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  #51  
Old 11-16-2017, 11:33 AM
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Drain the testosterone swamp!
  #52  
Old 11-16-2017, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Fotheringay-Phipps View Post
I don't see that. He probably just thought it was funny.

Not to say she's wrong to be offended. But I don't see any reason to assume that was his intention. More like "look at me, Bad Boy that I am ..."
You didn't read your own link, then?
Quote:
Other than our dialogue on stage, I never had a voluntary conversation with Al Franken again. I avoided him as much as possible and made sure I was never alone with him again for the rest of the tour.

Franken repaid me with petty insults, including drawing devil horns on at least one of the headshots I was autographing for the troops.
And the pic followed that.

Sure, he was being a funny bad boy, but he was doing so in an abusive, punching-down sort of way, aimed at this one woman. Assuming her overall story is true, there's every reason to believe this photo was part of that.
  #53  
Old 11-16-2017, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Snowboarder Bo View Post
Are we to be similarly outraged by millions of photos taken by college students, like these?

ETA: Is this an "always wrong" thing? It's never funny? It's always unacceptable?
I feel pretty comfortable saying that simulating a sexual assault on a non-responsive stranger is always unacceptable. Taking a picture of it seems to make it marginally worse. I didn't look at your example pictures, so I don't know if this is a common thing among college students. But there are a number of common practices by college students that are always unacceptable, so I'm not sure that sways me. Isn't this a pretty clear example of the rape culture thing we keep talking about?

Last edited by Falchion; 11-16-2017 at 11:42 AM.
  #54  
Old 11-16-2017, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Snowboarder Bo View Post
Are we to be similarly outraged by millions of photos taken by college students, like these?

ETA: Is this an "always wrong" thing? It's never funny? It's always unacceptable?
There are probably cases of people who know each other well enough to know that, between them, this is a funny thing to do.

But let's get to the point where doing this to any arbitrary pretty girl within reach isn't a common occurrence, and then we can start debating which instances are (possibly) acceptable.

Or shall I come to your house and fondle your ballsack?

Last edited by Sage Rat; 11-16-2017 at 11:43 AM.
  #55  
Old 11-16-2017, 11:43 AM
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You didn't read your own link, then?
"You didn't read your own link" is sometimes appropriate if your claim is explicit in the link. In this case, it's just your own speculative interpretation, and your "You didn't read your own link" is just an attempt to pretend you have something more than that.
  #56  
Old 11-16-2017, 11:44 AM
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The picture is undoubtedly tasteless. I assume the allegations about the forced kiss are a politically motivated slander designed to draw attention away from Roy Moore. I'm not being hypocritical; if you can show me that Moore's accusers have a history of appearing on the Rachel Maddow show supporting liberal feminist causes, I won't believe them anymore either. Generally men don't do this sort of thing only once; if more women, particularly ones without obvious ties to Franken's political enemies, come forward with similar allegations, I will be much more inclined to take them seriously.

Based only on the photo, I think his Presidential aspirations are toast, and I would have a hard time reelecting him if I were a Minnesotan. Calling for his immediate resignation seems like a bit of an overreaction to me.
  #57  
Old 11-16-2017, 11:46 AM
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I don't like Franken or his politics but it's not as if he raped somebody or seriously sexually assaulted them. The kiss was wrong, the gag not funny, but if no other worse accusations come to light this should be dismissed and should have no impact at all on his political career. We need a little perspective in these things.
  #58  
Old 11-16-2017, 11:48 AM
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Are we to be similarly outraged by millions of photos taken by college students, like these?

ETA: Is this an "always wrong" thing? It's never funny? It's always unacceptable?
Consent is, as always, the key word.

Some of those pix clearly were taken with the gleeful cooperation of the persons in the pic. Many of them weren't.

They're college students, and Lord knows the capacity of college students to do dumb shit is great. You're away from your parents for the first time, you don't have to worry yet about paying the rent, and you've got more free time than you'll have any time in the next 40 years.

Should those pix follow their takers around for the rest of their lives? No. Should their current friends think twice about being their friends? Yes. If they currently hold high office, should they get kicked out? Yes. If they hold high office 30 years from now? No.

But Franken wasn't a dumb college student when he did those things. He did them as an adult. These things happened just two years before he ran for Senate.

