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  #351  
Old 03-28-2020, 02:23 PM
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I didn't miss that part at all. A bunch of people driving around in cars, deliberately acting like a parade, will accumulate spectators; i.e., crowds. If they didn't, why bother? To organize the event, the cars may gather in a parking lot. Will all windows be rolled up? No one will open a window to ask for instructions? No one is in each car but the driver? No one will ever get out? All participants are protected by an impenetrable bubble?

And what kind of message does this pseudo-parade convey? That's it all right to leave home for a public purpose? Here's how to willingly evade the stay-at-home mandate? This isn't for a necessary purpose like getting food or medicine, but just a frivolous show. Frivolous shows right now are stupid, just stupid.
  #352  
Old 03-28-2020, 02:33 PM
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  #353  
Old 03-28-2020, 03:21 PM
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... This isn't for a necessary purpose like getting food or medicine, but just a frivolous show. Frivolous shows right now are stupid, just stupid.
Raising morale in a time of crisis is never stupid. The methods chosen may be but if one has to string together a bunch of if, and then if, and then ifs to get there, it is not a stupid method.
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  #354  
Old 03-28-2020, 04:23 PM
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There was a news story Wednesday evening about teachers on the other side of town forming up a parade and driving through their district's neighborhood waving and with signs of encouragement on their autos. Thursday afternoon we had the same thing happen in our neighborhood. Don't know if they copied the previous day's story or it just took them longer to pull the trigger but either way I hope it becomes a weekly happening.
Some of the elementary teachers in my district did the same thing last week! But since then our county has been put under a stay-at-home order, and our district administrators have told us specifically not to do any more car parades.
  #355  
Old 03-28-2020, 04:29 PM
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Some of the elementary teachers in my district did the same thing last week! But since then our county has been put under a stay-at-home order, and our district administrators have told us specifically not to do any more car parades.
Glad to see wiser heads prevailed.
  #356  
Old 03-28-2020, 04:35 PM
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I didn't miss that part at all. A bunch of people driving around in cars, deliberately acting like a parade, will accumulate spectators; i.e., crowds. If they didn't, why bother? To organize the event, the cars may gather in a parking lot. Will all windows be rolled up? No one will open a window to ask for instructions? No one is in each car but the driver? No one will ever get out? All participants are protected by an impenetrable bubble?

And what kind of message does this pseudo-parade convey? That's it all right to leave home for a public purpose? Here's how to willingly evade the stay-at-home mandate? This isn't for a necessary purpose like getting food or medicine, but just a frivolous show. Frivolous shows right now are stupid, just stupid.
A car parade dove by my home yesterday. It was cheerful. There were multiple people in most cars, but I assume they were family groups. (It was mostly kids.) Yes, they looked out the windows, but the cars drove about 10-15 feet apart from each other (plus the length of each car), so it probably wasn't very dangerous. I stood on the doorstep, a good 30 feet from them, and waved.

The only part that seemed ill-advised was that families from the cross-street gathered near the road, and each family group was barely 6 feet from each other family group. So I hope they are right about that 6 foot distance thing.
  #357  
Old 03-28-2020, 04:37 PM
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I didn't miss that part at all. A bunch of people driving around in cars, deliberately acting like a parade, will accumulate spectators; i.e., crowds. If they didn't, why bother? To organize the event, the cars may gather in a parking lot. Will all windows be rolled up? No one will open a window to ask for instructions? No one is in each car but the driver? No one will ever get out? All participants are protected by an impenetrable bubble?

And what kind of message does this pseudo-parade convey? That's it all right to leave home for a public purpose? Here's how to willingly evade the stay-at-home mandate? This isn't for a necessary purpose like getting food or medicine, but just a frivolous show. Frivolous shows right now are stupid, just stupid.
As for your first paragraph, I... have a thing called a cell phone with which I can communicate with people in a different car, and which I have even used before the pandemic to communicate with several different cars where we were all trying to stay together. No, no one need ever get out.

Your second paragraph has a point, though, although I agree with PoppaSan that raising morale is a sometimes-necessary purpose. I was imagining this was like 5 cars all going through one neighborhood, which would also have the advantage that people could just go on their own front steps to watch, but I am doubtless underestimating the human capacity for attempting to congregate. So I also see why one can argue that it's not a good idea, though I would say that the reasons why are a little less simple than "just stupid."

