Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #51  
Old 10-08-2019, 05:48 AM
DSeid's Avatar
DSeid is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 22,654
Quote:
Originally Posted by septimus View Post
I for one admit to great confusion about how the Senate "works." If the President of the Senate says, with no basis, "I rule that your motion is out of order" what is Moscow Mitch going to do? Call the police?
No constitutional scholar I but ...

If the President of the Senate rules motions out of order with no basis then I'd suspect the Senate body would ignore such rulings and if the VP continued to try exert rulings with no basis I'd suspect request the VP removed from the body by the Sergeant at Arms. It could be a constitutional crisis but it could result in the VP being impeached I'd guess. If instead it went to SCOTUS I'd suspect the ruling would go against the VP making rulings with no basis. Given that most D Senators and Representatives have respect for the institutions of government the actions would have found little support.

The op is based on a belief that the President of the Senate has the ultimate power over the body which they merely traditionally delegate to the members and thereby to its elected majority leader. That is a mistaken belief.
  #52  
Old 10-08-2019, 07:33 AM
WillFarnaby's Avatar
WillFarnaby is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Baltimore
Posts: 5,375
If Biden had done, or attempted to do, what the OP wanted him to do, there would have been a constitutional crisis. The political climate under Obama was more tranquil than it is today. Biden usurping power in the senate at the time would have been totally bizarre and radical.
  #53  
Old 10-08-2019, 02:33 PM
RioRico is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: beyond cell service
Posts: 161
Off-topic: IMHO JoJo Biden and Bernie-The-S are too old. As a Left Coaster, I can vote for ANYONE in our primary without much impacting results. California will go for whoever survives that long, and won't go for Tramp no matter what. That frees me to go Green.

On-topic: Let's suppose a post-Tramp world (Feb 2021) where peace prevails ie Tramp hasn't nuked anyplace nor declared martial law; he went fairly quietly. (What a fantasy!) New POTUS Warren and VP Harris strategize. The new VEEP will run the still-GOP Senate, daring any to stop her, just as Pencil-dick would if in that situation. Tramp sez, "I'm the Prez, I do what I want." The next administration can just follow his precedent. Moscow Mitch objects? Let him call the Senate master-of-arms. I bet the VEEP's Secret Service detail outguns the SMOA. Who will most likely be escorted from the chamber?

The old political order is dead; the new order is built on smoking ruins left by Team Tramp. Fuck the constitution, and law, and tradition, and functioning government. That's where America is now. Beware the Vice-Regent; the Senate is their pull-toy.
  #54  
Old 10-08-2019, 02:39 PM
Saint Cad is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: N of Denver & S of Sanity
Posts: 13,553
Quote:
Originally Posted by septimus View Post
I for one admit to great confusion about how the Senate "works." If the President of the Senate says, with no basis, "I rule that your motion is out of order" what is Moscow Mitch going to do? Call the police?
Move for an Appeal

Quote:
Originally Posted by DSeid View Post
No constitutional scholar I but ...

If the President of the Senate rules motions out of order with no basis then I'd suspect the Senate body would ignore such rulings and if the VP continued to try exert rulings with no basis I'd suspect request the VP removed from the body by the Sergeant at Arms.
Nope, it is handled through parliamentary means.

Last edited by Saint Cad; 10-08-2019 at 02:40 PM.
  #55  
Old 10-08-2019, 02:48 PM
Bone's Avatar
Bone is offline
Extrajudicial
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 10,861

Moderating


Quote:
Originally Posted by RioRico View Post
Off-topic: IMHO JoJo Biden and Bernie-The-S are too old. As a Left Coaster, I can vote for ANYONE in our primary without much impacting results. California will go for whoever survives that long, and won't go for Tramp no matter what. That frees me to go Green.

On-topic: Let's suppose a post-Tramp world (Feb 2021) where peace prevails ie Tramp hasn't nuked anyplace nor declared martial law; he went fairly quietly. (What a fantasy!) New POTUS Warren and VP Harris strategize. The new VEEP will run the still-GOP Senate, daring any to stop her, just as Pencil-dick would if in that situation. Tramp sez, "I'm the Prez, I do what I want." The next administration can just follow his precedent. Moscow Mitch objects? Let him call the Senate master-of-arms. I bet the VEEP's Secret Service detail outguns the SMOA. Who will most likely be escorted from the chamber?

