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  #51  
Old 01-09-2018, 03:33 PM
Czarcasm Czarcasm is offline
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Cite your source, for that is a bold claim.
I already backed up that fact with links in posts #36 and #37.
  #52  
Old 01-09-2018, 03:38 PM
Stranger On A Train Stranger On A Train is offline
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I solve mysteries. I don't chase after money. If money doesn't want to chase after me, then so be it.
Well, this should keep you occupied for a while.

Stranger
  #53  
Old 01-09-2018, 05:33 PM
watchwolf49 watchwolf49 is offline
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Show us your math

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[snip] ... I believe that all successful inventions claimed to be overunity were bally-hooed due to our collective non-ability to account for everything going on inside of them ... [snap]
That's the difference between science and magic ... in science we must account for every last erg ... any non-ability to do this is the burden you must bear ...

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Originally Posted by Vinyasi View Post
[snip] ... Newman's device is deceptively simple with only a few components. It's easy to think, "Oh. I can do that". And in pursuit of that presumption we find our replication does not work as Newman describes and thus come to the baseless conclusion that it will never work - end of story, as we return to our normal lives and bury the dreamer/s ... [snap]
Many people have tried to build this and it's not worked for anybody ... based on that we conclude it will never work ... that's hardly "baseless" ... you build it, or admit you can't ...

I come across this con in casino gambling all the time ... the reason this guarantied money-making card-counting scheme won't work for me is because I'm doing it wrong ... the reason this free-energy device doesn't work is because everybody builds it wrong ...

=====

The burden of proof that this device doesn't violate the laws of thermodynamics is on YOU ... and don't be afraid to talk over my head ... plenty of folks here who will know what you're talking about ...
  #54  
Old 01-09-2018, 10:01 PM
Musicat Musicat is offline
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I solve mysteries. I don't chase after money. If money doesn't want to chase after me, then so be it.
So you don't want money or fame. Why not donate it to charity, anonymously? That way you can avoid the fame and fortune, and make the world a better place. Wouldn't any sane human being want to make the world a better place for no cost?
  #55  
Old 01-10-2018, 01:23 PM
Vinyasi Vinyasi is offline
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Before I get to answering your recent comments, I'm posting two links here which are a correction to an oversight of mine, namely: I overlooked the fact that Dr. Hastings' measurements were that the 145lb coil with 14lb bar magnet version which he analyzes in chapter six of Newman's book rotated at 136 RPMs. In previous postings, I have it spinning much slower producing a 50Hz field surrounding the magnet. So, I made two revisions: one with a tight coupling between the coil at L1 and the rotating magnet at L2, and another with a loose coupling per suggestion of Constant314 at Wikipedia.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...ly_coupled.jpg
https://archive.org/download/TheEner...tlyCoupled.asc

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...ly_coupled.jpg
https://archive.org/download/TheEner...elyCoupled.asc
  #56  
Old 01-10-2018, 01:28 PM
Vinyasi Vinyasi is offline
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Quote from a Vedic text...

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Originally Posted by Musicat View Post
So you don't want money or fame. Why not donate it to charity, anonymously? That way you can avoid the fame and fortune, and make the world a better place. Wouldn't any sane human being want to make the world a better place for no cost?
"Lord, give me wealth so that I may have something with which to make sacrifice." - Brihadaranyaka Upanishad

I've always given my money away. That's what has gotten me into trouble by people who disapprove of my generosity and would prefer I be less gracious like themselves.

Too late to avoid small scale infamy.

I count wealth in terms of knowledge and experience. I'm getting plenty, here, at this forum.
  #57  
Old 01-10-2018, 01:40 PM
Vinyasi Vinyasi is offline
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Newman's Closure from a Simulation rather than from Consensus void of Virtual Testing.

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Originally Posted by watchwolf49 View Post
Show us your math



That's the difference between science and magic ... in science we must account for every last erg ... any non-ability to do this is the burden you must bear ...



Many people have tried to build this and it's not worked for anybody ... based on that we conclude it will never work ... that's hardly "baseless" ... you build it, or admit you can't ...

I come across this con in casino gambling all the time ... the reason this guarantied money-making card-counting scheme won't work for me is because I'm doing it wrong ... the reason this free-energy device doesn't work is because everybody builds it wrong ...

=====

The burden of proof that this device doesn't violate the laws of thermodynamics is on YOU ... and don't be afraid to talk over my head ... plenty of folks here who will know what you're talking about ...
If my simulations fail to exhibit non-overunity, and if they have also failed to show a complete accounting, besides their ability to perform work, then I have failed to reach you. That's my only purpose for posting to this thread. I let the simulation speak for itself, for that is best, on my behalf. All of my opinionated descriptions are mere hindsights of what's going on within these simulations. Your opinions of their behavior would probably be at least as interesting, if not more so, than mine since I already know my perspective but have little clue, or none at all, about yours. That's also why I'm here at this forum.