One of the families I know has a medically-fragile child who just celebrated a birthday, and one of our friends organized something a little like this -- where people drove by this family's house with signs in their car windows declaring "Happy birthday!" It wasn't a parade (since it was just organized for people to do this on a particular hour on the birthday, with no other organization) and no one got out. Should we do this for everyone's birthday? Probably not. But it was VERY appreciated by that family, which had been under a lot of stress even before all this happened.
  #358  
Old 03-28-2020, 04:41 PM
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Okay, I just heard a large chorus of "happy birthday" from my back yard neighbor's house. It didn't sound like they were using phones, and it sounded like more people than live there. And we have a lot of cases in town -- at least 14 have been tested positive, we presumably have a lot more that weren't tested.

  #359  
Old 03-28-2020, 04:58 PM
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I would like to call your attention to a short public comment made by Sister Bay and Door County (Wisconsin)'s Chairman, David Lienau, during a meeting last Tuesday, March 24. He wanted to point out how dangerous actions can be even though the intentions were honorable and seemingly, innocuous.
  #360  
Old 03-28-2020, 05:24 PM
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Some of the elementary teachers in my district did the same thing last week! But since then our county has been put under a stay-at-home order, and our district administrators have told us specifically not to do any more car parades.
How stupid! Let teachers safely bring some joy to their students.

I bet this principals first job in education was being middle school hall monitor.
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Old 03-28-2020, 05:27 PM
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When the weather cleared people were out playing tennis and pickleball but guess what? The worry warts and troublemakers had to call the cops tattle telling on them that they were violating the orders of our dear leaders.

And like that - bang, we are in North Korea.
  #362  
Old 03-28-2020, 05:29 PM
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As a postal employee I got a letter stating that when I get pulled over by police and they demand "PAPERS" I can show them I am an essential employee and allowed to go to work.

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Old 03-28-2020, 05:47 PM
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How stupid! Let teachers safely bring some joy to their students.

I bet this principals first job in education was being middle school hall monitor.
For the record, I agree with the stay-at-home orders and our administrators' directions against the car parades.

If you think it's okay to go mingle with other people in the park right now, you're part of the problem.
  #364  
Old 03-28-2020, 06:03 PM
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And like that - bang, we are in North Korea.
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  #365  
Old 03-28-2020, 06:51 PM
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The whole situation hit home with my mom today; I agreed to accompany her to the grocery store for some fresh items, and when we got there the line to get in was stretched around the building (with appropriate social distancing). Seeing this really shook her up; I had to repeatedly assure her that yes, it's sad that she might not be able to get her absolute favorite foods for a while, but we have more than enough stuff at home. (No, we didn't stand in line; it was already in the low 80s at that point, and the pollen is awful.)
  #366  
Old 03-29-2020, 11:21 AM
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I didn't miss that part at all. A bunch of people driving around in cars, deliberately acting like a parade, will accumulate spectators; i.e., crowds. If they didn't, why bother? To organize the event, the cars may gather in a parking lot. Will all windows be rolled up? No one will open a window to ask for instructions? No one is in each car but the driver? No one will ever get out? All participants are protected by an impenetrable bubble?

And what kind of message does this pseudo-parade convey? That's it all right to leave home for a public purpose? Here's how to willingly evade the stay-at-home mandate? This isn't for a necessary purpose like getting food or medicine, but just a frivolous show. Frivolous shows right now are stupid, just stupid.
Well, like puzzlegal's experience, we didn't get surging crowds on the sidewalks coughing on each other. By the forth or fifth car passing we had a couple families out in their own front yards, with their kids, waving back, then everyone went back inside.
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Glad to see wiser heads prevailed.
You just keep doing you, Musicat. It's not like Walking Dead out there where if you go outside you get et.
  #367  
Old 03-29-2020, 11:43 AM
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My stepmother is in the ICU on a ventilator with a positive COVID-19 test. My 79-year-old asthmatic father is quarantined. Luckily so far he is asymptomatic.

