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Old 08-04-2019, 10:37 AM
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I'm no racist but...


Ö well, actually. I think I am. Any time I hear about an instance of terrorism in the USA I instantly think, "Goddam white guy, I'll bet." And sure enough, even if the name sounds a little Spanish--totally a white dude with an axe to grind against people that don't look like him.

I'm not going to be shy about it: White people, esp white men as the white wimmins don't tend to do public violence, need to get their shit together and police their own before a government happens that might actually react to these shenanigans.
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Old 08-04-2019, 10:57 AM
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The white women could do their part and stop voting for Republicans. Far too many of them voted for a guy who bought a teen beauty pageant so that he could barge in their dressing room and boasted about getting away with being a sexual predator. If that doesn't stop them from voting for him, why should his encouragement of mass murder?
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Old 08-04-2019, 11:15 AM
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The white women could do their part and stop voting for Republicans. Far too many of them voted for a guy who bought a teen beauty pageant so that he could barge in their dressing room and boasted about getting away with being a sexual predator. If that doesn't stop them from voting for him, why should his encouragement of mass murder?
I mean obviously it's unlikely that The Audacity of Grope will ever barge into their dressing room, so why should they care about some slatterns ? Thinking as a Christian ?

Last edited by Kobal2; 08-04-2019 at 11:15 AM.
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Old 08-04-2019, 11:46 AM
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I feel old, I remember when they wouldn't call it terrorism if a white guy did it. I mean, you'd have to actually blow up a building, like McVeigh. If a white guy killed innocent people AND had the nerve to damage a building in the process, that was terrorism. We've come a long way as a society, huh?

Last edited by bobot; 08-04-2019 at 11:48 AM. Reason: "Audacity" used in the post before mine. Rephrased to not be a bogart.
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Old 08-04-2019, 11:55 AM
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Trump gave a "God Bless" to each city. Problem solved.
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Old 08-04-2019, 12:29 PM
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Trump gave a "God Bless" to each city. Problem solved.
Did he give "Thoughts" to one and "Prayers" to another? He's a busy man- there is golf to be played this weekend.
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Old 08-04-2019, 12:43 PM
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Don't worry, he'll shoot a hole-in-one in memory of each victim. All in a single round of 18 holes. Impossible!, you say. Well then, you don't know DJT. I'm sure he'll be only too happy to disclose his taxes score card. Which he personally logged in his own hand.
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Old 08-04-2019, 12:50 PM
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I wouldn't actually assume that someone who pictures a white guy when hearing about a mass shooter is racist. It isn't the same as assuming a criminal is a black person--because more criminals as a whole are white than black. In this case, however, the shooters do in fact tend to be white.

Where it gets problematic is when you talk about white guys needing to get their act together, when shooters are a minority of a minority of a minority of white people. What do I need to get together as a white guy?

I'm much more on board with calling out the right wing, because there is a direct correlation with some of their beliefs and these actions. Stop acting like terrorists are mostly brown people, or left-wing, for example. Stop embracing the racists. But even then I stop short of blaming them. Just fix the parts of your ideology that encourage this sort of thing, and kick out the radicalizers, rather than embracing them simply because they are anti-liberal.
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Old 08-04-2019, 02:02 PM
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What do I need to get together as a white guy?
That depends. What are you doing already?
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Old 08-04-2019, 02:53 PM
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I just wonder where all those highly skilled, gun-toting, very helpful in a active shooter sitch, Trump voting, white guys were at in these two incidents? Hmmmm?
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Old 08-04-2019, 03:11 PM
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Where it gets problematic is when you talk about white guys needing to get their act together, when shooters are a minority of a minority of a minority of white people. What do I need to get together as a white guy?
But that's how racism works. When you hear "Mass shooters tend to be white men," you're supposed to conclude "White men tend to be mass shooters."

Maybe you're just not racist enough.
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Old 08-05-2019, 06:24 PM
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I just wonder where all those highly skilled, gun-toting, very helpful in a active shooter sitch, Trump voting, white guys were at in these two incidents? Hmmmm?
At least you wish they were there. But cops at the Dayton shooting managed to put down the shooter 30 seconds after the first shot. He still killed 9 people.

