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  #51  
Old 07-17-2019, 06:37 AM
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If they can make the trains run on time, they are a Fascist.

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  #52  
Old 07-17-2019, 07:07 AM
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Right, but his definition is how I see the word used most often, lately.
Where is it you guys are hearing the word ďfascismĒ these days? Maybe I donít get out enough, but I havenít heard anyone use the term other than historically (Hitler, etc.) or in reference to Trump. Both uses seem legitimate and non controversial. Are people really calling people like Bernie or Romney fascists?
  #53  
Old 07-17-2019, 07:19 AM
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Didn't hippies toss out the word from time to time in reference to the fuzz constabulary?
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Old 07-17-2019, 07:22 AM
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I think that Trump supporters resent being called out for embracing fascism. They still want to embrace fascism, they just don't think it's nice that we make them feel bad about it.
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Old 07-18-2019, 07:52 AM
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Interesting, I was just looking at the websters online dictionary and wikipedia definition of this word last night.

Trump et al are (seemingly) a textbook fascist group, as far as I can tell. Obama and congress at that time had some facist qualities, but were not fascists per sť. Were/are there people labeling Mr. Obama as fascist? I seem to remember it, but can't say for certain.
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  #56  
Old 07-18-2019, 10:11 AM
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Fringe groups were comparing him to the Nazis for health care, for one example. I only remember it because of one viral example where Barney Franks schooled someone who was holding up a poster showing obamhitler and asked Barney about the "nazi policy" of obamacare.
  #57  
Old 07-18-2019, 11:25 AM
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I think that Trump supporters resent being called out for embracing fascism. They still want to embrace fascism, they just don't think it's nice that we make them feel bad about it.
The deal is still on the table: We'll be nice to them if they stop being stupid fascists.
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  #58  
Old 07-18-2019, 12:48 PM
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The deal is still on the table: We'll be nice to them if they stop being stupid fascists.
I donít know man, thereís going to come a point where an awful lot of Trump supporters are going to try to walk back a lot of their actions and words, Iím not at all prepared to let it slide with out some contrition.
  #59  
Old 07-18-2019, 02:20 PM
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The deal is still on the table: We'll be nice to them if they stop being stupid fascists.
Too many people on this rock as it is. I say we round up people who have demonstrated a willingness to nurture and champion fascist views, sterilize them, and put them to work in highly supervised closed communities. For their own safety, of course.

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  #60  
Old 07-18-2019, 02:37 PM
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I donít know man, thereís going to come a point where an awful lot of Trump supporters are going to try to walk back a lot of their actions and words...
Why do you think this will happen?
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Old 07-18-2019, 02:39 PM
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Too many people on this rock as it is. I say we round up people ...
"we"?
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Old 07-18-2019, 02:52 PM
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I donít know man, thereís going to come a point where an awful lot of Trump supporters are going to try to walk back a lot of their actions and words, Iím not at all prepared to let it slide with out some contrition.
Fortunately, the images of the many fascist rallies they attended are well documented.
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Old 07-18-2019, 03:07 PM
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Too many people on this rock as it is. I say we round up people who have demonstrated a willingness to nurture and champion fascist views, sterilize them, and put them to work in highly supervised closed communities. For their own safety, of course.
Remember how we talked about private thoughts and public thoughts?

Now, see what you've done?...

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"we"?
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  #64  
Old 07-18-2019, 03:21 PM
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Why do you think this will happen?
I think people like you will reach a point where you look your children in the eye, see the deep disappointment and shame, and realize that you got caught up in a whirlwind of racism, fear and ignorance. At least I hope you all have a moment of clarity like that, for your own sakes.
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Old 07-18-2019, 03:36 PM
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I think people like you will reach a point where you look your children in the eye, see the deep disappointment and shame, and realize that you got caught up in a whirlwind of racism, fear and ignorance. At least I hope you all have a moment of clarity like that, for your own sakes.
He's right. "Why do you think this will happen?"

