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  #251  
Old 09-20-2019, 12:42 PM
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Is this finally the series of events that will end Trump’s presidency?

Default answer: “No”

For whatever value of “this”.
  #252  
Old 09-20-2019, 01:08 PM
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That's not a requirement on the SDMB.
But, surely this time, if the reports are true, you agree that this is impeachable, right? Surely, this time he has gone too far for you if this is true?
  #253  
Old 09-20-2019, 01:15 PM
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They will try tk distract us by making this about Biden. Just watch.
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  #254  
Old 09-20-2019, 04:40 PM
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What does Ukraine have to do with the Bidens? And how would smearing the son, who died heartbreakingly of brain cancer a few years ago, help Trump in the election?
Just FYI, because it hasn't been made explicitly clear, this issue has to do with Biden's very much alive younger son, Hunter, who served on the board of a Ukranian energy company.

Last edited by KidCharlemagne; 09-20-2019 at 04:41 PM.
  #255  
Old 09-20-2019, 04:43 PM
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Itís hard to imagine itís anything that extreme, and if it were shown to be, I think you would see the defections of 10 to 20 Senate Republicans.
Well I'm 1 for 1 right now. Here's hoping I'm 1 for 2.
  #256  
Old 09-20-2019, 05:02 PM
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Here's what I legitimately don't get about all this. There are of course some pretty dumb people in Congress, but most of them are going to be of at least average intelligence and all of them have to at least have some level of political savvy to get the position in the first place. You look at Trump; the guy is basically incapable of putting together a coherent sentence on any topic, and on everything besides television ratings, New York real estate and himself ends up sounding like an elementary school aged kid who didn't read the book he's supposed to do his report on. Just from what we publicly know, he's raking in taxpayer money through a network of shady partnerships and LLCs, and he refuses to provide any sort of legitimate financial statements. Based on reporting in the NTY and WSJ, I'd be willing to bet you ten thousand dollars he's committed tax fraud. Now he is credibly alleged to be extorting an ostensible ally to open up an investigation into one of his political rivals.

And yet, the Republican party by and large is still in lockstep behind him all the way. In what universe is this guy not a political liability? Why on earth would you be willing to help him quash investigations into these potentially serious issues? What does he do that Mike Pence wouldn't do, or any generic Republican, for that matter? You don't think that Mike Pence would nominate Federalist Society approved judges or sign tax cuts? Why isn't this stuff the end of his hold on power? I'd think even just for self-interest of everyone involved it should be.
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Old 09-20-2019, 05:38 PM
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<snip> In what universe is this guy not a political liability? <snip>
Our universe.

I think that if there is one single thing that this president has proved, it is that about a third of the electorate likes nothing better than a stupid cruel petty bully, as long as he acts like he is stupid just the way they are, and cruel just the way they would be if only they had the power.
  #258  
Old 09-20-2019, 05:52 PM
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Here's what I legitimately don't get about all this. There are of course some pretty dumb people in Congress, but most of them are going to be of at least average intelligence and all of them have to at least have some level of political savvy to get the position in the first place. You look at Trump; the guy is basically incapable of putting together a coherent sentence on any topic, and on everything besides television ratings, New York real estate and himself ends up sounding like an elementary school aged kid who didn't read the book he's supposed to do his report on. Just from what we publicly know, he's raking in taxpayer money through a network of shady partnerships and LLCs, and he refuses to provide any sort of legitimate financial statements. Based on reporting in the NTY and WSJ, I'd be willing to bet you ten thousand dollars he's committed tax fraud. Now he is credibly alleged to be extorting an ostensible ally to open up an investigation into one of his political rivals.

And yet, the Republican party by and large is still in lockstep behind him all the way. In what universe is this guy not a political liability? Why on earth would you be willing to help him quash investigations into these potentially serious issues? What does he do that Mike Pence wouldn't do, or any generic Republican, for that matter? You don't think that Mike Pence would nominate Federalist Society approved judges or sign tax cuts? Why isn't this stuff the end of his hold on power? I'd think even just for self-interest of everyone involved it should be.
You think he is going down quietly if they turn on him? He will take the GOP down with him if they don't support him.
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Old 09-20-2019, 06:28 PM
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And yet, the Republican party by and large is still in lockstep behind him all the way. In what universe is this guy not a political liability? Why on earth would you be willing to help him quash investigations into these potentially serious issues? What does he do that Mike Pence wouldn't do, or any generic Republican, for that matter? You don't think that Mike Pence would nominate Federalist Society approved judges or sign tax cuts? Why isn't this stuff the end of his hold on power? I'd think even just for self-interest of everyone involved it should be.
At this point, everyone left in the Republican party has gone all-in on Trump. They have pushed the stack to the middle of the table and said "let it ride"