And to answer a likely question, what of some such guy was there? He probably would have been killed also if he didn't have sufficient warning.
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Old 08-05-2019, 07:21 PM
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At least you wish they were there. But cops at the Dayton shooting managed to put down the shooter 30 seconds after the first shot. He still killed 9 people.

And to answer a likely question, what of some such guy was there? He probably would have been killed also if he didn't have sufficient warning.

IIRC there was a "good guy with a gun", an actual member of the US military, said good guy with a concealed carry permit, at the El Paso shooting. He did not stop the carnage, although the reports I heard said he did save some.
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Old 08-05-2019, 07:24 PM
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At least you wish they were there. But cops at the Dayton shooting managed to put down the shooter 30 seconds after the first shot. He still killed 9 people.

And to answer a likely question, what of some such guy was there? He probably would have been killed also if he didn't have sufficient warning.
Well...I done quoted the whole thing because I didn't know how to break it up. First, I think Beck was being sarcastic, and that she does not in fact wish they were there. I could be wrong, she is a woman of mystery.

For my part, I'm glad the good guys with guns were either absent or quietly shitting themselves in the snack aisle (as they've been told they would be). Because a bad guy with a gun looks just like a good guy with a gun. And another good guy with a hero complex gun might just grease another good guy. If you ain't wearing a uniform, do not engage in combat. And good job, cops. (Let the record show I have expressed sincere appreciation for the cops, at least in this instance.)

Lastly, given 1) the non-appearance of good guys with guns, 2) the pretty damned fast appearance of lead-spraying policemen, and 3) the staggeringly-high body count; I'd be interested in hearing theories from 2nd amendment diehards about why banning semiautomatic rifles is a nonstarter. I can't be arsed to do the math, but I am willing to believe more Americans have died at each other's muzzles than have been put down in insurrection by the US government they say the 2nd was intended to protect us from. Yeah, let's count Kent State levels of insurrection putdown.
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Old 08-05-2019, 07:27 PM
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Where it gets problematic is when you talk about white guys needing to get their act together, when shooters are a minority of a minority of a minority of white people. What do I need to get together as a white guy?
When black dysfunction is the topic of discussion, conservatives are frequently chock full of suggestions for black people. "Knock the chips off your shoulder and stop blaming the Man for your problems." "Stop having out-of-wedlock babies." "Stop glorifying thug life and listening to gangsta rape." "Stop speaking Ebonics and assimilate". And those of us who aren't guilty of these sins are expected to rein in those who do. So in essence, all black people are told to "get our acts together". Even though most of us already do.

I don't know if white guys need to do more than anyone else to fix the mass shooter problem, to be honest. But what's good for the goose is good for the gander. If minority subcultures are expected to take responsibility for their problem children (black folk and Muslims being two that come to mind), then it is fair to hold white American males responsible for theirs. If it's not fair to make rando white guys accountable for rando white mass shooters, then it's also not fair to make rando brown and black people responsible for their shitty randos. As a progressive, you probably intuitively understand this. But lots of conservatives don't see the contradiction.
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Old 08-05-2019, 07:33 PM
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When black dysfunction is the topic of discussion, conservatives are frequently chock full of suggestions for black people. "Knock the chips off your shoulder and stop blaming the Man for your problems." "Stop having out-of-wedlock babies." "Stop glorifying thug life and listening to gangsta rape." "Stop speaking Ebonics and assimilate". And those of us who aren't guilty of these sins are expected to rein in those who do. So in essence, all black people are told to "get our acts together". Even though most of us already do.

I don't know if white guys need to do more than anyone else to fix the mass shooter problem, to be honest. But what's good for the goose is good for the gander. If minority subcultures are expected to take responsibility for their problem children (black folk and Muslims being two that come to mind), then it is fair to hold white American males responsible for theirs. If it's not fair to make rando white guys accountable for rando white mass shooters, then it's also not fair to make rando brown and black people responsible for their shitty randos. As a progressive, you probably intuitively understand this. But lots of conservatives don't see the contradiction.
I guess itís fair to say, ďDonít shame me for not fixing a problem I didnít cause or contribute to and have no power over, and I wonít turn around and do the same to you.Ē
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Old 08-05-2019, 07:37 PM
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I feel old, I remember when they wouldn't call it terrorism if a white guy did it.
Guilty. Until fairly recently I have been loathe to give Rando credit for being anything more than an overly rambunctious murderer. Terrorists at least have some sort of goal and some semblance of organization. But now. Now I'm not so sure.