Citing a Wikipedia article tells me what the consensus is. It doesn't tell me what you think of my attempt to simulate Newman's device. Is it an accurate simulation or is it not accurate?

If it's not accurate, then how can I/we modify it to bring us closer to closure?
  #58  
Old 01-10-2018, 01:49 PM
Musicat Musicat is offline
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If it's not accurate, then how can I/we modify it to bring us closer to closure?
Easey-peasey. Build it, make it work, prepare a scientific paper to show what you claim, have it peer-reviewed, present it to be tested by reputable parties without reservations. Other parties build it and it works just like you said. Just like every other scientific invention that works. You will revolutionize the world and win the Nobel Prize.

Best of luck to you.
  #59  
Old 01-10-2018, 02:23 PM
2nd Law 2nd Law is offline
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The OP got close on the 2nd Law ...
Huh?

Oh, the other 2nd Law. Never mind.

Last edited by 2nd Law; 01-10-2018 at 02:24 PM.
  #60  
Old 01-10-2018, 02:24 PM
Mangetout Mangetout is offline
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I can't make something from nothing. But I can make more from less
It's the same thing. If you make more from less, the surplus is something for nothing.
  #61  
Old 01-10-2018, 02:53 PM
Czarcasm Czarcasm is offline
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Originally Posted by Vinyasi View Post
If my simulations fail to exhibit non-overunity, and if they have also failed to show a complete accounting, besides their ability to perform work, then I have failed to reach you. That's my only purpose for posting to this thread. I let the simulation speak for itself, for that is best, on my behalf. All of my opinionated descriptions are mere hindsights of what's going on within these simulations. Your opinions of their behavior would probably be at least as interesting, if not more so, than mine since I already know my perspective but have little clue, or none at all, about yours. That's also why I'm here at this forum.

Citing a Wikipedia article tells me what the consensus is. It doesn't tell me what you think of my attempt to simulate Newman's device. Is it an accurate simulation or is it not accurate?

If it's not accurate, then how can I/we modify it to bring us closer to closure?
Got nothing to say about my sites that you somehow overlooked the first time? BTW, the nearer you get to what Joe Newman had, the more likely it is you will come up with nothing. Newman was a pseudoscientist/con artist, and his machine never worked because his machine couldn't work.
  #62  
Old 01-10-2018, 02:56 PM
Czarcasm Czarcasm is offline
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If it's not accurate, then how can I/we modify it to bring us closer to closure?
Throw your drawings in the trash and try something else-To follow Joe Newman is to follow fraud and failure.
  #63  
Old 01-10-2018, 03:24 PM
watchwolf49 watchwolf49 is offline
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Huh?

Oh, the other 2nd Law. Never mind.
There you are, I thought that comment would flush you out from cover ... how you doing, still bringing the people chaos? ...

Last edited by watchwolf49; 01-10-2018 at 03:25 PM.
  #64  
Old 01-10-2018, 06:05 PM
2nd Law 2nd Law is offline
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There you are, I thought that comment would flush you out from cover ... how you doing, still bringing the people chaos? ...
It's as the O'Jays said -- give the people what they want.
  #65  
Old 01-11-2018, 02:42 AM
constanze constanze is offline
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I believe that all successful inventions claimed to be overunity were bally-hooed due to our collective non-ability to account for everything going on inside of them. So, we labeled them fringe and the inventor is a fraud. We do this so quickly without ever considering that we have a lot to learn about circuits.
Yes: we know that they can't work due to what we know about the natural laws.

And the way they Claim to work also does not fit natural laws.

Quote:
Think about complicated audio systems. Their designers are highly sophisticated craftsmen who have long since transcended simple flashlight circuits.

The result is a work of art.
With only the few differences:
Audio Systems do work. They can be shown to work.
Overunity devices don't.

We have working theories on how Audio Systems work, that don't violate natural laws.
We don't have working theories on overunity devices that comply with natural laws.

While current Audio Systems are complicated, they were developed from simpler Systems. All Systems worked and followed natural laws.
There is no case of a simple overunity device that either works or has a valid theory.

Quote:
Newman's device is deceptively simple with only a few components. It's easy to think, "Oh. I can do that". And in pursuit of that presumption we find our replication does not work as Newman describes and thus come to the baseless conclusion that it will never work - end of story, as we return to our normal lives and bury the dreamer/s.
Here's an alternative: instead of trying to solve a puzzle nobody else has solved, why not turn to existing devices and improve them? Solar cells and wind energy are a booming, benefical field. We get energy "practically free" = the sun shines anyway whether we use the energy or not; and building small, but more efficient wind wheels to use on Special Locations is a wide-open field.