If they ever lose, they will lose everything. The entire house of cards will collapse. They know this, so the only thing they know how to do is to keep riding the horse, keep riding, riding, praying to their God all the way. They have to do anything, EVERYthing in the short term to keep this scam going. If it ever collapses, they all go down the gurgle-pipe. Cheat? Sure. Obstruction of Justice? Why not. We're going down a road that ends with arrest and execution of political rivals.
  #260  
Old 09-20-2019, 06:32 PM
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How about this?

The House passes a bill of impeachment covering both Trump and Biden. It'll have a one count against Biden and many counts against Trump. Be sure to include charges of moral turpitude, double dealing, treason, and any other disgusting acts that will be uncomfortable for the religious right, tax hawks, and gun nuts to defend.

It's like baiting a large fishhook with a tiny worm. The ignorant Republican base will howl for convicting a Democrat and demand a vote. But by putting the counts all in one bill, it's either votes on all or none, so McConnell will be in a tough spot. Quite possible Trump himself demands a vote out of hubris.

Senators will have to explain their votes, especially why none of the long list of sins Trump has committed aren't worthy of conviction while Biden's minor technical violation is.

Worst case is Biden is barred from federal office, and gets a comfortable retirement for his noble sacrifice. Best cases are Trump is convicted and/or Democrats win a large majority in the Senate in the next election.
  #261  
Old 09-20-2019, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Pleonast View Post
How about this?

The House passes a bill of impeachment covering both Trump and Biden. It'll have a one count against Biden and many counts against Trump. Be sure to include charges of moral turpitude, double dealing, treason, and any other disgusting acts that will be uncomfortable for the religious right, tax hawks, and gun nuts to defend.
Biden isn't "eligible" for impeachment (currently)
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The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.
  #262  
Old 09-20-2019, 07:15 PM
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Biden isn't "eligible" for impeachment (currently)
I don't think it's clear cut. The House "shall have the sole Power of Impeachment". There's no qualifications on that. And the Senate has "Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States". Disqualification is a meaningful punishment for someone not in office.

It would be litigated in court, of course, but the House could argue that no one has standing to challenge their impeachments, since only the Senate may choose not to convict.
  #263  
Old 09-20-2019, 07:27 PM
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And yet, the Republican party by and large is still in lockstep behind him all the way. In what universe is this guy not a political liability?
He has about 1/4 of the population in his grip. They listen only to him. Any Republican who does not lick his boots will be primaried. If they have any morals, they have a choice of abandoning them or losing their seats. As long as there are at least 33 Republicans who value their seats more than their consciences, he will continue in office.
  #264  
Old 09-20-2019, 07:29 PM
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Thanks.


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Originally Posted by KidCharlemagne View Post
Just FYI, because it hasn't been made explicitly clear, this issue has to do with Biden's very much alive younger son, Hunter, who served on the board of a Ukranian energy company.

Oh, ok. Thanks for the clarification.


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Originally Posted by Ambrosio Spinola View Post
Here's what I legitimately don't get about all this. There are of course some pretty dumb people in Congress, but most of them are going to be of at least average intelligence and all of them have to at least have some level of political savvy to get the position in the first place. You look at Trump; the guy is basically incapable of putting together a coherent sentence on any topic, and on everything besides television ratings, New York real estate and himself ends up sounding like an elementary school aged kid who didn't read the book he's supposed to do his report on. Just from what we publicly know, he's raking in taxpayer money through a network of shady partnerships and LLCs, and he refuses to provide any sort of legitimate financial statements. Based on reporting in the NTY and WSJ, I'd be willing to bet you ten thousand dollars he's committed tax fraud. Now he is credibly alleged to be extorting an ostensible ally to open up an investigation into one of his political rivals.

And yet, the Republican party by and large is still in lockstep behind him all the way. In what universe is this guy not a political liability? Why on earth would you be willing to help him quash investigations into these potentially serious issues? What does he do that Mike Pence wouldn't do, or any generic Republican, for that matter? You don't think that Mike Pence would nominate Federalist Society approved judges or sign tax cuts? Why isn't this stuff the end of his hold on power? I'd think even just for self-interest of everyone involved it should be.

