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  #101  
Old 11-16-2017, 12:39 PM
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The photo is pretty much what I would expect from a comedian with an SNL pedigree of that period. Still a dick move IMO.

The forced kissing and harassment is inexcusable. I'm sure he remembers it differently. If no one else comes forward this may not hurt him too much.

I'm getting the impression most of my sex have been pigs of this sort at least once. Very, very disappointing.
  #102  
Old 11-16-2017, 12:39 PM
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Let's try one more test of reading comprehension:
So "but he didn't stop there" connects what to what?
Sorry, that's not "reading comprehension". That's "selective editing". Understood that you had to resort to that, of course.

Last edited by Fotheringay-Phipps; 11-16-2017 at 12:40 PM.
  #103  
Old 11-16-2017, 12:42 PM
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So do you think I'm hypocritical? ...
Yes.
  #104  
Old 11-16-2017, 12:42 PM
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Sorry, that's not "reading comprehension". That's "selective editing". Understood that you had to resort to that, of course.
Its good to have a ruling on that. Clears the air.

Last edited by elucidator; 11-16-2017 at 12:44 PM. Reason: Hurr'd
  #105  
Old 11-16-2017, 12:44 PM
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Until 15 minutes ago, pretty much my favorite Senator.

What a pathetic apology. Fuck him. Sure, there's a non-zero chance this is all manufactured, but there's also a non-zero chance Franken is a lizard person. Fuck all harassers and assaulters; every last one of them. If he's a tenth of the person I thought he was 15 minutes ago, he'll give a much better apology and then resign.

Fuck 'em all. Let the hammer fall where it may. Hopefully liberal and progressive office-holders won't let me down, and will refrain from defending Franken or justifying his behavior or attacking his accuser.
I agree, let the hammer fall where it may. Regardless of political or societal position. Because these sort of harassment and abuses are not about sex, they are about power. Men in power abusing their position over women. Al is clearly objectifying and exerting his opportunity over a sleeping woman. Making it a "joke' is no excuse. Does anyone really find the picture funny?

A line needs to firmly be drawn where this sort of thing is clearly unacceptable. If it destroys some otherwise good men so what. Let them fall.

There are lies, rumors, allegations, all that can be flavored through our own personal prism. And then there are pictures. The picture cannot be hand waved away. And to dismiss the woman as acting for political purposes demeans all the women who report these incidents or fail to because they will not be believed.

Al Franken's political future will not, and should not survive this. He has about 10 days, maybe less.
  #106  
Old 11-16-2017, 12:45 PM
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More from Franken:

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/...g-woman-244978
  #107  
Old 11-16-2017, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Fotheringay-Phipps View Post
Of course. Because at the time he was in his Bad Boy Comic mode.

<snip>

But a lot of what these shock jocks do is offensive.
Yep, that excuses what he does when he's offstage.
  #108  
Old 11-16-2017, 12:45 PM
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This does strike me as a situation where two people can have two valid but very different interpretations of how things went down. She acknowledges that the audience likes sexual innuendo and raunchy skits. Franken wrote one of those. Clearly, she thought his motivation was simply to force her to kiss him but it's equally plausible that Franken simply wrote a skit he thought the audience would like. Same thing with the kiss. Is an exaggerated kiss a joke or was Franken getting his rocks off?

The way she exaggerates doesn't sit well with me. She says that he groped her and kissed her without consent. Her story and the picture contradict that. She says she said "Ok" to the kiss after he badgered her into it. Obviously badgering someone into kissing you is clearly wrong, but it's also clearly different than kissing someone without their consent. Same thing with the picture. Franken clearly is not actually groping her but pretending to. Again, obviously clearly wrong, but also clearly not groping her. Given these exaggerations, I'm less inclined to trust her characterizations of the other events.

Either way, this strikes me as different from the other accusations we've heard. In those cases, there is no doubt that the actions were criminal and inappropriate. This one seems to be in a gray area.
  #109  
Old 11-16-2017, 12:46 PM
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Looks like a dumb joke to me. Mostly because its so clearly posed. The two-handed open thrust is a pointedly stupid way to "cop a feel". Its a cliche. His backward over the shoulder leer underscores this, "look at this stupid joke I am making!". And through a Kevlar vest? Only way you might know where they are is by an assumed and general topography, they're usually right around here, somewhere.

