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Old 06-06-2016, 08:52 PM
lance strongarm is offline
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Sexual assault?


I saw a recent news item about a young man who was assaulted by an object being inserted into his rectum recently.

No doubt this is a terrible attack and the attackers should be convicted of a serious crime and pay for it.

I find it a little strange, though, that it was labeled a sexual assault.

The object used to penetrate was not a penis, or even a sex toy.

The rectum is also not a sex organ.

The attacker, as far as I know, got no sexual gratification out of it.

Obviously, a penis in the butt is still a sex act, and a foreign object in a vagina would be a sex act, but the only thing that makes a foreign object in the butt sexual is its resemblance to a sex act. It can be, sure, but all by itself in a situation devoid of all over sexual acts or sexual gratification, it isn't quite. Should it be classified as simply aggravated assault instead of sexual assault?
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Old 06-06-2016, 09:00 PM
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It kind of depends on the language that the perpetrators used during the assault.
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Old 06-06-2016, 09:11 PM
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If I read this in the news, I wouldn't have questioned the type of assault (if there was no more to the article than what you have shared here), but after reading your opinion, I completely agree with you, this should be aggravated assault and not a sexual assault.
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Old 06-06-2016, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by lance strongarm View Post
The rectum is also not a sex organ.
For some people it's their ONLY sex organ.
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Old 06-06-2016, 09:41 PM
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A rectum is a sexual organ the same way breasts are....and if you go up to a stranger and start fondling her breasts, that would be sexual assault.
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Old 06-06-2016, 09:46 PM
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It's in the groinal area... It's "your privates."

In some places, if you expose your buttocks, you can be charged with a "sex crime."

I'm perfectly okay with calling "anal rape via instrument" a sex crime.
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Old 06-06-2016, 11:34 PM
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Originally Posted by panache45 View Post
For some people it's their ONLY sex organ.
Perhaps you meant that it is their only receptive sex organ, and even then that would only be true for a very small number of people (if we include the mouth).

The anus (and the rectum and, for men, the prostate) can easily become sexualized due to the large number of nerve endings there. There is a significant portion* of the population (not just gay men but also straight women and men) who get sexual pleasure from that area.

So I'm with Dangerosa and Trinopus that forcible insertion of a foreign object into someone's rectum should be categorized as a sex crime. For men especially, considering the opprobrium that still attaches (at least publicly, at least in certain circles) to men who receive in the act of anal sex, such an act against a man could possibly also qualify as a hate crime.

*We have to rely on sexual surveys for frequency, but I don't think that anyone could argue with "significant portion."
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Old 06-06-2016, 11:45 PM
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So wouldn't a kick in the nuts be a sex crime?
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Old 06-06-2016, 11:58 PM
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Originally Posted by lance strongarm View Post
I find it a little strange, though, that it was labeled a sexual assault.
I find it strange that you would find this strange. To the best of my knowledge it's typical for non-consensual anal penetration to be considered a sex crime. The only places I'd expect to hear that it wasn't banned as rape, sexual assault, or similar would be places that still have anti-sodomy laws banning all anal penetration whether it's consensual or not.
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Old 06-06-2016, 11:59 PM
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Depends on who's kicking ...
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Old 06-07-2016, 12:03 AM
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Sexual assault is defined as specific acts by law. So if you think non-consensual penetration of the anus by an inanimate object shouldn't qualify, write your state legislator.
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Old 06-07-2016, 12:05 AM
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I can see anal penetration as definitely being a sex crime, but other areas it can get harder to draw the line. I've had my nose up a butt a couple of times, once by force and once by an admittedly hilarious prank.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sl5lz9CNlkE

Nose up butt, so not necessarily safe for work.
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Old 06-07-2016, 02:46 AM
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This is displayed on tapatalk. Wayyy tmi.
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Old 06-07-2016, 03:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Trinopus View Post
It's in the groinal area... It's "your privates."

In some places, if you expose your buttocks, you can be charged with a "sex crime."

I'm perfectly okay with calling "anal rape via instrument" a sex crime.
This.

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Originally Posted by Lamia View Post
I find it strange that you would find this strange. To the best of my knowledge it's typical for non-consensual anal penetration to be considered a sex crime. The only places I'd expect to hear that it wasn't banned as rape, sexual assault, or similar would be places that still have anti-sodomy laws banning all anal penetration whether it's consensual or not.
And even more this. In fact, you would have to convince me that anyone stuck an object up another person's anus, without their consent, unless intending a form of sexual assault in most cases.
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Old 06-07-2016, 03:22 AM
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So wouldn't a kick in the nuts be a sex crime?
I remember being 12yo getting kneed in the nuts so hard by a girl so hard it left a bruise that was black and blue. I did nothing to merit such an action. And I remember feeling quite freaked out over the situation.

