old 07-14-2018, 06:48 PM
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Unfortunately, as any advertiser will tell you, the perception is the reality.
Advertisers are wrong on this. Obviously perception affects politics, but reality is reality, and it's important that we recognize that, while at the same time trying to fight lies and smears.
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Old 07-14-2018, 11:20 PM
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... they were terrified for the future of the country and saw that McCain and Palin were completely unprepared to deal with the crisis.
I can't say if McCain was prepared or unprepared for a crisis. Palin, however... not prepared for anything, let alone a crisis.
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Old 07-14-2018, 11:22 PM
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Because Trump was willing to say what was on many people's minds - things many people thought or felt but didn't dare say out loud.
If this is true, then Americans are a thoroughly depraved bunch.
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Old 07-14-2018, 11:28 PM
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Trump is an iconoclast, blasting through the status quo like a bull in a china shop and not giving a damn who doesn't like it. This appeals to those who think we've reached the "burn it down and start over" point.
Except that Trump has no clue what starting over would mean. He's exclusively burning things down, and leaving the corpses for someone else to find.
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Old 07-14-2018, 11:41 PM
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Because Trump was willing to say what was on many people's minds - things many people thought or felt but didn't dare say out loud.

That, and also, Trump was the candidate to vote for if one wanted to see something radically different for once. If you, a football fan, could choose one of two teams to win next year's Super Bowl, would you rather it be the New England Patriots - who have already been the NFL's dominant dynasty over the past 17 years - or the Cleveland Browns, who have never come close to winning a Super Bowl and whose championship would shock the sporting world?
What about when one of the teams puts out a video of themselves mistreating women, runs ads claiming that there will be new NFL franchises in Flint and Gary, and promises not to sell tickets to Mexicans?
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Old 07-15-2018, 05:39 AM
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What about when one of the teams puts out a video of themselves mistreating women, runs ads claiming that there will be new NFL franchises in Flint and Gary, and promises not to sell tickets to Mexicans?
Perhaps the more apt metaphor would be wrestling fans voting for a heel.
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Old 07-15-2018, 07:06 AM
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If this is true, then Americans are a thoroughly depraved bunch.
Most Americans are also dumb and ignorant as shit.


Look, Hilary Clinton proposed some reasonable, thoughtful plans for helping to improve the country with a little hard work.

Trump told people that America was the best and that we were getting fucked over by shifty foreigners, sneaky immigrants, lying Liberals and didn't require anyone to do anything. He also declared "facts" to be no longer relevant so his supporters were no longer required to put up with pesky "logic" and "reason".




Who do you think the average Fox News watching flag waving moron is going to vote for?
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Old 07-15-2018, 07:28 AM
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Or maybe she just likes Trump, he is fairly upbeat and says a lot of yay America! stuff.
Ladies and gentlemen, I give you exhibit A.

Just “liking Trump” does not justify or excuse belief in blatantly false and empirically disproven conspiracy theories. Attempting to conflate willful ignorance with “liking Trump” is what makes conversation impossible. You are deliberately ignoring OP’s actual criticism.
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Old 07-15-2018, 08:16 AM
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Advertisers are wrong on this. Obviously perception affects politics, but reality is reality, and it's important that we recognize that, while at the same time trying to fight lies and smears.
In the long view yes, but all Trump had to do was fool enough people for a short period of time - until Election Day. They perceived him as the better choice and that was that.
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Old 07-15-2018, 09:09 AM
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The vast majority of the left, including every liberal and progressive in high office, does not demonize white men in any way at all.
I've read on this very board that everyone is a racist, which I take to mean all white people are racists.
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Old 07-15-2018, 09:58 AM
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I've read on this very board that everyone is a racist, which I take to mean all white people are racists.
I've read on this very board that the Jews control world finance. I've read on this board that black people are savages.