Both the theory behind solar and wind are established as valid, and the existing models do work; but improving Efficiency or developing niche applications is necessary and important.
  #66  
Old 01-11-2018, 07:16 PM
Vinyasi Vinyasi is offline
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Authority is one of the major fallacies of logic. Consensus is another.

In fact, consensus is listed by the 1969 edition of the World Book Encyclopedia as being one of three types of tyranny. The other two are: oligarchy and monarchy.

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Originally Posted by constanze View Post
Yes: we know that they can't work due to what we know about the natural laws.

And the way they Claim to work also does not fit natural laws.
To make more from less implies, in these examples, that we can get energy from out of bar magnet if we rotate it equivalent to the rotating field of an AC generator in contradistinction to not normally getting anything from out of bar magnets ('cuz we don't bother to rotate them).

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Originally Posted by constanze View Post
With only the few differences:
Audio Systems do work. They can be shown to work.
Overunity devices don't.
Thus, this is not - cannot be - overunity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by constanze View Post
We have working theories on how Audio Systems work, that don't violate natural laws.
We don't have working theories on overunity devices that comply with natural laws.
Instead, we have mislabeled devices as being overunity lacking a more seasoned judgement of them.

Newman's device is a good example.

I don't respond to your Wikipedia link since - true, they use an authoritative source, but - it is not relevant since they were not testing Newman's device. Instead, they were testing their own version of Newman's device without his authorization yet calling it Newman's. They honestly admit to this in a round about fashion on their website...

http://files.ncas.org/nbsreport/introduction.html

quoting myself...
https://web.archive.org/web/20180106...tor#cite_ref-4

"Concerning the Patent Office, the National Bureau of Standards admits on their website that: The National Bureau of Standards provided the resistive load which was connected in parallel with the coil. This is an example of current wanting to take the path of least resistance through a parallel load, bypassing the coil (of greater resistance than their test load) to a significant degree by cleverly self-shorting Newman's primary coil" [for an entire duty cycle rather than the last 20%] "and prevent accumulation of HV. Had they performed their test as Newman advises in his book by wrapping a shorter length of secondary coil around the larger primary coil and placing the test load only inline with this secondary and isolated from the primary, then it's entirely possible that the NBS would have produced more accurate results and replicate Newman's. Then, the history of Newman and his motor would have read a bit differently then what transpired."

Quote:
Originally Posted by constanze View Post
While current Audio Systems are complicated, they were developed from simpler Systems. All Systems worked and followed natural laws.
There is no case of a simple overunity device that either works or has a valid theory.
Bravo. 'Overunity' gets a lot of publicity without being accurate.

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Originally Posted by constanze View Post
Here's an alternative: instead of trying to solve a puzzle nobody else has solved, why not turn to existing devices and improve them? Solar cells and wind energy are a booming, benefical field. We get energy "practically free" = the sun shines anyway whether we use the energy or not; and building small, but more efficient wind wheels to use on Special Locations is a wide-open field.

Both the theory behind solar and wind are established as valid, and the existing models do work; but improving Efficiency or developing niche applications is necessary and important.
  #67  
Old 01-11-2018, 07:21 PM
Vinyasi Vinyasi is offline
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Improved performance of my LTSpice simulation by adding a neon bulb.

Now, this really looks efficient utilizing a rotating magnetic field supplied by a mere 255 micro volts and transferred to the coil through its own inductance of 700 pico henries in order to use the least amount of power (of ~8 watts) to get the minimum amount of current on the battery pack, at V_bat_1, to invert into a negative direction and recharge the batteries as Newman's device managed to do when it worked according to his design parameters....

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F..._neon_bulb.jpg
  #68  
Old 01-11-2018, 07:33 PM
running coach running coach is offline
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Originally Posted by Vinyasi View Post

Newman's device is a good example.

I don't respond to your Wikipedia link since - true, they use an authoritative source, but - it is not relevant since they were not testing Newman's device. Instead, they were testing their own version of Newman's device without his authorization yet calling it Newman's. They honestly admit to this in a round about fashion on their website...



His permission makes it work? Now I've heard everything.

Oh great, I just rolled my eyeballs so hard I sprained 'em. Now I'm going to look funny for at least a week.

Last edited by running coach; 01-11-2018 at 07:34 PM.
  #69  
Old 01-11-2018, 08:04 PM
Vinyasi Vinyasi is offline
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Independent testing must not alter a circuit undergoing testing and not call it their own design.

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His permission makes it work? Now I've heard everything.

Oh great, I just rolled my eyeballs so hard I sprained 'em. Now I'm going to look funny for at least a week.
Don't get lost in the shuffle.

They made their own device, called it Newman's, and the Patent Office believed them.

