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  #201  
Old 09-14-2019, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Rick Kitchen View Post
Which Democrat has called for open borders?
Buttegieg, Castro, Gillibrand, Harris, Sanders, Warren, Williamson, and Yang want to abolish ICE and decriminalize entry.

That is, funtionally, open borders.
  #202  
Old 09-14-2019, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Johanna View Post
Russia's candidate

It says "Rep. Tulsi Gabbard of Hawaii[...] has become a favorite of the sites Moscow used when it interfered in 2016." Sputnik and RT giving her more time than anyone else.

And "The language used to laud Gabbard is reminiscent of Russian media promotion of Jill Stein, the U.S. Green Party candidate for president in 2012 and 2016. Stein received favorable coverage from the same outlets and also benefited from Russian troll accounts."
So, shall we do the opposite of what these sites want?

Last edited by sps49sd; 09-14-2019 at 06:26 PM.
  #203  
Old 09-14-2019, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by sps49sd View Post
Buttegieg, Castro, Gillibrand, Harris, Sanders, Warren, Williamson, and Yang want to abolish ICE and decriminalize entry.

That is, funtionally, open borders.
You have to get this: no, it's not. Decriminalizing border crossings doesn't mean you can't hold and deport people. ICE is 16 years old, did you have open borders 17 years ago?
  #204  
Old 09-14-2019, 09:18 PM
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You have to get this: no, it's not. Decriminalizing border crossings doesn't mean you can't hold and deport people. ICE is 16 years old, did you have open borders 17 years ago?
No, we did not have open borders 17 years ago. Before that, INS served the relevant function.
  #205  
Old 09-14-2019, 09:21 PM
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Originally Posted by sps49sd View Post
Buttegieg, Castro, Gillibrand, Harris, Sanders, Warren, Williamson, and Yang want to abolish ICE and decriminalize entry.

That is, funtionally, open borders.
Hey, thanks for proving my point.
  #206  
Old 09-14-2019, 09:44 PM
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Rick Kitchen:
Which Democrat has called for open borders?

E-Dub:
None of them. But Republicans will come along soon to misstate their positions to make it appear that they have, or that that's what they really want, and people will fall for it.

sps49sd:
Buttegieg, Castro, Gillibrand, Harris, Sanders, Warren, Williamson, and Yang want to abolish ICE and decriminalize entry.

That is, funtionally, open borders.

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Hey, thanks for proving my point.
Hey, thanks for reminding me that nobody wants to confiscate firearms because they don't use the exact quote.
  #207  
Old 09-14-2019, 11:13 PM
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Rick Kitchen:Hey, thanks for reminding me that nobody wants to confiscate firearms because they don't use the exact quote.
And thanks for refuting an argument that I never made.
  #208  
Old 09-14-2019, 11:29 PM
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And thanks for refuting an argument that I never made.
You have made no arguments, is mostly why.

And I did not say you reminded me on purpose, but the things we want without admitting it' is true for a few issues this year.
  #209  
Old 09-15-2019, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by sps49sd View Post
Buttegieg, Castro, Gillibrand, Harris, Sanders, Warren, Williamson, and Yang want to abolish ICE and decriminalize entry.

That is, funtionally, open borders.
No. Not, it isn't.
There were borders before ICE.
  #210  
Old 09-15-2019, 02:11 PM
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No. Not, it isn't.
There were borders before ICE.
Post 204:
"No, we did not have open borders 17 years ago. Before that, INS served the relevant function."

Do you not remember when Customs and the INS were combined to form ICE?
  #211  
Old 09-15-2019, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by sps49sd View Post
Post 204:
"No, we did not have open borders 17 years ago. Before that, INS served the relevant function."

Do you not remember when Customs and the INS were combined to form ICE?
If Customs and INS were separated out again, that would be abolishing ICE and leave the US with a border force. Why insist on going with the stupidest interpretation that people are actually calling for nobody to man the border?
  #212  
Old 09-15-2019, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by sps49sd View Post
Post 204:
"No, we did not have open borders 17 years ago. Before that, INS served the relevant function."