That really doesn't tell us anything except that bigots exist and are allowed to post on this board.
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Old 07-15-2018, 10:19 AM
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Because Trump was willing to say what was on many people's minds - things many people thought or felt but didn't dare say out loud.
Could you give a couple examples?
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Old 07-15-2018, 10:25 AM
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Could you give a couple examples?
A lot of people thought Obama was born in Kenya, even though there was no evidence of this and plenty of evidence he was born in Hawaii. A lot of people thought people with Mexican ancestry couldn't do certain jobs, like be a judge. A lot of people thought we should ban Muslims from entering the country.
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Old 07-15-2018, 10:30 AM
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A lot of people thought Obama was born in Kenya, even though there was no evidence of this and plenty of evidence he was born in Hawaii. A lot of people thought people with Mexican ancestry couldn't do certain jobs, like be a judge. A lot of people thought we should ban Muslims from entering the country.
Ok. To be fair tho, the only reason a lot of people thought Obama was from Kenya was because Trump basically originated (and certainly broadcast) the rumor. So he was "saying what everyone believed" because HE made them believe it.
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Old 07-15-2018, 10:33 AM
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Ok. To be fair tho, the only reason a lot of people thought Obama was from Kenya was because Trump basically originated (and certainly broadcast) the rumor. So he was "saying what everyone believed" because HE made them believe it.
Yeah, though I think some are more susceptible to the idea that "that black President isn't really American" than others.
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Old 07-15-2018, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
A lot of people thought Obama was born in Kenya, even though there was no evidence of this and plenty of evidence he was born in Hawaii. A lot of people thought people with Mexican ancestry couldn't do certain jobs, like be a judge. A lot of people thought we should ban Muslims from entering the country.
And alot of people thought there was no problem with Trump re-tweeting factually incorrect inter-racial crime statistics that cast black people in a bad light.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...icide-victims/

And it didn't bother them when he pretended not to know anything about David Duke.

And when he encouraged violence at his campaign rallies, I'm pretty sure alot of his base were thinking, "Damn Straight!"
  #41  
Old 07-15-2018, 11:22 AM
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In the case of my Southern friends and family, it’s racism against Hispanics. Not blacks.

Because black people have been their neighbors, coworkers and friend for decades now. My 90 year old mother has been known to go on rants about how Black Lives Matter. CNN’s United Shades of America is their favorite TV show. My brother threw an alarm salesman off the property with several choice words after he intimated that we might need an alarm system because we had black neighbors. Most of the young people in my nephews wedding party were black. There was the time I caught my nephews then fiancé making a face when I mentioned a mutual friend and her black boyfriend, but when I said something to my nephew he laughed and said it was because she used to date the guy.

But they get tweaked when they hear people speaking Spanish in public. Even though none of them has ever lost a job to a Hispanic immigrant, they see Hispanics working construction and think “those guys are taking jobs away from real Americans”. They see Hispanics with large families and think they are in danger of becoming a minority. It’s easy to sell them on the Trump “immigrants are destroying the country” rhetoric because they want to buy it. And because of that, they support heartless and economically unsound anti-immigrant policies.

It’s maddening.
  #42  
Old 07-15-2018, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
I've read on this very board that the Jews control world finance. I've read on this board that black people are savages.

That really doesn't tell us anything except that bigots exist and are allowed to post on this board.
If memory serves, it got more respect and less derision than slurs of black people or Jews would have.
  #43  
Old 07-15-2018, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Lumpy View Post
Trump is an iconoclast, blasting through the status quo like a bull in a china shop and not giving a damn who doesn't like it.
No, I'm sorry, but Trump is no iconoclast. He's pure, classic, politician. He did exactly what Ted Cruz had been trying to do for so long, but just employed reality TV bullshit and public imagery, which many dupes (who watch nothing but reality TV) easily fell for.

Trump is the logical result of modern media/entertainment consumption, and really, not much more than that.

That Trump is an "iconoclast" is the cliche that lazy media use over and over again, since it sounds intellectual, but of course all that really does is feed his base, because they like to flatter themselves (and him) with that idea. In reality, it's all just an act--a dog and pony show.

The political pundits and the media are reluctant to just face this fully, and instead continue to analyze and talk about Trump as though he were some kind of meaningful, coherent ideology, because, after all, it's their bread and butter to explain things--that's how they make their money. They talk about "Trumpism," which is just bullshit. But in fact, there is very little to explain in this regard. It's better for them to examine all the craven opportunism that is going on behind Trump, while he distracts everyone like the Wizard of Oz--the man behind the curtain.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambivalid
. . . the only reason a lot of people thought Obama was from Kenya was because Trump basically originated (and certainly broadcast) the rumor. So he was "saying what everyone believed" because HE made them believe it.
Thank you for pointing that out. A perfect example of my point.
  #44  
Old 07-15-2018, 04:03 PM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is online now
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Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
Let me clear that up for you. "They" are wrong.

