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  #151  
Old 06-20-2019, 06:05 PM
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Yeah, and she's being endlessly mocked for saying "concentration camp"

How is that helping?
...Donald Trump was endlessly mocked for everything he said and he got elected President of the United States of America.

Stephen Miller has been endlessly mocked and has effectively instituted concentration camps on the borders.

I really don't think you guys have figured out this all works now. AOC is endlessly mocked for everything she does. But why would that matter?
  #152  
Old 06-20-2019, 06:19 PM
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Yeah, and she's being endlessly mocked for saying "concentration camp"

How is that helping?
She is being endlessly mocked for every single thing she has said, and quite a few things she has not said.

It's white noise, created by worthless idiots.
  #153  
Old 06-20-2019, 06:19 PM
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I really don't think you guys have figured out this all works now. AOC is endlessly mocked for everything she does. But why would that matter?
I don't think YOU figured it all out. You can scream "Concentration camp!" until you are blue in the face. The people you want to reach stop listening after you say it. If you are cool with people not listening so you can make ridiculous comparisons to Nazis, then feel free. Good luck with it.

Like I said before. I already believe that conditions are bad. But I don't want to hear "concentration camp" because to me, it means "the deliberate policy of extermination through labor...designed to ensure that the inmates would die of starvation, untreated disease and summary executions within set periods of time"
  #154  
Old 06-20-2019, 06:27 PM
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...Donald Trump was endlessly mocked for everything he said and he got elected President of the United States of America.

Stephen Miller has been endlessly mocked and has effectively instituted concentration camps on the borders.

I really don't think you guys have figured out this all works now. AOC is endlessly mocked for everything she does. But why would that matter?
Nearly the entire Republican party has coalesced around that. Ocasio is not on the same page as Pelosi and Schumer half the time.
  #155  
Old 06-20-2019, 06:54 PM
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The controversy AOC caused raised my own awareness. At first, I thought I was going to see the spectacle of her hyperbole. Unhappy surprise, things are worse than I thought and she is right after all.

But I can see Manson's point. Manson, how many people need to die in these camps before you accept the terms 'concentration camp'? Do they have to be worked to death, or would being crammed together without sanitation until they croak be sufficient? How many? I hope we don't get to 5 million, scratch our heads and say, "gosh, I guess they really were concentration camps. Hindsight is 20/20!"
  #156  
Old 06-20-2019, 07:01 PM
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The controversy AOC caused raised my own awareness. At first, I thought I was going to see the spectacle of her hyperbole. Unhappy surprise, things are worse than I thought and she is right after all.

But I can see Manson's point. Manson, how many people need to die in these camps before you accept the terms 'concentration camp'? Do they have to be worked to death, or would being crammed together without sanitation until they croak be sufficient? How many? I hope we don't get to 5 million, scratch our heads and say, "gosh, I guess they really were concentration camps. Hindsight is 20/20!"
Good question. How many have died from being worked to death? How many have died from deliberate starvation? How many have died from summary execution? When the answer to those questions is more than "0", then you might have something.
  #157  
Old 06-20-2019, 07:55 PM
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I'd like to hear how you think the conversation would go:

"Hi, I'd like you to vote for the Democrat candidate so we can stop travesty going on at the border in the concentration camps..."

"Wait, we have concentration camps at the border? We are forcing people to work until they die, we are deliberately starving them, we are executing them?"

"No, not that. But holding people in dangerous conditions while they wait to be processed"

"So, we are not deliberately killing them? Doesn't sound like concentration camps to me."

"They are. Here are some sites to historians that say they meet the classical definition of concentration camp that was used up until 1945 and when you...."

"Whatever. Let me know when we start deliberately killing people."
Yeah, because having people die by gross mismanagement and neglect is so much better.
Word of caution: don't light too many matches around that argument. Straw is very flammable.

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Yeah, and she's being endlessly mocked for saying "concentration camp"

How is that helping?
"Endlessly mocked" by Cheeto Jeezus' enablers and thugs? Oh the humanity.
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Last edited by CaptMurdock; 06-20-2019 at 07:57 PM.
  #158  
Old 06-20-2019, 08:06 PM
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"Endlessly mocked" by Cheeto Jeezus' enablers and thugs? Oh the humanity.
The people you have to convince there is a problem? Yeah, I consider that significant.
  #159  
Old 06-20-2019, 08:29 PM
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Nearly the entire Republican party has coalesced around that. Ocasio is not on the same page as Pelosi and Schumer half the time.
Mainstream Republicans actually fought tooth and nail to shut Trump down, and to limit the tea party's power before this.