Maybe I'm biased, but I'd say any sort of assault on your man bits is a sex crime. Less so than having something forcibly stuck up your anus. But still a sex crime.
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Old 06-07-2016, 08:05 AM
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Statutory language is custom made. It could have been done without the sexual label. I would have labeled it plain old battery.

I guess a lot of lawmakers think the anus is sexy.
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Old 06-07-2016, 08:45 AM
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Yes, I agree with the OP, among the totality of our perfect and ideal system of jurisprudence the dissonance of this law stands out like a vulture in a flock of swans. There is no greater injustice than prosecuting someone for a sex crime for non-sexually raping a disabled person in the ass with a wire hanger. This is why people have no respect for the law anymore.
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Old 06-07-2016, 08:48 AM
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Statutory language is custom made. It could have been done without the sexual label. I would have labeled it plain old battery.

I guess a lot of lawmakers think the anus is sexy.
...You (and others in this thread) really don't get how shoving something up someone's ass is a sex thing? Have you guys, like, not watched a lot of porn lately, or something? If someone showed you their asshole, you wouldn't think it was a sex thing? If a stranger stuck something inside your 12-year-old kid's anus, even something like a thermometer, you wouldn't think there was anything untoward about it?

Anal penetration is typically associated with sex. Not just any sex, either - degrading, vulgar, sex. And with men, gay sex. That's the connotation. This is a very long-standing cultural thing, and I find it hard to believe that anyone would actually miss that.
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Old 06-07-2016, 09:12 AM
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Also rape and sexual assault isn't about sexy sex. Its about using sex to degrade or harm someone someone.

Getting punched in the boob or kicked in the nuts isn't using sex to degrade someone. Its assault, but the strikes themselves aren't what we associate with sex. Fondling someone against their will, penetrating them against their will - orally, vaginally or anally - those things are sexual in nature and are being used to degrade and harm someone.
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Old 06-07-2016, 09:15 AM
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"shoving something up someone's ass is a sex thing"

sorry but no

to me the anus is dirty, nasty, stinky thing, it's just not sexy

I get that I'm in the minority here, our general culture ties the anus to sex. I don't, so I guess I'm swimming against the tide.
  #21  
Old 06-07-2016, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by GulfTiger View Post
"shoving something up someone's ass is a sex thing"

sorry but no

to me the anus is dirty, nasty, stinky thing, it's just not sexy

I get that I'm in the minority here, our general culture ties the anus to sex. I don't, so I guess I'm swimming against the tide.
Okay, so you understand that most of society understands anal penetration as a sex thing. That's really all that's needed for this case. I know men who aren't into breasts, and don't see breasts as sexual. This doesn't somehow make fondling someone's breasts without their consent sexual assault.
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Old 06-07-2016, 09:32 AM
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Is it sexual assault? It really depends on how sexual assault is defined in the statutes for each jurisdiction. In New Jersey it certainly is sexual assault. I think it would be in most states although some they have a separate sodomy statute (such as Oklahoma that was recently in the news for misleading headlines like this).

Quote:
Originally Posted by lance strongarm
Should it be classified as simply aggravated assault instead of sexual assault?
Should it be is a different question. Instead of beating the hell out of someone, the suspect holds down the victim and inserts an object into the anus. You don't see how that is different? Maybe there is no sexual gratification such as the suspect's sexual organ being simulated but it is done in order to sexually abuse or humiliate the victim.
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Old 06-07-2016, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by GulfTiger View Post
"shoving something up someone's ass is a sex thing"

sorry but no

to me the anus is dirty, nasty, stinky thing, it's just not sexy

I get that I'm in the minority here, our general culture ties the anus to sex. I don't, so I guess I'm swimming against the tide.
One person's opinion on the sexiness of an act is not the basis for a statute.
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Old 06-07-2016, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by GulfTiger View Post
"shoving something up someone's ass is a sex thing"

sorry but no

to me the anus is dirty, nasty, stinky thing, it's just not sexy

I get that I'm in the minority here, our general culture ties the anus to sex. I don't, so I guess I'm swimming against the tide.
I think a lot of people feel this way. That's often the motivation for anal rape--either with a penis or an object. The rapist isn't doing it for his own sexual gratification, but rather to disgust and humiliate his victim because it's a sexual act that many people would resist and find degrading.

If you were anally raped, do you really think it wouldn't feel like rape to you because to you anal sex isn't normally appealing?
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Old 06-07-2016, 10:30 AM
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A rectum is a sexual organ the same way breasts are.
Really? Just because people use it for sex sometimes? By that logic, the hand is a sex organ.
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Old 06-07-2016, 10:31 AM
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Should it be is a different question. Instead of beating the hell out of someone, the suspect holds down the victim and inserts an object into the anus. You don't see how that is different?
It's different, but that doesn't make it sexual.