Do you not remember when Customs and the INS were combined to form ICE?
And ICE was militarized.
  #213  
Old 09-15-2019, 05:11 PM
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If Customs and INS were separated out again, that would be abolishing ICE and leave the US with a border force. Why insist on going with the stupidest interpretation that people are actually calling for nobody to man the border?
Bullshit. Nobody advocating "Abolish ICE" means 'let's rename it and move it and keep the same functions'.

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And ICE was militarized.
If they were, what does that have to do with anything?
  #214  
Old 09-15-2019, 05:32 PM
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Bullshit. Nobody advocating "Abolish ICE" means 'let's rename it and move it and keep the same functions'.
Of course it wouldn't keep the same functions but those jobs would still be getting done. Splitting the functions is a big part of the point. But that doesn't mean, in any way shape or form, that people are arguing for zero personnel handling deportations and border stops.

And if "ban ICE" really means open borders, it also logically means we also banned customs enforcement, right? If ICE is banned, do you expect chinese knockoff products to freely flow through our ports?

Last edited by CarnalK; 09-15-2019 at 05:35 PM.
  #215  
Old 09-15-2019, 05:35 PM
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"Abolish ICE" has come about because of the perception that ICE culture has twisted it into a militant, white supremacist organization. The functions of it could be shifted to an organization without such a harmful organizational culture.
  #216  
Old 09-15-2019, 05:46 PM
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sps49sd:
Bullshit. Nobody advocating "Abolish ICE" means 'let's rename it and move it and keep the same functions'.
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Originally Posted by CarnalK View Post
Of course it wouldn't keep the same functions but those jobs would still be getting done. Splitting the functions is a big part of the point. But that doesn't mean, in any way shape or form, that people are arguing for zero personnel handling deportations and border stops.
Oh, yes they are.

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Originally Posted by CarnalK View Post
And if "ban ICE" really means open borders, it also logically means we also banned customs enforcement, right? If ICE is banned, do you expect chinese knockoff products to freely flow through our ports?
It is part of it
yes
probably but nobody is running on that plank.

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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
"Abolish ICE" has come about because of the perception that ICE culture has twisted it into a militant, white supremacist organization.
The same is said about police departments, e.g. Baltimore PD. Perception does not equal reality.

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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
The functions of it could be shifted to an organization without such a harmful organizational culture.
The accusations are based on the tasks they perform. Shifting the task elsewhere won't change that.

Last edited by sps49sd; 09-15-2019 at 05:47 PM.
  #217  
Old 09-15-2019, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by sps49sd View Post
The same is said about police departments, e.g. Baltimore PD. Perception does not equal reality.

The accusations are based on the tasks they perform. Shifting the task elsewhere won't change that.
Says you. I'm unconvinced by the cite-free assertions of a random internet person.

I'm not trying to convince you that ICE should be abolished. I'm explaining to you why many Democrats think it should. If the characterization of the organization is accurate, then that's a damn good reason to abolish it.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 09-15-2019 at 05:51 PM.
  #218  
Old 09-15-2019, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by sps49sd View Post
Buttegieg, Castro, Gillibrand, Harris, Sanders, Warren, Williamson, and Yang want to abolish ICE and decriminalize entry.

That is, funtionally, open borders.
Gabbard pointing that out is all a Russian conspiracy and sheís obviously the latest Russian candidate. Funny thing is the same folks who can hear a manifesto encoded in a so-called dog whistle only they can hear donít see anything they donít want to see from the left.
  #219  
Old 09-15-2019, 06:37 PM
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Gabbard pointing that out is all a Russian conspiracy and sheís obviously the latest Russian candidate. Funny thing is the same folks who can hear a manifesto encoded in a so-called dog whistle only they can hear donít see anything they donít want to see from the left.
I don't know if she is or isn't, but I do know that nothing would please Putin more than having pawns on both sides of the board. A smart man hedges his bets and he is nothing if not smart.
  #220  
Old 09-16-2019, 01:38 AM
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Says you. I'm unconvinced by the cite-free assertions of a random internet person.