A good man can, and will, be wrong. And adjust accordingly. Judge Teenyboink is the same man now as he was forty years past, mean-spirited, cruel and ignorant. Do I judge him for his politics? Hard to tell, chicken and egg, his politics are mean-spirited, cruel and ignorant as well.

Does this cause confusion to my enemies, the Forces of Darkness, do I look upon that with a measure of glee? Hugh Betcha!
Way to avoid his forced and unwanted tongue kissing.
  #110  
Old 11-16-2017, 12:46 PM
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Disclaimer: yes, I'm a liberal, and I'd been surprisingly impressed with Franken's performance as a senator.

The fact that she's apparently been a regular guest on Fox News programs (I acknowledge that I'd never heard of her before 2 hours ago) suggests to me the possibility that the timing of her revealing her story was in response to the Roy Moore stories, and may have had some political / partisan motivations.

On the other hand, the timing may also have been influenced by all of the other sexual harassment revelations from the past few weeks.

Regardless, I see no reason to doubt her story. There's a picture of the "groping" shot, and Franken acknowledged the gist of her story (even though he claimed to have not remembered it going down in quite the same manner). He comes across as both a horndog, and vindictive.
  #111  
Old 11-16-2017, 12:47 PM
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Any evidence that any Repubs are pedophiles?
Really?

Quote:
He also said he didn't remember. It doesn't sound like he has done the right thing to me.
He didn't use that as an excuse, just stated it as a fact. Went on to say what he remembers is not relevant.
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  #112  
Old 11-16-2017, 12:49 PM
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Sorry, that's not "reading comprehension". That's "selective editing". Understood that you had to resort to that, of course.
OK then, edit it the way you think I should have edited it, to show how I was 'selective.'

Because the only damn way I was 'selective' was to not quote half the damn article. We've got rules against that.
  #113  
Old 11-16-2017, 12:49 PM
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Any evidence that any Repubs are pedophiles?

He also said he didn't remember. It doesn't sound like he has done the right thing to me.
He doesn't remember it the same way, which to me means that she is telling the truth, as is Franken on his memory.

It was a big deal to her, rightfully. Assuming it wasn't a pattern for Franken (which is fair until the next shoe drops), it was a lark to him at the time and there would be no particular reason to him remember the details.
  #114  
Old 11-16-2017, 12:50 PM
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I am amazed at the rush to judgement here and elsewhere. Particularly in liberal circles.

So far we have an accusation by one woman against one man of a forced kiss and groping while she was sleeping.

1) The groping is unclear. The photographic evidence is of him mimicking groping her but not actually touching her.

2) The facts of the kissing incident are disputed by him and by her own admission there were no witnesses nor did she tell anyone who could do anything about it at the time.

3) He drew devils horns on photographs of her during the tour.

That's it. And for this there are calls for his resignation all over the internet.

For #1, unless he actually did fondle her, it is hard to get overly fussed about it. In poor taste sure but I see no evidence that he tried to use this to harm her reputation or mess with her career. If he did fondle her then that is a crime and he should be held accountable.

For #2 she admits she consented to the kiss but he took the kiss too far. He says he remembers the incident differently.

For #3 I'm not sure what the problem is at all.

We have no evidence that Franken further helped or hindered Tweeden's career (so no quid pro quo/casting couch thing) nor was the photo ever used publicly that I have seen (and if so got few views).

The timing of this is also suspect. Why now? Why not during his run for senator or wait till he runs again? Conservatives have a history of ginning up stories that have little merit (e.g. ACORN to name one).

I know it is popular to #believethewoman but seems to me you should need more than the above to end someone's career. Currently we have a he said/she said.

I felt this about Cosby and Moore and Spacey and Weinstein and others as well. In the end a lot more evidence came out on those guys and they all proved to be serious creeps (to put it mildly). If more comes out about Franken then he needs to be held to account as well.

Till then I think it is too soon to be demanding Franken's ouster from the senate.

Last edited by Whack-a-Mole; 11-16-2017 at 12:51 PM.
  #115  
Old 11-16-2017, 12:51 PM
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A good apology.
  #116  
Old 11-16-2017, 12:55 PM
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... and one unsubstantiated allegation from a woman with such an obvious motive?
I guess I missed it. What is her motive?
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  #117  
Old 11-16-2017, 12:55 PM
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Really?