(Yes, I know: you're legally an adult at 18, which all but a few college students are. And if you commit a crime as a college student, you do the time. But if you commit morally reprehensible but non-criminal acts as a college student, I'm personally going to adjust for the reality that college is really a kind of limbo between childhood and adulthood, and consider whether you've grown up since then. Most of us eventually do.)
  #59  
Old 11-16-2017, 11:48 AM
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Dammit, Franken, you were my horse to ride in the 2020 presidential campaign.

For the record, I don't think he is actually groping her - but joking about groping her isn't acceptable either. And the story about the kiss is disturbing.

I'm not sure he should resign - I want to know if there was a pattern of harassing women (which, sadly, is probably likely) or just this one incident. But he's never gonna be president now.
  #60  
Old 11-16-2017, 11:48 AM
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... I assume the allegations about the forced kiss are a politically motivated slander designed to draw attention away from Roy Moore. I'm not being hypocritical ...
LOL!

Oh, wait ... you're serious?


Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 11-16-2017 at 11:49 AM.
  #61  
Old 11-16-2017, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Fotheringay-Phipps View Post
"You didn't read your own link" is sometimes appropriate if your claim is explicit in the link. In this case, it's just your own speculative interpretation, and your "You didn't read your own link" is just an attempt to pretend you have something more than that.
It's also the 'speculative interpretation' of the woman it was done to.

If you don't believe her, why did you start this thread?
  #62  
Old 11-16-2017, 11:50 AM
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Dammit, Franken, you were my horse to ride in the 2020 presidential campaign. ... But he's never gonna be president now.
At least two of our last four Presidents have various allegations of sexual harassment against them. I don't see how this is really an impediment.
  #63  
Old 11-16-2017, 11:50 AM
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It is an interesting exercise for me to examine both my own reactions, and those of the Dope, when the shoe is on the other foot.

I am mostly reacting to this as I did to many other such allegations - if true, this is serious. If.

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  #64  
Old 11-16-2017, 11:53 AM
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This sounds vaguely like some ancient religious law where multiple women are required to accuse a man before she is to be believed or taken seriously.
It's something that applies in any case of one person's word against another. You have to evaluate the credibility of the claim. The difference between that and what you say is that we should not be tipping of the scale one way or the other, there is no reason to assume either party is more credible until we know more.
  #65  
Old 11-16-2017, 11:54 AM
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At least two of our last four Presidents have various allegations of sexual harassment against them. I don't see how this is really an impediment.
Hopefully the Democratic base will be less willing to overlook this type of conduct.
  #66  
Old 11-16-2017, 11:55 AM
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It's also the 'speculative interpretation' of the woman it was done to.
That's just not correct. She doesn't say anywhere that she thought his intention in that photo was to ridicule and humiliate her, which is your claim. (She says he groped her, which is itself unclear.)

Quote:
If you don't believe her, why did you start this thread?
We're quibbling over exactly how offensive it was here, but while there's some ambiguity as to exactly what happened, certainly something untoward happened. Even Franken agrees to that.

Worth a thread, I think.
  #67  
Old 11-16-2017, 11:57 AM
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It's something that applies in any case of one person's word against another. You have to evaluate the credibility of the claim. The difference between that and what you say is that we should not be tipping of the scale one way or the other, there is no reason to assume either party is more credible until we know more.
So you think the #BelieveWomen crowd is wrong?
  #68  
Old 11-16-2017, 11:58 AM
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Occurs to me that from here on out there will be MANY men, who otherwise would, choose not to run for office due to harassment/assault skeletons in their closet.

Many of them will be older and established, which it seems to me will result in more younger people running for office on average than has previously been the case.

Or could result in less experienced and accomplished (and less rapey) older men running.
While there are clearly far more men than I would have imagined who have taken advantage of powerful positions to sexually assault and humiliate women (and occasionally men), I doubt even now that such conduct has been anywhere near universal among experienced, accomplished men, regardless of field.

I don't think we have to worry about having an adequate supply of sufficiently capable people to fill our high political offices, even if every sexual abuser is excluded. (It's not like the current GOP majority in either house of Congress is exactly a bunch of winners in that regard.) We'll have more women stepping up, and a better quality of male candidates than we've had, is my guess.
  #69  
Old 11-16-2017, 11:58 AM
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Or shall I come to your house and fondle your ballsack?
Sarcasm for sure, but this is unnecessarily personal. Dial it back.

