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  #251  
Old 08-21-2019, 04:33 PM
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Because heís a joke, obviously. I mean, look at all the colleague who respect his issues-based leadership so much that they are lining up to ó oh wait. All the people whoíve worked with Sanders in be Senate and have made an endorsement seem to be endorsing Biden, except one (the other Vermont Senator).
You know, people on this board notice when you just make stuff up. In fact, exactly half of the ten Senators who have made an endorsement have endorsed Biden (including two from Delaware). Booker, Klobuchar, Warren, Sanders, and Bullock have one each, all from their home State Senators. The other 38 Democratic Senators have yet to make an endorsement.
  #252  
Old 08-21-2019, 07:19 PM
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So how do you explain the polls showing that Bernie is particularly strong in the Midwestern swing states?
Is he? Out of WI/MN/MI/IA he is only leading in one poll from March in WI (per 538, maybe you have other polls)

Last edited by Jophiel; 08-21-2019 at 07:21 PM.
  #253  
Old 08-21-2019, 07:28 PM
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And Biden will be 77.
And trump 74, but the GOp isnt declaring him "un-electable" due to his age.

we gotta stop with the ageism and attacks.
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Old 08-21-2019, 07:33 PM
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Oh, come on. Warren, Harris, Booker, Castro, and arguably even Buttigieg beat Sanders on the resume. They all have experience that is more in line with the duties of the Oval Office, not to mention having run political races that arenít in Vermont.
So are you gonna back this up, or back down?
  #255  
Old 08-21-2019, 07:47 PM
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So are you gonna back this up, or back down?
There's really no point to chasing this down. They all have interesting professional experience, he's just going to say that it's more in line with the job of president than being in Congress for 30 years.
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Old 08-21-2019, 07:48 PM
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Is he? Out of WI/MN/MI/IA he is only leading in one poll from March in WI (per 538, maybe you have other polls)
Iím talking about the hypothetical polls about him vs. Trump. Biden is consistently the biggest winner against Trump overall, but Sanders is a clear second, and the drop off to third is steep; there are MANY polls in which only those two beat Trump, while all of the others lose to him.
And Sanders has generally come closer to matching Bidenís performance in swing States than in the country as a whole.
  #257  
Old 08-21-2019, 07:55 PM
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And trump 74, but the GOp isnt declaring him "un-electable" due to his age.

we gotta stop with the ageism and attacks.
The GOP wouldn't turn on trump if he sprouted horns and a tail. In considering someone for president, it's not ageist to consider his age.
  #258  
Old 08-21-2019, 07:58 PM
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The thing is, Sanders is never ever ever going to win the primary. Way too many Dems hate his guts. They blame him for 2016, they think he's a carpetbagger, they think he's an unreasonable ideologue. So it doesn't matter how he polls against Trump, that's never going to happen.
  #259  
Old 08-21-2019, 09:41 PM
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So are you gonna back this up, or back down?
See below.

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There's really no point to chasing this down. They all have interesting professional experience, he's just going to say that it's more in line with the job of president than being in Congress for 30 years.
Thatís exactly what I said in the first place. Iím not saying that Bernie has no experience: heís well versed in being a mediocre legislator. Others have experience more in line with what Americans have typically preferred for our Presidents.

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You know, people on this board notice when you just make stuff up. In fact, exactly half of the ten Senators who have made an endorsement have endorsed Biden (including two from Delaware). Booker, Klobuchar, Warren, Sanders, and Bullock have one each, all from their home State Senators. The other 38 Democratic Senators have yet to make an endorsement.
Hahaha!

Biden has been endorsed by Doug Jones, Dianne Feinstein, Bob Casey, Bob Graham, Bill Nelson, and Tom Daschle. Iím pretty sure all of them served in the Senate with Sanders for at least a brief time. I mean, if Sanders is such a damn awesome legislator, where are his current and former colleagues getting on the Bernie train and extolling his amazing political skills?