The Democrats don't dismiss white people. They tell white people that they'll get just as much as everyone else.

The Republicans tell white people that they'll get more than anyone else. Some white people think that's a better deal.

Of course, the white people who believe this usually end up getting less from the Republicans than they would have gotten from the Democrats.
And they are fine with that, as long as "those people" get even less than that.
  #45  
Old 07-15-2018, 04:51 PM
carnivorousplant carnivorousplant is online now
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Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
And they are fine with that, as long as "those people" get even less than that.
Some folks perceive benefits for poverty level citizens, for example, food stamps, and taking something from them and giving it to those who do not deserve it. There is some abuse of food stamps, but Maimonides wrote, "If you give money to ten beggars, and nine have lied to you, you have done a good thing." Food stamps involve something around .02% of the government budget. There are more important things to be concerned about.
  #46  
Old 07-15-2018, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by carnivorousplant View Post
Some folks perceive benefits for poverty level citizens, for example, food stamps, and taking something from them and giving it to those who do not deserve it. There is some abuse of food stamps, but Maimonides wrote, "If you give money to ten beggars, and nine have lied to you, you have done a good thing." Food stamps involve something around .02% of the government budget. There are more important things to be concerned about.
The only thing I would quibble on, is that I feel the quote is insufficient.

"If you give money to ten beggars, and ten have lied to you, you have done a good thing."
  #47  
Old 07-15-2018, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Ambivalid View Post
Could you give a couple examples?
Many Americans felt white people were now a discriminated-against race, that white men in particular were the targets of the "punching up" phenomenon, that political correctness was becoming 1984 Orwellian, that the country was changing dramatically in a direction they didn't like, that illegal immigrants should be deported, that America was becoming an Emperor's New Clothes society, that the mainstream media was heavily liberal, that Hollywood was elitist and liberal, that flyover America was ignored, that Christianity was under persecution in America, that telling the truth now resulted in societal punishment, that SJWs were histrionic and unreasonable, that America was no longer "great" and needed to be revived.


Whether these things are true or not is irrelevant as far as votes are concerned. What matters is that Trump's message clicked with many millions of Americans who felt this way.
  #48  
Old 07-15-2018, 05:08 PM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is online now
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Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
Many Americans felt white people were now a discriminated-against race, that white men in particular were the targets of the "punching up" phenomenon, that political correctness was becoming 1984 Orwellian, that the country was changing dramatically in a direction they didn't like, that illegal immigrants should be deported, that America was becoming an Emperor's New Clothes society, that the mainstream media was heavily liberal, that Hollywood was elitist and liberal, that flyover America was ignored, that Christianity was under persecution in America, that telling the truth now resulted in societal punishment, that SJWs were histrionic and unreasonable, that America was no longer "great" and needed to be revived.


Whether these things are true or not is irrelevant as far as votes are concerned. What matters is that Trump's message clicked with many millions of Americans who felt this way.
Because they were told to feel this way by the right wing radio and Fox News that they consumed.
  #49  
Old 07-15-2018, 05:13 PM
carnivorousplant carnivorousplant is online now
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Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
Because they were told to feel this way by the right wing radio and Fox News that they consumed.
But why do they listen to that drivel?
  #50  
Old 07-15-2018, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by carnivorousplant View Post
But why do they listen to that drivel?
Because a lot of people feel some group of "They" are getting ahead at the expense of hard-working, God-fearing folks like themselves, while "we" are stuck with the bill.

Trump and his ilk found an incredible bunch of different "They." Depending on what you were sensitive about "They" were Latin Americans who stole our menial jobs, Asians who stole our manufacturing technology, faceless bureaucrats who made us quit mining coal and priced healthcare out the market, uppity black football players who didn't respect the flag - you name it, there's a "They" who's our enemy, and Trump will smite them.
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