[/moderating]
  #70  
Old 11-16-2017, 11:58 AM
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Hopefully the Democratic base will be less willing to overlook this type of conduct.
Are you kidding? They were the ones that overlooked it the first time.
  #71  
Old 11-16-2017, 12:00 PM
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Are you kidding? They were the ones that overlooked it the first time.
I said "hopefully."
  #72  
Old 11-16-2017, 12:01 PM
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I assume the allegations about the forced kiss are a politically motivated slander designed to draw attention away from Roy Moore.
Or maybe, with the current atmosphere, she thinks she'll finally be taken seriously despite her political affiliations. If so, I hope she's not wrong.
  #73  
Old 11-16-2017, 12:01 PM
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I said "hopefully."
Ah, well, then I hope (probably in vain) for the same.
  #74  
Old 11-16-2017, 12:04 PM
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She is about to hold an impromptu press conference.

Last edited by madsircool; 11-16-2017 at 12:05 PM.
  #75  
Old 11-16-2017, 12:05 PM
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That's just not correct. She doesn't say anywhere that she thought his intention in that photo was to ridicule and humiliate her, which is your claim.
Not in so many words. She just connects the dots from her rejection of Franken to his recurring petty insults aimed at her during the rest of the trip to the photo.

What do you think her words, "But he didn’t stop there" meant? That was the phrase connecting the insults with the photo.

Sheesh.
  #76  
Old 11-16-2017, 12:06 PM
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Seems like Congress as a whole has an issue with sexual harassment. Note, this is on both sides of the political isle. Here is CNN's article on the OP (sorry if it's been linked to already):

Quote:
(CNN)A woman accused Minnesota Democratic Sen. Al Franken on Thursday of groping her and kissing her without her consent in 2006 while she was on a USO Tour overseas.
Leeann Tweeden is now a morning news anchor on TalkRadio 790 KABC in Los Angeles and posted her story in a lengthy post on the station's website.
The alleged incidents happened before Franken was elected to the Senate in 2008 and was seated in 2009 following a recount.

Tweeden described the harassment as being part of a script for a USO skit where Franken wrote where he's supposed to kiss her. She writes that Franken repeatedly insisted they rehearse the kissing scene despite her protests. When she relented, Franken, "put his hand on the back of my head, mashed his lips against mine and aggressively stuck his tongue in my mouth."
"Senator Franken, you wrote the script," Tweeden wrote. "But there's nothing funny about sexual assault."
She also included a photo in which Franken appears to grabbing Tweeden's breast while she's asleep.
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  #77  
Old 11-16-2017, 12:07 PM
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At least two of our last four Presidents have various allegations of sexual harassment against them. I don't see how this is really an impediment.
You may have forgotten Bush Sr as well. That makes it 3 of the last 5. As far as I know Obama and Bush Jr have not been mentioned in association with these types of allegations. I hope it stays that way for both of them (meaning I hope they are both not sexual harassers).
  #78  
Old 11-16-2017, 12:08 PM
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Are you kidding? They were the ones that overlooked it the first time.
  #79  
Old 11-16-2017, 12:09 PM
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This is very dangerous for the Dems. I've always thought Al Franken was a jerk but this is nowhere near what Roy Moore did. If the Dems are not careful they could come across as excusing sexual harassment of one of their own.
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  #80  
Old 11-16-2017, 12:09 PM
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I don't like Franken or his politics but it's not as if he raped somebody or seriously sexually assaulted them. The kiss was wrong, the gag not funny, but if no other worse accusations come to light this should be dismissed and should have no impact at all on his political career. We need a little perspective in these things.
I'm feeling like more accusations will come to light. This seems like a pretty crass thing to do for a guy in his 60s. One has to assume that it's a staple of his general behavior around good looking women in general.
  #81  
Old 11-16-2017, 12:12 PM
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Sarcasm for sure, but this is unnecessarily personal. Dial it back.

[/moderating]
I didn't mean it sarcastically nor personally. I was giving an example of what - presumably - this would be like for a woman to wake up and find out has been done. It was a simile for any male reader, and not directed at the poster I was responding to in any particular way.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 11-16-2017 at 12:14 PM.
  #82  
Old 11-16-2017, 12:13 PM
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Not in so many words.
Or in any words. You're speculating, and on shaky ground at that.
Quote:
She just connects the dots from her rejection of Franken to his recurring petty insults aimed at her during the rest of the trip to the photo.

