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Old 05-18-2019, 04:06 AM
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WWJD Re: Gay People.


I actually have been hearing quite a bit about this subject, what Jesus would do concerning gays, if he were around today. It is hard to provide cites (much of it is on TV--like Real Time with Bill Maher just tonight). But I just tell you straightforward what I have heard.

Jesus never mentioned homosexuality. Actually, the strange divisions we now have in sexuality is rather a new thing (I heard on the History Channel, a while ago). But he never mentioned what we would call gay sex acts, in any event.

Also, Jesus was very non-conventional. He said things no one ever said before (like love those who hurt you, instead of 'an eye for an eye' like people thought at the time). If he were around today, he might even endorse gay marriage. Why not?

Also I got this study guide for ethics a while ago (so sorry, no cite), that said many of the old moral rules we follow today, may in fact be anachronisms. In other words, they were established for concepts and beliefs we no longer have today or that no longer apply. People, for example, used to believe a little baby was to be found in a man's 'seed'. So things like coitus interruptus and even masturbation could be tantamount to murder. We now realize a man's semen does not contain a little baby. Also (in RC HS like the previous), they taught us that adultery was really a property crime. Men were never punished for it. It was always the woman who was. And it also was a paternity issue too, that modern technology has also made obsolete.

Finally, I am a bit agnostic myself. But I guess the premise is that Jesus was really the Son of God. Or at least he was divine-sent, in one way or another (use your imagination).

So what do you all think? What would Jesus do regarding gays, if he was around today?

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Old 05-18-2019, 04:10 AM
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EDIT: BTW, this discussion is open to agnostics and atheists too. Bill Maher is reportedly an atheist or agnostic. And as I said, I got some of my material for this from him too.
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Old 05-18-2019, 04:21 AM
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Upon seeing that a guy was about to hurl a rock at a gay person’s head, Jesus would presumably tell said guy not to hurl said rock; I could elaborate. If a question then comes up about whether one should forgive any trespasses by a gay person, Jesus would presumably reply in the affirmative — helpfully adding that, if a gay person smacks you upside the head, you should let him do that again. And so on.
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Old 05-18-2019, 05:04 AM
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What do you mean, what would he do? Do you mean what would he say on Twitter?
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Old 05-18-2019, 06:15 AM
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I think it wouldn’t matter what Jesus, or any other religious figure, would say if they were around today. People believe the way they do and then project that onto the Bible, Koran, Torah, etc. Nancy Pelosi and Clarence Thomas both read the same Bible. Ilhan Omar and the clerics of Saudi Arabia read the same Koran. Bernie Sanders and Benjamin Netanyahu are both Jewish. People believe what they want to and then see that in their religious texts. It wouldn’t matter what Jesus, Mohamed, Moses, or any other historical religious figure said if they were around today.
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Old 05-18-2019, 08:46 AM
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I think it wouldn’t matter what Jesus, or any other religious figure, would say if they were around today. People believe the way they do and then project that onto the Bible, Koran, Torah, etc. Nancy Pelosi and Clarence Thomas both read the same Bible. Ilhan Omar and the clerics of Saudi Arabia read the same Koran. Bernie Sanders and Benjamin Netanyahu are both Jewish. People believe what they want to and then see that in their religious texts. It wouldn’t matter what Jesus, Mohamed, Moses, or any other historical religious figure said if they were around today.
Jesus is supposed to return one day. I wonder if all Christians would even recognize him.

"That long-haired commie pinko coastal elite has got some nerve, calling himself 'Jesus'. Where's his semi-automatic rifle? Where's his MAGA hat? Where's his 'fuck your feelings' t-shirt? That guy ain't the Jesus I know! He's probably an illegal alien! LOCK HIM UP!"
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Old 05-18-2019, 09:16 AM
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Jesus is supposed to return one day. I wonder if all Christians would even recognize him.

"That guy ain't the Jesus I know! He's probably an illegal alien! LOCK HIM UP!"
You're thinking of Jesús!
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Old 05-18-2019, 09:24 AM
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Jesus is supposed to return one day. I wonder if all Christians would even recognize him.