This is all true. And I disagree strongly with the people upthread who claim that the American public actually likes Trumpís schtick. He is the most consistently unpopular president in the history of opinion polling. The problem is that the hardcore rank and file who are most likely to vote in primaries do like it. So those Republican politicians are stuck between a rock and a hard place. They know he is bad for the partyís brand, but they donít dare to defy him, lest they get primaried like Mark Sanford. But I guarantee you a huge number of them wish he would just die.
  #265  
Old 09-20-2019, 07:32 PM
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How about this?



The House passes a bill of impeachment covering both Trump and Biden. It'll have a one count against Biden and many counts against Trump. Be sure to include charges of moral turpitude, double dealing, treason, and any other disgusting acts that will be uncomfortable for the religious right, tax hawks, and gun nuts to defend.



It's like baiting a large fishhook with a tiny worm. The ignorant Republican base will howl for convicting a Democrat and demand a vote. But by putting the counts all in one bill, it's either votes on all or none, so McConnell will be in a tough spot. Quite possible Trump himself demands a vote out of hubris.



Senators will have to explain their votes, especially why none of the long list of sins Trump has committed aren't worthy of conviction while Biden's minor technical violation is.



Worst case is Biden is barred from federal office, and gets a comfortable retirement for his noble sacrifice. Best cases are Trump is convicted and/or Democrats win a large majority in the Senate in the next election.
I'm pretty sure that any court will say that the purpose of impeachment is to remove a current office holder from office. In any case, I don't think you can do a joint impeachment like that. They would end up being voted on separately.

The Democrats would end up looking silly if they did something like that.
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Last edited by davidm; 09-20-2019 at 07:34 PM.
  #266  
Old 09-20-2019, 07:34 PM
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Here's what I legitimately don't get about all this. There are of course some pretty dumb people in Congress, but most of them are going to be of at least average intelligence and all of them have to at least have some level of political savvy to get the position in the first place. You look at Trump; the guy is basically incapable of putting together a coherent sentence on any topic, and on everything besides television ratings, New York real estate and himself ends up sounding like an elementary school aged kid who didn't read the book he's supposed to do his report on. Just from what we publicly know, he's raking in taxpayer money through a network of shady partnerships and LLCs, and he refuses to provide any sort of legitimate financial statements. Based on reporting in the NTY and WSJ, I'd be willing to bet you ten thousand dollars he's committed tax fraud. Now he is credibly alleged to be extorting an ostensible ally to open up an investigation into one of his political rivals.

And yet, the Republican party by and large is still in lockstep behind him all the way. In what universe is this guy not a political liability? Why on earth would you be willing to help him quash investigations into these potentially serious issues? What does he do that Mike Pence wouldn't do, or any generic Republican, for that matter? You don't think that Mike Pence would nominate Federalist Society approved judges or sign tax cuts? Why isn't this stuff the end of his hold on power? I'd think even just for self-interest of everyone involved it should be.
Trump has the overwhelming support of the Republican voting base. Going against Trump is a career ending move for any Republican hoping to hold any kind of public office. Only retiring Republicans can safely turn on him. Of course he is a political liability, but the alternative is career suicide.
  #267  
Old 09-20-2019, 07:35 PM
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Lol, let's not forget...

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So, that NY Times hit-piece on Biden and his son, suggesting untoward activity on the part of Hunter Biden vis-a-vis dealings with Ukranian officials?

This story? https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/01/u...n-ukraine.html

Turns out, the author of the piece just happened, today, to accept the job as the official spokesperson for the President of The Ukraine beating, by her admission, 4,000 candidates for the job.

I'm sure it's all just a big ol' coincidence. Or a part of the application and interviewing process. I can't decide which... someone want to offer me some guidance here?

https://twitter.com/IuliiaMendel/sta...03015857872901
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Correction: Co-Author, along with Ken Vogel.
  #268  
Old 09-20-2019, 07:55 PM
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Here's what I legitimately don't get about all this. ... You look at Trump; the guy is basically incapable of putting together a coherent sentence on any topic, ... Just from what we publicly know, he's raking in taxpayer money through a network of shady partnerships and LLCs, and he refuses to provide any sort of legitimate financial statements. ...