I was just musing to my cat today, as one does, about those who are ignorant of history are doomed to repeat it. It follows that unimaginative but ambitious folks can always look to history for ideas, and be reasonably sure (albeit unconsciously) that nobody will read ahead and cut them short as long as they dress the facts a little differently. So what we have is a dictatorial leader of government, despising with the most caustic venom a powerless minority, simultaneously dehumanizing and villainizing them, and saying, "Meh..." when very public violence is done to them. And we have similarly-minded people who read that indifference to suffering as a green light to get after that population. We now have a sort of organized group of people doing the violent bidding of a maniac. It just looks a little different on the outside because although we've seen this movie before, the actors and costumes and story details are a little different.

But yeah, Terrorists now.
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Old 08-05-2019, 07:49 PM
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I wouldn't actually assume that someone who pictures a white guy when hearing about a mass shooter is racist. It isn't the same as assuming a criminal is a black person--because more criminals as a whole are white than black. In this case, however, the shooters do in fact tend to be white.
Just to be a contentious dick, I'm going to say I read a cite that said something to the effect of, "This kind of shit is usually perped by a white guy, but overall white guy is not disproportionately represented." Point being, yeah more white trigger pumpers, because more white guys. I don't know that I buy it, but fuck you, this is The Pit. Any way, the presumption that a right wing white guy is pulling the trigger on an unarmed crowd--knowing nothing else about the sitch--is no less racist than assuming that watermelon was stolen by Ö well, let's see, nobody steals them from the store so we're probably looking for a financially-strapped rural person living in watermelon country. And not a white one, because don't nobody never seem to catch white boys stealing watermelons.

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Where it gets problematic is when you talk about white guys needing to get their act together, when shooters are a minority of a minority of a minority of white people. What do I need to get together as a white guy?
Point was bulls-eyed by monstro.
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Old 08-05-2019, 10:50 PM
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IIRC there was a "good guy with a gun", an actual member of the US military, said good guy with a concealed carry permit, at the El Paso shooting. He did not stop the carnage, although the reports I heard said he did save some.
Interesting. So we are glad he was there, right? It would have been worse without him?

The reason I ask is because I see a lot of pro-gun arguments on this board that boil down to making the perfect into the enemy of the good. Here is an example of something that lessened the impact of a shooting despite being unable to stop the shooting altogether.

So if it is an armed citizen who is lessening the impact of a shooting, we need them everywhere. But if it is a common sense gun law that does the exact same thing, we don't need those at all because they won't stop future shootings from happening. Oh wait, how many future shootings is this Good Samaritan going to stop?
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Old 08-05-2019, 10:59 PM
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I just wonder where all those highly skilled, gun-toting, very helpful in a active shooter sitch, Trump voting, white guys were at in these two incidents? Hmmmm?
Probably curled up in a corner, wetting their pants with their thumbs in their mouths.

Ammosexuals, be careful what you wish for; you just might get it.
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Old 08-05-2019, 11:06 PM
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IIRC there was a "good guy with a gun", an actual member of the US military, said good guy with a concealed carry permit, at the El Paso shooting. He did not stop the carnage, although the reports I heard said he did save some.
The one I saw interviewed (who, BTW, also happened to be black) knew that drawing his weapon was not a good idea, so that's why he grabbed a small child and ran as fast as possible in the opposite direction. The parents followed.

The police officer killed in that nightclub shooting a couple months ago died from "friendly fire" - i.e. he was accidentally shot by another officer. I just couldn't imagine having to live with that.