"That long-haired commie pinko coastal elite has got some nerve, calling himself 'Jesus'. Where's his semi-automatic rifle? Where's his MAGA hat? Where's his 'fuck your feelings' t-shirt? That guy ain't the Jesus I know! He's probably an illegal alien! LOCK HIM UP!"
Better yet: "That long-haired commie pinko coastal elite black bitch has got some nerve, calling herself 'Jesus'. Where's her semi-automatic rifle? Where's her MAGA hat? Where's her 'fuck your feelings' t-shirt? That N****r cunt ain't the Jesus I know! She's probably an illegal alien! LOCK HER UP!"[/QUOTE]
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Old 06-12-2019, 05:39 PM
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Better yet: "That long-haired commie pinko coastal elite black bitch has got some nerve, calling herself 'Jesus'. Where's her semi-automatic rifle? Where's her MAGA hat? Where's her 'fuck your feelings' t-shirt? That N****r cunt ain't the Jesus I know! She's probably an illegal alien! LOCK HER UP!"
You really like saying the "N word", don't you?

https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...d.php?t=830768

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Old 05-18-2019, 09:25 AM
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So what do you all think? What would Jesus do regarding gays, if he was around today?
He would love them.

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Jesus never mentioned homosexuality. Actually, the strange divisions we now have in sexuality is rather a new thing (I heard on the History Channel, a while ago). But he never mentioned what we would call gay sex acts, in any event.
Yeah, my understanding is that homosexuality as an orientation, a matter of identity apart from behavior, "wasn't a thing" back then in the old days. It wasn't how people thought. One might even be able to argue that the Bible says nothing at all, anywhere, about homosexuality as we understand it today. But in any case, you're right: Jesus never mentioned it.
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Old 06-07-2019, 09:07 AM
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He would love them.

Yeah, my understanding is that homosexuality as an orientation, a matter of identity apart from behavior, "wasn't a thing" back then in the old days. It wasn't how people thought. One might even be able to argue that the Bible says nothing at all, anywhere, about homosexuality as we understand it today. But in any case, you're right: Jesus never mentioned it.
have you forgotten Sodom and gomorro? or Jesus saying "man should leave parents and cling unto his wife"?
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Old 06-07-2019, 10:19 AM
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have you forgotten Sodom and gomorro?


https://medium.com/@adamnicholasphil...t-13ae949d6619

This was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. They were haughty, and did abominable things before me; therefore I removed them when I saw it. — Ezekiel 16:49,50
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Old 06-10-2019, 07:28 PM
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https://medium.com/@adamnicholasphil...t-13ae949d6619

This was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. They were haughty, and did abominable things before me; therefore I removed them when I saw it. — Ezekiel 16:49,50
aren't you ignoring Genesis 19:5?
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Old 06-11-2019, 09:08 AM
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aren't you ignoring Genesis 19:5?
That's about rape and about betrayal of guests. Doesn't say a thing about consensual homosexual behavior.
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Old 06-10-2019, 07:23 PM
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He would love them.

Yeah, my understanding is that homosexuality as an orientation, a matter of identity apart from behavior, "wasn't a thing" back then in the old days. It wasn't how people thought. One might even be able to argue that the Bible says nothing at all, anywhere, about homosexuality as we understand it today. But in any case, you're right: Jesus never mentioned it.
see genesis 19:5, also Luke 10:12
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Old 05-18-2019, 09:55 AM
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Yes he would love them. Jesus reached out to and embraced the social outcasts of his day — women, tax collectors, prostitutes, and others. He would do that today. And he wouldn’t tweet about it, his followers would want to but he’d tell them to wait and not tweet until his time had come. After he’d be crucified (or today, what? death by injection? electric chair?), his followers would be afraid and would not be tweeting, not until he rose from the dead, came back alive, ate wth them, and hung out with them. That’s when they’d tweet about him.
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Old 05-18-2019, 10:43 AM
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Yes he would love them. Jesus reached out to and embraced the social outcasts of his day — women, tax collectors, prostitutes, and others. He would do that today. And he wouldn’t tweet about it, his followers would want to but he’d tell them to wait and not tweet until his time had come. After he’d be crucified (or today, what? death by injection? electric chair?), his followers would be afraid and would not be tweeting, not until he rose from the dead, came back alive, ate wth them, and hung out with them. That’s when they’d tweet about him.
What would he be crucified for today? Seems to me, his ideas in today's world would be quite welcome and very non-controversial. Even if he leveled criticism at the Church - who hasn't at this point?
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Old 05-18-2019, 10:55 AM
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[ . . .] Seems to me, his ideas in today's world would be quite welcome and very non-controversial. [ . . .]
Give away all your possessions to the poor ?