He didn't use that as an excuse, just stated it as a fact. Went on to say what he remembers is not relevant.
I don't think you understand what pedophilia is.
  #118  
Old 11-16-2017, 12:56 PM
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The timing of this is also suspect. Why now? Why not during his run for senator or wait till he runs again? Conservatives have a history of ginning up stories that have little merit.
Perhaps progressives shouldn't run plays from the Roy Moore defense playbook.
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  #119  
Old 11-16-2017, 12:57 PM
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And that, ladies and gentlemen, is how you accept responsibility for fucking up and apologize.
  #120  
Old 11-16-2017, 12:58 PM
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Yes, Al Franken's pseudo-apology is much lamer than Roy Moore's most honorable expression of contrition.

oh, wait …
  #121  
Old 11-16-2017, 12:59 PM
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Perhaps progressives shouldn't run plays from the Roy Moore defense playbook.
Huh?

Roy Moore is currently running for office. The election is in less than a month.

Franken is not currently running for office. His current term in office ends in 2021.

Last edited by Whack-a-Mole; 11-16-2017 at 12:59 PM.
  #122  
Old 11-16-2017, 12:59 PM
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So do you think I'm hypocritical?

Do you think it's disingenuous for me to claim to see a meaningful distinction between multiple substantiated allegations from women with no obvious motivation to lie and one unsubstantiated allegation from a woman with such an obvious motive? That doesn't seem like an intellectually defensible position to you?
Shame on you for this argument. A woman's past or present political affiliations have nothing to do with their credibility. Shame on you and anyone else using this argument as reason to cast doubt on her credibility.
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  #123  
Old 11-16-2017, 01:00 PM
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What was the malicious intent?
Well, if you read the article, it's obvious:
Quote:
Other than our dialogue on stage, I never had a voluntary conversation with Al Franken again. I avoided him as much as possible and made sure I was never alone with him again for the rest of the tour.

Franken repaid me with petty insults, including drawing devil horns on at least one of the headshots I was autographing for the troops.

But he didn’t stop there.

I couldn’t believe it. He groped me, without my consent, while I was asleep.

I felt violated all over again. Embarrassed. Belittled. Humiliated.

How dare anyone grab my breasts like this and think it’s funny?
Quote:
You forcibly kissed me without my consent, grabbed my breasts while I was sleeping and had someone take a photo of you doing it, knowing I would see it later, and be ashamed.
But maybe she's overreacting, or hyping this up for the benefit of conservatives? Well, let me set a ground rule: I don't think that's it's a stretch to say that a person doing something that "isn't funny" is "completely inappropriate", that is "obvious" that the victim and "millions of other women would feel violated by it" is pretty obviously acting with malicious intent. With that in mind, what does Al Franken say about the picture?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Franken
For instance, that picture. I don't know what was in my head when I took that picture, and it doesn't matter. There's no excuse. I look at it now and I feel disgusted with myself. It isn't funny. It's completely inappropriate. It's obvious how Leeann would feel violated by that picture. And, what's more, I can see how millions of other women would feel violated by it—women who have had similar experiences in their own lives, women who fear having those experiences, women who look up to me, women who have counted on me.
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Who has done that in this thread?
For one, the person denying the obvious malicious intent involved when a man who had been harassing a woman after being rebuffed by her took "completely inappropriate" pictures of her that it's obvious to him that she would feel violated by.

Last edited by Pantastic; 11-16-2017 at 01:01 PM.
  #124  
Old 11-16-2017, 01:00 PM
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OK then, edit it the way you think I should have edited it, to show how I was 'selective.'

Because the only damn way I was 'selective' was to not quote half the damn article. We've got rules against that.
Can't help. The quote is selective regardless.

Her article alleged two incidents. She was kissed and groped. She describes the kissing episode and its aftermath at some length, and then says that's not all he did and goes on to describe him groping her. The last sentence of the kissing part was about him repaying her with petty insults, and by beginning your quote with that sentence you made it appear that the "that's not all" was a reference to that one sentence. A fuller quote would allow for the more likely interpretation that the "that's not all" was referring to the kissing, and not to the final sentence about petty insults.