I gave notice at my job in mid-February to finally get some time off to recover from the concussion I had last September. I was still feeling dizzy by afternoon, and my short-term memory and multitasking ability are still shot to hell. Plus all the concussion recovery advice is "avoid screen time and mental exertion!" Considering that my job consisted of constant use of 2 monitors and a stack of papers, involving the need to cross-reference highly technical and detail-oriented material at high speed with no margin for error, that was...problematic. Even after 7 months, I still needed to crawl into bed while Tom Scud made dinner, then I would eat and crash out again by 8:30 pm. I hadn't been at that job long enough to be eligible for FMLA and decided that my health was more important - I hadn't quit a job without another job lined up since I was 16 and being illegally scheduled for 4 - 11 shifts on weeknights at Baskin-Robbins.

I wasn't terribly worried about being able to get another job when I was ready - I'd had recruiters contacting me regularly. Now its looking like I might be unemployed somewhat longer that expected - I don't know that employment-based immigration paralegals are going to be in high demand in the coming months. Especially ones who want to work from home because they are asthmatic.

Ah well, at least Tom Scud is employed and working from home, and we have savings. We'll be OK for a while.
  #368  
Old 03-29-2020, 11:50 AM
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You just keep doing you, Musicat. It's not like Walking Dead out there where if you go outside you get et.
Let's see how we both feel a few weeks or months from now. Right now, it could go either way.
  #369  
Old 03-29-2020, 12:40 PM
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My stepmother is in the ICU on a ventilator with a positive COVID-19 test. My 79-year-old asthmatic father is quarantined. Luckily so far he is asymptomatic.
....
Damn. So sorry to hear this.
  #370  
Old 03-29-2020, 01:44 PM
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Damn. So sorry to hear this.
Thanks. On the bright side, Dad's email from this morning says she has improved slightly, they have dialed back the pressure on the ventilator, and she no longer has a fever, so she may actually pull through.
  #371  
Old 03-29-2020, 05:01 PM
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I posted my story in an earlier thread.

Nine days ago a relative(in his late 20s) stopped by to see me(mid-40s obese with diabetes) and my mother(mid-40s with diabetes). Two days later he wasn't feeling well this morning so he went to an urgent care clinic. They told him to wait in his vehicle and someone would come out to talk to him. The person who came out told him his symptoms were consistent with corona but they didn't have enough testing kits to test him. So he went home.

Another relative who works in healthcare told me they are lot more cases than the number reported to the state because they are only testing those who extremely sick or in a high risk category.

Five days later my relative said he felt fine now and doesn't think he had actually had COVID.(He still had never actually got tested.)

On the sixth day both me and mom had bouts of diarrhea over the past 24 hours. There have been reports of CoVID-infected people starting with gastrointestinal issues before developing respiratory symptoms. We both have had bouts of diarrhea in the past from other issues so I am not sure it's related.

It's day nine now. Both me and my mom have headaches off and on but it might just be from the stress. We don't have a fever. I have had a runny nose but I not sure that's related either. No coughs or shortness of breath yet. Frankly I never been more scared in my life for either me or my mom.

The anxiety of not knowing whether my relative, me and mother have COVID is overbearing. I have anxiety issues to begin with so I am in heightened state all the time. I have lost ten pounds from the stress because I haven't felt like eating. I have anti-anxiety medication but it is sedating. And I don't want to take anything sedating on the chance I start developing respiratory symptoms. (I don't want it to impair my breathing.)
  #372  
Old 03-29-2020, 06:29 PM
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...

The anxiety of not knowing whether my relative, me and mother have COVID is overbearing. I have anxiety issues to begin with so I am in heightened state all the time. I have lost ten pounds from the stress because I haven't felt like eating. I have anti-anxiety medication but it is sedating. And I don't want to take anything sedating on the chance I start developing respiratory symptoms. (I don't want it to impair my breathing.)
The chart at the beginning of this article may (or may not) help you sort out your symptoms. The uncertainty is maddening, for sure.
  #373  
Old 03-30-2020, 02:56 AM
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The first person I knew personally died last Friday. He was an interpreter in the Spanish Booth, working for the EU in Brussels. May he rest in peace. I am told it was a lonesome death, hardly anyone knew he was sick (privacy wrongly applied) and we are all dumbstruck.
The EU has now started cancelling all contracts for free lancers on a rolling basis with two months notice. That respects the letter of our institutional agreement but goes flat out against the spirit. From June on many colleagues will lose all income. The free lancers who do not work for institutions but only for the private market have already lost all income as all meetings, conferences, etc. have been cancelled. Different countries will grant diferent levels of financial support. My wife and me are fortunate in this respect and will not need support from the governement for a very long time but I see and hear friends and colleagues in dire need who are very afraid. It's harrowing.
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  #374  
Old 03-31-2020, 09:32 AM
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I just got a call from my mother’s nursing home. She’s sick. She has a fever and pneumonia and is on supplemental oxygen. The are treating her now but if she doesn’t improve they will transfer her to comfort care.