The old political order is dead; the new order is built on smoking ruins left by Team Tramp. Fuck the constitution, and law, and tradition, and functioning government. That's where America is now. Beware the Vice-Regent; the Senate is their pull-toy.
First, post #25 clarifies the topic of this thread, reiterated in post #39. If there is already a mod note regarding staying on topic, I recommend you do so because failure to do so is subject to sanction.

Next, this is my 2nd note to you regarding your hyperbolic and antagonistic posting. Here was the first. This is not the Pit and the above post is not appropriate for this forum. Tone down the hostile rhetoric.

[/moderating]

Last edited by Bone; 10-08-2019 at 02:49 PM.
  #56  
Old 10-08-2019, 02:50 PM
Saint Cad is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: N of Denver & S of Sanity
Posts: 13,553
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
Is there any power that the majority leader holds that isn't a manifestation of being the presiding officer? Alternately, is there any basis consistent with the Constitution on which anyone can refuse to allow the President of the Senate to preside?
The first question presumes something that is incorrect. SML's powers do not derive from the presiding officer because he is NOT the presiding officer. He does not rule on motions, call the Senate to order, etc. His power derives from the choice the Senate has made to give him the power to set the Orders of the Day*. As for the second question, the VP would have to be impeached and removed in which case the President pro tempore would be the new presiding officer until a new VP is approved.



*Although many people think that making the Orders of the Day are a power of the presiding officer, their agenda is a suggestion. The assembly has the power to amend the president's agenda or even pass their own so in effect setting the Orders of the Day is a power of the assembly and not the president. The only time the presiding officer's agenda cannot be changed is when calling a special meeting (if within their power).


Quote:
Originally Posted by CarnalK View Post
All of them, because he's not the presiding officer. The current one is Grassley, iirc. McConnell's power is derived from his status as majority leader. The president of the Senate only enforces parliamentary rules of order. The majority leader sets the agenda.
Almost. Grassley as President pro tem is only the presiding officer if Pence is not there.

Last edited by Saint Cad; 10-08-2019 at 02:52 PM.
  #57  
Old 10-08-2019, 04:32 PM
Chronos's Avatar
Chronos is offline
Charter Member
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: The Land of Cleves
Posts: 85,116
By what standard is the presiding officer not part of the leadership?

Quote:
Quoth WillFarnaby:

If Biden had done, or attempted to do, what the OP wanted him to do, there would have been a constitutional crisis.
Correct. There would still have been the same constitutional crisis that the Republicans created. But we would, perhaps, have navigated that crisis slightly more successfully than we did in the history as it has unfolded.
  #58  
Old 10-08-2019, 05:27 PM
CarnalK's Avatar
CarnalK is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 18,435
So ypu simply aren't going to admit that you're completely wrong? The reason I was kinda not letting go of this at first is because I know for a fact you've been disabused of this notion before but for someone reason you refuse to accept it.

If you spent even 2 minutes looking into this, you would see that it is very common practice to let newby Senators take the role of presiding officer to get a feel for the rules. That's how much it isn't a leadership position.
  #59  
Old 10-08-2019, 06:54 PM
DSeid's Avatar
DSeid is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 22,654
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saint Cad View Post
Move for an Appeal


Nope, it is handled through parliamentary means.
Your link goes to rulings by the chair but I assume it applies and would be the process by which ruling motions out of order with no basis would be ignored. Not sure that link though informs as to whether or not the body of the Senate could decide to physically remove a President of the Senate who persistently acted in a manner that clearly demonstrated bad faith and an attempt to hijack or minimally interfere with the legitimate business of the body.

But clearly the VP as President of the Senate is in no position to exert any significant power and is NOT "delegating"power to the majority leader.

