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  #251  
Old 07-28-2019, 07:48 PM
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What did the anti-liberal media do?
During the primaries? I can’t remember to be honest. Probably non stop attacks on Hillary.
  #252  
Old 07-28-2019, 08:20 PM
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During the primaries? I can’t remember to be honest. Probably non stop attacks on Hillary.
Lol. Well then, why should I trust your memory of the pro-liberal media? I have a strong feeling you don't follow liberal media, you follow reports on it.

Last edited by CarnalK; 07-28-2019 at 08:21 PM.
  #253  
Old 07-28-2019, 08:23 PM
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Lol. Well then, why should I trust your memory of the pro-liberal media? I have a strong feeling you don't follow liberal media, you follow reports on it.
I read the NYT. I listen to NPR. I used to watch MSNBC.
  #254  
Old 07-28-2019, 11:02 PM
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Here is a good article on wanting too much purity in a Dem candidate

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opini...ket/ar-AAEWOe0

Love it, except for the two “terrible person” paragraphs.
  #255  
Old 07-28-2019, 11:22 PM
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Here is a good article on wanting too much purity in a Dem candidate

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opini...ket/ar-AAEWOe0
Thanks for posting the link! I agree it is spot on about how the purity police will help reelect DJT if they get their way. I found both of these to be particularly spot on:

Quote:
The argument about whether Trump is impeachable is the wrong argument. Mueller settled that. We know Trump did things worthy of impeachment. That is not the question we should be asking. The question is: Should he be impeached?

The progressive Puritans think we must honor the Constitution and go for it because it’s the right thing to do.
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The attempt to impeach Trump is one of the rare cases in which something obviously justified is obviously stupid.
  #256  
Old 07-29-2019, 02:03 AM
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I read the NYT. I listen to NPR. I used to watch MSNBC.
Ok, what anti-liberal media do you read?
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Old 07-29-2019, 06:13 AM
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CNN had Trump on just about nightly in 2016 because they found he was good for ratings. They even admitted they overdid the coverage of him.
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Old 07-29-2019, 07:21 AM
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It was impossible not to cover Trump - he was the "Man Bites Dog" headliner candidate. He's even more so now that he has a much larger stage and louder microphone, which is one of the challenges facing his challengers and critics.
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Old 07-29-2019, 08:28 AM
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yes they had to cover Trump. But not as much as they did when he was running.
  #260  
Old 07-29-2019, 11:11 AM
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Ok, what anti-liberal media do you read?
On a regular basis? None really. I listen to a bit of talk radio once or twice a month. Maybe some Thomas Sowell stuff. Watch a tiny bit of fox. Probably less than 2 hrs a month of that. Why do you ask?
  #261  
Old 07-29-2019, 12:33 PM
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On a regular basis? None really. I listen to a bit of talk radio once or twice a month. Maybe some Thomas Sowell stuff. Watch a tiny bit of fox. Probably less than 2 hrs a month of that. Why do you ask?
Just curious. You seem really clued in on how the pro-liberal media acts and no clue how the anti-liberal media acts but you're such a anti-liberal guy. Kinda odd.
  #262  
Old 07-29-2019, 12:50 PM
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The Republican vote is not entirely composed of White Supremacists.
At this point, it's overwhelmingly composed of persons who may not be white supremacists themselves, but are willing to tolerate and condone white supremacy if that's part and parcel of the Republican package.
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Old 07-29-2019, 01:04 PM
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At this point, it's overwhelmingly composed of persons who may not be white supremacists themselves, but are willing to tolerate and condone white supremacy if that's part and parcel of the Republican package.
Well, that's nice because it is exactly my point. There are different groups in the much less diverse Republican coalition that tolerate each other atm.