Desert your family?
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Old 05-18-2019, 10:59 AM
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Yes, yes... take no thought of the morrow....

Fine, crazy. But hardly crucifiable.
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Old 05-18-2019, 11:05 AM
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Yes, yes... take no thought of the morrow....

Fine, crazy. But hardly crucifiable.
Hardly crucifiable (nothing's crucifiable); but also not at all likely to be either non-controversial or quite welcome.
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Old 05-18-2019, 12:46 PM
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What would he be crucified for today? Seems to me, his ideas in today's world would be quite welcome and very non-controversial. Even if he leveled criticism at the Church - who hasn't at this point?
If he set foot in certain areas of the country he would certainly be killed by Evangelicals/Fundamentalists upset about what he had to say on a variety of topics. Whether it would be done by the State is arguable but the way we are headed it isn't hard to imagine. It wouldn't take much for legislatures in certain states to enact laws making it a capital offense to protect certain groups like gay people. Or women who have had abortions. Or Muslims and other non-Christians.
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Old 05-18-2019, 08:16 PM
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It wouldn't take much for legislatures in certain states to enact laws making it a capital offense to protect certain groups like gay people. Or women who have had abortions. Or Muslims and other non-Christians.
Ridiculous. Any such laws would get a permanent injunction before they could be implemented.
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Old 05-19-2019, 12:42 PM
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Ridiculous. Any such laws would get a permanent injunction before they could be implemented.
Maybe. But where is the injunction stopping Alabama from locking up doctors who perform abortions for up to 99 years?

With several other states moving to implement laws that are equally as restrictive on abortion I don't find it much of a stretch to see these "Christians" emboldened to pass other laws we would have once found ridiculous.
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Old 05-18-2019, 03:31 PM
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What would he be crucified for today? Seems to me, his ideas in today's world would be quite welcome and very non-controversial. Even if he leveled criticism at the Church - who hasn't at this point?
If he started another riot at a bank, I think that would do it.
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Old 05-18-2019, 07:46 PM
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If he started another riot at a bank, I think that would do it.
"Time to lose my shit, flip some tables and drive everybody outta the building with a bullwhip!"
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Old 05-18-2019, 07:40 PM
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What would he be crucified for today? Seems to me, his ideas in today's world would be quite welcome and very non-controversial. Even if he leveled criticism at the Church - who hasn't at this point?
The idealized Jesus portrayed in the Bible would today be regarded, at best, as an unpatriotic socialist hippie bum. But the real (historical) Jesus also included the element of being a revolutionary fighting against the dominant state power. Put all of that together, and Jesus today would be on the FBI watchlist in a heartbeat, probably jailed for treason within months, and subjected to the modern-day version of crucifixion, possibly by being sent to Guantanamo Bay.
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Old 06-12-2019, 03:53 AM
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After he’d be crucified (or today, what? death by injection? electric chair?)
A bullet from the back of a bush took Medgar Evers' blood.
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Old 06-12-2019, 08:40 AM
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A bullet from the back of a bush took Medgar Evers' blood.
JC was crucified which, then, was the most public, humiliating, and torturous way to be killed.
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Old 06-12-2019, 08:43 AM
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JC was crucified which, then, was the most public, humiliating, and torturous way to be killed.
If the man was a *god*, he could take away the pain and all the negativity of the experience, AND he knew he'd be okay in three days.
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Old 06-12-2019, 08:56 AM
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If the man was a *god*, he could take away the pain and all the negativity of the experience, AND he knew he'd be okay in three days.
He chose not to do that. He knew what was coming. His ‘Gethsemane Moment’, if you will, was agonizing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agony_in_the_Garden
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Old 05-18-2019, 11:03 AM
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Perhaps the state wouldn't execute him, but there are plenty of wackos with guns to do that kind of dirty work. I'm not a Christian (or religious at all), but I've often thought of MLK's fate as a pretty good indicator of how we'd respond if Jesus came back in modern times.
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Old 05-18-2019, 08:30 PM
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Jesus is supposed to return one day. I wonder if all Christians would even recognize him.