Quote:
Maybe there is no sexual gratification such as the suspect's sexual organ being simulated but it is done in order to sexually abuse or humiliate the victim.
Again, it's abusive and humiliating, but that doesn't automatically make it sexual.
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Old 06-07-2016, 10:33 AM
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I find it strange that you would find this strange. To the best of my knowledge it's typical for non-consensual anal penetration to be considered a sex crime. .
So? I'm asking why. That's just a circular argument.
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Old 06-07-2016, 10:34 AM
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So wouldn't a kick in the nuts be a sex crime?
Yes. Great point.
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Old 06-07-2016, 10:38 AM
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It's not a great point. It's not even a point.

Penetrating someone's anus with an object is most commonly done as a sexual act. Kicking someone in the balls is not. Different things are different.

Sexual assault isn't about what's sexy.

Last edited by Jimmy Chitwood; 06-07-2016 at 10:40 AM.
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Old 06-07-2016, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by lance strongarm View Post
It's different, but that doesn't make it sexual.
If the suspect penetrates a vagina with an object but doesn't derive any sexual gratification from it does that mean it should just be assault as well?

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Originally Posted by lance strongarm View Post
Again, it's abusive and humiliating, but that doesn't automatically make it sexual.
Other acts can be abusive and humiliating to varying degrees. Being penetrated anally is especially abusive and humiliating (as well as degrading and physically harmful) because it is sexual.

Lets say I hit you over the head with a club or forcibly penetrated you with that club you would feel both acts are equal?
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Old 06-07-2016, 01:34 PM
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What if the victim has a bag over their head and they are not sure what they are being anally penetrated with. Is it both sexual assault and not sexual assault until the waveform collapses?
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Old 06-07-2016, 01:55 PM
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It's not a great point. It's not even a point.

Penetrating someone's anus with an object is most commonly done as a sexual act. Kicking someone in the balls is not. Different things are different.

Sexual assault isn't about what's sexy.
So is administering an enema a sex act?

Is breastfeeding a sex act?
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Old 06-07-2016, 01:58 PM
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If the suspect penetrates a vagina with an object but doesn't derive any sexual gratification from it does that mean it should just be assault as well?
No, because the vagina is undeniably a sex organ.

Quote:
Other acts can be abusive and humiliating to varying degrees. Being penetrated anally is especially abusive and humiliating (as well as degrading and physically harmful) because it is sexual.
Whoa -so if it weren't sexual it wouldn't be abusive and humiliating?

Quote:
Lets say I hit you over the head with a club or forcibly penetrated you with that club you would feel both acts are equal?
No, but that doesn't mean they're sexual.

If I shoved the club down your throat, would that be a sex act?
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Old 06-07-2016, 02:06 PM
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So is administering an enema a sex act?

Is breastfeeding a sex act?
You could pick a porn site and use the search engine to find out.


Is a pap smear, a sex act? The vagina seems to be a hard and fast rule for you.
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Old 06-07-2016, 02:10 PM
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No, because the vagina is undeniably a sex organ.



Whoa -so if it weren't sexual it wouldn't be abusive and humiliating?



No, but that doesn't mean they're sexual.

If I shoved the club down your throat, would that be a sex act?

Your best bet, lance, should you personally ever find yourself held down and penetrated with an object against your will, is to petition the prosecutor not to charge your assailant with a sex crime. I'm sure they'll cooperate when they learn how strongly you feel about it.
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Old 06-07-2016, 02:20 PM
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Context and customary associations are not difficult concepts.
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Old 06-07-2016, 02:32 PM
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Context and customary associations are not difficult concepts.
Seriously. C'mon guys. This is just ridiculous.

Last edited by Budget Player Cadet; 06-07-2016 at 02:32 PM.
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Old 06-07-2016, 02:44 PM
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Is a pap smear, a sex act? The vagina seems to be a hard and fast rule for you.
Not all penetration is a sex act, no, but I'd say all nonconsensual penetration is. But maybe not. Maybe that could be non-sexual too, such as if someone were trying to steal something stashed in a vagina, I guess.
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Old 06-07-2016, 02:45 PM
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Your best bet, lance, should you personally ever find yourself held down and penetrated with an object against your will, is to petition the prosecutor not to charge your assailant with a sex crime. I'm sure they'll cooperate when they learn how strongly you feel about it.
Where did you get the idea that I feel strongly about it?