We need to come to terms with the very real fact that overwhelmingly they knowingly voted their true hearts' desire.
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  #66  
Old 07-18-2019, 04:01 PM
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True, but fascism is unsustainable and short lived, it will flame out and red state America will be worse off than it was before. Looking at their rejection of science, for example, there will come a point when it is clear that their children have less prosperous futures because we didn't do anything to combat climate change. Red staters with young children now will live with the reality that they actively blocked attempts to ensure their children's future and their children will realize this as it won't be possible to hide behind racist chants and red hats; their reality will be bleak. Fascism either collapses from within, or it is defeated by outside forces, but there's always a bill to pay.
  #67  
Old 07-18-2019, 04:33 PM
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Remember how we talked about private thoughts and public thoughts?

Now, see what you've done?...
I know...I'm not in a "love conquers hate" sort of place this week. This week I feel like punching Nazis and making them watch me give their lunch money to non-English-speaking brown children. Or Native American scholarships even. Not because violence and thievery are right and just, but because they have it coming to them for thinking violence and thievery are right and just.
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  #68  
Old 07-18-2019, 05:13 PM
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I know...I'm not in a "love conquers hate" sort of place this week. This week I feel like punching Nazis and making them watch me give their lunch money to non-English-speaking brown children. Or Native American scholarships even. Not because violence and thievery are right and just, but because they have it coming to them for thinking violence and thievery are right and just.
Ah...Nazis. Where would this board be without them? They allow us to voice fantasies that, if the targets were anyone else, would be totally unacceptable here. It's wonderful, too, isn't it, that just who is a Nazi is rather nebulous? All the actual Nazis, who would describe themselves as Nazis, that I ever met were poor, ignorant, angry, and abusing at least one chemical. Fantasizing about inflicting even more misery on such already miserable people would be kind of base, I think. Luckily, the term now encompasses such a huge swath of the American public, virtually anybody who the writer doesn't like, that we can happily talk about punching Nazis without that awkward business of their actual demographic and lack of significant numbers nationally.
  #69  
Old 07-18-2019, 05:21 PM
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Ah...Nazis. Where would this board be without them? They allow us to voice fantasies that, if the targets were anyone else, would be totally unacceptable here. It's wonderful, too, isn't it, that just who is a Nazi is rather nebulous? All the actual Nazis, who would describe themselves as Nazis, that I ever met were poor, ignorant, angry, and abusing at least one chemical. Fantasizing about inflicting even more misery on such already miserable people would be kind of base, I think. Luckily, the term now encompasses such a huge swath of the American public, virtually anybody who the writer doesn't like, that we can happily talk about punching Nazis without that awkward business of their actual demographic and lack of significant numbers nationally.
Would you consider Richard Spencer a Nazi?
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Old 07-18-2019, 05:57 PM
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Ah...Nazis. Where would this board be without them? They allow us to voice fantasies that, if the targets were anyone else, would be totally unacceptable here. It's wonderful, too, isn't it, that just who is a Nazi is rather nebulous? All the actual Nazis, who would describe themselves as Nazis, that I ever met were poor, ignorant, angry, and abusing at least one chemical. Fantasizing about inflicting even more misery on such already miserable people would be kind of base, I think. Luckily, the term now encompasses such a huge swath of the American public, virtually anybody who the writer doesn't like, that we can happily talk about punching Nazis without that awkward business of their actual demographic and lack of significant numbers nationally.
But, we provided definitions and then applied our observations to that definition. Nice try though.
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Old 07-18-2019, 06:11 PM
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Would you consider Richard Spencer a Nazi?
I consider people who call themselves Nazis to be Nazis. Spencer is a racist asshole and I think that is all the descriptor he needs.
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Old 07-18-2019, 07:46 PM
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I consider people who call themselves Nazis to be Nazis. Spencer is a racist asshole and I think that is all the descriptor he needs.
But this--and I can't believe I'm typing this--This does Spencer a disservice. He's not just some drunk ranting against blacks and Jews. He's got ideas on how politics should work, on how movements should be formed, and they are often drawn from Nazi and other fascist sources. He may eschew the "Nazi" label as he knows it's not a good look, but his ideas are straight from the Third Reich"s court philosophers.