Answer: Sandersí record is vastly inflated by his supporters, and the silence of his colleagues says something.
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Old 08-21-2019, 10:37 PM
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See below.
....
I guess then no, you're not gonna back it up.
  #261  
Old 08-22-2019, 05:21 AM
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I guess then no, you're not gonna back it up.
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  #262  
Old 08-22-2019, 01:20 PM
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The thing is, Sanders is never ever ever going to win the primary. Way too many Dems hate his guts. They blame him for 2016, they think he's a carpetbagger, they think he's an unreasonable ideologue. So it doesn't matter how he polls against Trump, that's never going to happen.
I'm sorry, I have to disagree with you. Since he's in second place in the polls behind Biden I think he's got a very good chance of winning the primary. A lot of non moderate, non neo-liberal, non corporatists love him. There are a lot of teachers, nurses, and Amazon and Walmart workers who are going to vote for him. Some die hard HRC supporters hate him because they think he took something away from her 2016 campaign, but he supported her after he lost the primary. His policies that were considered too far left in 2016 are now being touted by most of the Dem candidates. He's got a great record of being consistent in his policies, he doesn't do flip flops in the changing political wind.

The only way I think he could lose is if he does a "like white kids" or a covfefe between now and Iowa.
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Old 08-22-2019, 01:32 PM
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Not that it would make a difference, but if the general election were between two clowns like Sanders and Trump, and thereís nothing important on my local ballot, I might seriously consider not bothering to vote. There would be no point.
  #264  
Old 08-22-2019, 01:35 PM
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Not that it would make a difference, but if the general election were between two clowns like Sanders and Trump, and thereís nothing important on my local ballot, I might seriously consider not bothering to vote. There would be no point.
I'm no Sanders fan. But how you can say that, after seeing all the terrible things Trump has done, is beyond me.
  #265  
Old 08-22-2019, 01:40 PM
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I'm no Sanders fan. But how you can say that, after seeing all the terrible things Trump has done, is beyond me.
I live in DC. We have an electoral college. Tell me why my vote matters, when I donít even have an elected representative in Congress.
  #266  
Old 08-22-2019, 02:08 PM
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I live in DC. We have an electoral college. Tell me why my vote matters, when I donít even have an elected representative in Congress.
I meant to say voting representative.
  #267  
Old 08-22-2019, 03:07 PM
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Oh, wow, Ok if those are your ideas of how "They all have experience that is more in line with the duties of the Oval Office, not to mention having run political races that arenít in Vermont." then I cant help you.
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Old 08-22-2019, 03:15 PM
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I live in DC. We have an electoral college. Tell me why my vote matters, when I donít even have an elected [voting] representative in Congress.
I will concede that your vote won't have the same clout as if it were cast in, say, Florida or Ohio. But voting is a civic duty, I believe, and your vote would be one more in the aggregate of all those indicating their disgust in Trump.
  #269  
Old 08-22-2019, 03:42 PM
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I consider climate change to be perhaps the most important long term issue we need to deal with politically and Sander's strident anti-nuke position is a disaster on par with Trump's stupid pro-coal policies, maybe worse because it will be harder to recover. Sanders then doubles down on anti-science by being anti-GMO. If Democrats make me choose between Sanders and Trump I'm voting third party.