I'm not trying to convince you that ICE should be abolished. I'm explaining to you why many Democrats think it should. If the characterization of the organization is accurate, then that's a damn good reason to abolish it.
I apologize, I did not see the cites you provided supporting your initial assertion that ICE is perceived as "a militant, white supremacist organization", you random internet person who is normally more thorough and precise here.

Last edited by sps49sd; 09-16-2019 at 01:39 AM.
  #221  
Old 09-16-2019, 03:46 AM
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I apologize, I did not see the cites you provided supporting your initial assertion that ICE is perceived as "a militant, white supremacist organization", you random internet person who is normally more thorough and precise here.
Here you go:

https://americasvoice.org/blog/abolish-ice/

https://actionnetwork.org/petitions/abolish-ice
  #222  
Old 09-16-2019, 11:03 AM
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Russia's candidate

It says "Rep. Tulsi Gabbard of Hawaii[...] has become a favorite of the sites Moscow used when it interfered in 2016." Sputnik and RT giving her more time than anyone else.

And "The language used to laud Gabbard is reminiscent of Russian media promotion of Jill Stein, the U.S. Green Party candidate for president in 2012 and 2016. Stein received favorable coverage from the same outlets and also benefited from Russian troll accounts."
No surprise that Russians favor candidates that do not want to antagonize them dangerously and needlessly. It is only natural that Russia would favor a more peaceful US president.

The US NGOs promote all kinds of candidates around the world in various elections. Should the citizens of those countries discount those candidates?
  #223  
Old 09-16-2019, 11:41 AM
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I call this the RT three-step:

1. Russia never influenced the 2016 elections
2. Ok they did but they didn't spend much money
3. Of course they should influence the 2020 election
  #224  
Old 09-16-2019, 01:13 PM
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I call this the RT three-step:

1. Russia never influenced the 2016 elections
2. Ok they did but they didn't spend much money
3. Of course they should influence the 2020 election
1) Russian influence amounted to a hill of beans.
2) The hill of beans was cheap.
3) The creation of the hill of beans makes sense.

There is nothing contradictory, bud.
  #225  
Old 09-16-2019, 02:22 PM
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You've got a bit of Putin's cum on your chin there; let me get you a tissue.
  #226  
Old 09-16-2019, 03:32 PM
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Of course Russia doesn't want a candidate who's belligerent to Russia. They want a candidate who's belligerent to everyone else in the world except for Russia. Like Trump, or Gabbard.
  #227  
Old 09-16-2019, 03:51 PM
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You've got a bit of Putin's cum on your chin there; let me get you a tissue.
Letís not bring your sordid fantasies into the discussion.
  #228  
Old 09-16-2019, 03:53 PM
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Of course Russia doesn't want a candidate who's belligerent to Russia. They want a candidate who's belligerent to everyone else in the world except for Russia. Like Trump, or Gabbard.
Yes the next step up from the rubber/glue comeback.

Last edited by WillFarnaby; 09-16-2019 at 03:55 PM.
  #229  
Old 09-16-2019, 04:05 PM
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You've got a bit of Putin's cum on your chin there; let me get you a tissue.
This sort of offensive sexual reference is out of line.

This is a Warning to refrain from doing it again.

[ /Moderating ]
  #230  
Old 09-16-2019, 04:06 PM
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Letís not bring your sordid fantasies into the discussion.
This is one step short of the previously issued Warning. Knock it off.

[ /Moderating ]
  #231  
Old 10-18-2019, 01:17 PM
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Hillary calls Tulsi Gabbard (not naming her but implying it's her) a Russian plant being groomed to run as a third party candidate to disrupt the election.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/hillar...arty-candidate
  #232  
Old 10-18-2019, 01:43 PM
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The US NGOs promote all kinds of candidates around the world in various elections. Should the citizens of those countries discount those candidates?
If they don't think those US NGOs have their best interests in mind, wouldn't it be really stupid not to? Of course, this assumes an equivalency between NGOs and government owned media outlets that is only sometimes true.
  #233  
Old 10-18-2019, 04:13 PM
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Hillary calls Tulsi Gabbard (not naming her but implying it's her) a Russian plant being groomed to run as a third party candidate to disrupt the election.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/hillar...arty-candidate
Even if Gabbard isn't a plant, the possibility of her or someone else running a third party campaign is relatively high.
  #234  
Old 10-18-2019, 05:45 PM
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Yup, I wouldn't be surprised that her mentor/spiritual advisor Chris Butler was using her as a proxy.