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  #73  
Old 07-18-2019, 07:51 PM
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Ah...Nazis. Where would this board be without them? They allow us to voice fantasies that, if the targets were anyone else, would be totally unacceptable here. It's wonderful, too, isn't it, that just who is a Nazi is rather nebulous? All the actual Nazis, who would describe themselves as Nazis, that I ever met were poor, ignorant, angry, and abusing at least one chemical. Fantasizing about inflicting even more misery on such already miserable people would be kind of base, I think. Luckily, the term now encompasses such a huge swath of the American public, virtually anybody who the writer doesn't like, that we can happily talk about punching Nazis without that awkward business of their actual demographic and lack of significant numbers nationally.
Brace yourself....


...whatever, dude.


I have witnesses! I was provoked!
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  #74  
Old 07-18-2019, 08:20 PM
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True, but fascism is unsustainable and short lived, it will flame out and red state America will be worse off than it was before. Looking at their rejection of science, for example, there will come a point when it is clear that their children have less prosperous futures because we didn't do anything to combat climate change. Red staters with young children now will live with the reality that they actively blocked attempts to ensure their children's future and their children will realize this as it won't be possible to hide behind racist chants and red hats; their reality will be bleak. Fascism either collapses from within, or it is defeated by outside forces, but there's always a bill to pay.
As it stands now, the red areas are financially dependent on the blue areas. Urban areas pay more in taxes than they get in benefits while blue states do the same thing. Its the opposite for rural counties and red states.

So as long as the blue counties and blue states keep paying the bills for the red states, they're going to keep doing fine. If they were cut off from the financial funds, then they'd collapse.

Hillary Clinton only won 500 or so counties in 2016, while Trump won 2500. But the counties Hillary won tended to be urban, Trump rural. So the counties Hillary won made up something like 2/3 of the US GDP, while the other 1/3 was in Trump counties.

If the US were broken down into blue vs red counties, their respective GDPs would be about 12 trillion vs 6 trillion respectively. If the red counties had to pay their own bills, they'd collapse.

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/the-a...utput-america/
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  #75  
Old 07-18-2019, 08:32 PM
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But this--and I can't believe I'm typing this--This does Spencer a disservice. He's not just some drunk ranting against blacks and Jews. He's got ideas on how politics should work, on how movements should be formed, and they are often drawn from Nazi and other fascist sources. He may eschew the "Nazi" label as he knows it's not a good look, but his ideas are straight from the Third Reich"s court philosophers.
Here's the thing...there are people on this board who would call that drunk a Nazi and masturbate themselves to sleep fantasizing about punching him. You are free, and correct, to consider Spencer a loathesome bigot. I, however, don't like to dilute the word "Nazi." Nazis, to me, remain people who self-identify as Nazis. As I have noted, they are IME people from the bottom of the socio-economic foodchain. If they were brown people who belonged to violent gangs, I expect you would say they needed help. But, I know, it's fun to have fantasies of righteous assbeatings delivered upon those Hitler-heiling douchebags.
  #76  
Old 07-18-2019, 09:26 PM
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Here's the thing...there are people on this board who would call that drunk a Nazi and masturbate themselves to sleep fantasizing about punching him. You are free, and correct, to consider Spencer a loathesome bigot. I, however, don't like to dilute the word "Nazi." Nazis, to me, remain people who self-identify as Nazis. As I have noted, they are IME people from the bottom of the socio-economic foodchain. If they were brown people who belonged to violent gangs, I expect you would say they needed help. But, I know, it's fun to have fantasies of righteous assbeatings delivered upon those Hitler-heiling douchebags.
I don't know or want to know what dopers masturbate to, so I can't comment on the first bit.

