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Old 05-17-2012, 02:14 PM
Elendil's Heir Elendil's Heir is offline
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Speaking Elvish for Pentecost

Old thread: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...d.php?t=423233

After a hiatus of a couple of years, my Episcopal church is once again having parishioners "speak in tongues" for the Pentecost reading, Acts 2:1-21. I'll be reading just a small portion, Acts 2:12-14:

12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?
Ar neltë illi quantë elmendo, ar úmer tancë, quétina minë i exenna: Mana tëasin

13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.
Exi quenter yaiwessë: Neri sinë nar quantë vinya limpëo.

14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
Mal Péter, ortala as i minquë, ortanë ómarya ar quentë tienna: A neri Yúrëo,ar ilyë i marir Yerúsalemessë, na sin istaina len, ar lasta quettanyannar:

Don't know yet what other non-English languages will be heard, but in years past it's included Spanish, German, Russian, French and Czech.
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Old 05-17-2012, 02:38 PM
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Cool. I once did a Pentecostal reading in Arabic,* but I've never heard one with any Middle-Earth languages.



*Yes, I'm a lifelong atheist but a ten-year Episcopalian church choir veteran. Episcopalians tend to be cool that way.
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Old 05-17-2012, 02:39 PM
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Just say:

Ash nazg durbatulak, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatuluk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul!

Ask the sound man for an echo-effect, you can borrow my fog machine.

Last edited by BMalion; 05-17-2012 at 02:40 PM.
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Old 05-17-2012, 02:42 PM
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Ashmont Dumbledore?

WHO GOT SALAMI! WHO GOT SALAMI!

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Old 05-17-2012, 02:43 PM
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Q: How do you say "nerd" in Elvish?
A: Quenya or Sindarin?
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Old 05-17-2012, 03:24 PM
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If you were a real nerd, you'd use the secret tongue of the Dwarves.
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Old 05-17-2012, 03:40 PM
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How about Pig Latin?

Andway eythay ereway allway amazedway, andway ereway inway oubtday, ayingsay oneway otay anotherway, Atwhay eanethmay isthay?

Last edited by Eve; 05-17-2012 at 03:40 PM.
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Old 05-17-2012, 04:06 PM
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You are my kind of nerd, Elendil's Heir.

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Old 05-17-2012, 04:13 PM
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*Yes, I'm a lifelong atheist but a ten-year Episcopalian church choir veteran. Episcopalians tend to be cool that way.
"Atheist, schmatheist...Kimstu is the only one who can keep in pitch. You think we're gonna say 'no, thank you'?"
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Old 05-17-2012, 04:19 PM
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At one of the Episcopal churches I've been a member of, the organist was Jewish.

I've never heard of this reading in different languages for Pentecost custom. But I'm not a cradle Episcopal - grew up Southern Baptist. Left all of that but the old hymns behind. Discovered that the Episcopalians were the fun Christians in college. Now I'm a doubter, but still a member of an Episcopal church - one that includes many gay members and couples. We also have a divorced female priest and have wine parties for Easter.
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Old 05-17-2012, 05:03 PM
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I've never heard of this reading in different languages for Pentecost custom. But I'm not a cradle Episcopal - grew up Southern Baptist.
Nor have I, and I have some background in the Episcopal church. Actually I don't remember anyone ever speaking in tongues at our church. Had some exposure to it at Pentecostal churches, and it seemed to be something that was supposed to come to you rather than being planned--- someone would start it "spontaneously" and others would join in with their own babble.

And yes, if you've never been exposed to it and are wondering, it is completely bizarre to be in the midst of---and while I'm aware of the phenomenon of glossolalia, the "speaking in tongues" I personally witnessed always struck me as rather forced. (But then, most of the time so did prayer.)
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Old 05-17-2012, 05:11 PM
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I'll be reading in Korean come Pentecost!

I don't really speak it anymore, other than a few phrases. But han-gul is phonetic, and I have a Korean New Testament. So I can go to the correct verses, write it out phonetically in Roman script, and hope no Koreans are there to hear my terrible accent.

Our congregation does the readings simultaneously, not concurrently, to give an idea of the confusion the first hearers of the Word heard when the Holy Spirit "lit up" the disciples.

well he's back, the dean of our cathedral, Father Lipscomb grew up Southern Baptist. Talk about a change!

Last edited by Baker; 05-17-2012 at 05:13 PM.
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Old 05-17-2012, 05:37 PM
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Awesome!

You could consider substituting Onda for Peter, since Onda means stone in Quenya.