I'm just posing a question for fun, and challenging the answers. It's no big deal. Relax.
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Old 06-07-2016, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by lance strongarm View Post
Not all penetration is a sex act, no, but I'd say all nonconsensual penetration is. But maybe not. Maybe that could be non-sexual too, such as if someone were trying to steal something stashed in a vagina, I guess.
Are you for real?
"I object, Your Honor! My client wasn't attempting to sexually assault the alleged victim by "fisting" him. My client honestly thought the supposed victim had stolen his wallet and hid it up his own rectum, so he went looking for it."
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Old 06-07-2016, 03:05 PM
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So is administering an enema a sex act?

Is breastfeeding a sex act?
Yes. You're doing really well.
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Old 06-07-2016, 03:18 PM
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Are you for real?
"I object, Your Honor! My client wasn't attempting to sexually assault the alleged victim by "fisting" him. My client honestly thought the supposed victim had stolen his wallet and hid it up his own rectum, so he went looking for it."
...and he didn't find it the first time so he went looking for it, and he didn't find it the second time so he went looking for it, and he didn't find it the third time so he went looking for it...
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Old 06-07-2016, 03:27 PM
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"Honest, your Honor, my client didn't enjoy it at all"
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Old 06-07-2016, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by lance strongarm View Post
Not all penetration is a sex act, no, but I'd say all nonconsensual penetration is. But maybe not. Maybe that could be non-sexual too, such as if someone were trying to steal something stashed in a vagina, I guess.
Would your statutory definition of sexual assault be something like 'non-consensual penetration of or by a primary sexual organ for sexual purposes'.

Last edited by Folly; 06-07-2016 at 03:35 PM.
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Old 06-07-2016, 03:49 PM
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I would just stick with old fashioned battery.

" an intentional unpermitted act causing harmful or offensive contact with the "person" of another"

It doesn't matter whether or not the perp got his freak on.

Just punish him dammit.
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Old 06-07-2016, 03:50 PM
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Yes, I agree with the OP, among the totality of our perfect and ideal system of jurisprudence the dissonance of this law stands out like a vulture in a flock of swans. There is no greater injustice than prosecuting someone for a sex crime for non-sexually raping a disabled person in the ass with a wire hanger. This is why people have no respect for the law anymore.
That's why "sex crime" and "hate crime" tend to screw up our justice system. Rape is rape, murder is murder, assault is assault. If they had used a coathanger to put out his eyes, is that a lesser crime? actually, yes, which is just nutty.
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Old 06-07-2016, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by GulfTiger View Post
I would just stick with old fashioned battery.

" an intentional unpermitted act causing harmful or offensive contact with the "person" of another"

It doesn't matter whether or not the perp got his freak on.

Just punish him dammit.
How much you punish him is the question.
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Old 06-08-2016, 12:36 PM
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That's why "sex crime" and "hate crime" tend to screw up our justice system. Rape is rape, murder is murder, assault is assault. If they had used a coathanger to put out his eyes, is that a lesser crime? actually, yes, which is just nutty.
On a tangent but we've done this debate before. Hate crime legislation is in place because we as a society have generally agreed that terrorizing a group based on something like their skin color or sexual orientation or religion (etc) is a bad thing, and targeting an individual because of a characteristic like that doesn't just harm the specific victim, it harms others who share that characteristic. So you get punished for the crimes you committed but you may also get additional punishment for the wider societal impact of those crimes.

A few years back I served on a jury in a criminal case which involved hate crime enhancements. Some of the most horrific things were done to the victim because the ringleader realized she was gay. Imagine how other lesbians felt knowing that they might have the same nightmare visited upon them because of their sexual orientation. The defendant got a huge (and entirely appropriate, IMHO) sentence based on the crimes he committed (and those sentences would have been the same no matter who the victim was - male, female, black, white, gay, straight), and several of those sentences were then increased because of WHY he did what he did and the impact that has on people other than the immediate victim.
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Old 06-08-2016, 07:57 PM
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So? I'm asking why. That's just a circular argument.
You didn't ask why in the OP, and my reply wasn't intended as an argument. I was expressing my own surprise at your claim that you were surprised to learn that non-consensual anal penetration could be considered a sex crime and that you just couldn't understand why such a law would exist.

I said I was surprised rather than accusing you of starting this thread in bad faith because I thought there was some possibility that you sincerely wished to have a serious discussion about sexual assault. As you have since admitted that this is not the case:
Quote:
Originally Posted by lance strongarm View Post
I'm just posing a question for fun, and challenging the answers. It's no big deal. Relax.
I see no reason why I, or anyone else, should bother answering your "fun" questions about anal rape. In fact, the next time you start a thread on any sensitive or controversial topic, I hope everyone remembers what you said here.
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Old 06-08-2016, 08:16 PM
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Cut him some slack. Even controversial, emotional conventional wisdom should be challenged often. Lance does that respectfully I think.
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