Probably the most important aspect of this is that this issue had essentially died, and uncontroversial comments from opponents of Trumps border separation policy didn't generate any traction. AOC put this back into the public consciousness.

I don't think this will matter much in 2020, but it's still important whenever a non-Trump president is in office that this is an issue where they will face pressure to remedy the situation.
  #160  
Old 06-20-2019, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by manson1972 View Post
I don't think YOU figured it all out. You can scream "Concentration camp!" until you are blue in the face. The people you want to reach stop listening after you say it.
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Originally Posted by Try2B Comprehensive View Post
The controversy AOC caused raised my own awareness. At first, I thought I was going to see the spectacle of her hyperbole. Unhappy surprise, things are worse than I thought and she is right after all.
...the people that needed to be reached got reached.

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If you are cool with people not listening so you can make ridiculous comparisons to Nazis, then feel free. Good luck with it.
The only people making ridiculous comparisons to Nazis are people like you. If you were to stop doing that then the ridiculous comparisons would stop.

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Like I said before. I already believe that conditions are bad.
You do realize that saying the conditions are only "bad" is every bit as propagandistic as what you claim "concentration camps" to be? What can we discern from the word "bad?" The conditions in a typical prison are "bad" compared to what most people are used too. Are the conditions in the camp equivalent to what you would find in a typical prison or are they orders of magnitude worse?

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But I don't want to hear "concentration camp" because to me, it means "the deliberate policy of extermination through labor...designed to ensure that the inmates would die of starvation, untreated disease and summary executions within set periods of time"
What "you hear" and what was both explicitly meant and how the word is explicitly defined are two different things. You've been participating in the thread for a while now. You must have read all of the cites from historians who both define what is meant by a concentration camp and agree with the characterization that these are indeed concentration camps. So after all of that: why are you insisting on using a definition of concentration camp that you seem to have invented out of whole cloth?
  #161  
Old 06-20-2019, 08:51 PM
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They aren't concentration camps, as I explained, and I don't support Trump regardless.
They are, and this "no true scotsman" crap has to stop. Kids are dying in there, and we're still out here playing with words.
  #162  
Old 06-20-2019, 09:07 PM
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They are, and this "no true scotsman" crap has to stop. Kids are dying in there, and we're still out here playing with words.
No true scotsman? That's goddamn ridiculous. My whole point is that you are the guys "playing with words".

Ok, tell me does the textbook/historical definition of genocide not include forced removals? Would you think that we could not round up some historians who would pronounce that deporting 400,000 immigrants is technically a genocide? A little over 400,000 was Obama's top year.
  #163  
Old 06-20-2019, 09:16 PM
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I'd like to hear how you think the conversation would go:

"Hi, I'd like you to vote for the Democrat candidate so we can stop travesty going on at the border in the concentration camps..."

"Wait, we have concentration camps at the border? We are forcing people to work until they die, we are deliberately starving them, we are executing them?"

"No, not that. But holding people in dangerous conditions while they wait to be processed"

"So, we are not deliberately killing them? Doesn't sound like concentration camps to me."

"They are. Here are some sites to historians that say they meet the classical definition of concentration camp that was used up until 1945 and when you...."

"Whatever. Let me know when we start deliberately killing people."
...is that how you typically talk to your friends and family? Have you honestly gone up to your brother and said ""Hi, I'd like you to vote for the Democrat candidate ..."

Because that isn't how I talk to people I know. But you do you. I'm much more likely to send them a link to a tweet like this:

https://twitter.com/KatzOnEarth/stat...55185835819009

And I'd explain to them that we don't know if this is typical or not because there is zero real oversight of any of these camps. That these people were held like this for weeks. That congresspeople have been denied access to many of these camps, and we don't even know where all of the camps are.

I'd talk to them the same way I'm talking to you, the same way I'm talking to everyone else who are reading this thread but not commenting. I am perfectly aware that you are going to argue with me and debate me because that is what you do. But my goal isn't to convince you just as AOC's goal isn't to convince the people who will instinctively defend the status quo no matter what the reality is.
  #164  
Old 06-20-2019, 09:23 PM
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No true scotsman? That's goddamn ridiculous. My whole point is that you are the guys "playing with words".