Investigative Series on the Science of Identity Sect and Tulsi Gabbard
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  #235  
Old 10-18-2019, 07:56 PM
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Running for president has become a way to start a career - winning doesn't matter. I mean, that's what Jill Stein does, right? She's a professional activist. That would explain the record number of candidates. I wouldn't be surprised if we have 50 candidates in 2024.
  #236  
Old 10-18-2019, 08:16 PM
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Running for president has become a way to start a career - winning doesn't matter. I mean, that's what Jill Stein does, right? She's a professional activist. That would explain the record number of candidates. I wouldn't be surprised if we have 50 candidates in 2024.
I think that in the modern era Jesse Jackson started this. There have been plenty of such candidates on both sides, including that diminutive GOP preacher whose name escapes me.

It strikes that Gabbard could blunt this attack by pledging NOT to run as a third party candidate. If she does so pledge, well and good. IF she doesn't, well, draw your own conclusions.

Last edited by E-DUB; 10-18-2019 at 08:19 PM.
  #237  
Old 10-18-2019, 09:31 PM
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I think that in the modern era Jesse Jackson started this. There have been plenty of such candidates on both sides, including that diminutive GOP preacher whose name escapes me.

It strikes that Gabbard could blunt this attack by pledging NOT to run as a third party candidate. If she does so pledge, well and good. IF she doesn't, well, draw your own conclusions.
Seems like the last thing Hillary wants to do (or Dems want her to do) is to throw down the gauntlet.
  #238  
Old 10-18-2019, 09:42 PM
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I think that in the modern era Jesse Jackson started this.
I get your point, but Jackson is a poor example. In '84 and '88 he was very much a legitimate contender, winning numerous primaries and caucuses. He was not a 2% fringe candidate.
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  #239  
Old 10-18-2019, 09:54 PM
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Gabbard says the primary is between her and Hillary. She has a high opinion of herself.
https://thehill.com/homenews/campaig...ongers-clinton
  #240  
Old 10-18-2019, 10:25 PM
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Sanders/Gabbard will run 3rd party. You read it here first.
  #241  
Old 10-19-2019, 12:23 AM
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Tulsi Gabbard on Twiiter:

"Great! Thank you @HillaryClinton. You, the queen of warmongers, embodiment of corruption, and personification of the rot that has sickened the Democratic Party for so long, have finally come out from behind the curtain."

Is she right?
  #242  
Old 10-19-2019, 01:03 AM
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Tulsi Gabbard on Twiiter:

"Great! Thank you @HillaryClinton. You, the queen of warmongers, embodiment of corruption, and personification of the rot that has sickened the Democratic Party for so long, have finally come out from behind the curtain."

Is she right?
Yes. Hillaryís a Wall Street reptile who never met a war she didnít like. She blew possibly the easiest electoral match up imaginable and now sheís trying to fuck up 2020 by making Democrats look like a bunch of quivering paranoiacs who see Putin lurking behind every curtain. She needs to fuck off.

I think Tulsiís response is great.
  #243  
Old 10-19-2019, 01:33 AM
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I think that in the modern era Jesse Jackson started this. There have been plenty of such candidates on both sides, including that diminutive GOP preacher whose name escapes me.

It strikes that Gabbard could blunt this attack by pledging NOT to run as a third party candidate. If she does so pledge, well and good. IF she doesn't, well, draw your own conclusions.
Based purely off of old Eddie Murphy stand-up comedy bits (for memory), did Jackson predate Harold Washington?
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  #244  
Old 10-19-2019, 06:29 AM
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Jesse Jackson is an odd choice. He never once threatened a 3rd party run. He did lead Walter Mondale and Mike Dukakis around by the nose but he never threatened a 3rd party spoiler run, not that Mondale or Dukakis really had a chance.