What really bothers me about crime demographics is when women pooh-pooh male crime victims, because wimmin. I don't get it either. Wrong is wrong.
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Old 08-06-2019, 05:01 AM
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crime victims, because wimmin. I don't get it either. Wrong is wrong.
Can you provide a specific example of this phenomenon? A blog, a tweet, or a message board post? Because I've never seen it before.
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Old 08-06-2019, 07:27 AM
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I'm not going to be shy about it: White people, esp white men as the white wimmins don't tend to do public violence, need to get their shit together and police their own before a government happens that might actually react to these shenanigans.
Get their shit together? I'd just as soon see white guys all go back to where they came from.
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Old 08-06-2019, 07:31 AM
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Trump gave a "God Bless" to each city. Problem solved.
Toledo, not Dayton. It's not far from Bowling Green.
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Old 08-06-2019, 08:02 AM
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When black dysfunction is the topic of discussion, conservatives are frequently chock full of suggestions for black people. "Knock the chips off your shoulder and stop blaming the Man for your problems." "Stop having out-of-wedlock babies." "Stop glorifying thug life and listening to gangsta rape." "Stop speaking Ebonics and assimilate". And those of us who aren't guilty of these sins are expected to rein in those who do. So in essence, all black people are told to "get our acts together". Even though most of us already do.

I don't know if white guys need to do more than anyone else to fix the mass shooter problem, to be honest. But what's good for the goose is good for the gander.
So we ban guns and out-of-wedlock births/gangsta rap? To be consistent.

Regards,
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Old 08-06-2019, 08:39 AM
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So we ban guns and out-of-wedlock births/gangsta rap? To be consistent.

Regards,
Shodan
An aggressive opening demand, but I can work with it. Marriage is overrated these days and really has nothing to do with love or babies. So let's not worry about out-of-wedlock spawn. We should eliminate gangsta rap, but also country music (Western is fine--that's all about keeping oneself to oneself, but that jingoistic, hypermasculine hillbilly shit is toxic). On the guns let's just ban automatic & semiautomatic rifles and see how that works.
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Old 08-06-2019, 09:06 AM
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So we ban guns and out-of-wedlock births/gangsta rap? To be consistent.

Regards,
Shodan
You'd have to also ban right-wing hate media as well to make it fair.
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Old 08-06-2019, 06:46 PM
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Will top guns like Gerry Miculek need to be registered? Miculek can probably kill more people with a six-shot revolver than your usual loony with an AR-15.
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Old 08-07-2019, 07:42 AM
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An aggressive opening demand, but I can work with it. Marriage is overrated these days and really has nothing to do with love or babies.
Marriage or the lack of it has a great deal to do with negative social outcomes of various sorts, since children raised by single parents (usually the mother) drop out of high school more, have lower educational outcomes in general, are more likely to commit a crime, are at greater risk of emotional disturbance, are more likely to be poor, if they are male are more likely to commit rape, and are at increased risk of abuse, including sexual abuse.

So you need to work a little harder with it, because you are mistaken.

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Shodan
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Old 08-07-2019, 07:44 AM
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Am not.
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Old 08-07-2019, 09:27 AM
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Most right wing race terrorists come from suburban homes with heterosexual, married parents. True fact, you can look it up.
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Old 08-07-2019, 09:35 AM
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Marriage or the lack of it has a great deal to do with negative social outcomes of various sorts, since children raised by single parents (usually the mother) drop out of high school more, have lower educational outcomes in general, are more likely to commit a crime, are at greater risk of emotional disturbance, are more likely to be poor, if they are male are more likely to commit rape, and are at increased risk of abuse, including sexual abuse.
Unmarried != single.
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Old 08-07-2019, 09:43 AM
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Unmarried != single.
This. The two couples I know who have been together the longest and seem the happiest have never been married. Also I'm in a committed relationship and although we've considered getting married, other than the party there doesn't seem to be a good reason.
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Old 08-07-2019, 10:11 AM
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Old 08-07-2019, 12:04 PM
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When black dysfunction is the topic of discussion, conservatives are frequently chock full of suggestions for black people. "Knock the chips off your shoulder and stop blaming the Man for your problems." "Stop having out-of-wedlock babies." "Stop glorifying thug life and listening to gangsta rape." "Stop speaking Ebonics and assimilate". And those of us who aren't guilty of these sins are expected to rein in those who do. So in essence, all black people are told to "get our acts together". Even though most of us already do.