"That long-haired commie pinko coastal elite has got some nerve, calling himself 'Jesus'. Where's his semi-automatic rifle? Where's his MAGA hat? Where's his 'fuck your feelings' t-shirt? That guy ain't the Jesus I know! He's probably an illegal alien! LOCK HIM UP!"
The better question is whether He would recognize modern-day Christians.
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Old 05-18-2019, 08:50 PM
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The better question is whether He would recognize modern-day Christians.
Brings to mind the cleansing of the temple.

Evangelicals better pray Jesus never returns because if he does they are seriously fucked.
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Old 05-21-2019, 06:38 PM
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We could look at what Jesus actually did. See Matthew 8:5-13, or the similar section in Luke. The story of Jesus and the Roman Centurion. (The only miricle mentioned in the 'Q' source, and appearing in 2 (maybe 3) of the 4 gospels.
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Old 05-21-2019, 07:07 PM
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Jesus was all about comforting the downtrodden. His entire ethos is that the oppressed are actually the most important people. The last shall be first, and all that. He was against legalism, and was really big on saying that "love your neighbor as yourself" was (along with loving God) the entire point of the law.

Homosexuality of today is not the pederasty of the past, nor is it some giant sex cult thing, worshiping a false god. I don't really see what he would find objectionable about it. He would just see an oppressed class of people who need comfort.

So, as a Christian, I see it as my responsibility to be like Christ in this respect. My fundamentalist brethren are into legalism, which Jesus abhorred.

Last edited by BigT; 05-21-2019 at 07:08 PM.
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Old 06-10-2019, 07:26 PM
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Jesus was all about comforting the downtrodden. His entire ethos is that the oppressed are actually the most important people. The last shall be first, and all that. He was against legalism, and was really big on saying that "love your neighbor as yourself" was (along with loving God) the entire point of the law.

Homosexuality of today is not the pederasty of the past, nor is it some giant sex cult thing, worshiping a false god. I don't really see what he would find objectionable about it. He would just see an oppressed class of people who need comfort.

So, as a Christian, I see it as my responsibility to be like Christ in this respect. My fundamentalist brethren are into legalism, which Jesus abhorred.
You do know he said to leave parents and cling unto your "wife', also Luke 10:12 about not becoming like Sodom
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Old 06-05-2019, 08:28 PM
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In today’s news, former LA Rams quarterback and USC Athletic Director Pat Haden is being investigated to see if he had any role in the college admissions cheating scandal. Haden released a statement through his son-in-law, Donnie Dixon Haden.

Son-in-law with the same last name? Had to be a gay relationship, right? I was a fan of Haden’s and the Rams back then (1970s). So I looked it up and sure enough, Haden’s son Ryan is gay. In my searches I found this article, Ryan Haden thanks his dad, USC AD Pat Haden, for loving him and his boyfriend.

Pretty cool, that.
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Old 06-05-2019, 11:24 PM
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Per the bible I guess the same thing he would do with everyone else who commits an abominable act- including, eating shellfish, talking to a woman on her period, wearing polycotton blends, eating ham, eating leftovers, burning incense, seeing a psychic, as you should know- Revelation: 21:27: Anyone who practices abomination will not enter Heaven. So hell for all of them courtesy of a loving god. But curious why you single out gays here any dont worry about all the others? Why no thread, WWJD do with BLT lovers? The bible doesnt differentiate among any of these.

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Old 06-06-2019, 05:01 AM
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From my interpretation of Jesus throughout the bible and the quran, It sounds like he's displayed radical dissidence. He went against the norms, going as far as to claim to be the son of god which only the king *should* be able to do. In fact I believe it was agustus(?) who was on their currency and it stated he was the son of god, so it was a direct jab at the people in power. So I'd imagine Jesus would side with the gays if not for any other reason than just to stab the status quo and societal norms.
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Old 06-07-2019, 04:01 PM
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Sodom and Gomorrah was many many years before Jesus. Old Testament history.

