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  #201  
Old 01-19-2019, 12:27 AM
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FWIW and IIRC Woodward and Bernstein also did not see direct evidence either when they reported first on what Deepthroat and others told them about Watergate.

Point being that the same point would had been made then to W and B and we know how that ended.
There is, however, a big difference between Woodward and Bernstein in the Nixon administration vs Jason Leopold and Buzzfeed today. Woodward and Bernstein didn't have a long history of publishing what they knew to be blatant lies. Leopold does.

Here's an article from from the widely respected Columbia Journalism Review documenting Leopold's history of lying and then blaming everyone except himself when he gets caught. It's his standard modus operandi to just go to print declaring that he's done a ton of research and has a pile of verifiable evidence and reliable witnesses, when in reality he's got nothing. He lies about seeing evidence. He fabricates quotes. He says that he interviewed people when in reality he never even met them.

Combine that with Buzzfeed's total lack of standards and there's just not much here.
  #202  
Old 01-19-2019, 09:50 AM
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Beginning to look like Buzzfeed got Rathered.
  #203  
Old 01-19-2019, 10:01 AM
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There is, however, a big difference between Woodward and Bernstein in the Nixon administration vs Jason Leopold and Buzzfeed today. Woodward and Bernstein didn't have a long history of publishing what they knew to be blatant lies. Leopold does.

Here's an article from from the widely respected Columbia Journalism Review documenting Leopold's history of lying and then blaming everyone except himself when he gets caught ...
I agree with you about the quality of the CJR and Leopold's spotty history, but aside from the fact that another reporter, Anthony Cormier, was also involved in the story, I have to ask, what is your point? Is it your contention that there's no way Trump would ever have directed Cohen to lie to Congress? Trump, who has virtually made a career out of lying, who is such a habitual liar and so corrupt, self-serving, and morally bankrupt that he pretty much regards "truth" as any story that benefits his self-interest regardless of its relation to the facts, and who has repeatedly, incontrovertibly directed others to lie and cover up his misdeeds?

Mueller's office has indicated that there are factual inaccuracies in the story, but we don't know what they are, or how significant they are. My belief is that he'd prefer that any calls for serious actions like impeachment be based on the solid facts established by his investigation and not on anything that could be undermined by challenges to even the most superficial aspects of the allegations.

I'll put it this way. If Jason Leopold says it's a duck, and I observe that it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then I'm going to be inclined to believe that it is a duck, notwithstanding Leopold's regrettable track record in misidentifying waterfowl.

This is, as Jeffrey Toobin pointed out, a bad day for journalism, but it really tells us nothing about what the facts are. And it's a good day for the Trumpists, because it implicitly casts doubt on all other allegations, even well established ones. In fact, if the Trumpists in the White House weren't such a laughable cadre of incompetents, I might almost suspect that they planted the Buzzfeed story.

Last edited by wolfpup; 01-19-2019 at 10:05 AM.
  #204  
Old 01-19-2019, 02:36 PM
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Beginning to look like Buzzfeed got Rathered.
I'm familiar with the Dan Rather episode, and have my own impression of it, but would still like to see an explicit definition of this new verb.

I Googled "Rathered" but to no avail as descriptionist dictionaries now show () :
Quote:
rather
...
Verb
(third-person singular simple present rathers, present participle rathering, simple past and past participle rathered)