This is not science since anyone can see that a test load connected in parallel with Newman's coil, rather than isolated from the coil, is not the same device if the test load's path has less resistance than the coil.

In other words, the test load is being tested, not the coil. Current will bypass the coil, by a significant percentage, based on the ratio of resistance between the coil's resistance and the test load's resistance.
  #70  
Old 01-11-2018, 09:50 PM
Vinyasi Vinyasi is offline
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A few ideas of building this simulation...

LTSpice file...
https://archive.org/download/TheEner...thNeonBulb.asc

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinyasi View Post
Now, this really looks efficient utilizing a rotating magnetic field supplied by a mere 255 micro volts and transferred to the coil through its own inductance of 700 pico henries in order to use the least amount of power (of ~8 watts) to get the minimum amount of current on the battery pack, at V_bat_1, to invert into a negative direction and recharge the batteries as Newman's device managed to do when it worked according to his design parameters....

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F..._neon_bulb.jpg
YouTube video describing my building hints...
LTSpice Simulation of Joseph Newman's Motor at a Faster RPM with a Neon Bulb
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSaE3uPOGiE
  #71  
Old 01-11-2018, 09:51 PM
Czarcasm Czarcasm is offline
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In fact, consensus is listed by the 1969 edition of the World Book Encyclopedia as being one of three types of tyranny. The other two are: oligarchy and monarchy.
Oh, no you don't: I cannot let that one pass without asking for a cite.

What exactly would it take for you to say that this Energy machine of Joe Newmans's just doesn't work? Is there such a point, or will you continue with this "It just needs refinement" stuff forever?
  #72  
Old 01-11-2018, 09:52 PM
running coach running coach is offline
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Oh, no you don't: I cannot let that one pass without asking for a cite.

What exactly would it take for you to say that this Energy machine of Joe Newmans's just doesn't work? Is there such a point, or will you continue with this "It just needs refinement" stuff forever?
Perpetual motion!! *fist pump*
  #73  
Old 01-11-2018, 09:54 PM
Vinyasi Vinyasi is offline
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This is called: Current Divider Circuit (as compared to a Voltage Divider Circuit)

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Originally Posted by Vinyasi View Post
Don't get lost in the shuffle.

They made their own device, called it Newman's, and the Patent Office believed them.

This is not science since anyone can see that a test load connected in parallel with Newman's coil, rather than isolated from the coil, is not the same device if the test load's path has less resistance than the coil.

In other words, the test load is being tested, not the coil. Current will bypass the coil, by a significant percentage, based on the ratio of resistance between the coil's resistance and the test load's resistance.
Current Divider Circuits
Chapter 6 - Divider Circuits And Kirchhoff's Laws
https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/tex...ider-circuits/

for comparison...

Voltage Divider Circuits
Chapter 6 - Divider Circuits And Kirchhoff's Laws
https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/tex...ider-circuits/
  #74  
Old 01-11-2018, 09:57 PM
Vinyasi Vinyasi is offline
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At what point does fraud bite the dust?

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Oh, no you don't: I cannot let that one pass without asking for a cite.

What exactly would it take for you to say that this Energy machine of Joe Newmans's just doesn't work? Is there such a point, or will you continue with this "It just needs refinement" stuff forever?
I'd have to say that AC generators don't work so why on Earth should I expect that Newman's energy device works as well?

Or that antennas don't work so why should Newman's?

Or that commutators are a fascinating piece of fraud?
  #75  
Old 01-11-2018, 09:59 PM
Vinyasi Vinyasi is offline
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Perpetual Motion so long as we don't have to call in a Service Repair Technician.

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Originally Posted by running coach View Post
Perpetual motion!! *fist pump*
So, long as you take this device to its service technician once in a while and replace its worn out batteries incapable of sustaining a charge no matter how much juice you recharge them with for comparison to this device's recharging capabilities.
  #76  
Old 01-11-2018, 10:01 PM
Vinyasi Vinyasi is offline
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Not everyone makes for great teaching style.

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Originally Posted by Czarcasm View Post
Oh, no you don't: I cannot let that one pass without asking for a cite.

What exactly would it take for you to say that this Energy machine of Joe Newmans's just doesn't work? Is there such a point, or will you continue with this "It just needs refinement" stuff forever?
Refining my simulations misses the point: my presentation is in need of refinement. Refining my simulations are extra credit.
  #77  
Old 01-11-2018, 10:09 PM
Czarcasm Czarcasm is offline
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I'd have to say that AC generators don't work so why on Earth should I expect that Newman's energy device works as well?

Or that antennas don't work so why should Newman's?