If this happens we will be allowed in to see her.

I asked the doctor if they thought it was COVID and they didn’t know, but they said no staff has been sick.

Oh course, my head is spinning. I’ve been nervous about this because I was in New York City from March 1- March 5. I spent a lot of time in the nursing home in the week after I returned - then they closed the place to visitors.

Then I got sick with what appeared to be a cold, yet seemed oddly different. But I never had a fever. But I was really paranoid about it. Now I am even more paranoid than ever.

And worried for mom. Yet I’m accepting that this might be it for her. She’s 92 and very debilitated. She’s had a DNR order for two years now. She has late stage Parkinson’s and can’t even adjust herself in bed anymore. She has very in the way of little quality of life.

Damn, I just really want to be there right now.

ETA: my nephews wife is having their first child on Thursday. My moms first great grandchild. It’s starting to look like that might be one of those “circle of life” days.

Last edited by Ann Hedonia; 03-31-2020 at 09:35 AM.
  #375  
Old 03-31-2020, 10:22 AM
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Oh, Ann Hedonia, I'm so sorry. Damn. So worrisome. Too many momentous Life things crammed into a tiny space of time. How to absorb it all...? Do keep us posted. {{{Hugs}}}
  #376  
Old 03-31-2020, 11:05 AM
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I have always thought I was an exceptionally lucky man. Oddly, I have been lucky again with this horrible plague.


My last day at work was Monday. I was fired because I am now over sixty years old. So I came in, turned in my laptop & security badge. I waved goodbye to an empty cube farm. This has been my workplace for ten years and I have mostly loved it.


I have no way back to the US. I figured I would be trapped here for two or three months with no salary or health care. I was feeling pretty low.


Two hours later my boss's boss called. Because recruiting overseas has been shut down, they got me an exception to policy. I will be here for another year with a nice pay raise.


In a horrible world situation, with so much suffering, I once again lucked out.
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  #377  
Old 03-31-2020, 11:18 AM
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I'm quite lucky, other than taking a bath in my 401k and 457. I continue to draw a pension and work from home so no major changes for me. There's a chance that our clients will dry up but our clients are public agencies with dedicated funding so I don't see it happening. Even if it does, I'll have SS as a fallback second income. My wife is a delivery driver so she's still got work. No kids in the house and quiet work at home with the dog for company- life is good. Not that I lack empathy for those adversely impacted, I'm just grateful for my situation.
  #378  
Old 03-31-2020, 11:55 AM
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My cousin is a doctor. Heís working at one of the hard-hit hospitals in New York, I just found out. He has a wife and four kids. Iím pretty worried about him.
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  #379  
Old 03-31-2020, 02:47 PM
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I had a follow-up doctor's appointment today, and it got switched to Zoom. Worked really well. I could wait in the Zoom Waiting Room while reading the paper, good meeting, and I knew I wasn't going to get poked in odd places. No finding a parking spot there, no interrogation at the door. And way safer. Anyone else do this?
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Old 03-31-2020, 04:49 PM
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Only from the other side of it. I'll have some Zoom or gotomeeting appointments soon as a patient, which is fine for some things I need (like discussing which labs to get in the undetermined future) and doesn't work for others (like palpating for tumors, myofascial release, or a dental cleaning).
  #381  
Old 03-31-2020, 05:15 PM
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Just learned that, in Spain, my cousin and his whole family (wife and daughter) caught it. My cousin and his daughter are going to get out of it OK, but the wife right now is touch-and-go Cousin and wife are mid-40s, daughter is a teenager.
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  #382  
Old 03-31-2020, 05:43 PM
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The anxiety of not knowing whether my relative, me and mother have COVID is overbearing. I have anxiety issues to begin with so I am in heightened state all the time. I have lost ten pounds from the stress because I haven't felt like eating. I have anti-anxiety medication but it is sedating. And I don't want to take anything sedating on the chance I start developing respiratory symptoms. (I don't want it to impair my breathing.)
Unfortunately I respond to anxiety in exactly the opposite way. The enforced idleness has been having a bad effect on me. My fasting blood sugar hit 200 this morning. I am trying to get it under control, but it's hard when I can't get out and be active as easily.