The context of all this is that it's not at all clear that she was interpreting his "groping" as an insult aimed at her, but more likely as something more analogous to the kissing.

But I don't think this is worth arguing about further. (She was sleeping at the time anyway.)
  #125  
Old 11-16-2017, 01:02 PM
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Huh?

Roy Moore is currently running for office. The election is in less than a month.

Franken is not currently running for office. His current term in office ends in 2021.
Then why did you raise the timing in your previous post?
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  #126  
Old 11-16-2017, 01:04 PM
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OK then, edit it the way you think I should have edited it, to show how I was 'selective.'
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Can't help. The quote is selective regardless.
Uhhuh.
  #127  
Old 11-16-2017, 01:05 PM
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Shame on you for this argument. A woman's past or present political affiliations have nothing to do with their credibility. Shame on you and anyone else using this argument as reason to cast doubt on her credibility.
Of course political affiliation has a lot to do with accusations against political figures. This should be obvious. It is obvious, in fact.

That's not to say such accusations should be dismissed. But to insist that political affiliation has zero bearing and should not be considered at all is ridiculous.

This "shame on you" attempt at petty intimidation is silly.
  #128  
Old 11-16-2017, 01:05 PM
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Shame on you for this argument. A woman's past or present political affiliations have nothing to do with their credibility. Shame on you and anyone else using this argument as reason to cast doubt on her credibility.
I agree with you. Franken's behavior was shitty and proof that this is not a partisan issue, men of all political stripes have behaved like creeps. To not own up to that and call out creep behavior when it happens is to be part of the problem.
  #129  
Old 11-16-2017, 01:07 PM
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FWIW:

Quote:
Woman who accused Franken says she accepts his apology

The woman who accused Sen. Al Franken (D-Minn.) of sexual misconduct said Thursday she accepts his apology.

"The apology, sure I accept it, yes. People make mistakes and of course he knew he made a mistake," she said. "So yes I do accept that apology."

She said it's up to Congress whether they want to have an ethics investigation into Franken's behavior.

"There's no reason why I shouldn't accept his apology," she said.

She said she wasn't "looking for anything" when she shared her story.

SOURCE: http://thehill.com/homenews/news/360...ts-his-apology
  #130  
Old 11-16-2017, 01:08 PM
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Then why did you raise the timing in your previous post?
Because (for now) it smells like a smoke screen for Roy Moore and typical conservative "whataboutism".

Last edited by Whack-a-Mole; 11-16-2017 at 01:08 PM.
  #131  
Old 11-16-2017, 01:10 PM
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Disclaimer: liberal, like Franken. But I think I've been consistent.

I will be interested in seeing what the final shake out is WRT "sexual harassment". I feel that absent egregious factors, an isolated decades in the past should not define how an otherwise upstanding person is judged today. We are a sexual species. What is within the conceivable range of acceptable or excusable in a bar, is clearly different than in a professional workplace. Or the age/power of the respective parties. Isolated event vs pattern of behavior. Hypocrisy might also be relevant - such as engaging in homosexual activity while publicly condemning same.

How the person responds to the accusations is also relevant in assessing their present character. Moreover, while not "blaming the victim", I believe that memories are often terribly unreliable.

I'll be happy if we truly see some changes in behavioral norms as the result of this current climate. And I'm thrilled to see truly bad actors bear consequences. But I hope that every instance of poor judgment ought not have outsized repercussions years down the road.
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  #132  
Old 11-16-2017, 01:12 PM
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Roy Moore is going to speak soon, right now, they are busy praying. No sign of a smiting.
  #133  
Old 11-16-2017, 01:16 PM
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I'd hate to see the Dems feel compelled to make an example of one of their own for a relatively minor transgression whilst the shameless Republicans feel no such compulsion.
  #134  
Old 11-16-2017, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
Shame on you for this argument. A woman's past or present political affiliations have nothing to do with their credibility. Shame on you and anyone else using this argument as reason to cast doubt on her credibility.
If an argument is poor or flawed, that's fair game to call it out. Shaming other posters however personalizes the argument. Please do not personalize your arguments in this fashion.