Or that commutators are a fascinating piece of fraud?
Do you really want to go the "...But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown" route?
Who said that antennas don't work?
Who said AC generators don't work?
  #78  
Old 01-11-2018, 10:34 PM
Vinyasi Vinyasi is offline
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Is Bozo a stand-in for Newman or vice versa?

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Do you really want to go the "...But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown" route?
Who said that antennas don't work?
Who said AC generators don't work?
If energy can't be harnessed from out of a magnet by spinning that magnet to create a rotating magnetic field just as an AC generator does likewise, and...

If a voltage oriented coil can't pickup a rotating magnetic field's energy and simultaneously convert it into a gain in voltage over any gain in current by making it difficult for current's movement to keep pace with that coil's voltage gain by making that coil excessively large both in girth of its magnetic wire and the length of that wire, then...

What do we need Bozo for if we can laugh at suckers like me for believing that Newman is not a fraud?

Last edited by Vinyasi; 01-11-2018 at 10:36 PM.
  #79  
Old 01-11-2018, 10:42 PM
Czarcasm Czarcasm is offline
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"The fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown." -Carl Sagan, Broca's Brain (1979), p. 64
  #80  
Old 01-11-2018, 11:13 PM
Vinyasi Vinyasi is offline
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What's next?

If energy can't be harnessed from out of a magnet by spinning that magnet to create a rotating magnetic field just as an AC generator does likewise, and...

If a voltage oriented coil can't pickup a rotating magnetic field's energy and simultaneously convert it into a gain in voltage over any gain in current by making it difficult for current's movement to keep pace with that coil's voltage gain by making that coil excessively large both in girth of its magnetic wire and the length of that wire, then...

What's next?
  #81  
Old 01-12-2018, 07:35 AM
naita naita is offline
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If energy can't be harnessed from out of a magnet by spinning that magnet to create a rotating magnetic field just as an AC generator does likewise, and...
That isn't energy from the magnet, it's energy from the spin.
  #82  
Old 01-12-2018, 08:04 AM
RitterSport RitterSport is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinyasi View Post
If energy can't be harnessed from out of a magnet by spinning that magnet to create a rotating magnetic field just as an AC generator does likewise, and...

If a voltage oriented coil can't pickup a rotating magnetic field's energy and simultaneously convert it into a gain in voltage over any gain in current by making it difficult for current's movement to keep pace with that coil's voltage gain by making that coil excessively large both in girth of its magnetic wire and the length of that wire, then...

What's next?
I'm back for one post! I'm sure everyone missed me.

This is your fundamental misunderstanding. You don't create energy from magnets, you transform it. So, you can take potential energy from the water behind the dam, use it to spin up a turbine, creating kinetic energy (from a turbine at the bottom of a dam, for example) and turn it into electrical energy using a magnet. You can take sound energy and use tiny magnets in a microphone to make electrical energy. It can also be used the other way -- use electrical energy to move the magnets in a speaker to make sound energy (moving air particles). Magnetism is like gravity -- gravity can be used to transform potential energy into kinetic energy -- the sun evaporates the water, which falls into rivers -- then gravity turns that potential energy into kinetic energy.

So, this is the crux of it -- magnets are used to transform energy, not create it. That's your misunderstanding.
  #83  
Old 01-12-2018, 09:47 AM
Vinyasi Vinyasi is offline
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Conversion equals Transformation

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Originally Posted by RitterSport View Post
I'm back for one post! I'm sure everyone missed me.

This is your fundamental misunderstanding. You don't create energy from magnets, you transform it. So, you can take potential energy from the water behind the dam, use it to spin up a turbine, creating kinetic energy (from a turbine at the bottom of a dam, for example) and turn it into electrical energy using a magnet. You can take sound energy and use tiny magnets in a microphone to make electrical energy. It can also be used the other way -- use electrical energy to move the magnets in a speaker to make sound energy (moving air particles). Magnetism is like gravity -- gravity can be used to transform potential energy into kinetic energy -- the sun evaporates the water, which falls into rivers -- then gravity turns that potential energy into kinetic energy.

So, this is the crux of it -- magnets are used to transform energy, not create it. That's your misunderstanding.
Correct!

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Originally Posted by Vinyasi View Post
If energy can't be harnessed from out of a magnet by spinning that magnet to create a rotating magnetic field just as an AC generator does likewise, and...

If a voltage oriented coil can't pickup a rotating magnetic field's energy and simultaneously convert it into a gain in voltage over any gain in current by making it difficult for current's movement to keep pace with that coil's voltage gain by making that coil excessively large both in girth of its magnetic wire and the length of that wire, then...

What's next?
  #84  
Old 01-12-2018, 10:08 AM
Vinyasi Vinyasi is offline
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Magnetism plus its spin runs this device via positive feedback. Newman's hand starts it up.