And yet, the Republican party by and large is still in lockstep behind him all the way. In what universe is this guy not a political liability? ...
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Originally Posted by Ulfreida View Post
...I think that if there is one single thing that this president has proved, it is that about a third of the electorate likes nothing better than a stupid cruel petty bully, as long as he acts like he is stupid just the way they are, and cruel just the way they would be if only they had the power.
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Originally Posted by BobLibDem View Post
He has about 1/4 of the population in his grip. ...
And all this is because, as it turns out, nearly a quarter of the population---nearly half of my fellow white people---have been waiting all their lives for a President who's not only a cruel petty bully, but a white supremacist one.

Trump is just a hair off being as openly white-supremacist as the olden-days "heroes" George Wallace and Lester Maddox, and the current Richard Spencer and Steve King. And that hair-off from openness has made all the difference: it permits mainstream right-wing politicians to pretend that what they're embracing and enabling is not white-supremacism.

Trump's base know that they are unlikely---short of an official repudiation of the Constitution and democracy---to ever get another w.s. President again. Thus they've given to Trump the massive political clout conveyed by the fact that nearly half of all voters will move heaven and earth to vote the way Trump wants them to.
  #269  
Old 09-20-2019, 08:14 PM
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Trump will find a way to stall all movement against him until a year from now, when he will announce that purely by his own decision he will retire from the presidency at the end of his term. He'll endorse an alternative Republican, who with Trump's blessing will carry enough of Trump's base to win. If any federal criminal charges are brought against Trump after that point, his successor will pardon him.

Whatever else that can be said about Trump, he's a master at slipping out of trouble. He's like a character from a National Lampoon movie who somehow manages to cheat, lie and con his way through life.
  #270  
Old 09-20-2019, 08:38 PM
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Trump will find a way to stall all movement against him until a year from now, when he will announce that purely by his own decision he will retire from the presidency at the end of his term. He'll endorse an alternative Republican, who with Trump's blessing will carry enough of Trump's base to win. If any federal criminal charges are brought against Trump after that point, his successor will pardon him.
...
I'm skeptical because of the extreme likelihood of state charges (from New York at least) being brought against Trump. No Presidential successor Trump could choose could pardon him from those.

Trump will leave the White House only under the threat of force---or in a hearse. Those are the only two ways.
  #271  
Old 09-20-2019, 10:29 PM
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  #272  
Old 09-21-2019, 01:10 AM
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I do believe he may pull a Palin and quit before his term is up, although I donít believe his anointed successor would be likely to win the election. But it could be a close one like 1976, in that case.

I think he will leave office and never go back to New York or maybe even to any blue state. He may take refuge in deep red states where he can feel relatively confident that the federal government will not want to stir up the hornetís nest by going after him there and potentially triggering a constitutional crisis or even civil war by challenging the state government and its police. He can swap his trademark jets for a giant fleet of tour buses that can roam around freely from Idaho to Alabama, conducting a neverending series of rallies along the way.

He might be tempted to go visit his totalitarian friends in other countries, but I donít think he will want to risk going under federal jurisdiction for the travel.
  #273  
Old 09-21-2019, 07:28 AM
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At this point, everyone left in the Republican party has gone all-in on Trump. They have pushed the stack to the middle of the table and said "let it ride"

If they ever lose, they will lose everything. The entire house of cards will collapse. They know this, so the only thing they know how to do is to keep riding the horse, keep riding, riding, praying to their God all the way. They have to do anything, EVERYthing in the short term to keep this scam going. If it ever collapses, they all go down the gurgle-pipe. Cheat? Sure. Obstruction of Justice? Why not. We're going down a road that ends with arrest and execution of political rivals.
Pretty much this. The demographic tide coming means the they won't be able to gerrymander enough districts and suppress enough votes to retain power for much longer. And when they finally cough up the Senate, they'll be marginalized for decades until the Trumpstink fades.
  #274  
Old 09-21-2019, 08:31 AM
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Here's what I legitimately don't get about all this. There are of course some pretty dumb people in Congress, but most of them are going to be of at least average intelligence and all of them have to at least have some level of political savvy to get the position in the first place. You look at Trump; the guy is basically incapable of putting together a coherent sentence on any topic, and on everything besides television ratings, New York real estate and himself ends up sounding like an elementary school aged kid who didn't read the book he's supposed to do his report on. Just from what we publicly know, he's raking in taxpayer money through a network of shady partnerships and LLCs, and he refuses to provide any sort of legitimate financial statements. Based on reporting in the NTY and WSJ, I'd be willing to bet you ten thousand dollars he's committed tax fraud. Now he is credibly alleged to be extorting an ostensible ally to open up an investigation into one of his political rivals.