Nader is really the first modern day deliberate spoiler 3rd party spoiler candidate. He ran specifically to punish the Democratic Party for not being pure enough. Perot may have been loony but I don’t think he was trying to play spoiler, 1992 seemed like a time that the USA was in a period of three consecutive strong Republican wins and doubts of any Democrat could win again. The other third party candidates were basically just white supremacy protest votes. I admit I haven’t studied the 1980 election in detail so I don’t really know what the point of the Anderson campaign was.
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  #245  
Old 10-19-2019, 06:34 AM
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Yes. Hillaryís a Wall Street reptile who never met a war she didnít like. She blew possibly the easiest electoral match up imaginable and now sheís trying to fuck up 2020 by making Democrats look like a bunch of quivering paranoiacs who see Putin lurking behind every curtain. She needs to fuck off.

I think Tulsiís response is great.
I agree.. I'm no fan of Tulsi, but I can't fucking stand Hillary.. I'm a Bernie supporter.

Maybe Hillary deep down doesn't want a Democrat to win. She would hate to be the only one to lose to Trump, and then having someone else beat him would add salt to her wound (if she had a soul)
  #246  
Old 10-19-2019, 07:14 AM
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Jesse Jackson is an odd choice. He never once threatened a 3rd party run. He did lead Walter Mondale and Mike Dukakis around by the nose but he never threatened a 3rd party spoiler run, not that Mondale or Dukakis really had a chance.

Nader is really the first modern day deliberate spoiler 3rd party spoiler candidate. He ran specifically to punish the Democratic Party for not being pure enough. Perot may have been loony but I donít think he was trying to play spoiler, 1992 seemed like a time that the USA was in a period of three consecutive strong Republican wins and doubts of any Democrat could win again. The other third party candidates were basically just white supremacy protest votes. I admit I havenít studied the 1980 election in detail so I donít really know what the point of the Anderson campaign was.
Yeah, it's Nader who ran narcissistic 3rd party campaigns. Jill Stein is the reigning champion. But I could absolutely see Andrew Yang, Tom Steyer, Gabbard, and Bernie going rogue. Any one of them would be a danger to a Dem nominee. More than one and you can gift wrap the presidency to Trump and say 'game over' for the country.
  #247  
Old 10-19-2019, 08:34 AM
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Hillary calls Tulsi Gabbard (not naming her but implying it's her) a Russian plant being groomed to run as a third party candidate to disrupt the election.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/hillar...arty-candidate
Clinton is 100% correct, and that makes her an absolute fool for saying it.

Tulsi looks like she's running the Trump 2016 playbook. She's been pushing Russian and Trump talking points for a while now. Expect to see her attacking the DNC as rigged, expect her to attack the fake media.

The biggest leg of that stool is anti-Hillary sentiment. In 2016 it was a big factor in boosting Republican turnout and depressing Democrat turnout. She doesn't even have to run in 2020 - as long as she keeps running her mouth, she's a gift that keeps on giving for Gabbard and the Republicans.
  #248  
Old 10-19-2019, 08:49 AM
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Tulsi Gabbard on Twiiter:

"Great! Thank you @HillaryClinton. You, the queen of warmongers, embodiment of corruption, and personification of the rot that has sickened the Democratic Party for so long, have finally come out from behind the curtain."

Is she right?
Clinton? Yeah HRC is probably right. The issue isnít if Gabbard is knowingly being used to Russian ends but if she is being used by them, the useful idiot who can be manipulated easily and cheaply supported by their bot farms and interference infrastructure.

Liking Clinton or not is quite immaterial to whether or not that is true. HRC could be evil incarnate or Mother Therese. Donít matter.

Why didnít Gabbard just state no she wonít run third party?
  #249  
Old 10-19-2019, 08:57 AM
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If Gabbard runs third party, there's no stopping it. But Hillary just might have made her a lot more popular - certainly more visible.
  #250  
Old 10-19-2019, 09:44 AM
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Why didnít Gabbard just state no she wonít run third party?
Gabbard yesterday:
Quote:
Q: "Would you ever consider running as a third-party candidate?"

Gabbard: "No. I've said that many times before. I've been very clear. I will not be leaving the Democratic Party. I will not be running as an independent or a third-party candidate."
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