Last edited by CarnalK; 07-29-2019 at 01:05 PM.
  #264  
Old 07-29-2019, 01:05 PM
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Just curious. You seem really clued in on how the pro-liberal media acts and no clue how the anti-liberal media acts but you're such a anti-liberal guy. Kinda odd.
I spend most of my political reading/watching time on opposing view points. I do not watch or read politics to reinforce what I already think. I want something that will challenge what I already believe and may cause me to change my mind.
  #265  
Old 07-29-2019, 01:16 PM
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I spend most of my political reading/watching time on opposing view points. I do not watch or read politics to reinforce what I already think. I want something that will challenge what I already believe and may cause me to change my mind.
Well, it doesn't show.
  #266  
Old 07-29-2019, 02:18 PM
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Well, that's nice because it is exactly my point. There are different groups in the much less diverse Republican coalition that tolerate each other atm.
Well yeah. If they can all condone and tolerate racism, where exactly is this wedge opportunity? If Jim's openly racist, and Joe isn't but he doesn't have a problem with Jim's racism, where's the wedge? Do you think you're going to drive a wedge between Republicans with lesser differences, say between Bob the fundie and Bill the non-religious Chamber of Commerce type? Or is there some wedge issue that's about something even more potent than racism?

By and large, business and religion and racism don't contradict, and when they do in some way, one side or the other gives fairly quickly. As an example, evangelical Christians used to welcome refugees: the Bible says to welcome foreigners, for we were foreigners in Egypt. But once Trump ran against the infestation from south of the border, they became the biggest supporters of Trump's border policies. Kids in cages? Goddamn lawbreakers, got what was coming to them.

You're not going to find wedges within the GOP coalition. The wedge is between the Trump's hardcore 40% and everyone else.
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Nah, that won't work either. They don't care if you get your cash out of a different bank's machine than they do.
  #267  
Old 07-30-2019, 07:28 AM
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Here's an example of the Democratic party potentially becoming a circular firing squad.

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaig...representation

Quote:
The executive director of the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee (DCCC) resigned abruptly on Monday amid members’ complaints that the committee’s upper echelons lacked diversity.
To be clear, I'm not saying that critics didn't have legitimate grievances or that they're wrong. But it illustrates that in what is becoming an increasingly hyper-racial era in politics, the Democratic party and progressives generally may fail to agree on how to respond. Moreover, the danger is that tribal elders may be viewed as out of touch and not taking seriously the dangers of this time, while the leadership struggles to coordinate and find unifying themes. This is exactly how polarization tactics work, and it's how Donald Trump can win re-election.

This may also be why Joe Biden is proving to be resilient despite his apparent weaknesses, which were exposed in the first debate. Hopefully voters of all stripe understand that Democrats don't need the perfect candidate or the candidate with a spotless record; they just need someone voters can hold up as a contrast to Trump's nightmarish regime. At least I hope that we can be that pragmatic, because if we can't, four more years would be more than enough time for Trump and the Republicans to destroy an America that is based on the values of inclusion and equality.
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Old 07-30-2019, 07:49 AM
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To add one more thought, I hope tomorrow night's debate doesn't become a "You're a racist" shit show. Kamala Harris popped Biden good in the last debate, and it's entirely possible she needn't say a word, as she'll be joined by Julian Castro and Cory Booker, both of whom have brought identity politics into the forum already. And then there's New York woke tough guy Bill De Blasio to boot. If that's what happens, it won't be just Biden who slips in the polls, but the entire Democratic party. Everyone knows Biden's not a racist and now is not the time to be talking about how woke the party is; everyone agrees Trump's racism is sick and must stop, and the way to stop it is to unify and get his ass out of office.
  #269  
Old 07-30-2019, 08:43 AM
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Very interesting piece from political scientist Zach Goldberg:

https://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-new...-white-saviors
Quote:
Remarkably, white liberals were the only subgroup exhibiting a pro-outgroup bias—meaning white liberals were more favorable toward nonwhites and are the only group to show this preference for group other than their own. Indeed, on average, white liberals rated ethnic and racial minority groups 13 points (or half a standard deviation) warmer than whites. As is depicted in the graph below, this disparity in feelings of warmth toward ingroup vs. outgroup is even more pronounced among whites who consider themselves “very liberal” where it widens to just under 20 points. Notably, while white liberals have consistently evinced weaker pro-ingroup biases than conservatives across time, the emergence and growth of a pro-outgroup bias is actually a very recent, and unprecedented, phenomenon.

