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  #251  
Old 09-17-2019, 04:22 PM
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WTF are you on about? I am quite clearly alleging no conspiracy at all. That is, in fact, the entire point of my last two exchanges with you.



Or (quite obvious to everyone but you) they just don't think it's a big deal. In order for your narrative to work, every reporter from every newspaper and TV station and blog would have to "quietly avoid drawing attention to things like this." Do you honestly think every single one of them is backing Warren in this way? Really? Really truly?

I don't know why I'm arguing with you about this. You've quite clearly got a screw loose when it comes to your analysis of Warren in this election.

Riiiight, no one who didn’t see a debate would find it interesting to read a sentence or two about how the leading candidate on stage got laughed at by the audience and responded by rebuking that audience. Nothing to see here!

Last edited by SlackerInc; 09-17-2019 at 04:22 PM.
  #252  
Old 09-17-2019, 06:18 PM
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... The Working Families Party endorsed Sanders in 2016 but have now endorsed Warren for 2020. Sanders fans are furious but it's a sign that his 2016 M.O. of being an outsider from nowhere yelling and berating Wall Street and the millionaires and billionaires isn't enough now ...
(It's just "billionaires" now.)
  #253  
Old 09-20-2019, 12:30 AM
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Warren's rivals are starting to attack her more and more:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/elizabeth...221004338.html
  #254  
Old 09-20-2019, 12:55 PM
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Warren's rivals are starting to attack her more and more:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/elizabeth...221004338.html
That's so very wrong. Crabs in a bucket.
  #255  
Old 09-20-2019, 01:18 PM
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That's so very wrong. Crabs in a bucket.
That is pretty much nothing and the headline is kinda full of crap. You want the most delicate of tea parties it seems, excepting of course criticism of Beto's gun grab.
  #256  
Old 09-20-2019, 01:23 PM
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Well the heroine is clearly supposed to be Warren ...
No, Lorde is the pure heroine.

Last edited by RTFirefly; 09-20-2019 at 01:23 PM.
  #257  
Old 09-20-2019, 02:08 PM
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That's so very wrong. Crabs in a bucket.
Ah if only we could go back to the good old days of the last set of GOP debates when dick size was the topic du jour
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  #258  
Old 09-20-2019, 02:10 PM
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That's so very wrong. Crabs in a bucket.
That's wrong both strategically and as a metaphor.

Strategically, Warren needs to be tested. If she wins the nomination (as I hope), she'll be going up against one of the most powerfully dishonest political machines humanity has ever designed. We're talking light years more powerful than North Korea, since NK doesn't actually need to convince people that they're right, they just need to convince people to comply. I really want Warren to win, but that's contingent on her being able to handle herself when the knives come out. Attacks on her, fair or otherwise, are essential.

As a metaphor, the "crabs in a bucket" aren't trying to gain anything for themselves, they're just trying to prevent anyone else from succeeding. The Dems attacking her now are doing so either because they want the nomination, or they want their preferred candidate to win it. In a zero sum game, attacks are strategically valid.
  #259  
Old 09-20-2019, 06:22 PM
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That is pretty much nothing and the headline is kinda full of crap. You want the most delicate of tea parties it seems, excepting of course criticism of Beto's gun grab.
Attack the issue, not the person.
  #260  
Old 09-20-2019, 06:24 PM
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...

As a metaphor, the "crabs in a bucket" aren't trying to gain anything for themselves, they're just trying to prevent anyone else from succeeding. The Dems attacking her now are doing so either because they want the nomination, or they want their preferred candidate to win it. In a zero sum game, attacks are strategically valid.
As shown in 2016, enough attacks and the electorate will decide "What the hell both sides are bad".
  #261  
Old 09-20-2019, 07:15 PM
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Attack the issue, not the person.
What exactly was your problem with the "attacks" in the article Velocity linked then?
  #262  
Old 09-20-2019, 08:03 PM
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As shown in 2016, enough attacks and the electorate will decide "What the hell both sides are bad".
Yes; attacking the person rather than the issues can help out those operatives urging people not to vote at all, because 'they're all alike' and 'your vote doesn't matter, because whoever gets in is the same old same old' and 'it's all so sordid; really spiritual/noble/pure/cool people don't vote.'