For the rest I can only repeat that there's a lot more to fascism than race hatred. Contempt for Democracy and institutions, including a free press. Military worship, Nationalism. Etc. It's possible to envision a fascist society that doesn't involve racism, though I can't think of any examples.

Last edited by engineer_comp_geek; 07-19-2019 at 11:26 AM. Reason: fixed typo caused by autocorrect
  #77  
Old 07-18-2019, 09:32 PM
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Ah...Nazis. Where would this board be without them? They allow us to voice fantasies that, if the targets were anyone else, would be totally unacceptable here. It's wonderful, too, isn't it, that just who is a Nazi is rather nebulous? ... Luckily, the term now encompasses such a huge swath of the American public, virtually anybody who the writer doesn't like, that we can happily talk about punching Nazis without that awkward business of their actual demographic and lack of significant numbers nationally.
But when you start rounding people up and putting them in concentration camps, the comparisons are inevitable. If you guys want people to stop comparing you to Nazis, stop doing things that invite the comparison.

And now let's address the rest of your post:

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All the actual Nazis, who would describe themselves as Nazis, that I ever met were poor, ignorant, angry, and abusing at least one chemical. Fantasizing about inflicting even more misery on such already miserable people would be kind of base, I think.
I think you failed to read the room. Very few people are going to share your sympathy for the poor beleaguered Nazis. Regardless of whatever hardships they've experienced, choosing to become a Nazi was the wrong response.

I'll point out that most people, unlike you, don't know any Nazis personally. So whatever social circles you're hanging out in where you see these Nazis are probably places where you should stop going.
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Old 07-18-2019, 09:38 PM
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It's possible to envision a fascist society that doesn't involve racism, though I can't think of any examples.
I don't think it's possible. I think fascism needs an enemy in order to exist. It gives the fascist movement a focus for the hatred it calls upon from its followers. And as a bonus, it gives the fascists somebody convenient to blame for all the problems that are going to exist in any society run by a fascist regime.
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Old 07-18-2019, 11:38 PM
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But when you start rounding people up and putting them in concentration camps, the comparisons are inevitable. If you guys want people to stop comparing you to Nazis, stop doing things that invite the comparison.

And now let's address the rest of your post:



I think you failed to read the room. Very few people are going to share your sympathy for the poor beleaguered Nazis. Regardless of whatever hardships they've experienced, choosing to become a Nazi was the wrong response.

I'll point out that most people, unlike you, don't know any Nazis personally. So whatever social circles you're hanging out in where you see these Nazis are probably places where you should stop going.
You were a screw. How many educated, wealthy Nazis did you know? The difference, I guess, between you and me, is that when I look at someone who is the product of poverty, ignorance, and anger, I don't think his skin color is what matters most. Clearly, "reading the room" is your priority.
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Old 07-19-2019, 06:19 AM
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Ah...Nazis. Where would this board be without them? They allow us to voice fantasies that, if the targets were anyone else, would be totally unacceptable here. It's wonderful, too, isn't it, that just who is a Nazi is rather nebulous? All the actual Nazis, who would describe themselves as Nazis, that I ever met were poor, ignorant, angry, and abusing at least one chemical. Fantasizing about inflicting even more misery on such already miserable people would be kind of base, I think. Luckily, the term now encompasses such a huge swath of the American public, virtually anybody who the writer doesn't like, that we can happily talk about punching Nazis without that awkward business of their actual demographic and lack of significant numbers nationally.
This bit by John Cleese summed it up very well.

"The biggest advantage of extremism is that it makes you feel GOOD because it provides you with enemies. Let me explain. The great thing about having enemies is that you can pretend that all the badness in the whole world is in your enemies, and all the goodness in the whole world is in YOU. Attractive, isn't it?

So, if you have a lot of anger and resentment in you anyway and you therefore enjoy abusing people, then you can pretend that you're only doing it because these enemies of yours are such very bad persons!