What do you think her words, "But he didn’t stop there" meant? That was the phrase connecting the insults with the photo.
No, she was connecting the tongue-kiss to the groping.

Quote:
Sheesh.
Well now that you put it that way, I'm convinced. Should have said that originally.
  #83  
Old 11-16-2017, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by aldiboronti View Post
I don't like Franken or his politics but it's not as if he raped somebody or seriously sexually assaulted them. The kiss was wrong, the gag not funny, but if no other worse accusations come to light this should be dismissed and should have no impact at all on his political career. We need a little perspective in these things.
As I said, I am doubtful of the claim about the kiss due to the alleged victim's obvious political motivation to lie. But if it is true, it's not just "wrong", it's criminal sexual assault and should end his political career immediately.
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Old 11-16-2017, 12:14 PM
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LOL!

Oh, wait ... you're serious?

You snipped my quote for, um...clarity and brevity, right?
  #85  
Old 11-16-2017, 12:15 PM
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In a longer statement Thursday afternoon, he again apologized while maintaining that he remembered the rehearsal differently.

“While I don’t remember the rehearsal for the skit as Leeann does, I understand why we need to listen to and believe women’s experiences,” the Democratic senator said. “Coming from the world of comedy, I’ve told and written a lot of jokes that I once thought were funny but later came to realize were just plain offensive.”

Of the photo, Franken said: “I look at it now and I feel disgusted with myself. It isn’t funny. It’s completely inappropriate. It’s obvious how Leeann would feel violated by that picture.”
Quote:
The allegations could trigger an ethics review in the Senate. Majority Leader Mitch McConnell called on Democratic Minority Leader Chuck Schumer to join him in pressing for a review.

“Regardless of party, harassment and assault are completely unacceptable— in the workplace or anywhere else,” the Kentucky Republican said.

Franken said he welcomed the investigation.
Cite.
  #86  
Old 11-16-2017, 12:15 PM
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You snipped my quote for, um...clarity and brevity, right?
To make it clear which part I was reacting to.
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Old 11-16-2017, 12:16 PM
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I'm feeling like more accusations will come to light. This seems like a pretty crass thing to do for a guy in his 60s. One has to assume that it's a staple of his general behavior around good looking women in general.
My guess is that in the entertainment business there's more opportunities for this, what with risqué skits and the like blurring the lines. OTOH, Franken was an entertainer for quite a while, so I wouldn't be surprised if those lines got blurred on other occasions as well.

If it happened during his political career or with non-entertainers, that would be another level.
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Old 11-16-2017, 12:19 PM
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Assuming that he does resign (and yes I think it’s still a little early to be considering it seriously) I think the best bet is for the Democrats to go with an elder statesmen as a temporary replacement. Maybe Walter Mondale can come out of retirement?
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Old 11-16-2017, 12:21 PM
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My guess is that in the entertainment business there's more opportunities for this, what with risqué skits and the like blurring the lines. OTOH, Franken was an entertainer for quite a while, so I wouldn't be surprised if those lines got blurred on other occasions as well.

If it happened during his political career or with non-entertainers, that would be another level.
He felt comfortable enough to do this in front of the tour photographer. This pic was released on the official CD of the tour, where she first saw this, according to the woman.
  #90  
Old 11-16-2017, 12:22 PM
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Assuming that he does resign (and yes I think it’s still a little early to be considering it seriously) I think the best bet is for the Democrats to go with an elder statesmen as a temporary replacement. Maybe Walter Mondale can come out of retirement?
Perhaps Joe Biden is available?
  #91  
Old 11-16-2017, 12:24 PM
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He's expressed his regret, admitted he's a cad, apologized to Ms. Tweeden, and offered to take part in any ethics investigations. Most importantly, he didn't try to justify his behaviour by invoking bronze-age fairy tale characters like the pedophilic Republicans have.
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Old 11-16-2017, 12:24 PM
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This is very dangerous for the Dems. I've always thought Al Franken was a jerk but this is nowhere near what Roy Moore did. If the Dems are not careful they could come across as excusing sexual harassment of one of their own.
This is why I think he's toast. Schumer cancelled a planned press conference after the news came out. He's probably huddled with the other party leaders and maybe Franken, planning Franken's demise. From their perspective, they'll get a Democrat as a replacement and probably another in the special election, so forcing Franken out won't cost them horribly. If they make an example of him, they get the high ground while the Republicans still have to deal with Moore. My predictions have been shit for the past couple years, but I'm thinking Franken is going to be spending more time with his family soon.
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Old 11-16-2017, 12:26 PM
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He felt comfortable enough to do this in front of the tour photographer. This pic was released on the official CD of the tour, where she first saw this, according to the woman.
Of course. Because at the time he was in his Bad Boy Comic mode.