The President of the Senate is not part of Senate leadership by ANY standard of leadership. They do not set an agenda, they do not control an agenda, they do not make the rules, the players on the field can overturn any fair or foul, complete or incomplete, ruling they make at any time and are the ones who have the power to change the rules. The President of the Senate even speaks only at the pleasure of the body.

It what possible standard ARE they part of leadership?
  #60  
Old 10-08-2019, 10:33 PM
Saint Cad is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: N of Denver & S of Sanity
Posts: 13,553
Quote:
Originally Posted by DSeid View Post
Your link goes to rulings by the chair but I assume it applies and would be the process by which ruling motions out of order with no basis would be ignored. Not sure that link though informs as to whether or not the body of the Senate could decide to physically remove a President of the Senate who persistently acted in a manner that clearly demonstrated bad faith and an attempt to hijack or minimally interfere with the legitimate business of the body.
That's what impeachment is for.
  #61  
Old 10-09-2019, 01:07 PM
DrDeth is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: San Jose
Posts: 42,217
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarnalK View Post
So are we all just accepting the OP's declaration that Biden could have siezed control of the Senate away from McConnell? I think he's overestimating the power of the President of the Senate.
Biden couldnt do squat of course. The Veep has very little power in the Senate.
  #62  
Old 10-09-2019, 01:12 PM
DrDeth is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: San Jose
Posts: 42,217
nm

Last edited by DrDeth; 10-09-2019 at 01:15 PM.
  #63  
Old 10-09-2019, 01:14 PM
DrDeth is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: San Jose
Posts: 42,217
nm

Last edited by DrDeth; 10-09-2019 at 01:15 PM.
  #64  
Old 10-09-2019, 02:27 PM
septimus's Avatar
septimus is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: The Land of Smiles
Posts: 19,777
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarnalK View Post
If you spent even 2 minutes looking into this, you would see that it is very common practice to let newby Senators take the role of presiding officer to get a feel for the rules. That's how much it isn't a leadership position.
Here's the juniorest Senator of all shutting up the Senator from Insurancecticut; he makes clear that he is doing so in his capacity as Member rather than acting President (though I wonder if he'd have had the gumption to rise if he weren't sitting on the dais).

The punchline comes at the 0:40 mark but stick around if you want to hear what John McCain, war hero and Sarah Palin's running mate, thinks about it.
  #65  
Old 10-09-2019, 08:01 PM
Saint Cad is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: N of Denver & S of Sanity
Posts: 13,553
Quote:
Originally Posted by septimus View Post
Here's the juniorest Senator of all shutting up the Senator from Insurancecticut; he makes clear that he is doing so in his capacity as Member rather than acting President (though I wonder if he'd have had the gumption to rise if he weren't sitting on the dais).

The punchline comes at the 0:40 mark but stick around if you want to hear what John McCain, war hero and Sarah Palin's running mate, thinks about it.
Not sure what side of this you are falling on, that Biden could or could not shut McConnell down. Franken was objecting as a member to the rubber-stamp unanimous consent usually given for more time. Standard parliamentary practice that other Senators have used including McCain a day or two before the video.
  #66  
Old 10-10-2019, 12:20 AM
septimus's Avatar
septimus is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: The Land of Smiles
Posts: 19,777
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saint Cad View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by septimus View Post
... he makes clear that he is doing so in his capacity as Member rather than acting President ...
Not sure what side of this you are falling on, that Biden could or could not shut McConnell down. Franken was objecting as a member ...
You know, I'm starting to wonder if Franken was acting as a Member! Did you think of that?

As for which side I'm on, I thought I'd stated that unambiguously but let me repeat myself:
I'm very firmly on, and fully committed to, the side of Does Not Know the Answer.

At least one previous thread that sought to disambiguate Senate rules met with confused contradictory answers. My ignorant . impression is that the D's always need 60 votes, but the Republicans often make do with "babble babble reconciliation babble" and get their will with 50 votes. Who decides whether a matter qualifies as "reconciliation"? It ain't the police. AFAIK Scotus has never ruled on such a thing.

Last edited by septimus; 10-10-2019 at 12:23 AM.
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:39 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright 2019 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017