I'm hoping we give those operatives less help, this time around.
  #263  
Old 09-20-2019, 09:49 PM
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That is the gentlest of criticisms-and about an issue.

It is not enough to even count as a test of any sort, let alone the stress test I want to see her pass with flying colors.
  #264  
Old 09-22-2019, 10:29 PM
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HuffPost about the attacks on Warren:

https://www.yahoo.com/huffpost/eliza...120000787.html
  #265  
Old 09-22-2019, 10:39 PM
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HuffPost about the attacks on Warren:

https://www.yahoo.com/huffpost/eliza...120000787.html
I'm beginning to think her slipperiness on healthcare is a feature, not a bug. There's a comfort in boldly talking about a universal plan, without the pain of nailing your face to the carpet on specifics.
  #266  
Old 09-26-2019, 01:49 PM
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Wall Street Democrats say they may support Trump if Warren is the nominee:

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/26/wall...nominated.html
  #267  
Old 09-26-2019, 01:50 PM
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Wall Street Democrats say they may support Trump if Warren is the nominee:

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/26/wall...nominated.html
Warren will probably use this in her campaign commercials. I don't know if these folks understand how useful this kind of thing is for Warren.
  #268  
Old 09-26-2019, 01:51 PM
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I'm beginning to think her slipperiness on healthcare is a feature, not a bug. There's a comfort in boldly talking about a universal plan, without the pain of nailing your face to the carpet on specifics.
Exactly -- "run on popular things and avoid saying unpopular things" is a pretty solid basic campaign strategy.
  #269  
Old 09-26-2019, 01:52 PM
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Warren will probably use this in her campaign commercials. I don't know if these folks understand how useful this kind of thing is for Warren.
She already is.
  #270  
Old 09-26-2019, 02:35 PM
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Wall Street Democrats say they may support Trump if Warren is the nominee:

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/26/wall...nominated.html
That article is hilarious - it may as well be a Warren commercial.

Unnamed hedge fund executive:
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“I think if she can show that the tax code of 2017 was basically nonsense and only helped corporations, Wall Street would not like the public thinking about that,”
Well.... yeah...
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This person said Warren’s policies could be worse for Wall Street than those of President Barack Obama, who signed the Dodd-Frank bank regulation bill in the wake of the 2008 financial meltdown.
You mean the Obama policies that were in place for the longest bull market in history? That saved many of those very same banks from complete ruin?
  #271  
Old 10-03-2019, 08:29 AM
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2 very interesting articles on Warren from Vox:

https://www.vox.com/recode/2019/10/2...ark-zuckerberg

https://www.vox.com/identities/2019/...an-for-workers
  #272  
Old 10-08-2019, 05:41 PM
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At least for the moment, Warren's ahead of Biden in the RealClearPolitics polling average, 26.6% to 26.4%.
  #273  
Old 10-08-2019, 05:52 PM
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At least for the moment, Warren's ahead of Biden in the RealClearPolitics polling average, 26.6% to 26.4%.
In other words- they are dead even.
  #274  
Old 10-08-2019, 05:56 PM
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Sure feels like 2008. Hillary starting out with the big early lead but eventually Obama pulling ahead to the point of looking unstoppable. A few months from now, Biden may be nothing but an after-thought and Warren will have more or less wrapped up the nomination already.
  #275  
Old 10-08-2019, 06:18 PM
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Sure feels like 2008. Hillary starting out with the big early lead but eventually Obama pulling ahead to the point of looking unstoppable. A few months from now, Biden may be nothing but an after-thought and Warren will have more or less wrapped up the nomination already.
It's happening much sooner this time. IIRC, Hillary was leading Obama until Obama won Iowa.
  #276  
Old 10-08-2019, 06:38 PM
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It's happening much sooner this time. IIRC, Hillary was leading Obama until Obama won Iowa.
Hillary, for all her faults, was a much stronger candidate than Biden is.
  #277  
Old 10-09-2019, 03:03 AM
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Hillary, for all her faults, was a much stronger candidate than Biden is.