[/moderating]
  #135  
Old 11-16-2017, 01:23 PM
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I guess I missed it. What is her motive?
She has been a frequent guest on Sean Hannity's show. About an hour ago I found some cites on Google of her identifying as a Tea Party supporter and saying she would like to "kick Obama's ass", but now all the search results are pointing to stories about today's allegations.

On the fifth page down I found this example of her promoting birtherism on Hannity's show.
  #136  
Old 11-16-2017, 01:24 PM
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I'd hate to see the Dems feel compelled to make an example of one of their own for a relatively minor transgression whilst the shameless Republicans feel no such compulsion.
If there's a easy-to-understand standard that can be applied consistently besides "has/hasn't committed sexual assault/harassment," I'm all ears.

But in the absence of such a standard, that's where we've got to draw the line. It's probably where it should be drawn, period. Even when one of my favorite politicians falls on the wrong side of it.
  #137  
Old 11-16-2017, 01:26 PM
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you know ive always got the impression that franken was like most comics somewhat funny but a major dick he just was more intellectual tham most and this hasn't changed my mind ......
  #138  
Old 11-16-2017, 01:26 PM
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For #1, unless he actually did fondle her, it is hard to get overly fussed about it.
Al Franken strongly disagrees with you on this. He actually says that there's no excuse for the pciture, that he's disgusted with himself for taking it, and that it's obvious millions of women would feel violated by it. I think I'll take the accused's side in this instance! "For instance, that picture. I don't know what was in my head when I took that picture, and it doesn't matter. There's no excuse. I look at it now and I feel disgusted with myself. It isn't funny. It's completely inappropriate. It's obvious how Leeann would feel violated by that picture. And, what's more, I can see how millions of other women would feel violated by itówomen who have had similar experiences in their own lives, women who fear having those experiences, women who look up to me, women who have counted on me.


Quote:
I know it is popular to #believethewoman but seems to me you should need more than the above to end someone's career. Currently we have a he said/she said.
No we don't. We have a 'she said, he didn't disagree with her about the kiss, and he also said the photograph was wildly inappropriate'. That's a 'she said, he partially agreed and didn't disagree with anything she said'.

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Originally Posted by treis View Post
The way she exaggerates doesn't sit well with me. She says that he groped her and kissed her without consent. Her story and the picture contradict that. She says she said "Ok" to the kiss after he badgered her into it. Obviously badgering someone into kissing you is clearly wrong, but it's also clearly different than kissing someone without their consent.
Getting consent for a stage kiss is not the same thing as consent for shoving your tongue into their mouth. He lacked any actual consent for what he did. And as for the rest, see his own description of the picture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowboarder Bo View Post
Are we to be similarly outraged by millions of photos taken by college students, like these?
Drunk college students engage in all kinds of awful behavior, I can't believe someone would argue 'drunk college students do this, so clearly it's OK' in general. But especially when we're talking about not just a grown man, but a US Senator - I really don't think "Only does stuff as bad as drunk college students do" is a good standard of behavior.
  #139  
Old 11-16-2017, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Fotheringay-Phipps View Post
Of course political affiliation has a lot to do with accusations against political figures. This should be obvious. It is obvious, in fact.

That's not to say such accusations should be dismissed. But to insist that political affiliation has zero bearing and should not be considered at all is ridiculous.

This "shame on you" attempt at petty intimidation is silly.
No, it's not obvious. Credibility for allegations of personal misbehavior is (or should be) based on honesty, plausibility, etc. Not who one associates with, or one's political beliefs. A liberal accusing a conservative, or vice versa, is no more or less credible than a liberal accusing a liberal, or conservative accusing a conservative.
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  #140  
Old 11-16-2017, 01:28 PM
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If an argument is poor or flawed, that's fair game to call it out. Shaming other posters however personalizes the argument. Please do not personalize your arguments in this fashion.

[/moderating]
Understood. I'll leave out the "shame on you" outside of the Pit.
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Old 11-16-2017, 01:29 PM
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I'd hate to see the Dems feel compelled to make an example of one of their own for a relatively minor transgression whilst the shameless Republicans feel no such compulsion.
So you're saying you don't think the Democrats should actually strive to be better than Republicans, and that they should only be opposed to sexual assault if it serves to give them more power? That's pretty awful, and very damaging to sexual assault victims. And might explain the difficulties Democrats have in trying to claim the high ground against Republicans.