Jesus would love the gays, because he loved sinners and taxpayers and women -- the social outcasts of his day. And he came to save all.
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Old 06-07-2019, 04:05 PM
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Jesus would love the gays, because he loved sinners and taxpayers and women -- the social outcasts of his day. And he came to save all.
Pretty sure that's supposed to be "tax collectors," no?
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Old 06-07-2019, 05:21 PM
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Pretty sure that's supposed to be "tax collectors," no?
Yes! Thanks.
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Old 06-08-2019, 09:48 AM
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Whether deliberately or unwittingly, I do not know--but there is a tremendous amount of obscuring in this thread between the sin and the sinner. It is true that Jesus would love homosexuals. It is equally true that He would condemn their sin.

Many people in this thread don't seem to understand that Jesus was moralistic and legalistic. "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil" (Matt. 5:17). Many people today focus on God's love to the exclusion of His other attributes. But He is also just and holy; such a God cannot, by His very nature, cannot let sin go unpunished.

Far from showing the "love" that lets things slide without punishment, He tightened the standards of morality. "Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: but I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart" (Matt. 5:27, 28).

To the homosexuals who were ready to repent, and give up their wicked lifestyle, Jesus would say, "Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee" (John 5:14b).

To the "Christian" homosexuals who proudly proclaim and defend their sin, He would say, "Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?" (Matt. 23:33).
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Old 06-08-2019, 10:03 AM
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To the homosexuals who were ready to repent, and give up their wicked lifestyle, Jesus would say, "Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee" (John 5:14b).

To the "Christian" homosexuals who proudly proclaim and defend their sin, He would say, "Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?" (Matt. 23:33).
Straight Christians just declare themselves forgiven and then go back to sinning. Why is that option not available to gay Christians?
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Old 06-08-2019, 03:41 PM
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Straight Christians just declare themselves forgiven and then go back to sinning. Why is that option not available to gay Christians?
because the gay Christians aren't the hypocritical bigots that most fundamentalist Christians are. Though I think you were actually being facetious.

Additionally Jesus was against divorce but I know quite a few divorced Christians that rail against gays. See previous statement above.

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Old 06-08-2019, 10:44 AM
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Many people in this thread don't seem to understand that Jesus was moralistic and legalistic. "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil" (Matt. 5:17). Many people today focus on God's love to the exclusion of His other attributes. But He is also just and holy; such a God cannot, by His very nature, cannot let sin go unpunished.
Which is why Christians who are upset about homosexual behavior are equally upset about interplanting crops, failing to return property in the Jubilee year, and breaking the Sabbath, right?

Not to mention a whole lot of other things in the law and the prophets.
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Old 06-09-2019, 10:47 PM
FriarTed is offline
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Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post
Which is why Christians who are upset about homosexual behavior are equally upset about interplanting crops, failing to return property in the Jubilee year, and breaking the Sabbath, right?

Not to mention a whole lot of other things in the law and the prophets.
Ever hear of the Jerusalem Council of the Apostles?
The distinctions between the Ceremonial & the Moral Laws of Torah?
What applies strictly to the nation Israel & what applies universally to all humanity?

I do give you credit for going beyond the "what about eating pork & shellfish & wearing mixed fabrics, huh?" that I usually see in these discussions.

However, check out this elaborately produced & scholarly deep cartoon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4r2m_cffRjI&t
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  #48  
Old 06-10-2019, 01:30 AM
Chisquirrel is offline
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Originally Posted by FriarTed View Post
Ever hear of the Jerusalem Council of the Apostles?
The distinctions between the Ceremonial & the Moral Laws of Torah?
What applies strictly to the nation Israel & what applies universally to all humanity?

I do give you credit for going beyond the "what about eating pork & shellfish & wearing mixed fabrics, huh?" that I usually see in these discussions.