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That isn't energy from the magnet, it's energy from the spin.
According to Michael Faraday, it's both. Without the magnet, spin would be worthless.

But let's assume, for discussion's sake, that it's merely energy from the magnet's spin that runs this device.

There's also feedback between this magnet and the coil since both are attached to the same axle where a commutator is shared between them.

So, any gain in voltage on the massive coil will favor that quantity over any marginal gain in current since current takes time to travel and accumulate along the massive length of its windings. The voltage gain increases RPM which makes it possible for the increased RPMs of the magnet to impart more energy into its spin ever escalating this positive feedback until the device reaches its maximum idling speed governed by its losses versus its ability for gainful feedback.

If the magnet offers no energy by itself, yet it certainly makes possible the transference of its spin energy to the coil which is acting as a pickup for that spinning energy.

So, it could be said that the energy isn't sourced from the magnet. Yet, that energy is transferred via the magnet's contribution of flux shared with the coil.

Yet, we have to have something to spin. That something is the magnet's field. Yet, the spin does not originate from the magnetic field. It originates from Newman's hand initiating spin on the magnet.

But since this is a positive feedback mechanism involving conversion of energy and various losses, only a limited quantity of magnetic transference is capable of being used to contribute to Newman's initial startup with his hand.

So, we could say that - initially - no magnetism is used to contribute any gain to this device. Only its spin is used.

Yet, we know the magnet's field is making positive feedback possible, without which no gain is possible.

So, its both spin and magnetism that runs this device.
  #85  
Old 01-12-2018, 10:57 AM
Telemark Telemark is offline
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So, its both spin and magnetism that runs this device.
This device mainly runs on hot air and ignorance of science, but whatever.
  #86  
Old 01-12-2018, 10:58 AM
watchwolf49 watchwolf49 is offline
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According to Michael Faraday, it's both. Without the magnet, spin would be worthless... [snip]
<nitpick> You mean James Maxwell, right? ... </nitpick>

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Originally Posted by Vinyasi View Post
[snap] ... But since this is a positive feedback mechanism involving conversion of energy and various losses ... [snup]
Explain how slowing down the rotation causes the rotation to speed up ... that's doesn't make sense ... we need an external energy source to provide the rotation and the changing magnetic field, don't we? ...

Last edited by watchwolf49; 01-12-2018 at 10:59 AM.
  #87  
Old 01-12-2018, 11:09 AM
watchwolf49 watchwolf49 is offline
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ETA: Correction: Why does the rotation cause the rotation to speed up? ... I guess `slowing down` isn't a requirement for positive feedback ...
  #88  
Old 01-12-2018, 12:40 PM
Lemur866 Lemur866 is offline
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The exact same device can be used as both an electric motor and an electric generator. If you put in electrical energy, you can make the magnet spin, generating kinetic energy. If you put in kinetic energy, you can make the magnet spin, generating electrical energy.

All that matters is that you make the magnets move in one way, and it creates the other form of energy. And this is also why an electric motor can be used as an electric brake, you spin the wheels faster to move forward, or you slow the spin of the wheels which generates electricity.

If you've got a machine that spins stuff, congratulations. Now, where does the energy to spin it come from? A battery? Congratulations, you've just created a middle school science project. You put in the battery, and your little car chugs across the desk. When you take out the battery and look at it you notice that the battery contains chemicals that react with each other to create electricity, and when they've reacted completely then the electricity stops and your little car won't move anymore.

So you put in a new battery, and the car works again! Congratulations! Except where did the chemicals in the new battery come from? Well, someone had to isolate those chemicals, which took energy. In fact, a lot more energy than that little battery can generate. If you tried to use a battery to create the pure chemicals for another battery, you'd only create a fraction of those chemicals compared to the amount of chemicals you have to react.

So. You take a Newman engine and stick it on a little car. The little car chugs across the desk, and eventually stops. What made it go? Turns out there was a battery in there. What made it stop? Turns out the chemicals in the battery are all reacted and can't generate any more electricity. So the toy car won't move anymore. Congratulations, you've just created a middle school science project demonstrating some of the laws of thermodynamics.

No matter how many coils and magnets and wires and capacitors and whatever you make your Newman engine out of, or what plans you follow, or what pixie dust you sprinkle on it, when the battery charge runs out the toy car won't move anymore. If the engine won't move a toy car farther than a conventional toy electric motor connected to a battery, then what exactly are we discussing?

I want an engine that will make a toy car move across my desk. Can you make one? Does it work better by some metrics than the toy car I got for my birthday when I was 9? What are those metrics? If the answer is no, then what is this discussion about?
  #89  
Old 01-12-2018, 03:51 PM
Vinyasi Vinyasi is offline
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Current polarity determines battery expenditure. Voltage polarity determines battery recharging.