(nonstandard or dialectal) To prefer; to prefer to.
  #205  
Old 01-19-2019, 04:37 PM
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Dan Rather reported, although in good faith, falsified evidence about something that actually did happen (Dubya Bush's blowing off his National Guard service). That falseness got used in a partisan political manner to discredit all the real evidence and its factuality.
  #206  
Old 01-19-2019, 05:29 PM
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Dan Rather reported, although in good faith, falsified evidence about something that actually did happen (Dubya Bush's blowing off his National Guard service). That falseness got used in a partisan political manner to discredit all the real evidence and its factuality.
Yes. I'm specifically interested in the provenance of the apparently forged documents. Were they created by Karl Rove or one of his disciples to deflect attention from the truth? If so would that be a different verb: "Dan Rather had gotten Roved and with the 'Killian documents' discredited was forced to resign."
  #207  
Old 01-19-2019, 08:18 PM
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My meaning of the term is that he was fed, not merely falsified info, but falsified info with a "fatal flaw" built into it which, once exposed, would be used to discredit Rather specifically and the "liberal media" generally. (The "fatal flaw" in this instance was the use of "superscripts" which would not have been used on the typewriters on which the documents were supposedly typed.)
  #208  
Old 01-19-2019, 08:54 PM
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Beginning to look like Buzzfeed got Rathered.
Or perhaps Sloaned. Hugh Sloan worked for the Committee to Re-Elect the President. Woodward and Bernstein used him as an unnamed source in a story but got one relatively minor fact wrong, that Sloan had given the the grand jury the same information he gave them. The White House used that error to denounce the entire story. The essence of the story was later proven and WoodStein's reputation restored, to say the least.

Moral of the story: stick to the long game.
  #209  
Old 01-25-2019, 11:34 AM
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My meaning of the term is that he was fed, not merely falsified info, but falsified info with a "fatal flaw" built into it which, once exposed, would be used to discredit Rather specifically and the "liberal media" generally. (The "fatal flaw" in this instance was the use of "superscripts" which would not have been used on the typewriters on which the documents were supposedly typed.)
But that is Rather's fault. If you reach a level in journalism as he did, you don't go off frothing at the mouth upon seeking these documents simply because he wanted so badly to hurt George W. Bush. He did not do basic fact checking.

Had he shown me those documents, within five minutes I would have observed that early 1970s typewriters could not make those superscripts. The episode exposed Rather as a journalist who had a clear bias, one so bad that he allowed such shoddy evidence to come out on a national network. I don't feel sorry for him a bit.
  #210  
Old 01-25-2019, 11:52 AM
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Had he shown me those documents, within five minutes I would have observed that early 1970s typewriters could not make those superscripts.
Lol. How can you possibly expect anyone to believe that?
  #211  
Old 01-25-2019, 11:56 AM
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Lol. How can you possibly expect anyone to believe that?
Didn't you know? He worked his way through law school at a typewriter repair shop!

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  #212  
Old 01-25-2019, 11:58 AM
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Had he shown me those documents, within five minutes I would have observed that early 1970s typewriters could not make those superscripts.
I suspect you're rather severely exaggerating your expertise, given that a number of experts believed that such typewriters did exist. For example, from Wikipedia:
John Collins, vice president and chief technology officer at Bitstream Inc., the parent of MyFonts.com, stated that word processors that could produce proportional-sized fonts cost upwards of $20,000 at the time (equivalent to $120,000 in 2018)
Which is a statement that it could be done, but would require expensive equipment. Also:
Bill Glennon, a technology consultant in New York City with typewriter repair experience from 1973 to 1985, said experts making the claim that typewriters were incapable of producing the memos "are full of crap. They just don't know." He said there were IBM machines capable of producing the spacing, and a customized key ó the likes of which he said were not unusual ó for creating the superscript th.
Now, maybe these experts are wrong. But they are actual experts, and they're not nearly as sure as you claim to be that it couldn't be done.

When someone who is not an expert makes definitive claims about something which actual experts are unsure of, I suspect that person probably isn't worth listening to.
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  #213  
Old 01-25-2019, 12:32 PM
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I'm not sure where the current conversation is at but this thread is finally becoming relevant, possibly.

Trump goes down when his popularity goes down. Until he's below 30%, the GOP will do nothing.

So long as the shutdown is on, people are liable to view any evidence against Trump and his campaign as particularly negative.

At the same time, so long as the shutdown is on, it slows down Congress and the FBI, both of whom are investigating him.