ETA: It’s debatable whether this is admirable in an abstract or substantive sense (I vote “nay”), but it is politically hobbling for Democrats, I guarantee you that much.

Last edited by SlackerInc; 07-30-2019 at 08:46 AM.
  #270  
Old 07-30-2019, 09:08 AM
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Very interesting piece from political scientist Zach Goldberg:

https://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-new...-white-saviors



ETA: It’s debatable whether this is admirable in an abstract or substantive sense (I vote “nay”), but it is politically hobbling for Democrats, I guarantee you that much.
Self-hating whites are not new.
  #271  
Old 07-30-2019, 09:14 AM
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Self-hating whites are not new.
Neither are whites who characterize white people who prefer diverse groups as "self-hating", unfortunately.
  #272  
Old 07-30-2019, 09:18 AM
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Neither are whites who characterize white people who prefer diverse groups as "self-hating", unfortunately.
Yes, I've heard your talking points many times. You are free to shoulder all the white guilt that you can enjoy, and it is clear you enjoy it a lot. I decline and your disapproval of me I will, somehow, endure.
  #273  
Old 07-30-2019, 09:26 AM
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Yes, I've heard your talking points many times. You are free to shoulder all the white guilt that you can enjoy, and it is clear you enjoy it a lot. I decline and your disapproval of me I will, somehow, endure.
Another Doper mind-reader! I don't actually feel any guilt, so perhaps your psychic powers are failing you. But diversity really is wonderful -- I highly recommend it. It's nothing to be feared, and folks who prefer it really aren't "self-hating" -- they just prefer diversity to homogenous groups. It's okay to prefer diversity. It's not a negative or "self-hating" thing.

I think you're a fine (if sometimes grumpy) poster and I hope you grow more open to folks who think differently than you do. I think you're incorrect here, but everyone is incorrect on some things some of the time.

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  #274  
Old 07-30-2019, 09:44 AM
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Neither are whites who characterize white people who prefer diverse groups as "self-hating", unfortunately.

But that’s not what this says. Unless you think nonwhite people do not prefer diverse groups? This scientist says white liberals are the only demographic group that feels more warmly toward the outgroup than their own. The only one. Not equally warmly. More warmly.
  #275  
Old 07-30-2019, 09:46 AM
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Neither are whites who characterize white people who prefer diverse groups as "self-hating", unfortunately.
The quote from the article didn't really talk about who might "prefer diverse groups", you're making some extrapolation or something. I am curious what it would look like if he had also broke down how liberals of other races felt.

Also, not a fan of when someone goes on about how a shift in sympathy for Israel matters. Why is that the only foreign policy position we're all supposed to give a crap about and mean something about domestic politics?

Last edited by CarnalK; 07-30-2019 at 09:47 AM.
  #276  
Old 07-30-2019, 09:48 AM
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It’s a Jewish magazine.
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Old 07-30-2019, 10:44 AM
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But that’s not what this says. Unless you think nonwhite people do not prefer diverse groups? This scientist says white liberals are the only demographic group that feels more warmly toward the outgroup than their own. The only one. Not equally warmly. More warmly.
It's how I probably would have answered, precisely because I prefer diverse groups (with a hint of the disapproval I hold for Trump supporters/enablers, who are overwhelmingly white). In order to counter the tendency to just hire, promote, and hang out with folks with similar backgrounds, one must make an effort to seek out those with different backgrounds. Just pretending to treat everyone equally won't cut it. It requires this extra effort (with the benefit of far superior results, IMO), which is how I think I would have interpreted "warmth" in such a poll question.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 07-30-2019 at 10:44 AM.
  #278  
Old 07-30-2019, 10:49 AM
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Self-hating whites are not new.
It ain't so much that white liberals hate themselves, but that white liberals are likely to less likely to give a shit that another candidate is not white. It's very liberating, I'm an advocate!

Last edited by bobot; 07-30-2019 at 10:51 AM.
  #279  
Old 07-30-2019, 10:50 AM
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It's how I probably would have answered

“Probably”? LOL

You, sir, are the ne plus ultra of what this cite talks about. The only question is how many standard deviations we are talking about in your case.