Ok, tell me does the textbook/historical definition of genocide not include forced removals? Would you think that we could not round up some historians who would pronounce that deporting 400,000 immigrants is technically a genocide? A little over 400,000 was Obama's top year.
...I can't find a single textbook/historical definition of genocide that fits the way you have defined it. Which one did you use?
  #165  
Old 06-20-2019, 09:58 PM
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Boy,, you searched all those textbooks quick. Do you think the Trail of Tears was a genocide?
  #166  
Old 06-20-2019, 10:07 PM
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Boy,, you searched all those textbooks quick. Do you think the Trail of Tears was a genocide?
The Trail of Tears is probably not a good example for your claim that you don't need mass murder for a genocide: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_of_Tears#Statistics
  #167  
Old 06-20-2019, 10:15 PM
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Boy,, you searched all those textbooks quick. Do you think the Trail of Tears was a genocide?
...are there specific textbooks you are referring too that you want me to look up? My question to you was "which one did you use?" So are you going to answer that question so that we can quickly resolve this?

In what way is the Trail of Tears comparable to Obama's administration deporting people? And can you find any historian that would agree with you on that comparison?
  #168  
Old 06-20-2019, 10:19 PM
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No, I do know it's called "The Trail of Tears" for a reason. Part of the reason why we're calling these places "concentration camps" is the deaths that have happened?

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  #169  
Old 06-20-2019, 10:22 PM
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No, I do know it's called "The Trail of Tears" for a reason.
...so you can't provide a cite?

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Part of the reason why we're calling these places "concentration camps" is the deaths that have happened?
They are calling these places concentration camps because they fit the definition of concentration camps, and because a number of historians concur that they fit the definition. That information is all provided in the OP, as well as by various posters throughout the thread. It has nothing to do with any "deaths" in the camps.
  #170  
Old 06-20-2019, 10:27 PM
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...are there specific textbooks you are referring too that you want me to look up? My question to you was "which one did you use?" So are you going to answer that question so that we can quickly resolve this?

In what way is the Trail of Tears comparable to Obama's administration deporting people? And can you find any historian that would agree with you on that comparison?
I guess what I was thinking of was a little more specialized, "ethnic genocide", which I guess doesn't get a lot of respect in the genocide community. Probably better described as "ethnic cleansing", so I guess I concede this line of discussion unless you have something else to ask or say.
  #171  
Old 06-20-2019, 10:31 PM
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I guess what I was thinking of was a little more specialized, "ethnic genocide", which I guess doesn't get a lot of respect in the genocide community. Probably better described as "ethnic cleansing", so I guess I concede this line of discussion unless you have something else to ask or say.
...fair enough. "Ethnic cleansing" would have been a better analog, I still would have disagreed with you, but probably not as vehemently
  #172  
Old 06-20-2019, 11:05 PM
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@str8cashhomie
No, I do know it's called "The Trail of Tears" for a reason. Part of the reason why we're calling these places "concentration camps" is the deaths that have happened?
No, the main reason we are calling these places concentration camps is that they are being used to detain civillians in a constrained area under inhumane conditions. A concise series of tweets that explains this: https://twitter.com/landrist/status/1141056586628194304

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Originally Posted by Lester Andrist
Why are they called concentration camps? well, to state the obvious, it's because large numbers of people are "concentrated" in camps. A better question is, why don't we just call them prisons? We don't say "prisons" because prisons are a part of the formal legal system.

Follow me on this: The immigrants detained in concentration camps are intended to be OUTSIDE the formal legal system. Once removed from the #CriminalJusticeSystem the state is largely free to do whatever it wants. As Hannah Arendt might say, "everything is possible."