  #270  
Old 08-22-2019, 03:56 PM
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Oh, wow, Ok if those are your ideas of how "They all have experience that is more in line with the duties of the Oval Office, not to mention having run political races that arenít in Vermont." then I cant help you.
I am not asking for your kind of help.
  #271  
Old 08-22-2019, 03:59 PM
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I consider climate change to be perhaps the most important long term issue we need to deal with politically and Sander's strident anti-nuke position is a disaster on par with Trump's stupid pro-coal policies, maybe worse because it will be harder to recover. Sanders then doubles down on anti-science by being anti-GMO. If Democrats make me choose between Sanders and Trump I'm voting third party.
The country may go down the tubes because you couldn't figure out which was the lesser of two evils...but you'll at least have your moral victory to fall back on.
  #272  
Old 08-22-2019, 04:00 PM
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I will concede that your vote won't have the same clout as if it were cast in, say, Florida or Ohio. But voting is a civic duty, I believe, and your vote would be one more in the aggregate of all those indicating their disgust in Trump.
I generally agree that voting, even when the chips are stacked against you, is the right thing to do. Even voting for compromise candidates is the smart thing to do. But voting for a clown under a system intentionally designed to disenfranchise people living in one city? This isnít like ďmy vote doesnít count because Iím not winning elections,Ē this is ďthe system is designed for the express purpose of giving me zero politics power.Ē
  #273  
Old 08-22-2019, 04:01 PM
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The country may go down the tubes because you couldn't figure out which was the lesser of two evils...but you'll at least have your moral victory to fall back on.
If you vote for a candidate who's as bad as Trump when it comes to climate change that's on you, not me.
  #274  
Old 08-22-2019, 04:08 PM
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If you vote for a candidate who's as bad as Trump when it comes to climate change that's on you, not me.
No, if you can't tell the difference between being possibly equally wrong on one front and being wrong on six to seven fronts, that is on you.
  #275  
Old 08-22-2019, 04:13 PM
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If you vote for a candidate who's as bad as Trump when it comes to climate change that's on you, not me.
Sanders wants to bring coal back???
  #276  
Old 08-22-2019, 04:24 PM
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No, if you can't tell the difference between being possibly equally wrong on one front and being wrong on six to seven fronts, that is on you.
As I said, climate change is very important to me and Sanders is at least as bad as Trump and possibly worse. I will not vote for a candidate who will make climate change worse than Trump. Most of Trump's idiocy will be washed away by a term or two of a good presidency but if Sanders manages to shut down a significant number of nuclear power plants (his goal is to shut them all down) then we will be paying for his idiocy for generations.
  #277  
Old 08-22-2019, 05:24 PM
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I'm sorry, I have to disagree with you. Since he's in second place in the polls behind Biden I think he's got a very good chance of winning the primary. A lot of non moderate, non neo-liberal, non corporatists love him.
He is going to be stuck at the same level of support for the duration, imho. There is just no way a majority is going to pick him.
  #278  
Old 08-22-2019, 05:32 PM
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He is going to be stuck at the same level of support for the duration, imho. There is just no way a majority is going to pick him.
While vastly superior to the current President, he'd be my last choice of the Dems in the race. (well, not really last. Ahead of Williamson and De Blasio.)