There is a very real chance that Trump will extend the shutdown. If he does, the Stone news added on top of it will tank his popularity.

If he doesn't, then he has a little bit more time. But, fortunately, Trump is stupid. I expect him to continue the shutdown.
  #214  
Old 01-25-2019, 01:50 PM
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Nope, I was wrong.
  #215  
Old 01-25-2019, 02:25 PM
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Didn't you know? He worked his way through law school at a typewriter repair shop!

Since you mentioned it, I indeed DID work for a small business that repaired computers, copiers, and typewriters before I went to law school.
  #216  
Old 01-25-2019, 02:26 PM
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Since you mentioned it, I indeed DID work for a small business that repaired computers, copiers, and typewriters before I went to law school.
What year was that?
  #217  
Old 01-25-2019, 02:45 PM
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What year was that?
late 90s/early 00s
  #218  
Old 01-26-2019, 01:17 AM
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Trump has has raised the white flag on building his wall.

This is genuinely the beginning of the end for him, because once his supporters start to see him as a 'loser', he is finished.

The kind of people who support Trump don't like 'losers'.

He wanted $5.7 billion and got exactly $0. And with his shutdown, he managed to piss off large numbers of people in the process. He has failed, surrendered, come out with hands up. Nancy Pelosi has won.

He can't hide from this, or talk his way out of it. His next attempt to build his wall (if there ever is one) will be more difficult, not less. It's not going to happen. From now on, his only way is down.
  #219  
Old 01-26-2019, 12:10 PM
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His next attempt to build his wall (if there ever is one) will be more difficult, not less. It's not going to happen. From now on, his only way is down.
his next attempt will likely be in 3 weeks. I'm hopeful it is not successful nor that he holds the government hostage again, but honestly I see him attempting to play the National Emergency card.

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  #220  
Old 01-26-2019, 12:56 PM
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The kind of people who support Trump don't like 'losers'.

Because I like a good dose of Schadenfreude when I can get it, I lurked on over to the free republic to see how they were handling things.

Loosely I would say that they broke down roughly evenly into 3 categories

1) feeling upset/betrayed with the RINO refusing to defend the border ala Ann Coulter
2) Disappointed but being sure to state that they were still standing by Trump
3) Convinced that this wasn't really a set back and the the Democrats fell into Trumps cleverly laid trap. The master Negotiator clearly has something up his sleeve that will wipe the smile off the Dems face. Just you wait!

Last edited by Buck Godot; 01-26-2019 at 12:57 PM.
  #221  
Old 01-26-2019, 01:15 PM
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his next attempt will likely be in 3 weeks. I'm hopeful it is not successful nor that he holds the government hostage again, but honestly I see him attempting to play the National Emergency card.

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He can play that Trump card, but unfortunately for him, the courts hold the actual trump card, which they will most certainly use to slap down that desperate, weak attempt at a bluff.

Last edited by voltaire; 01-26-2019 at 01:16 PM.
  #222  
Old 01-26-2019, 04:56 PM
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The next several days of polling will be interesting.

Look carefully at this last YouGov one.

Strong disapprove outpaces strong approve 45 to 25% overall. The base that approves of Trump is softer in its approval than are those who disapprove. If Buck Godot's read is right then a good many of those who "somewhat approve" may be flipping into a "somewhat disapprove" group, even among those with R self-identification.

If Mueller ends up presenting evidence of actual Trump crimes of significance while Trump is losing some of his floor support then all bets are off on what happens next.
  #223  
Old 01-26-2019, 04:57 PM
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He can play that Trump card, but unfortunately for him, the courts hold the actual trump card, which they will most certainly use to slap down that desperate, weak attempt at a bluff.
That could happen. But there may be a major distraction in play that the Trumpists hope will let Donnie get away with the power grab of declaring a national emergency: WAR WITH VENEZUELA!!!!!!!11!!!!!!