Let's hear how it's received, after the event!
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Old 05-17-2012, 05:37 PM
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My church--which is United Methodist--has been known to have people pray the Lord's prayer in multiple languages--I know at least one year we had German, Swahili (or another African language) and French. All but the French were spoken by native speakers.
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Old 05-17-2012, 05:59 PM
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Very cool. Ever thought of doing it in Tsolyani?
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Old 05-17-2012, 09:30 PM
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I read again the ole thread linked to in the OP of this one.

Did anyone ever find it in Klingon?
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Old 05-17-2012, 09:34 PM
BrainGlutton BrainGlutton is offline
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Waitaminnit, what's all this nonsense about using actual languages?! That ain't glossolalia! Not even if it's Elvish or Klingon!

Last edited by BrainGlutton; 05-17-2012 at 09:35 PM.
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Old 05-17-2012, 10:17 PM
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Waitaminnit, what's all this nonsense about using actual languages?! That ain't glossolalia! Not even if it's Elvish or Klingon!
But, but, we can't risk anything that might resemble glossolalia--someone might think we were Pentecostalists.

I'm not joking--although I'm not sure how many people would be likely to mistake an average United Methodist church for a group of Pentecostalists, glossolalia or no glossolalia.

Last edited by Eureka; 05-17-2012 at 10:19 PM.
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Old 05-17-2012, 11:03 PM
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While when Episcopalians speak in tongues they ask for tea in Received Pronunciation.
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Old 05-17-2012, 11:20 PM
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The best Klinzhai translation I get is:
2:12 | chaH were Hoch amazed, je were perplexed, ja'ta' wa' Daq another, “ nuq ta'taH vam mean?”
2:13 | Others, mocking, ja'ta', “ chaH 'oH tebta' tlhej chu' HIq.”
2:14 | 'ach Peter, standing Dung tlhej the eleven, qengta' Dung Daj ghogh, je jatlhta' pa' Daq chaH, “ SoH loDpu' vo' Judea, je Hoch SoH 'Iv
2:14 yIn Daq Jerusalem, chaw' vam taH Sovta' Daq SoH, je 'Ij Daq wIj mu'mey.

Obviously, there are still some words missing from the vocabulary database.
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Old 05-17-2012, 11:22 PM
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But, but, we can't risk anything that might resemble glossolalia--someone might think we were Pentecostalists.
Ayup. Punchline of an old joke: "Shhh sir, this is the Episcopal Church! This is NO place to have the 'spirit move you'!"
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Old 05-17-2012, 11:34 PM
Elendil's Heir Elendil's Heir is offline
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...Our congregation does the readings simultaneously, not concurrently, to give an idea of the confusion the first hearers of the Word heard when the Holy Spirit "lit up" the disciples....
That's how we usually do it, too. A little different this year.
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Old 05-18-2012, 02:27 AM
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I'll be reading in Korean come Pentecost!

I don't really speak it anymore, other than a few phrases. But han-gul is phonetic, and I have a Korean New Testament. So I can go to the correct verses, write it out phonetically in Roman script, and hope no Koreans are there to hear my terrible accent.
This got way clearer once my bleary eyes realized the word was not "Koran".

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Our congregation does the readings simultaneously, not concurrently, to give an idea of the confusion the first hearers of the Word heard when the Holy Spirit "lit up" the disciples.
And the difference between "simultaneous" and "concurrent" would be...?

Ideally to get the proper Pentecost experience there should be native speakers of all these languages in your congregation, so that all manner of foreigners are suddenly hearing God's word in their native language, as it happened then. Even without, though, this sounds pretty cool.
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Old 05-18-2012, 04:16 AM
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Ah, Malacandra, I meant consecutive!
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Old 05-18-2012, 06:58 AM
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Waitaminnit, what's all this nonsense about using actual languages?! That ain't glossolalia! Not even if it's Elvish or Klingon!
Yes, and if you read the Pentecost story in the Acts of the Apostles, glossolalia is exactly what did not happen. The Apostles began to speak in languages they did not know, and the people around them could understand them. They weren't speaking nonsense and claiming it was the language of the angels, they were speaking real languages without ever having to learn them.

As a language geek and a nine-year Catholic school veteran, this misinterpretation of "speaking in tongues" vaguely bothers me, even though as an atheist I really shouldn't give a fig.
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Old 05-18-2012, 07:44 AM
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Can you do it in the binary language of moisture vaperators?
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Old 05-18-2012, 09:18 AM
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Onda means stone in Quenya.
It also means 'evil' in Swedish!