I think he's 1) too old, 2) would probably be ineffective in getting stuff done and 3) would have a hard time beating Trump. I don't hate his policies, and am grateful the party has moved leftward. I'll give him some credit for that. I'm not mad at him for 2016 and don't think he cost Clinton the election.
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Old 08-22-2019, 07:22 PM
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I'm sure there's plenty of people like you that have just weighed the options and he scores lower. But there is a solid chunk of haters too. This board has a decent representation of the moderate Dem voters and I see too many who actively dislike the guy.

Looking at Morning Consult's second choice numbers, somewhat oddly Biden and Sanders supporters slightly favour the other as their second choice but they aren't anyone else's second choice. Don't think the numbers are big enough to back up my point though. 538 did an article contending Sanders has a high floor-low ceiling of support, I'll look for it later.
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Old 08-23-2019, 03:08 AM
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538 did an article contending Sanders has a high floor-low ceiling of support, I'll look for it later.
Yes, and even if they didnít, itís pretty obvious. My 19-year-old son sends Bernie money monthly that he probably canít really afford. He is ride or die for Bernie. The people picking him in polls right now are never going to abandon him. But the people not picking him in polls right now are not going to move to him in significant numbers as the field thins.

And while most candidates could use winning Iowa and/or New Hampshire as a springboard to get momentum and surge to the front, that wonít work with Bernie. That will just solidify the majority against him.


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we gotta stop with the ageism and attacks.

Itís not ageism to say that an incredibly important, massively stressful 24/7 job like the presidency is not suitable for an 87-year-old. (And yes, Joe Biden is also too damn old.) My mom was born the same year as Bernie, and there is just no way.


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Iím talking about the hypothetical polls about him vs. Trump. Biden is consistently the biggest winner against Trump overall, but Sanders is a clear second, and the drop off to third is steep; there are MANY polls in which only those two beat Trump, while all of the others lose to him.
And Sanders has generally come closer to matching Bidenís performance in swing States than in the country as a whole.

Cite? ďManyĒ cites, that is?


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Also, Bernie does have experience founding and running a profitable small business before going into politics, so his private sector experience isn't zero.

Wait, what?


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He's like an old school western European socialist from the 70's.

The funny thing is, I feel certain that if we could give Bernie truth serum, he would not dispute this and in fact would be flattered by the description.
  #281  
Old 08-23-2019, 12:56 PM
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Sanders wants to bring coal back???
In a word, no.

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As I said, climate change is very important to me and Sanders is at least as bad as Trump and possibly worse. I will not vote for a candidate who will make climate change worse than Trump. Most of Trump's idiocy will be washed away by a term or two of a good presidency but if Sanders manages to shut down a significant number of nuclear power plants (his goal is to shut them all down) then we will be paying for his idiocy for generations.
He wants to transform our energy system to 100% renewable energy. You don't honestly think he's going to get rid of nuclear power without some working alternative in place?

How do you imagine he will make climate change worse? Have you seen this?
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  #282  
Old 08-23-2019, 01:01 PM
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...Itís not ageism to say that an incredibly important, massively stressful 24/7 job like the presidency is not suitable for an 87-year-old. (And yes, Joe Biden is also too damn old.) My mom was born the same year as Bernie, and there is just no way....
He's 77, a year older than Biden and 4 years older than Trump.
How old is your Mom?
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Old 08-23-2019, 01:15 PM
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It doesn't matter how old his mother is, 77 is frigging old.
  #284  
Old 08-23-2019, 04:06 PM
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He's 77, a year older than Biden and 4 years older than Trump.
How old is your Mom?

My mom was born earlier in 1941, so she has already turned 78.

But Bernie doesnít get to stay the same age as he is now throughout his presidency, so my point stands. He would turn 87 in the last year of his presidency.
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Old 08-23-2019, 05:55 PM
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No need to give him two terms just yet but he will be over 80 during his first term. Generally we're happy when an 80+ old relative is still living independently. I'm not sure many would be happy he's running the country.
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Old 08-23-2019, 06:04 PM
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Agreed, but we also should not be running anyone who can’t stand for reelection.

ETA: Let’s note for absolute clarity that Bernie would actually turn 80 in the first year of his presidency. That’s insane.

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  #287  
Old 08-25-2019, 08:29 AM
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My wife and I were at the State Fair yesterday when Bernie showed up. FWIW, he is not a particularly dynamic speaker (he spoke mostly about climate change), but there was a large crowd.

He kept saying we should listen to the science, and nobody asked him about listening to the science on nuclear energy and GMOs.

Overall, meh.

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Old 08-25-2019, 02:11 PM
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Agreed, but we also should not be running anyone who canít stand for reelection.

ETA: Letís note for absolute clarity that Bernie would actually turn 80 in the first year of his presidency. Thatís insane.
Why? Other than ageism. Is he sick? Senile?
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Old 08-25-2019, 05:35 PM
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Is he sick? Senile?
Now? Don't know. In a couple of years? Yes, probably. Is he past his prime? Of course he is. What 80-year-old isn't?

This isn't ageism. It's actuarial science.