Because: major war! We must trust in our Commander in Chief and not bother him with petty nuisances such as courts ruling on his Emergency powers or Special Counsels offering evidence that our C-in-C is a big fat treasonous criminal.

War! It's important!
  #224  
Old 01-26-2019, 07:50 PM
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That could happen. But there may be a major distraction in play that the Trumpists hope will let Donnie get away with the power grab of declaring a national emergency: WAR WITH VENEZUELA!!!!!!!11!!!!!!

Because: major war! We must trust in our Commander in Chief and not bother him with petty nuisances such as courts ruling on his Emergency powers or Special Counsels offering evidence that our C-in-C is a big fat treasonous criminal.

War! It's important!
If history is anything to go by, Trump will order the bombing of Brazil.
  #225  
Old 01-26-2019, 11:32 PM
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I think that's too much to hope for. Congress (both parties) are going to want to keep him around so that when the stock bubble pops he'll be there to take the blame for it. In other words, they'll want to keep him around as their official scapegoat, particularly if they can keep him shackled now. Of course, if he decides to call it quits, there's not a lot they can do about that.
  #226  
Old 01-27-2019, 07:15 AM
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Nope, I was wrong.
You may be wrong and right at the same time.

On the one hand, yes, Trump tapped out and decided it was better to retreat to fight another day, which was actually the smart move if you look at the issue globally. The problem is, the mere appearance of weakness from the viewpoint of his radical, uncompromising base has now delivered a potent psychological sting to his cadre of holy warriors. He's trapped between his base, who really have an inability to understand how impractical and utterly stupid their ideas are, and the consequences of their insane ideas.
  #227  
Old 01-27-2019, 07:16 AM
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That could happen. But there may be a major distraction in play that the Trumpists hope will let Donnie get away with the power grab of declaring a national emergency: WAR WITH VENEZUELA!!!!!!!11!!!!!!

Because: major war! We must trust in our Commander in Chief and not bother him with petty nuisances such as courts ruling on his Emergency powers or Special Counsels offering evidence that our C-in-C is a big fat treasonous criminal.

War! It's important!
This is a real danger. Trump may increasingly decide his only card left to play is his Commander in Chief card, and forgive me for lacking faith in his ability to do that without potentially serious consequences.
  #228  
Old 01-27-2019, 09:07 AM
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Trump has has raised the white flag on building his wall.

This is genuinely the beginning of the end for him, because once his supporters start to see him as a 'loser', he is finished.

The kind of people who support Trump don't like 'losers'.

He wanted $5.7 billion and got exactly $0. And with his shutdown, he managed to piss off large numbers of people in the process. He has failed, surrendered, come out with hands up. Nancy Pelosi has won.

He can't hide from this, or talk his way out of it. His next attempt to build his wall (if there ever is one) will be more difficult, not less. It's not going to happen. From now on, his only way is down.
There is one glaring problem with this. I agree that Trumps supporters don't like so called 'losers'. But to admit they backed the wrong horse would be admitting to themselves that they, are, in fact, wrong. They would have to admit that they are losers that can't make intelligent informed choices.

My feeling is that no mater what Trump does, there will always be that 30% that support him. To think otherwise would be to admit they are losers.
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  #229  
Old 01-27-2019, 02:39 PM
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There is one glaring problem with this. I agree that Trumps supporters don't like so called 'losers'. But to admit they backed the wrong horse would be admitting to themselves that they, are, in fact, wrong. They would have to admit that they are losers that can't make intelligent informed choices.

My feeling is that no mater what Trump does, there will always be that 30% that support him. To think otherwise would be to admit they are losers.
They just have to learn from the master.

"Trump? Never heard of the guy."
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  #230  
Old 09-19-2019, 07:37 AM
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Okay, maybe this is finally it?


Quote:
Neal Katyal, who formerly served as acting solicitor general of the U.S., said on Twitter Tuesday that the nascent scandal could turn out to be "huge," given the apparent efforts of the Department of Justice and White House to squash the issue.