However, check out this elaborately produced & scholarly deep cartoon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4r2m_cffRjI&t
Sweet. Can you point to those Bible verses, or better yet, the actual word of God that states those things? I don't remember those parts of Leviticus or John.
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Old 06-10-2019, 06:03 AM
FriarTed is offline
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Originally Posted by Chisquirrel View Post
Sweet. Can you point to those Bible verses, or better yet, the actual word of God that states those things? I don't remember those parts of Leviticus or John.
OK, in Acts 10, Peter has a dream of God telling him to slaughter unclean animals & eat them, then awakens to get a request from a Roman centurion to come tell him & his loved ones about God/Jesus. He goes to share the Gospel with them, they believe & receive the Holy Spirit, which shows Peter that God is disrupting the old Jewish/Gentile barriers, so he goes ahead & baptizes them without putting any Judaic demands on them.

In Acts 15, the whole issue as to what God requires of Gentile believers, including circumscision, kosher diet, and other aspects of the law of Moses, finally forces the Apostles to consider the issue, with input of Peter regarding his dream & experience with the centurion's household, and from Paul regarding his ministry to the Gentiles. The final result, endorsed by James "the brother of the Lord", that Gentiles need not get clipped nor be bound to the Israel-specific laws of Moses, but they are forbidden from idolatry & eating things offered to idols, "blood" (either violence or eating blood), eating strangled (inhumanely slaughtered) animals, and sexual immorality.
Those things were forbidden in what the Rabbis considered the Noahic Law given to all humanity. That was what's often called the Jerusalem Council.

In Leviticus 18 & 20, the sexual taboos are listed: incest, adultery, male-male intercourse, bestiality, along with child-sacrifice, with the notation that it was for those practices that the pagan peoples are being displanted by Israel.

Leviticus 19:19 is the law against mixing plant seeds, interbreeding animals, & mixing fabrics (specifically wool & linen), as symbolic of Israel/Gentile distinction.

Paul in Romans 1:26-27 & I Corinthians 6:9-11 includes same-sex relations among forbidden practices to all people. Now, to Christians, Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles- Christ's Agent to bring us the Gospel & what He required of us, even as Peter & the rest were sent to Israel. Throughout his letters, he emphasizes the freedom of believers from kosher diet, circumscision, Sabbath & festival obligations. That does not free them from the moral obligations.

Now WWJD regarding gays? Same thing He did with everyone- show compassion on them where they were mistreated & weak, call them to repentance where they mistreated others or sinned against God's requirements, and hold them to account if they persisted in sin.

I see no reason to think He would bless (or does bless) same-sex marriage, or approve of same-sex relations- any more than He would approve of adultery, incest, or bestiality, nor would He consecrate sexually-active gays into ministry. He would not deny them food or shelter or work, nor would He condone anyone who does so. But neither would He endorse their sexual activity, nor would He require anyone to do so.

No, I do not equate gays with those who practice incest, who cheat on their spouses, or have sex with animals. I only say that those practices are similarly forbidden, not just in Torah, but since Christ's coming.
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Last edited by FriarTed; 06-10-2019 at 06:04 AM.
  #50  
Old 06-10-2019, 02:48 PM
thorny locust is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FriarTed View Post
Ever hear of the Jerusalem Council of the Apostles?
The distinctions between the Ceremonial & the Moral Laws of Torah?
What applies strictly to the nation Israel & what applies universally to all humanity?

I do give you credit for going beyond the "what about eating pork & shellfish & wearing mixed fabrics, huh?" that I usually see in these discussions.

However, check out this elaborately produced & scholarly deep cartoon.

[url]
When that rather silly lecture hit the point of claiming that the entire point of Judaism was to produce Jesus, I quit watching.

Before I got there, however, I noted that the producer of that particular video put all of the Ten Commandments into Moral Law. Keeping the Sabbath is in the Ten Commandments.

More broadly: yes, I am aware that at various points groups of people got together, declared themselves authorities, and decided which of the rules in the bible they thought ought to apply to themselves; not to mention which scriptures they thought belong in the bible in the first place; and that they came up with various justifications for these decisions. I just don't think that the fact that people a long time ago decided to pick and choose certain passages and certain entire books to ignore means that people now aren't doing the same thing.
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