But Obama was also much, much stronger than Warren is.
  #278  
Old 10-09-2019, 08:45 AM
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Hillary, for all her faults, was a much stronger candidate than Biden is.
I disagree. I think Biden would have beat Trump in 2016. 2020 Biden does seem to be weaker than 2016 Biden would have likely been, although I'm not sure by how much.
  #279  
Old 10-09-2019, 09:19 AM
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Breaking up big companies and strong arm labor politics. Yes Trump has returned us to 19th century politics. These are embarrassingly primitive proposals that could only seem sophisticated next to building a big beautiful wall.

The fact that such country-bumpkin-progressive policies are being supported by coastal “elites” is a sign of intellectual decline.

Last edited by WillFarnaby; 10-09-2019 at 09:22 AM.
  #280  
Old 10-09-2019, 09:26 AM
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A few months from now, Biden may be nothing but an after-thought and Warren will have more or less wrapped up the nomination already.
Super Tuesday, this time including California so will probably be decisive, is 5 months away. That does fit your timeline.
  #281  
Old 10-09-2019, 10:29 AM
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Breaking up big companies and strong arm labor politics. Yes Trump has returned us to 19th century politics. These are embarrassingly primitive proposals that could only seem sophisticated next to building a big beautiful wall.

The fact that such country-bumpkin-progressive policies are being supported by coastal “elites” is a sign of intellectual decline.
Wait--am I a country bumpkin, a coastal "elite", or a declining intellectual? I'm confused.
  #282  
Old 10-09-2019, 10:59 AM
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Wait--am I a country bumpkin, a coastal "elite", or a declining intellectual? I'm confused.
I thought I was a statist, or a warmonger, or something. Maybe WillF could post some sort of taxonomy for the fantastical liberals that run amuck in his imagination?
  #283  
Old 10-09-2019, 11:52 AM
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Point being, these century-old policy proposals were once sold to the rural Christian by the Bryanite wing of the party. Warren is the candidate of the Democratic self-styled intellectual. Bryanism has returned and its kind of still embarrassing.

Last edited by WillFarnaby; 10-09-2019 at 11:57 AM.
  #284  
Old 10-09-2019, 11:57 AM
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Oddly, I thought Teddy Roosevelt was the big Trust Buster, and his cousin Franklin did the most for labor. But maybe I've just read different history books.

Being an intellectual isn't "self-styled", btw - it's demonstrable fact.
  #285  
Old 10-09-2019, 01:06 PM
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Oddly, I thought Teddy Roosevelt was the big Trust Buster, and his cousin Franklin did the most for labor.
Is your argument that the Bryanite wing of the Dem party did not, like Warren, favor breaking up big companies and engage in strong-arm union politicking? Because that’s what I said.

Last edited by WillFarnaby; 10-09-2019 at 01:07 PM.
  #286  
Old 10-09-2019, 01:27 PM
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I find it an interesting and intelligent political strategy that Warren announced today that she won’t do big money fundraisers if she’s the nominee in the general election. Of course for Warren or any Democratic nominee is that the Democrats have Bill and Hillary Clinton, Barack and Michelle Obama and Joe Biden (if he’s not the nominee) that can handle all the big money fundraising while the nominee can seem to be above the fray. It’s definitely an advantage for the Democrats with two ex presidents that were elected while young.

Bill Clinton may be toxic among some of the younger progressives but he can still draw a crowd among the 45 and over types who remembers the 1990s fondly. And, of course, they’re likely to have more money for a big dollar fundraiser than a recent college grad.
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Last edited by dalej42; 10-09-2019 at 01:27 PM.
  #287  
Old 10-09-2019, 01:49 PM
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Is your argument that the Bryanite wing of the Dem party did not, like Warren, favor breaking up big companies and engage in strong-arm union politicking? Because that’s what I said.
Unfortunately, you forgot to demonstrate any relevance to today's world, or even suggest it.
  #288  
Old 10-09-2019, 03:43 PM
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I disagree. I think Biden would have beat Trump in 2016. 2020 Biden does seem to be weaker than 2016 Biden would have likely been, although I'm not sure by how much.
You may be right about 2016 (we'll never know for sure), but in that case, Biden's gone a loooooooooong way down from 2016.