-Olentzero, who absolutely refuses to learn the Internationale in Klingon. I have my limits...
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Old 05-18-2012, 10:09 AM
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Can you do it in the binary language of moisture vaperators?
Of course! I once did it in the language of Binary Load Lifters, very similar to Vaporators.
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Old 05-18-2012, 10:48 AM
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Awesome!

You could consider substituting Onda for Peter, since Onda means stone in Quenya.

Let's hear how it's received, after the event!
But the different words meaning Peter are not the words meaning stone in each language, and there are many languages (English among them) where the name derives from the name in another language and not from the word meaning stone; in the different versions of the Bible I'm familiar with, Peter is only called Stone in the story about where he got his nick.


Add me to the list of people who hear of someone speaking uncomprehensibly getting commingled with what happened to the Apostles and goes

Last edited by Nava; 05-18-2012 at 10:50 AM.
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Old 05-18-2012, 11:29 AM
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But the different words meaning Peter are not the words meaning stone in each language, and there are many languages (English among them) where the name derives from the name in another language and not from the word meaning stone; in the different versions of the Bible I'm familiar with, Peter is only called Stone in the story about where he got his nick.
A more idomatic English nickname for Peter would be "Rocky."

My Episcopal church is pretty cool but I don't recall us doing the multiple-language Pentecost readings before. I might suggest it for next year.
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Old 05-18-2012, 02:37 PM
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A more idomatic English nickname for Peter would be "Rocky."
thus the 4th volume of Gospel of Peter* telling the tale of his fight in the Colisseum against the famous Roman Gladiator "Dracus".







*possibly apocryphal
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Old 05-18-2012, 02:43 PM
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Yes, and if you read the Pentecost story in the Acts of the Apostles, glossolalia is exactly what did not happen. The Apostles began to speak in languages they did not know, and the people around them could understand them. They weren't speaking nonsense and claiming it was the language of the angels, they were speaking real languages without ever having to learn them.

As a language geek and a nine-year Catholic school veteran, this misinterpretation of "speaking in tongues" vaguely bothers me, even though as an atheist I really shouldn't give a fig.
Hm. So, it's really the Pentecostals who are doing it wrong!

(But their way looks more fun . . . spiritually speaking . . . That dude in Borat, man, what was he on?!)

Last edited by BrainGlutton; 05-18-2012 at 02:44 PM.
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Old 05-18-2012, 03:21 PM
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Old 05-18-2012, 03:56 PM
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We are doing the same in my (Lutheran) church. I am doing either German, or Greek. Other languages represented will be French, Spanish, Baya (however it is spelled - our pastor was a missionary for twelve years in Cameroon), Norwegian, Swedish, and Mandarin Chinese.

Regards,
Shodan
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Old 05-18-2012, 03:59 PM
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But we draw the line at snake-handling.
[insert your own dick joke here]
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Old 05-18-2012, 03:59 PM
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And here I was picturing you reading a Bible passage with an Elvis accent.
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Old 05-18-2012, 04:00 PM
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Yes, and if you read the Pentecost story in the Acts of the Apostles, glossolalia is exactly what did not happen. The Apostles began to speak in languages they did not know, and the people around them could understand them. They weren't speaking nonsense and claiming it was the language of the angels, they were speaking real languages without ever having to learn them.
Hey, waitaminnit . . .

Elendil's Heir is cheating!

God will get you for this . . .

Last edited by BrainGlutton; 05-18-2012 at 04:01 PM.
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Old 05-18-2012, 04:04 PM
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Quoth Flodnak:

Yes, and if you read the Pentecost story in the Acts of the Apostles, glossolalia is exactly what did not happen. The Apostles began to speak in languages they did not know, and the people around them could understand them. They weren't speaking nonsense and claiming it was the language of the angels, they were speaking real languages without ever having to learn them.
It goes further than that, even. People with different languages were all hearing the same speech, each in their own language. Which is of course impossible absent a miracle, but I'd say that the OP's church's approach of speaking in a large number of languages consecutively is probably about as close an approximation as you can get non-miraculously.
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Old 05-18-2012, 04:25 PM
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And here I was picturing you reading a Bible passage with an Elvis accent.
Thankyouverymuch, sayeth the Lord.


Jesus has left the building.
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Old 05-18-2012, 04:45 PM
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If I could talk about reading a different Scripture, I once read, in church, the second chapter of Luke. And it was in the King James Version.