Also, Al Franken doesn't think this was a minor transgression that should be glossed over, "It's completely inappropriate.... And, what's more, I can see how millions of other women would feel violated by itówomen who have had similar experiences in their own lives, women who fear having those experiences, women who look up to me, women who have counted on me."
  #142  
Old 11-16-2017, 01:30 PM
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FWIW:
The second apology was much better, IMO. I still think he ought to resign. Having gropers in prominent positions in the party hurts the party.
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  #143  
Old 11-16-2017, 01:34 PM
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The political danger there is that once they've established the precedent that the correct response to accusations against a sitting senator is to force them to resign, you'll probably be able to count the milliseconds on one hand until a bunch of red-state Dem senators have accusations made against them.
Yeah. Asking for the resignation of a sitting Senator should be an extraordinary step. I think we're asking for trouble if we lower the bar below "highly credible allegations of serious criminal behavior in the recent past". (and to be clear, the "highly credible" part is what, at least as of yet, I'm not seeing her; the alleged conduct certainly merits resignation). Failing that, let the voters express their judgment at the next regularly scheduled election.
  #144  
Old 11-16-2017, 01:37 PM
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No, it's not obvious. Credibility for allegations of personal misbehavior is (or should be) based on honesty, plausibility, etc. Not who one associates with, or one's political beliefs. A liberal accusing a conservative, or vice versa, is no more or less credible than a liberal accusing a liberal, or conservative accusing a conservative.
Only if you believe that bias doesn't exist. Which would be surprising of anyone, but especially someone who participates in this MB.
  #145  
Old 11-16-2017, 01:40 PM
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No, it's not obvious. Credibility for allegations of personal misbehavior is (or should be) based on honesty, plausibility, etc. Not who one associates with, or one's political beliefs. A liberal accusing a conservative, or vice versa, is no more or less credible than a liberal accusing a liberal, or conservative accusing a conservative.
So you think that the fact that she went on national TV to claim that President Obama was born in Kenya isn't relevant to evaluating the accuser's honesty and plausibility?
  #146  
Old 11-16-2017, 01:40 PM
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Only if you believe that bias doesn't exist. Which would be surprising of anyone, but especially someone who participates in this MB.
Bias exists, but it can exist in any direction. I don't see how political affiliation is relevant.

If there's evidence that they lied for political gain, then okay. But until and unless that (or other evidence of lying) is found, every accusation should be treated and approached the same, IMO. That means no attacking accusers for being on one side or the other.
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  #147  
Old 11-16-2017, 01:41 PM
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BTW: This was up early today on NPR thanks to Moore:
No One Has Been Expelled From The Senate Since The Civil War

Seems appropriate reading for those thinking an investigation in Franken is worthwhile. Not much to investigate anyway. She said, he mostly acknowledged.
  #148  
Old 11-16-2017, 01:43 PM
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So you think that the fact that she went on national TV to claim that President Obama was born in Kenya isn't relevant to evaluating the accuser's honesty and plausibility?
For political claims, yes (assuming she did). Not for claims about personal mistreatment. Not unless you have evidence she lied about Franken.

I find the attacks in your posts on this women for nothing more than coming forward and telling a story (a story that Franken has almost entirely admitted to and apologized for) to be disgusting, and to contribute to this shit culture we have about women who accuse men of mistreatment. That attitude helps abusers, and hurts victims.
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Old 11-16-2017, 01:45 PM
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I should be pleased that a Democrat is in deep doodoo but I'm not. If a man's political career can be destroyed over this one incident then we should all be worried.
  #150  
Old 11-16-2017, 01:46 PM
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Bias exists, but it can exist in any direction. I don't see how political affiliation is relevant.
People are biased in the direction of their political affiliation. People think more negatively of people they're opposed to politically, and are more apt to interpret their actions negatively. In addition, they're biased by their ability to impact politics in their preferred direction.

Quote:
If there's evidence that they lied for political gain, then okay.
Even if there's no evidence, it needs to be considered as a possibility. It's silly to ignore it. The actual likelihood would vary based on the circumstances of the particular case, and the supporting evidence.
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