It is unclear which foreign leader Trump was speaking with or what was being discussed, but Katyal said all signs point to significant wrongdoing by the president. "This is going to be huge," he predicted. "DOJ & Admin are contorting themselves backwards to try to hide this."

He continued: "Truth will come out. There are probably tapes and transcripts documenting a gross abuse of power by Trump. Gonna be ugly. And enablers should all face consequences."

Newsweek
Maybe?
  #231  
Old 09-19-2019, 07:38 AM
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For it to be, the democratic party would have to do something. And they won't.
  #232  
Old 09-19-2019, 07:43 AM
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Really, if it is a big thing, it would be on the Republicans to do something, and they won't. With these Republicans controlling the senate, it doesn't matter if the truth comes out, or if it's big, or if it's damning. They'll cover for their guy.

Last edited by bobot; 09-19-2019 at 07:44 AM.
  #233  
Old 09-19-2019, 07:59 AM
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For it to be, the democratic party would have to do something. And they won't.
Ignorant about how our government works when Republicans control the Senate, are you?
  #234  
Old 09-19-2019, 12:34 PM
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For it to be, the democratic party would have to do something. And they won't.
Blame the eligible voters who don't show up on Election Day. They're the lazy slobs who put Trump and McConnell into positions of strangling the entire process. They might complain every now and again, but then they go back to watching the Kardashians and their monster-truck rallies.

Radical Muslims called the USA "the Great Satan." If I were Satan, I'd be insulted. Satan actually takes some pride in his work. Something we as a country haven't done in a very long time.
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  #235  
Old 09-19-2019, 12:53 PM
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Is this finally it? Is this finally the series of events that will end Trump's presidency?
Given that this thread was started over a year ago, I'm going to say the answer is "no".
  #236  
Old 09-19-2019, 01:04 PM
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How about focusing upon winning the next damn presidential election? Could the collective Democratic Party start looking into that, instead of the "Ooh, we got him now!" fantasies?

Because that is what they all are, fantasies. He will not be removed except by the usual process, you know, the election. I don't think that the party realizes how silly this stuff is all getting.
  #237  
Old 09-19-2019, 02:44 PM
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How about focusing upon winning the next damn presidential election? Could the collective Democratic Party start looking into that, instead of the "Ooh, we got him now!" fantasies?

Because that is what they all are, fantasies. He will not be removed except by the usual process, you know, the election. I don't think that the party realizes how silly this stuff is all getting.
If the Republicans have their way, even an election won't remove him. You remember, of course, that he lost the last popular vote by 3 million, right?

The electoral process has to be allowed to work properly with no interference. Voting district boundaries should be fair and representative of the population living in them. The registration process should be straightforward and simple. There need to be ample locations to cast ballots and people need to be able to GET to them, even if it means carpooling. Organizations should be allowed to give people who don't have transportation rides to the polls. Voters should be able to go to the polls without jeopardizing their jobs, personal safety, or family's well-being (can't find a babysitter - tough!).

The Republicans have made it abundantly clear that they aren't interested in facilitating ANY of these things. Mitch as much as said that making the voting process easy favors Democrats-- can't let that happen.
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  #238  
Old 09-19-2019, 03:20 PM
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Will it swing 20 R senators to vote for removal in an impeachment trial? Of course not.

Will it be a nice juicy nugget for the ongoing House impeachment hearings to expose and publicize with snowballing evidence throughout the course of the 2020 election? Let's fucking hope so.
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  #239  
Old 09-19-2019, 03:46 PM
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Ignorant about how our government works when Republicans control the Senate, are you?
A primer for you:

WRT impeachment, the ball's in the House's court. It's controlled by Democrats.

If they impeach, then the ball will be in the (GOP-controlled) Senate's court. If the House gives them the opportunity to remove Trump and they fail to take it*, I'll blame Mitch and his henchmen then.

They're evil. Pelosi and her crew aren't evil, but they sure are enabling it through their inaction.