I took my bike out on the bike trail this morning, it was a little disturbing how crowded it was for a Tuesday morning. The county sent out a reminder of the shelter in place order while I was out. I heard about 20 cell phones go off at once with the alert. So much for social distancing.
  #383  
Old 03-31-2020, 06:46 PM
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Update: Still barely affected except for lack of joyriding and sitdown meals. MrsRico doesn't want me shopping but our weekly market order pickups work. Apparently many in my rural redneck region are staying home - our county still has just ONE confirmed (and isolated) case from 11 days ago and that's all. Relatives in Arizona, Oregon, and Washington all seem okay so I'll try not to worry. Generally minimal impact here. Good; we need no excitement.
  #384  
Old 03-31-2020, 07:07 PM
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I had a follow-up doctor's appointment today, and it got switched to Zoom. Worked really well. I could wait in the Zoom Waiting Room while reading the paper, good meeting, and I knew I wasn't going to get poked in odd places. No finding a parking spot there, no interrogation at the door. And way safer. Anyone else do this?
I've got an appointment set up with my primary care doc for later this month, and it will be a televisit. I have mixed feelings about it - because yeah, there are some things they can't do remotely. For example I'll need routine bloodwork and I don't think jabbing my finger with a pin and smearing it on the laptop camera would quite do the job

On the other hand, if I were having a "routine" asthma flare, or just needed prescription refills, it would work fine.

Paul in Qatar: Yikes on the weird job situation. I assume your employer is not US-based; is "turn 60, get fired" a common thing in the middle east?
  #385  
Old 04-01-2020, 01:32 AM
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Paul in Qatar: Yikes on the weird job situation. I assume your employer is not US-based; is "turn 60, get fired" a common thing in the middle east?

I am afraid so.
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Old 04-01-2020, 02:37 AM
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On the very same day that I got a call from Uncle Sam that I was approved for the job of taking census I went to the website I was told to go to set up a fingerprint appointment...and saw a message that all fingerprinting appointments were delayed until April 1st. At midnight tonight I went to that website to get an early appointment, and this is what I saw:
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Based on continuing assessments, guidance from federal, state and local health authorities, the U.S. Census Bureau is suspending 2020 Census field operations until more updates are available. The Census Bureau is taking this step to help protect the health and safety of the American public, Census Bureau employees, and everyone who will go through the hiring process for temporary census taker positions.
.
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Old 04-01-2020, 07:48 AM
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The farm market near me got a shipment of eggs, but their supplier (Turner Dairy) is all out of egg cartons. Talk about awkward, buying eggs sans cartons.
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Old 04-02-2020, 11:09 AM
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Because of rules handed down by the Oregon Food Bank, instead of having customers come on down and shop off the shelves we have to pack each box ourselves and carry them up the stairs to vehicles lined up outside. Also, because of the "six feet of separation" thing we had to send half of our volunteers home because we didn't have a large enough space for them all. Twice as much work and half the volunteers.
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Old 04-02-2020, 02:05 PM
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My mother is doing better and -according to the nurse practitioner that’s been my contact- she had bacterial pneumonia, not viral. They didn’t do a COVID test but the bacterial culture was positive and - most importantly- she improved in response to the antibiotics.

I will always be a little skeptical since they didn’t do a COVID test ( what if the bacterial infection was secondary?) but she’s getting better and that’s what’s important to me.

Last edited by Ann Hedonia; 04-02-2020 at 02:06 PM.
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Old 04-02-2020, 02:23 PM
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Yay, Ann's mom!
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Old 04-02-2020, 02:32 PM
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Public schools in Texas are closed until at least May 4, and it's likely (in my district at least) we'll stay closed for the remainder of the semester. We are continuing with online learning, but our administrators have told us to keep it pretty simple and to basically accept ANY level of participation from our students as good enough to pass. Makes sense--we weren't really prepared for this and the students shouldn't be penalized for this crazy situation. We have a lot of low-income students and access to technology (devices, wifi, etc.) is limited for many of them. And some of them have bigger things to worry about, like working at the grocery store to help their laid-off parent pay the rent and other bills. So, my lesson planning and grading isn't really filling up all that much of my time.