Franken also told the Harvard Crimson (in 1976) "I just don't like homosexuals. If you ask me, they're all homosexuals in the Pudding. Hey, I was glad when that Pudding homosexual got killed in Philadelphia". That doesn't mean it was true. He was in shock jock mode.

Again, that's not to say that wasn't an offensive photo and act, and if I was that woman I would be offended. But a lot of what these shock jocks do is offensive.
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Old 11-16-2017, 12:27 PM
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This is why I think he's toast. Schumer cancelled a planned press conference after the news came out. He's probably huddled with the other party leaders and maybe Franken, planning Franken's demise. From their perspective, they'll get a Democrat as a replacement and probably another in the special election, so forcing Franken out won't cost them horribly. If they make an example of him, they get the high ground while the Republicans still have to deal with Moore. My predictions have been shit for the past couple years, but I'm thinking Franken is going to be spending more time with his family soon.
The political danger there is that once they've established the precedent that the correct response to accusations against a sitting senator is to force them to resign, you'll probably be able to count the milliseconds on one hand until a bunch of red-state Dem senators have accusations made against them.
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Old 11-16-2017, 12:28 PM
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At least two of our last four Presidents have various allegations of sexual harassment against them. I don't see how this is really an impediment.
Three out of five. Elder Bush is quite handsy apparently.
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Old 11-16-2017, 12:30 PM
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He's expressed his regret, admitted he's a cad, apologized to Ms. Tweeden, and offered to take part in any ethics investigations. Most importantly, he didn't try to justify his behaviour by invoking bronze-age fairy tale characters like the pedophilic Republicans have.
Any evidence that any Repubs are pedophiles?

He also said he didn't remember. It doesn't sound like he has done the right thing to me.

Last edited by madsircool; 11-16-2017 at 12:32 PM.
  #97  
Old 11-16-2017, 12:30 PM
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The political danger there is that once they've established the precedent that the correct response to accusations against a sitting senator is to force them to resign, you'll probably be able to count the milliseconds on one hand until a bunch of red-state Dem senators have accusations made against them.
In fact, I'd be surprised if there weren't people already digging through old photos and contacting acquaintances of Manchin, Donnelly, Tester, Brown, etc.
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Old 11-16-2017, 12:35 PM
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Looks like a dumb joke to me. Mostly because its so clearly posed. The two-handed open thrust is a pointedly stupid way to "cop a feel". Its a cliche. His backward over the shoulder leer underscores this, "look at this stupid joke I am making!". And through a Kevlar vest? Only way you might know where they are is by an assumed and general topography, they're usually right around here, somewhere.

A good man can, and will, be wrong. And adjust accordingly. Judge Teenyboink is the same man now as he was forty years past, mean-spirited, cruel and ignorant. Do I judge him for his politics? Hard to tell, chicken and egg, his politics are mean-spirited, cruel and ignorant as well.

Does this cause confusion to my enemies, the Forces of Darkness, do I look upon that with a measure of glee? Hugh Betcha!
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Law above fear, justice above law, mercy above justice, love above all.
  #99  
Old 11-16-2017, 12:38 PM
RTFirefly is online now
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Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Maryland
Posts: 39,678
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fotheringay-Phipps View Post
No, she was connecting the tongue-kiss to the groping.
Let's try one more test of reading comprehension:
Quote:
Franken repaid me with petty insults, including drawing devil horns on at least one of the headshots I was autographing for the troops.

But he didn’t stop there.

[Then starts talking about the pic]
So "but he didn't stop there" connects what to what?

Last edited by RTFirefly; 11-16-2017 at 12:38 PM.
  #100  
Old 11-16-2017, 12:38 PM
Thing Fish is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
To make it clear which part I was reacting to.
So do you think I'm hypocritical?

Do you think it's disingenuous for me to claim to see a meaningful distinction between multiple substantiated allegations from women with no obvious motivation to lie and one unsubstantiated allegation from a woman with such an obvious motive? That doesn't seem like an intellectually defensible position to you?
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