Last edited by SlackerInc; 07-30-2019 at 10:53 AM.
  #280  
Old 07-30-2019, 10:53 AM
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“Probably”? LOL

You, sir, are the ne plus ultra of what this cite talks about. The only question is how many standard deviations we are talking about in your case.
Gotcha. Let me know if you're interested in discussion rather than sniping silliness. Or if you'd prefer the sniping, take it to the Pit and I'll be happy to respond.
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Old 07-30-2019, 11:04 AM
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I am always interested in discussion, including in the Pit. But you know that.
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Old 07-30-2019, 11:04 AM
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It ain't so much that white liberals hate themselves, but that white liberals are likely to less likely to give a shit that another candidate is not white. It's very liberating, I'm an advocate!
No doubt not giving a shit about candidate color is liberating. I know I don't care about it. However, feeling either more or less warm to a group not your own strikes me as ridiculous when it is based on color. Color is a useful distraction from the real issue which is economic class.
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Old 07-30-2019, 12:13 PM
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I am always interested in discussion, including in the Pit. But you know that.
Not by that response.

But it's not a big deal. I do the sniping thing sometimes too -- it can be fun! But when you snipe in response to a thoughtful attempt to answer a question, then you reduce the chance of actual discussion and exchange of ideas.
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Old 07-30-2019, 12:15 PM
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No doubt not giving a shit about candidate color is liberating. I know I don't care about it. However, feeling either more or less warm to a group not your own strikes me as ridiculous when it is based on color. Color is a useful distraction from the real issue which is economic class.
The socio-cultural categorization of "race" is different than "color" -- I think economic class is indeed a valid consideration in various circumstances, but so is race. Race is bullshit, but it's a form of bullshit that needs to be considered, because it's so powerful. IMO, of course.
  #285  
Old 07-30-2019, 12:44 PM
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That’s inherently incoherent.
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Old 07-30-2019, 12:47 PM
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That’s inherently incoherent.
Interesting discussion! Thanks for such a thoughtful contribution.
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Old 07-30-2019, 01:02 PM
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Do I really need to spell out why?
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Old 07-30-2019, 01:32 PM
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Very interesting piece from political scientist Zach Goldberg:
<snip>
it is politically hobbling for Democrats, I guarantee you that much.
How will this hobbling effect work? Could you fill in step 3 below?

1. White liberals regard nonwhites more favorably than they regard whites.
2. A political scientist observes this phenomenon and writes a paper about it.
3. ???
4. Profit! Democrats are politically hobbled!
  #289  
Old 07-30-2019, 01:33 PM
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It’s a Jewish magazine.
Goldberg, iceberg, what's the difference?
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Old 07-30-2019, 01:42 PM
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Do I really need to spell out why?
Well, the thing is that saying "Race is bullshit, but it's a form of bullshit that needs to be considered, because it's so powerful" is not inherently incoherent.

IAN iiandyiiii and cannot speak for him, but it looked pretty clear to me that he was making a valid point which could be more cumbersomely expressed something like this:

Racial categories are a social construct based partly on superficial phenotypic differences between human populations, partly on linguistic and sociocultural differences between ethnic/cultural groups, and partly on plain old ignorance and prejudice. Racial identity of individuals is not a reliable guide to their genetic relatedness. And there is so far no scientific confirmation of various hypotheses that measured average differences between members of different racial categories in a number of extremely complex characteristics, such as intelligence, athletic ability, proficiency at spelling, etc., are due wholly or partly to genetic differences. Therefore, trying to deduce an individual's fundamental characteristics or abilities from their racial identity is unscientific bullshit.

However, racial identity is an important aspect of modern human society, and many people regard their racial identity as an important part of who they are, just as they may regard their national, gender, ethnic, regional, etc. identity as an important part of who they are. Also, our society (especially in the US) has historically been largely shaped, and is still profoundly influenced, by far-reaching beliefs and laws concerning the racial classification of individuals. Therefore, social attitudes about race are a powerful influence in society and can't simply be dismissed as bullshit.


That position may be somewhat complicated and nuanced, but there's nothing "inherently incoherent" about it.