Fortunately no one I know has become ill, but I fear things are just starting to 'heat up' here in Texas. My elderly parents live in a small town and they are mostly staying home, but I think they and others in their community are feeling a little too safe because they are not near a big city. I keep telling them it is spreading here--even in rural areas there are cases popping up and probably many more than we know about.
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Old 04-02-2020, 02:57 PM
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Yay, Ann's mom!
Seconded!
  #393  
Old 04-02-2020, 03:41 PM
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My university is on-line classes only, so I am working from home. The family shop made a marvelous profit last week selling out all our herbal scented hand sanitizer. We are hoping to get more in five days. Everyone that comes to the shop for spiritual advisement because they want psychic protection from Corona Virus is told they must perform purity rituals of frequent washing, avoiding physical contact, and isolation.
  #394  
Old 04-03-2020, 07:47 AM
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... most importantly- she improved in response to the antibiotics....but sheís getting better and thatís whatís important to me.
Yay!

I'm always a little surprised when people rejoice over a negative covid test. Covid is bad but it's not a death sentence. I recently recovered from a nasty chest cold, and I would be delighted to learn that it WAS covid (although it probably wasn't.)

What matters is what you said, "are they getting better?"
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Old 04-03-2020, 07:48 AM
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...The family shop made a marvelous profit last week selling out all our herbal scented hand sanitizer. We are hoping to get more in five days...
That's interesting. Is the national shortage of sanitizer and rubbing alcohol finally going to abate?
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Old 04-03-2020, 10:46 AM
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That's interesting. Is the national shortage of sanitizer and rubbing alcohol finally going to abate?
Who knows. Our supplier has promised a delivery on Monday, April 13 and since they they are a local smallish company that manufactures the sanitizer hopefully everything will go as planned.
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Old 04-03-2020, 11:07 AM
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I wonder if people are buying Everclear as hand sanitizer.
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Old 04-03-2020, 11:31 AM
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I wonder if people are buying Everclear as hand sanitizer.
I do not know if they are buying it to use as hand sanitizer, but many of the liquor stores around me (Texas) have been sold out of Everclear.
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Old 04-03-2020, 02:15 PM
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Either for homemade hand sanitizer, or somebody is making massive quantities of Purple Jesus.
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Old 04-03-2020, 06:47 PM
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I posted my story in an earlier thread.

Nine days ago a relative(in his late 20s) stopped by to see me(mid-40s obese with diabetes) and my mother(mid-40s with diabetes). Two days later he wasn't feeling well this morning so he went to an urgent care clinic. They told him to wait in his vehicle and someone would come out to talk to him. The person who came out told him his symptoms were consistent with corona but they didn't have enough testing kits to test him. So he went home.

Another relative who works in healthcare told me they are lot more cases than the number reported to the state because they are only testing those who extremely sick or in a high risk category.

Five days later my relative said he felt fine now and doesn't think he had actually had COVID.(He still had never actually got tested.)

On the sixth day both me and mom had bouts of diarrhea over the past 24 hours. There have been reports of CoVID-infected people starting with gastrointestinal issues before developing respiratory symptoms. We both have had bouts of diarrhea in the past from other issues so I am not sure it's related.

It's day nine now. Both me and my mom have headaches off and on but it might just be from the stress. We don't have a fever. I have had a runny nose but I not sure that's related either. No coughs or shortness of breath yet. Frankly I never been more scared in my life for either me or my mom.

The anxiety of not knowing whether my relative, me and mother have COVID is overbearing. I have anxiety issues to begin with so I am in heightened state all the time. I have lost ten pounds from the stress because I haven't felt like eating. I have anti-anxiety medication but it is sedating. And I don't want to take anything sedating on the chance I start developing respiratory symptoms. (I don't want it to impair my breathing.)
Well it's has been fourteen days for me and my mother and neither of us developed any severe symptoms so I don't know whether we were exposed to COVID or not. We had an assortment of mild symptoms that could have caused by it or it could have been something else. I am going to assume we were not and that we should still still take extreme precautions to avoid being potentially exposed.

My mother had nursing aides coming in six days a week to help her with but I decided to stop having them come because it would just be a vector for us to get ill. It will be a bigger burden on me to help her but the costs outweigh the risks of us getting sick. Her visiting RN will still come once a week to check her and replace her catheter. (If she didn't have the catheter I would probably not have the nurse come either.)
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