*ETA: Which is what I fully expect, of course.

Last edited by RTFirefly; 09-19-2019 at 03:46 PM.
  #240  
Old 09-19-2019, 05:33 PM
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How about focusing upon winning the next damn presidential election? Could the collective Democratic Party start looking into that, instead of the "Ooh, we got him now!" fantasies?

Because that is what they all are, fantasies. He will not be removed except by the usual process, you know, the election. I don't think that the party realizes how silly this stuff is all getting.
"Silly" is not a word I would use when talking about what is going on with our government.

What's happening is anything but silly.
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  #241  
Old 09-19-2019, 06:33 PM
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This does sound like the kind of thing that could have a pretty huge impact, in combination with economic slowdown and declining poll numbers. There could be a panic and stampede by Republicans in semi-purple states. I’m not saying it will happen, but I would give it about a 20% chance.


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For it to be, the democratic party would have to do something. And they won't.


Last edited by SlackerInc; 09-19-2019 at 06:34 PM.
  #242  
Old 09-19-2019, 07:24 PM
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My bet is he made military assistance to Ukraine contingent on looking for dirt on Joe Biden Jr. Notice the White House suddenly approved the aid package last week? Even if they have a recorded phone call detailing such, the Republicans will just say "oh you know how Trump is, you can't take what he says seriously."
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Old 09-19-2019, 09:02 PM
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It’s hard to imagine it’s anything that extreme, and if it were shown to be, I think you would see the defections of 10 to 20 Senate Republicans.
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Old 09-19-2019, 09:13 PM
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Itís hard to imagine itís anything that extreme, and if it were shown to be, I think you would see the defections of 10 to 20 Senate Republicans.
Nah.
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Old 09-19-2019, 09:24 PM
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Don't we need to know what the hell it is before we start freaking out?
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Old 09-19-2019, 11:34 PM
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My bet is he made military assistance to Ukraine contingent on looking for dirt on Joe Biden Jr. Notice the White House suddenly approved the aid package last week? Even if they have a recorded phone call detailing such, the Republicans will just say "oh you know how Trump is, you can't take what he says seriously."
You may be right.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-...-2020-campaign
Quote:
Two outlets on Thursday night reported that the complaint in question involves President Trump and matters related to Ukraine. Those outlets, The Washington Post and The New York Times, did not go much further than those details. But earlier reports said that what prompted the whistleblower to come forward was a pledge made by Trump to a foreign leader.
.
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Old 09-19-2019, 11:55 PM
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My bet is he made military assistance to Ukraine contingent on looking for dirt on Joe Biden Jr. Notice the White House suddenly approved the aid package last week? Even if they have a recorded phone call detailing such, the Republicans will just say "oh you know how Trump is, you can't take what he says seriously."
Damn. You seem to have nailed it.
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Old 09-20-2019, 01:50 AM
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Don't we need to know what the hell it is before we start freaking out?
That's not a requirement on the SDMB.
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Old 09-20-2019, 04:17 AM
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What does Ukraine have to do with the Bidens? And how would smearing the son, who died heartbreakingly of brain cancer a few years ago, help Trump in the election?
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Old 09-20-2019, 04:42 AM
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What does Ukraine have to do with the Bidens? And how would smearing the son, who died heartbreakingly of brain cancer a few years ago, help Trump in the election?
https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...n-and-ukraine/
Quote:
Key takeaways

• Hunter Biden did hold a directorship for a Ukrainian gas company while his father was vice president. Experts agree that Hunter Biden's acceptance of the position created a conflict of interest for his father. 
• Vice President Joe Biden did urge Ukraine to fire its top prosecutor, with the threat of withholding U.S. aid. But that was the position of the wider U.S. government, as well as other international institutions.  
• We found no evidence to support the idea that Joe Biden advocated with his son's interests in mind, as the message suggests. It's not even clear that the company was actively under investigation or that a change in prosecutors benefited it.
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