The past couple of weeks have been an opportunity for Biden to be everywhere, firing broadsides at Trump and his crew. Instead, he pops up briefly, fires a pretty good shot, then all but disappears for days.

ETA: At any rate, I'm not comparing Biden 2016 with Hillary 2016, but rather Biden as he is now. Gramps is just not up to this anymore.

Last edited by RTFirefly; 10-09-2019 at 03:44 PM.
  #289  
Old 10-09-2019, 03:50 PM
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Breaking up big companies and strong arm labor politics. Yes Trump has returned us to 19th century politics.
Well, we are in a new Gilded Age, so the shoe fits.

Who's against giving workers the means to fight their own battles? Seems like a winner to me.

And who likes monopolies, other than the monopolists? Ditto.
  #290  
Old 10-09-2019, 04:02 PM
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Unfortunately, you forgot to demonstrate any relevance to today's world, or even suggest it.
The poster linked to an article about breaking up big companies and another about old-school labor politicking by Warren. Is Warren still relevant or have we moved on to the next clown in the car?
  #291  
Old 10-09-2019, 04:04 PM
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Well, we are in a new Gilded Age, so the shoe fits.

Who's against giving workers the means to fight their own battles? Seems like a winner to me.

And who likes monopolies, other than the monopolists? Ditto.
That some are interested in Warren’s primitive policies is kind of the source of my dismay. Thanks for another data point.

Last edited by WillFarnaby; 10-09-2019 at 04:05 PM.
  #292  
Old 10-09-2019, 04:13 PM
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Have the primitive problems gone away? They have not. So …
  #293  
Old 10-09-2019, 04:41 PM
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That some are interested in Warren’s primitive policies is kind of the source of my dismay. Thanks for another data point.
Happy to give you one.

Speaking of 'primitive' things, do you use roads and bridges? Those of us who do must dismay you tremendously.
  #294  
Old 10-09-2019, 04:41 PM
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Have the primitive problems gone away? They have not. So …
They were never problems. Bryan can be excused because he did not witness these past decades of plummeting poverty levels and increasing financial freedom. He had also not witnessed the rise and fall of so many giant boogeyman corporations like IBM and Microsoft which were supposedly going to take over the world but ended up losing market share to competition. Warren lives in a poorly written public school textbook.
  #295  
Old 10-09-2019, 04:47 PM
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If Warren was serious about going after the tech companies she could simply threaten to pull their military-industrial contracts. She has no appetite for cutting off the federal spigot to these coddled behemoths.

Last edited by WillFarnaby; 10-09-2019 at 04:47 PM.
  #296  
Old 10-10-2019, 04:22 PM
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I was hoping that E.W. would run last time and I was quite disappointed when she didn't. I've hitched my wagon to her campaign train all the way.
  #297  
Old 10-11-2019, 05:06 AM
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Happy to give you one.

Speaking of 'primitive' things, do you use roads and bridges? Those of us who do must dismay you tremendously.
What does that have to do with what I’ve discussed or Warren in general?
  #298  
Old 10-11-2019, 07:35 AM
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But Obama was also much, much stronger than Warren is.
While Obama is a more inspirational speaker, Warren's resume is better than Obama's was.

I think Trump shows that speaking in a way that motivates support is more important than skills and experience, so you're probably correct, but I think "much, much stronger" is an overstatement.
  #299  
Old 10-11-2019, 09:32 AM
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Well, we are in a new Gilded Age, so the shoe fits.

Who's against giving workers the means to fight their own battles? Seems like a winner to me.
Historically, in NC at least, the Fusion Party was destroyed by a violent coup led by white supremacists, who massacred black activists in Wilmington and ushered in Jim Crow. I think WF's warning is apropos, but maybe not for the reason he means: it's apropos because progressive forces are on the cusp of another move forward, and we need to take the lessons of the late 19th century to heart, and be on guard against violent suppression.
  #300  
Old 10-11-2019, 01:19 PM
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Warren had a viral moment at the LGBTQ-focused CNN Town Hall that is getting a lot of traction in my very heavily LGBTQ-friendly social media sphere.
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