And yet, the Republican party by and large is still in lockstep behind him all the way. In what universe is this guy not a political liability? Why on earth would you be willing to help him quash investigations into these potentially serious issues? What does he do that Mike Pence wouldn't do, or any generic Republican, for that matter? You don't think that Mike Pence would nominate Federalist Society approved judges or sign tax cuts? Why isn't this stuff the end of his hold on power? I'd think even just for self-interest of everyone involved it should be.
It's a good point you're making. But I think this shows the depth of the intellecutal collapse of the Republican party. The one thing they love about Trump is how he treats "the other" and the media. He targets minorities, whether muslims or mexicans or whatever group bothers him the most on any specific day. He screams "fake media" when journalists accurately report on his actions. He lies every day, just as casually as most people brush their teeth. His corruption is accompanied by his "lawyers" screaming at TV cameras, just in our face.

And all of this is stuff that Republican voters love about him. It's not a bug, it's a feature of Trumpism. Pence won't or can't express that hatred the way Trump does, and therefore we need to keep Trump.

The biggest story in recent years isn't really Trump himself. It's the story of a political party that gave up on governing, trashed all their supposed principles, and gave in to grifters, hucksters, hustlers, charlatans, and general kookery. The Republican party has completely given in to their worst impulses, and there's no way to turn that around unless and until the time where they are soundly thrashed in elections.
  #275  
Old 09-21-2019, 09:25 AM
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Here's what I legitimately don't get about all this. There are of course some pretty dumb people in Congress, but most of them are going to be of at least average intelligence and all of them have to at least have some level of political savvy to get the position in the first place. You look at Trump; the guy is basically incapable of putting together a coherent sentence on any topic, and on everything besides television ratings, New York real estate and himself ends up sounding like an elementary school aged kid who didn't read the book he's supposed to do his report on. Just from what we publicly know, he's raking in taxpayer money through a network of shady partnerships and LLCs, and he refuses to provide any sort of legitimate financial statements. Based on reporting in the NTY and WSJ, I'd be willing to bet you ten thousand dollars he's committed tax fraud. Now he is credibly alleged to be extorting an ostensible ally to open up an investigation into one of his political rivals.

And yet, the Republican party by and large is still in lockstep behind him all the way. In what universe is this guy not a political liability? Why on earth would you be willing to help him quash investigations into these potentially serious issues? What does he do that Mike Pence wouldn't do, or any generic Republican, for that matter? You don't think that Mike Pence would nominate Federalist Society approved judges or sign tax cuts? Why isn't this stuff the end of his hold on power? I'd think even just for self-interest of everyone involved it should be.
I'll throw in another perspective.

Trump is a party of one. He's essentially a cult leader. Republican voters who merely tolerate Trump for the sake of his agenda are on board with the Republicans in Congress. They all know what they're getting and have agreed to the Faustian bargain. if Trump blows up, those supporters will not blame the Republican establishment.

Regarding his cult-like followers: It's already been proven nearly impossible to break the spell. In the extremely unlikely event that evidence of his betrayal is unearthed that can't be cast as fake news, or machinations of the Deep State or Democrats, they will blame Trump because the Republicans have done everything to demonstrate they're behind him.

If I were an amoral c*nt who was willing to sacrifice my country and constitution in the service of my own power, I would do exactly what the Republicans are doing.

Last edited by KidCharlemagne; 09-21-2019 at 09:26 AM.
  #276  
Old 09-21-2019, 12:10 PM
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This is all true. And I disagree strongly with the people upthread who claim that the American public actually likes Trumpís schtick. He is the most consistently unpopular president in the history of opinion polling. The problem is that the hardcore rank and file who are most likely to vote in primaries do like it.
That "hardcore rank and file" is 90% of republicans.

Trump is more consistently popular among self-described Republicans that Obama was among self-described Democrats. Roll that around in your head for a while.
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  #277  
Old 09-21-2019, 12:44 PM
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Here's what I legitimately don't get about all this. There are of course some pretty dumb people in Congress, but most of them are going to be of at least average intelligence and all of them have to at least have some level of political savvy to get the position in the first place. You look at Trump; the guy is basically incapable of putting together a coherent sentence on any topic, and on everything besides television ratings, New York real estate and himself ends up sounding like an elementary school aged kid who didn't read the book he's supposed to do his report on. Just from what we publicly know, he's raking in taxpayer money through a network of shady partnerships and LLCs, and he refuses to provide any sort of legitimate financial statements. Based on reporting in the NTY and WSJ, I'd be willing to bet you ten thousand dollars he's committed tax fraud. Now he is credibly alleged to be extorting an ostensible ally to open up an investigation into one of his political rivals.