I don't know if white guys need to do more than anyone else to fix the mass shooter problem, to be honest. But what's good for the goose is good for the gander. If minority subcultures are expected to take responsibility for their problem children (black folk and Muslims being two that come to mind), then it is fair to hold white American males responsible for theirs. If it's not fair to make rando white guys accountable for rando white mass shooters, then it's also not fair to make rando brown and black people responsible for their shitty randos. As a progressive, you probably intuitively understand this. But lots of conservatives don't see the contradiction.
Same kind of response is applied to issues of Islamic religious terrorism. Comfortable Americans suggest that followers of Islam should rein in the terrorists who assert they are doing Allah's will. But they are not at all comfortable if that question is turned on them. I once called out The Washington Post, hoary old liberal institution that it was, for using the term "Islamic terror" but not calling equivalent Irish troubles "Catholic terror" or abortion-clinic bombings "Baptist terror." They published my letter (mysteriously changing "Islamic" to "Muslim" terror), but roundly failed to call out Western religiously-inspired terror (or terror claiming to be religious.)

Most of us "white" people are far too comfortable calling on perceived others to police their own demographic but entirely blind to the idea that we should do the same -- because we don't think we have a demographic. Other people belong to this or that ethnic group and are responsible for that group's reputation; we're just people, not an ethnic group. This is one of the things activists call "privilege."
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Old 08-07-2019, 06:13 PM
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Most right wing race terrorists come from suburban homes with heterosexual, married parents. True fact, you can look it up.
So what? That could be said of practically half the U.S. population.

Heck--one could say that most right wing race terrorists also went to elementary school when they were children, celebrated birthdays and holidays, had access to computers and the internet, and had popcorn and soda at the movie theater at some point in their life.
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Old 08-08-2019, 11:09 AM
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Interesting. So we are glad he was there, right? It would have been worse without him?

[snip]

So if it is an armed citizen who is lessening the impact of a shooting, we need them everywhere.
Depends on what he did to "save some". In this case, it appears he didn't use his gun at all, so no, that doesn't count any more than the hundreds of other people who ran as fast as they could helping someone next to them. Having a gun played no role.

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The one I saw interviewed (who, BTW, also happened to be black) knew that drawing his weapon was not a good idea, so that's why he grabbed a small child and ran as fast as possible in the opposite direction. The parents followed.

The police officer killed in that nightclub shooting a couple months ago died from "friendly fire" - i.e. he was accidentally shot by another officer. I just couldn't imagine having to live with that.
That's the stray bullet problem: all the bullets fired by any armed "responders" (police or civilian) go somewhere. If they don't hit the shooter, where do they go? Do they hit someone else?

Then there's the case of the black man in Florida who pulled his gun in response to a shooter and was helping other people get out, he was shot by a security guard who mistakenly thought he was one of the shooters. OOPS!

That's the problem with being an armed civilian in the zone. How does anyone tell the good from the bad? You pull your gun in case you see the shooter you can shoot back, someone else does the same, then you see each other and think "there's the shooter". Or law enforcement does.


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Marriage or the lack of it has a great deal to do with negative social outcomes of various sorts, since children raised by single parents (usually the mother) drop out of high school more, have lower educational outcomes in general, are more likely to commit a crime, are at greater risk of emotional disturbance, are more likely to be poor, if they are male are more likely to commit rape, and are at increased risk of abuse, including sexual abuse.

So you need to work a little harder with it, because you are mistaken.
You addressed a different point than the one Inigo Montoya was making. People can love each other and have a long-term relationship without getting married. People can have babies and raise them in a two-parent home without getting married. Marriages don't mean permanent or even stable relationships - consider the divorce rate and consider people who live miserable family lives but are married.

It is true that marriage is a socially sanctioned way to establish a stable basis for a family. It's not the only one, and doesn't work as well as people might like.

Also, your assumptions are showing when you mention "drop out of high school". High school kids having babies is it's own problem. In most cases, marriage at that age wouldn't help, and would arguably hurt both the parents and the baby.
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Old 08-08-2019, 11:11 AM
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So what? That could be said of practically half the U.S. population.
It's a valid response to the claim that marriage is important in reducing crime. We're talking about a specific type of crime here, and the facts don't support that claim.
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Old 08-08-2019, 11:56 AM
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Location: Chicago-ish
Posts: 8,517
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCuse View Post
So what? That could be said of practically half the U.S. population.

Heck--one could say that most right wing race terrorists also went to elementary school when they were children, celebrated birthdays and holidays, had access to computers and the internet, and had popcorn and soda at the movie theater at some point in their life.
The signs are obvious, and everywhere. I'm with ya!
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