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Old 08-25-2019, 07:09 PM
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Now? Don't know. In a couple of years? Yes, probably. Is he past his prime? Of course he is. What 80-year-old isn't?

This isn't ageism. It's actuarial science.

Which depends on averages, not individuals. It's totally worthless for a individual.
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Old 08-25-2019, 07:33 PM
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It’s really not. For a 70 or 75 year old, okay. Not for an 87 year old. There has never been someone that old who is truly up to the 24/7 job of being president. And the two oldest presidents we have had (Trump and Reagan) were/are not my idea of mentally sharp, to say the least.
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Old 08-25-2019, 08:50 PM
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It’s really not. For a 70 or 75 year old, okay. Not for an 87 year old. There has never been someone that old who is truly up to the 24/7 job of being president. And the two oldest presidents we have had (Trump and Reagan) were/are not my idea of mentally sharp, to say the least.
Reagan was fine his first term. Ok, 2nd term- not so much.



But medicine has advanced since then.


Warren Buffett is 88! and still sharp.


https://www.cnbc.com/video/2018/01/1...od-health.html

https://www.thestreet.com/story/1428...follow-it.html

QE2 is 93 and still sharp and in pretty good health:
https://www.cheatsheet.com/entertain...d-health.html/

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Old 08-25-2019, 09:29 PM
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None of them are commanders-in-chief of the world’s largest military and head of the executive branch of the worlds largest economy and 300-odd million people. They don’t get woken up at 3 a.m. having to make split second life-or-death decisions that affect thousands or millions of people.

Last edited by SlackerInc; 08-25-2019 at 09:30 PM.
  #294  
Old 08-25-2019, 10:52 PM
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None of them are commanders-in-chief of the worldís largest military and head of the executive branch of the worlds largest economy and 300-odd million people. They donít get woken up at 3 a.m. having to make split second life-or-death decisions that affect thousands or millions of people.

Umm, the Queen is the Commander of the British Armed forces, in theory, and Buffet heads a huge conglomerate of companies that makes him the 3rd richest person in the world.

So, your point is invalid.
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Old 08-26-2019, 12:14 AM
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Neither of them have to be awoken in the middle of the night to make split-second life or death decisions. So your point is invalid in practice, whatever the case “in theory”.
  #296  
Old 08-26-2019, 04:09 AM
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I am unable to vote for anyone in their seventies.
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  #297  
Old 08-26-2019, 07:27 AM
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"Old" is the Republican brand, not the Democrat brand. The Democrats have always been the "young" party, which is why only young Democrats win elections.

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Which depends on averages, not individuals. It's totally worthless for a individual.
Say you're an owner of an NFL team. Would you sign a 40-year-old quarterback for an 8-year contract?
  #298  
Old 08-26-2019, 07:39 AM
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Umm, the Queen is the Commander of the British Armed forces, in theory, and Buffet heads a huge conglomerate of companies that makes him the 3rd richest person in the world.
Umm, the President is the Commander in Chief of the US Armed forces, in reality.

In theory, reality and theory are the same. In reality, they aren't.

And Buffet could drop dead today, or completely lose his faculties over the next few months, and the only reasonable response would be "Yeah, well he's 88, and those things happen when you're that old."

The truth is that while some people retain their vigor well into their 80's, you never really know who that is going to be in advance, and the best you can say about a fellow as old as Buffet is that he hasn't lost it yet.
  #299  
Old 08-26-2019, 07:48 AM
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Why? Other than ageism. Is he sick? Senile?
He has slipped in his advancing years, that's for sure.
  #300  
Old 08-26-2019, 01:41 PM
Ryan_Liam is offline
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Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Manchester, England
Posts: 4,189
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
Agreed, but we also should not be running anyone who canít stand for reelection.

ETA: Letís note for absolute clarity that Bernie would actually turn 80 in the first year of his presidency. Thatís insane.
Not as crazy as the current person with senile dementia in the WH.
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