And yet, the Republican party by and large is still in lockstep behind him all the way. In what universe is this guy not a political liability? Why on earth would you be willing to help him quash investigations into these potentially serious issues? What does he do that Mike Pence wouldn't do, or any generic Republican, for that matter? You don't think that Mike Pence would nominate Federalist Society approved judges or sign tax cuts? Why isn't this stuff the end of his hold on power? I'd think even just for self-interest of everyone involved it should be.
The human brain prioritizes the short term calculus over the long term. In the long term? Sure, Trump's a liability; meanwhile, these congressional reps have to win re-election next November, most of them run in districts that strongly back Trump, and there's no reason anyone should expect these voters in these highly-gerrymandered districts to fall out of love with what Trump is selling them, which is guns, God, and intolerance.
  #278  
Old 09-21-2019, 12:50 PM
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I'll throw in another perspective.

Trump is a party of one. He's essentially a cult leader. Republican voters who merely tolerate Trump for the sake of his agenda are on board with the Republicans in Congress. They all know what they're getting and have agreed to the Faustian bargain. if Trump blows up, those supporters will not blame the Republican establishment.

Regarding his cult-like followers: It's already been proven nearly impossible to break the spell. In the extremely unlikely event that evidence of his betrayal is unearthed that can't be cast as fake news, or machinations of the Deep State or Democrats, they will blame Trump because the Republicans have done everything to demonstrate they're behind him.

If I were an amoral c*nt who was willing to sacrifice my country and constitution in the service of my own power, I would do exactly what the Republicans are doing.
You can thank gerrymandering for that. And you can thank bored and disillusioned moderates and progressives who stayed home because they bought the "death panels" lies hook, line, and sinker, or because Obama didn't wave his magic wand and get them a better paying job soon enough. Goes to show how just one midterm election - just one - can have profound consequences. Republicans drew a map that created cult politics. It was "base" politics taken to an extreme.
  #279  
Old 09-21-2019, 02:22 PM
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Our universe.

I think that if there is one single thing that this president has proved, it is that about a third of the electorate likes nothing better than a stupid cruel petty bully, as long as he acts like he is stupid just the way they are, and cruel just the way they would be if only they had the power.
It is quite disheartening.
  #280  
Old 09-21-2019, 04:26 PM
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That "hardcore rank and file" is 90% of republicans.

Trump is more consistently popular among self-described Republicans that Obama was among self-described Democrats. Roll that around in your head for a while.

That statistic is a bit misleading, as Nate Silver has pointed out. Trump is so toxic to anyone who is not a true believer that many people who donít like him have stopped calling themselves Republicans. So thatís 90% of a rump faction.
  #281  
Old 09-21-2019, 06:47 PM
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My bet is he made military assistance to Ukraine contingent on looking for dirt on Joe Biden Jr. Notice the White House suddenly approved the aid package last week? Even if they have a recorded phone call detailing such, the Republicans will just say "oh you know how Trump is, you can't take what he says seriously."
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Itís hard to imagine itís anything that extreme, and if it were shown to be, I think you would see the defections of 10 to 20 Senate Republicans.
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Nah.
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Is this finally the series of events that will end Trumpís presidency?

Default answer: ďNoĒ

For whatever value of ďthisĒ.
What ThelmaLou and JRDelirious said.
  #282  
Old 09-21-2019, 07:33 PM
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Has Betteridge's Law of Headlines been cited yet? I think it applies here.
  #283  
Old 09-21-2019, 07:51 PM
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To paraphrase Edwin Edwards, it may be that the only thing that can sink Chump is to get caught in bed with a dead girl or a live boy.
Itís a great saying, but I honestly donít think either of those things would move the needle.
  #284  
Old 09-22-2019, 04:58 PM
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[sarcasm] Ooooooooh it's double secret probation investigation time! [Sarcasm]

WASHINGTON ó House Speaker Nancy Pelosi on Sunday called on the Trump administration to promptly turn over a secret whistle-blower complaint said to relate to President Trumpís attempts to press Ukraine to investigate his leading Democratic presidential rival, warning that a refusal to do so could force the House to open a new phase in its investigation of him.