And if it wasn't for them, you'd actually be good natured, and courteous, and rational all the time. So, if you want to FEEL GOOD, become an extremist. You can strut around, abusing people, and telling them you could eat them for breakfast and still think of yourself as a champion of the truth. A fighter for the greater good. And not the rather sad paranoid schizoid that you really are."
  #81  
Old 07-19-2019, 06:37 AM
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As it stands now, the red areas are financially dependent on the blue areas. Urban areas pay more in taxes than they get in benefits while blue states do the same thing. Its the opposite for rural counties and red states.

So as long as the blue counties and blue states keep paying the bills for the red states, they're going to keep doing fine. If they were cut off from the financial funds, then they'd collapse.

Hillary Clinton only won 500 or so counties in 2016, while Trump won 2500. But the counties Hillary won tended to be urban, Trump rural. So the counties Hillary won made up something like 2/3 of the US GDP, while the other 1/3 was in Trump counties.

If the US were broken down into blue vs red counties, their respective GDPs would be about 12 trillion vs 6 trillion respectively. If the red counties had to pay their own bills, they'd collapse.

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/the-a...utput-america/
Exactly my point, fascism always collapses eventually, in no small part because it attracts people least capable of self-governance. The question isn't whether Trump and the GOP are fascistic, they obviously are. The question is what do we do about it and what will America look like when it inevitably ends?

Will we once again let the losers write history like we did after the civil war, or will we finally ask ourselves the existential question of America: "is it possible to have a democracy when almost half the people in your country do not value it and are hostile to the rule of law?" If the answer is no, then maybe it would be better to cut our losses with red state America, we've been trying to drag them along for over 200 years, maybe that's long enough.
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Old 07-19-2019, 09:35 AM
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Here's the thing...there are people on this board who would call that drunk a Nazi and masturbate themselves to sleep fantasizing about punching him. You are free, and correct, to consider Spencer a loathesome bigot. I, however, don't like to dilute the word "Nazi." Nazis, to me, remain people who self-identify as Nazis. As I have noted, they are IME people from the bottom of the socio-economic foodchain. If they were brown people who belonged to violent gangs, I expect you would say they needed help. But, I know, it's fun to have fantasies of righteous assbeatings delivered upon those Hitler-heiling douchebags.
you don't have to wear the uniform.

if he doesn't want people to think he's a duck, he needs to stop quacking like one.
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Old 07-19-2019, 10:04 AM
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You were a screw.
A screw? Did you learn your prison lingo from drive-in movies? I was a hack.

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when I look at someone who is the product of poverty, ignorance, and anger, I don't think his skin color is what matters most.
Nothing you've ever posted supports this.
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Old 07-19-2019, 10:31 AM
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Here's the thing...there are people on this board who would call that drunk a Nazi and masturbate themselves to sleep fantasizing about punching him. You are free, and correct, to consider Spencer a loathesome bigot. I, however, don't like to dilute the word "Nazi." Nazis, to me, remain people who self-identify as Nazis. As I have noted, they are IME people from the bottom of the socio-economic foodchain. If they were brown people who belonged to violent gangs, I expect you would say they needed help. But, I know, it's fun to have fantasies of righteous assbeatings delivered upon those Hitler-heiling douchebags.
Really? Who claims MS-13 gangs in Honduras need our help and sympathy? The societies in which they thrive need help. If people had better options, they'd be less likely to join gangs. Those things are true. But if you are currently a violent gang member, what you need is to go to prison for a period of time that fits the crime you committed.

Nazi-ism is an ideology we understand very well and we know where it leads. We have every reason to discourage its proliferation in society. That may include a righteous ass-beating as warranted.
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Old 07-19-2019, 01:27 PM
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Nazi-ism is an ideology we understand very well and we know where it leads. We have every reason to discourage its proliferation in society. That may include a righteous ass-beating as warranted.
Considering how the first round of Nazis ended up, we're doing the current Nazis a favor by getting them out. Hitler himself would have been better off in the long run if somebody had punched him in the face in 1920.
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