On my deathbed I'm going to regret that, when I finished reading I used the standard phrase "Here ends the lesson". I resisted the temptation to look out at the congregation and say "And that's what Christmas is all about, Charlie Brown"

Last edited by Baker; 05-18-2012 at 04:45 PM. Reason: corrected spelling
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Old 05-18-2012, 08:02 PM
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It goes further than that, even. People with different languages were all hearing the same speech, each in their own language. Which is of course impossible absent a miracle . . .
Jesus made 5,000 loaves and 5,000 babelfishes.
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Old 05-18-2012, 08:03 PM
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If I could talk about reading a different Scripture, I once read, in church, the second chapter of Luke. And it was in the King James Version.

On my deathbed I'm going to regret that, when I finished reading I used the standard phrase "Here ends the lesson". I resisted the temptation to look out at the congregation and say "And that's what Christmas is all about, Charlie Brown"
To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women -- that is the true meanng of Christmas!
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Old 05-18-2012, 10:22 PM
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While when Episcopalians speak in tongues they ask for tea in Received Pronunciation.
How do they do it at the Holy Ghost Big Bang Theory Pentecostal Fire and Brimstone Mission Temple Fireworks Stand?
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Old 05-19-2012, 09:51 PM
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How do they do it at the Holy Ghost Big Bang Theory Pentecostal Fire and Brimstone Mission Temple Fireworks Stand?
I know you're joking, but I'll answer seriously.

Pentecostals believe in both glossalia AND the unlearned language thing. They are "different gifts." The theology is not based on the event in Acts 2, but other scriptures about speaking in tongues that speak of people not understanding or the language of angels. Or even "groans that words cannot express."

I grew up in it. My dad was said to once speak legitimate Spanish. Call it legitimate, random, or someone hearing what they wanted to hear (like in backmasking)--I really don't know, I wasn't there. And there's no recording or transcript as they hadn't thought of doing that yet.
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Old 05-19-2012, 09:54 PM
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Unrelated to previous post: Is anyone playing PEter who speaks up over everyone? (I was always taught in Greek)
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Old 05-19-2012, 10:00 PM
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Unrelated to previous post: Is anyone playing PEter who speaks up over everyone? (I was always taught in Greek)
No, that's not how we do it. But there's no reason it couldn't be done that way.
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Old 05-26-2012, 04:37 PM
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So is everyone ready for tomorrow? I got my passage transcribed into Roman script, the better to be able to read quickly.

Not doing the usual Acts passage this year. It's John 7:37-39.
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Old 05-26-2012, 05:01 PM
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But the different words meaning Peter are not the words meaning stone in each language, and there are many languages (English among them) where the name derives from the name in another language and not from the word meaning stone; in the different versions of the Bible I'm familiar with, Peter is only called Stone in the story about where he got his nick.
Huh? Isn't "Peter" from the same root as "petrified", meaning "turned to stone"? Or does the word "petrified" derive from the name "Peter"?
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Old 05-26-2012, 05:07 PM
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Huh? Isn't "Peter" from the same root as "petrified", meaning "turned to stone"? Or does the word "petrified" derive from the name "Peter"?
The former. Anyway, if Jesus gave Simon a nickname, it would have been the Aramaic work for "rock." Jesus probably knew neither Latin nor Greek, and would have had no reason to use either among his friends/disciples. And the original Gospels would have used the Greek word. But the Western world (that is, Italy and points north and west of it) would have learned these stories from the Vulgate, that is, St. Jerome's translation of the Bible from Greek into Latin.

Last edited by BrainGlutton; 05-26-2012 at 05:12 PM.
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Old 05-26-2012, 05:48 PM
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The former. Anyway, if Jesus gave Simon a nickname, it would have been the Aramaic work for "rock." Jesus probably knew neither Latin nor Greek, and would have had no reason to use either among his friends/disciples. And the original Gospels would have used the Greek word. But the Western world (that is, Italy and points north and west of it) would have learned these stories from the Vulgate, that is, St. Jerome's translation of the Bible from Greek into Latin.
In general, I agree with you and nava, I think, and I'm certainly more given to the historical-critical approach than the devotional approach. I'm not certain whom I'm disagreeing with and whom I'm agreeing with when I state that the reference to "Peter" as "stone" in the Gospels is partly a result of translation, but I think that we're given to exaggerate the difference because "Peter" and "stone" in English, while in other languages, with more of a history steeped in Christianity than English, "Peter" and "stone" are more closely linked.
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