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Originally Posted by Lemur866 View Post
The exact same device can be used as both an electric motor and an electric generator. If you put in electrical energy, you can make the magnet spin, generating kinetic energy. If you put in kinetic energy, you can make the magnet spin, generating electrical energy.

All that matters is that you make the magnets move in one way, and it creates the other form of energy. And this is also why an electric motor can be used as an electric brake, you spin the wheels faster to move forward, or you slow the spin of the wheels which generates electricity.

If you've got a machine that spins stuff, congratulations. Now, where does the energy to spin it come from? A battery? Congratulations, you've just created a middle school science project. You put in the battery, and your little car chugs across the desk. When you take out the battery and look at it you notice that the battery contains chemicals that react with each other to create electricity, and when they've reacted completely then the electricity stops and your little car won't move anymore.

So you put in a new battery, and the car works again! Congratulations! Except where did the chemicals in the new battery come from? Well, someone had to isolate those chemicals, which took energy. In fact, a lot more energy than that little battery can generate. If you tried to use a battery to create the pure chemicals for another battery, you'd only create a fraction of those chemicals compared to the amount of chemicals you have to react.

So. You take a Newman engine and stick it on a little car. The little car chugs across the desk, and eventually stops. What made it go? Turns out there was a battery in there. What made it stop? Turns out the chemicals in the battery are all reacted and can't generate any more electricity. So the toy car won't move anymore. Congratulations, you've just created a middle school science project demonstrating some of the laws of thermodynamics.

No matter how many coils and magnets and wires and capacitors and whatever you make your Newman engine out of, or what plans you follow, or what pixie dust you sprinkle on it, when the battery charge runs out the toy car won't move anymore. If the engine won't move a toy car farther than a conventional toy electric motor connected to a battery, then what exactly are we discussing?

I want an engine that will make a toy car move across my desk. Can you make one? Does it work better by some metrics than the toy car I got for my birthday when I was 9? What are those metrics? If the answer is no, then what is this discussion about?
My premise to each simulation is to minimally deliver energy from the spinning magnet delivered to the coil such that the batteries get a minimum negative flow of current inside of them. Now, whether or not they actually will charge may also depend upon the voltage delivered to them with a negative polarity and a magnitude slightly greater than what they are designed to deliver.

In other words, if the negative current does not also deliver a negative voltage of slightly more than 300 volts, then in all likelyhood, they won't charge no matter how much negative amps are delivered to them. I didn't tweak the simulation to deliver this pair of criteria. I merely fine tuned each version to deliver a negative current. So, it may not charge the batteries unless I increased the magnitude of the voltage and with a negative polarity delivered to the batteries. But at least with a negative current, the batteries can't become spent to run the motor. They can only age which all batteries do regardless whether they're run inside of a device or not.
  #90  
Old 01-12-2018, 03:54 PM
Vinyasi Vinyasi is offline
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Something can be true, but is it relevant?

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<nitpick> You mean James Maxwell, right? ... </nitpick>



Explain how slowing down the rotation causes the rotation to speed up ... that's doesn't make sense ... we need an external energy source to provide the rotation and the changing magnetic field, don't we? ...
You insist on your premise blended with mine. That's the problem. Either your premise of a progressively slowing spin is true and relevant to this case, or else it's true but not relevant due to positive feedback up to the point of idle cruising rate.
  #91  
Old 01-12-2018, 03:57 PM
Vinyasi Vinyasi is offline
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Voltage runs a torque oriented motor better than current can. Current is best for fast acceleration.

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This device mainly runs on hot air and ignorance of science, but whatever.
Ignorance of a voltage dominated coil results in ignorance of how Newman's device runs without any help from my windbag.
  #92  
Old 01-12-2018, 03:59 PM
Czarcasm Czarcasm is offline
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Originally Posted by Vinyasi View Post
Ignorance of a voltage dominated coil results in ignorance of how Newman's device runs without any help from my windbag.
That sentence might make sense in a universe where his machine would actually run...but this isn't, and thus it doesn't.

Last edited by Czarcasm; 01-12-2018 at 04:00 PM.
  #93  
Old 01-12-2018, 04:03 PM
watchwolf49 watchwolf49 is offline
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You insist on your premise blended with mine. That's the problem. Either your premise of a progressively slowing spin is true and relevant to this case, or else it's true but not relevant due to positive feedback up to the point of idle cruising rate.
Please explain this "positive feedback" ... or are you using perfect conductors and frictionless bearings? ... that's still not positive feedback ...

Last edited by watchwolf49; 01-12-2018 at 04:05 PM. Reason: Impedenceless coils? ...
  #94  
Old 01-12-2018, 04:06 PM
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According to Michael Faraday, it's both. Without the magnet, spin would be worthless.
"Worthless" is not a physical property, spin is. Without the magnetic field the object would have the same available energy.