https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/22/u...le-blower.html
  #285  
Old 09-22-2019, 05:38 PM
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Heh! I’m going to try that on my son, when he’s a teenager and commits some serious transgression:

“Don’t you make me have to OPEN A NEW PHASE!!”
  #286  
Old 09-22-2019, 05:40 PM
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Chump is now admitting he "mentioned" Biden during the phone call, and Mitt Romney is saying it's an impeachable offense if the Orange Cheez Doodle did exert any pressure.
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  #287  
Old 09-22-2019, 05:49 PM
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Chump is now admitting he "mentioned" Biden during the phone call, and Mitt Romney is saying it's an impeachable offense if the Orange Cheez Doodle did exert any pressure.
Which, given how cautious Romney is, is actually news.

Maybe.

If he doesn't back away from it in his next interview.
  #288  
Old 09-22-2019, 05:52 PM
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Chump is now admitting he "mentioned" Biden during the phone call, and Mitt Romney is saying it's an impeachable offense if the Orange Cheez Doodle did exert any pressure.
If I thought Romney had a spine, I would be impressed by this.
  #289  
Old 09-22-2019, 08:06 PM
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Itís a great saying, but I honestly donít think either of those things would move the needle.
If he was found with a live boy, Republicans would compare him to the ancient Greeks and would find every obscure liberal who defended any Catholic priest accused of sexual abuse.

If he was found with a dead girl, they'd bring up Ted Kennedy.
  #290  
Old 09-22-2019, 09:24 PM
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Plus Áa change, plus c'est la mÍme chose ...

Or as Lily Tomlin put it, "No matter how cynical you get ... it's impossible to keep up."
  #291  
Old 09-23-2019, 08:50 AM
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I think about that strip from time to time. The difference is, if Nixon had knocked over a bank, he'd have resigned almost immediately in the face of certain impeachment and removal. Just like he did when the 'smoking gun' tape was released, unequivocally proving that he'd obstructed justice.

The problem now is that Trump keeps doing the equivalent of knocking over banks, and the Democrats don't do anything about it. And given that, it's damned hard to get mad at the Republicans.
  #292  
Old 09-23-2019, 08:58 AM
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Perhaps some House Dems think that impeachment is yet another dish that is best served cold. And well past its "Best Before" date.
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  #293  
Old 09-23-2019, 09:19 AM
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Is there any question as to whether presidents 1-44 would have been forced out of office had they done half the stuff that DT has done? Can you imagine the outrage if Obama had extorted a foreign government to manufacture dirt about Mitt Romney?

I think Pelosi has to say "yes we are starting impeachment investigations right now". I think they know the whistleblower's identity and I would bet that they (two people who resigned very soon after this all went down) would be quite willing to come in and give public testimony. Republicans are afraid to squeeze the boil because it would hurt. But this pus must be drained.
  #294  
Old 09-23-2019, 10:27 AM
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That "hardcore rank and file" is 90% of republicans.

Trump is more consistently popular among self-described Republicans that Obama was among self-described Democrats. Roll that around in your head for a while.
I don't see that as really surprising.

Sure, the guy himself is a clown. But under him - with a heathy assist from his turtle sidekick, conservatives have been getting all manner of policy they seem to want. Removal of regulations on industry and protecting the environment, the rich are getting richer, demonization of liberal causes - and don't EVER underestimate the importance of hundreds of young, far right federal judges.

Hell, I REALLY liked Obama - but I regret that he did not get more of a liberal agenda enacted. So whaddya prefer? Someone you like and respect, or someone who gets done what you want done?
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  #295  
Old 09-23-2019, 10:39 AM
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I don't see that as really surprising.

Sure, the guy himself is a clown. But under him - with a heathy assist from his turtle sidekick, conservatives have been getting all manner of policy they seem to want. Removal of regulations on industry and protecting the environment, the rich are getting richer, demonization of liberal causes - and don't EVER underestimate the importance of hundreds of young, far right federal judges.
Other than demonization of liberal causes, I think you're talking about stuff that keeps him popular with Republicans who are either rich or in industry or in politics, or are political junkies like us.

Owning the libs, and beating up on all the people that rank-and-file Republicans want him to beat up on, that's what keeps his popularity up among conservatives who don't follow politics closely.
  #296  
Old 09-23-2019, 02:02 PM
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The problem now is that Trump keeps doing the equivalent of knocking over banks, and the Democrats don't do anything about it. And given that, it's damned hard to get mad at the Republicans.
That's absurd.