Last edited by Kimstu; 07-30-2019 at 01:43 PM.
  #291  
Old 07-30-2019, 01:43 PM
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Probably:
3) white people notice liberal Democrats scoff at their concerns and decide not to vote Dem.
  #292  
Old 07-30-2019, 01:49 PM
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How will this hobbling effect work? Could you fill in step 3 below?

1. White liberals regard nonwhites more favorably than they regard whites.
2. A political scientist observes this phenomenon and writes a paper about it.
3. ???
4. Profit! Democrats are politically hobbled!

I disagree with your premise. There is no step 3, in fact there is no step 2. The paper is just describing something, not participating in it. 1 leads to 4, because white liberals’ obsequious flagellation of their own ethnic group is a huge turnoff to the white moderates we desperately need.
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Old 07-30-2019, 01:49 PM
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White people who are concerned that government isn't concerned enough with white people's concerns are called Republicans.
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Old 07-30-2019, 01:50 PM
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White people who are concerned that government isn't concerned enough with white people's concerns are called Republicans.

Nope. Or if true, we have no chance to win national elections.
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Old 07-30-2019, 01:52 PM
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Nope. Or if true, we have no chance to win national elections.
So Democrats have to pretend to be Republicans to win?

At what point can we put everyone's concerns over just white people's concerns? Never?
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Old 07-30-2019, 01:59 PM
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Whites shifted from voting R to D in 2018: https://www.brookings.edu/blog/the-a...for-democrats/

They can shift back.


https://thehill.com/hilltv/what-amer...-whether-white
Quote:
A significant majority of Republican voters, 75 percent, said that white Americans are subject to discrimination. Most independents, 55 percent, agreed.
Democrats differed strongly with only 38 percent saying that whites faced discrimination. Sixty-two percent of Democratic respondents said that European-Americans face almost no discrimination or none whatsoever.
Overall, 55 percent of respondents said that white people must deal with societal bias. White voters were much more likely than Hispanic or black respondents to agree. Sixty-two percent of white respondents said that European Americans experience discrimination while 38 percent said they face none or almost none.

“Only” 38 percent. That’s a big chunk! Good luck winning without them (us). And that 38 percent is of all Democrats. I’d bet it’s close to a majority of white Dems.

Last edited by SlackerInc; 07-30-2019 at 02:01 PM.
  #297  
Old 07-30-2019, 02:35 PM
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I disagree with your premise. There is no step 3
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1 leads to 4, because white liberals’ obsequious flagellation of their own ethnic group is a huge turnoff to the white moderates we desperately need.
Um, this IS your step 3. Jeez.

Now, you're the one who's turning "white liberals were more favorable toward nonwhites" into "white liberals’ obsequious flagellation of their own ethnic group." These two things are not equivalent. Treating them as such to argue your point is unadulterated bullshit.

Oh, and incidentally:
Quote:
, in fact there is no step 2. The paper is just describing something, not participating in it.
'observes' doesn't imply participation. And how the hell do you describe something that you haven't observed by some means?

ETA: Observation is what scientists DO. No observation = no data.

Last edited by RTFirefly; 07-30-2019 at 02:36 PM.
  #298  
Old 07-30-2019, 02:37 PM
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Making it a “step” implies participation. What I am talking about is bad for Democrats whether this paper exists or not.
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Old 07-30-2019, 02:46 PM
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And again, if you are in the 62%, you may find it galling to share the party with us 38 percenters. But purging us leaves you with a few House seats, very few Senate seats or governorships, and certainly no presidents, ever. Would that really not be too great a price to pay for moral purity?
  #300  
Old 07-30-2019, 02:50 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Chicago - South Side
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
Whites shifted from voting R to D in 2018: https://www.brookings.edu/blog/the-a...for-democrats/

They can shift back.


https://thehill.com/hilltv/what-amer...-whether-white



“Only” 38 percent. That’s a big chunk! Good luck winning without them (us). And that 38 percent is of all Democrats. I’d bet it’s close to a majority of white Dems.
So you think the best thing to do is for both parties to cater only to white people? I'm really not understanding what it is that you want the Democrats to actually do? Pander to white nationalists like Trump? If not that, then what?
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