You communicate so poorly I'm not even sure what you're trying to convey in this thread. Everyone assumes you think over unity is possible, but I'm under the impression you might just be so incapable of speaking clearly and using real physics rather than your interpretation of your own simulations, that you are only trying to discuss exactly how energy is lost.

If I'm wrong though, the answer to the title of the thread is a dead certain "No". If you think it does, you're either completely wrong, or missing a source of energy. And, no, magnets are not energy sources. You can give them potential energy in various ways, but you can give a rock potential energy in very similar ways. (Except for the whole dipole thing of course, but that's similar to a rock that is lighter than air at one end and heavier than air at the other. And preferably has an average density like air at sea level.)
  #95  
Old 01-12-2018, 04:18 PM
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Vinyasi, is there anything that would convince you that Neuman's engine does NOT work? If so, what is that?

Conversely, can you suggest something that would convince most scientists that the concept DOES work (a salable, working, testable model comes to mind)?
  #96  
Old 01-12-2018, 04:42 PM
watchwolf49 watchwolf49 is offline
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You communicate so poorly I'm not even sure what you're trying to convey in this thread. Everyone assumes you think over unity is possible, but I'm under the impression you might just be so incapable of speaking clearly and using real physics rather than your interpretation of your own simulations, that you are only trying to discuss exactly how energy is lost.
+1
  #97  
Old 01-12-2018, 05:27 PM
Lemur866 Lemur866 is offline
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What's the point of constructing a simulated engine that...well, I don't know what the simulated engine is supposed to do. Run forever with no fuel, I guess.

Anyway, I don't care what your simulation shows this engine does. Can you build an engine that scoots a toy car across the desk without needed a new battery every five minutes? The car I got when I was 9 needed a new battery every five minutes. When you get your simulation figured out and build your engine and attach it to a toy car, how often do you figure the toy car will need a new battery? Every five minutes? Every 10 minutes? Never?

Forget the calculations. Can you actually build a toy car that scoots around my desk all day every day and never needs a new battery? If not, what are we talking about? You need to do more simulations and testing before you figure out if you can build it or not? Then surely you admit that talking about it here is useless.

Before we become interested in your engine, surely you have to build one first? The Wright Brothers spent a lot of time designing and perfecting their flyer before they got it off the ground. But they didn't got on message boards and claim they had a flying machine until they actually built one and proved it actually worked. A simulated flying machine doesn't prove anything. Maybe you're thiiiiiiiis close to figuring out your engine? Congratulations on your near milestone. Call us back when you've got an actual toy car that actually moves and actually doesn't need new batteries.

Last edited by Lemur866; 01-12-2018 at 05:28 PM.
  #98  
Old 01-12-2018, 05:45 PM
Vinyasi Vinyasi is offline
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I agree with Cecil Adams backed by an imperfect, idealistically simulated example.

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Originally Posted by Lemur866 View Post
What's the point of constructing a simulated engine that...well, I don't know what the simulated engine is supposed to do. Run forever with no fuel, I guess.
And provide mechanical rotation on its drive shaft.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemur866 View Post
Anyway, I don't care what your simulation shows this engine does.
I care since my motivation behind starting this thread was not to produce anything physical to convince you that it works, but for me to agree with the author - Cecil Adams - who claimed that Newman's device is not overunity. I agreed with him via my simulations.

I think it's important to answer Mr. Adams' claims, but back them up with theoretically simulated data as a start. Building can come later. What's the hurry?

If I can't make any more improvements, then I'd be in a position to satisfy your hunger for tangible results.

But so long as your collective opinion is unsettled by my lack of a tangible device, then I might as well allow someone else to build this. I don't have to do everything. That's the definition of team work.

So, the more you expect me to satisfy you your way and not merely mine, the less likely I will satisfy you.
  #99  
Old 01-12-2018, 05:48 PM
Vinyasi Vinyasi is offline
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Version 13 aimed at recharging the batteries.

BTW, here is version 13 which has a greater absolute magnitude of negative charge appearing on the coil to more likely charge the batteries with a small negative current.

screenshot...
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F..._batteries.jpg

LTSpice file...
https://archive.org/download/TheEner...eBatteries.asc
  #100  
Old 01-12-2018, 05:50 PM
Vinyasi Vinyasi is offline
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What will convince me that Newman's device doesn't work?

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Originally Posted by Musicat View Post
Vinyasi, is there anything that would convince you that Neuman's engine does NOT work? If so, what is that?

Conversely, can you suggest something that would convince most scientists that the concept DOES work (a salable, working, testable model comes to mind)?
Good question. I don't know.

I believe Dr. Hastings' analysis indicating the Newman device works. What more do I need to convince me?
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