The democrats aren't impeaching because they know even if they prove every crime anyone has ever thought Trump has committed, the Senate won't convict anyway. And they feel like it's a bad move politically to have a failed impeachment attempt.

I think they're wrong and that they need to do this anyway, but your conclusion of it being "hard to get mad at Republicans" for being the reason that Trump can never come to justice is inexplicable and bizarre.

How in the world do Republicans look better, to you, because they've created an environment so toxic and so self serving that they wouldn't carry out their duty no matter what?
  #297  
Old 09-23-2019, 02:36 PM
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That's absurd.

The democrats aren't impeaching because they know even if they prove every crime anyone has ever thought Trump has committed, the Senate won't convict anyway. And they feel like it's a bad move politically to have a failed impeachment attempt.

I think they're wrong and that they need to do this anyway, but your conclusion of it being "hard to get mad at Republicans" for being the reason that Trump can never come to justice is inexplicable and bizarre.

How in the world do Republicans look better, to you, because they've created an environment so toxic and so self serving that they wouldn't carry out their duty no matter what?
"...the Senate won't convict..."

This is a given. Someone who is FOR impeachment please explain to my why impeachment is a good idea RIGHT NOW if "the Senate won't convict." Just a gesture? A publicity stunt? Just so the Dems can be seen to be "doing something"? A rerun of the Mueller Hearings that were supposed to bring down Former President Trump*?

Seriously, what is to be gained by a futile, useless, empty attempt at impeachment? Not a rhetorical question.
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  #298  
Old 09-23-2019, 02:42 PM
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It's the only tool they have, and it's the right thing to do. Lots of examples in the world of doing the right thing, even if the end result isn't the best end result. Should a cop only arrest criminals who are certain to be convicted?
  #299  
Old 09-23-2019, 02:57 PM
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"...the Senate won't convict..."

This is a given. Someone who is FOR impeachment please explain to my why impeachment is a good idea RIGHT NOW if "the Senate won't convict." Just a gesture? A publicity stunt? Just so the Dems can be seen to be "doing something"? A rerun of the Mueller Hearings that were supposed to bring down Former President Trump*?

Seriously, what is to be gained by a futile, useless, empty attempt at impeachment? Not a rhetorical question.
DISCLOSURE: Anti-Trump registered Democrat whose views re: impeachment have tracked pretty solidly with Speaker Pelosi's thus far; to wit, "it's seemed like a losing battle up until the past 10 days or so, but things might be changing." I think I can answer the question nonetheless.

A) History/Precedent. If this isn't impeachable, then nothing ever will be -- speaking in terms of pragmatic political machination. 100 years from now, some future official caught doing <something very bad, whatever that is> can make the case "Hey, even Trump never got impeached, so why are you picking on me? Very unfair. Sad!"

B) Current political ramifications. At present, I remain optimistic that all the voters who stayed away from the polls in droves in 2016 -- thinking "there's no way Trump wins, why should I go stand in line?" -- are determined to vote Trump out. The 2018 midterms were a good indication of how fired-up the Resistance is, IMHO. But if the Dems don't step up to the plate for this, those voters may well become disheartened and/or disgusted.

C) 2020 ramifications, pending future events. As noted previously, much of the electorate didn't really grasp the 448(?) pages of the Mueller Report, and the Barr Inoculation seems to have done its job in the weeks prior to the public release. But 13 months of hearings, investigations, testimony, etc., might be the best way to both fire up the Resistance and peel off some disillusioned Trump 2016 voters. The key will be to make sure that the investigation remains open, and the Senate hasn't been given the opportunity to exonerate Trump, until after the election. So yes, let's move ahead with "all deliberate speed," I say.

(As an aside, I remain optimistic about 2020 for three reasons that don't get much airtime. One, the 2016 "we got this, why bother?" complacency is no longer operative. Two, there must be some substantial fraction of 2016 Trump voters who said "Hey, give him a shot, who knows?" who are now appalled by what he's done. And three, no matter who the Dems nominate, s/he certainly won't have three decades of Repugnican smears absorbed into the subconscious of the electorate the way Hillary did.)
  #300  
Old 09-23-2019, 03:02 PM
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... But if the Dems don't step up to the plate for this, those voters may well become disheartened and/or disgusted.
...
I think this point should not be overlooked.
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