And this is what makes #ConcentrationCamps so terrifying. Detainees have no Privilege of habeas corpus (i.e., to be charged or let go). They can be held indefinitely, unable to see their family & denied the psychological comfort of knowing when & if they will ever see them again

It gets worse though. Because detainees of #ConcentrationCamps are outside the formal legal system, they are vulnerable to a whole host of other abuses. The history of #ConcentrationCamps is a history of people experiencing abuse, from torture to experimentation to sterilization
It happens that many claims that "they can't be concentrations camps because there isn't ___" are also mischaracterizations of what's actually going on in these camps, as there has been starvation including death, forced labor, overcrowding, etc.
  #173  
Old 06-21-2019, 12:01 AM
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I predict nobody will be taking about this 2 weeks from now, so not much. Pretty much the same can be said of any flashpoint subject around Trump.
  #174  
Old 06-21-2019, 12:26 AM
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But I don't want to hear "concentration camp" because to me, it means "the deliberate policy of extermination through labor...designed to ensure that the inmates would die of starvation, untreated disease and summary executions within set periods of time"
Untreated disease... I think we are seeing that, though it probably can't be characterized as deliberate. Still, detain thousands people in bad conditions and this will happen.

Tell you what. Let these people out of detention and I'll forget the whole thing.
  #175  
Old 06-21-2019, 01:02 AM
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They are calling these places concentration camps because they fit the definition of concentration camps, and because a number of historians concur that they fit the definition. That information is all provided in the OP, as well as by various posters throughout the thread. It has nothing to do with any "deaths" in the camps.
Not only that, but historians are saying that this is the beginning of the camp system. That this fits nicely with the start of camp systems, that such systems inherently deteriorate, and that things are going to get a lot worse.

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I predict nobody will be taking about this 2 weeks from now, so not much. Pretty much the same can be said of any flashpoint subject around Trump.
I must confess: part of my hope in starting this thread is that, in my own little way, I keep people talking about this. "Never Again" is not something I take lightly. This should not be a flashpoint. It's a human rights catastrophe.
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  #176  
Old 06-21-2019, 01:30 AM
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My whole point is that you are the guys "playing with words".
This coming from Mr. "Concentration camps should not be called concentration camps" is the ridiculous part.
  #177  
Old 06-21-2019, 03:22 AM
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Like I said before. I already believe that conditions are bad. But I don't want to hear "concentration camp" because to me, it means "the deliberate policy of extermination through labor...designed to ensure that the inmates would die of starvation, untreated disease and summary executions within set periods of time"
A couple things:

1) You and you alone don't get to redefine words. "Concentration camp" is a defined term and not even a new one. And given that we have reports of insufficient food, illnesses, lack of medical care, and so forth we might be closer to your definition than any of us would like. We don't know how many people have died in these places because the government is refusing to release numbers, but we do know some people have died.

2) I don't care if you want to hear something like this or not - I'm not going to stop talking about it because it's an ugly reality that needs to be dragged out of the shadows and exposed to the light of day.
  #178  
Old 06-21-2019, 05:20 AM
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Another historian in a mainstream news source weighs in.

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Applying the term “concentration camp” to the indefinite detention without trial of thousands of civilians in inhumane conditions — under armed guard and without adequate provisions or medical care — is not just appropriate, it’s necessary. Invoking the word does not demean the memory of the Holocaust. Instead, the lessons of the Holocaust will be lost if we refuse to engage with them.
But wait, there's more:

Quote:
Apart from the historical argument, there is a moral and geopolitical imperative for calling the atrocities happening on our southern border by their proper names. The international human rights regime depends on global cooperation, a veneer of accountability, and American funding. Trump eschews soft power in favor of military solutions, and is leading his fellow authoritarians in a race to the bottom. The 1951 Refugee Convention, while imperfect, once offered protections to stateless, persecuted people. That’s no longer true. Asylum seekers at the Mexican border are being treated like criminals despite having broken no laws. Locking up refugees in camps is the real betrayal of the legacy of the Holocaust.

As Hannah Arendt taught us in Eichmann in Jerusalem, perpetrators depend on us being desensitized to the victims’ suffering. Using euphemisms to cover for atrocities is the essence of the banality of evil. This is why perpetrators work so hard to propagandize, criminalize, and dehumanize the Other. Authoritarians require enemies to blame for their inadequacies, and to distract their base from their diminishing quality of life.

The red flags at the border are obvious to those of us raised with “never again,” a phrase Ocasio-Cortez invoked: dehumanizing language, children in cages, families separated, the deaths of trans asylum seekers, rampant diseases, and subhuman living conditions. “Never again” means we must work to deescalate before atrocities rise to the horrors of Auschwitz.
(Bolding mine.)

Hmm. Fancy that.

The phrasing does, in fact, matter. People aren't too worried about "detainment camps", even if conditions are horrendous. They may raise an eyebrow at "concentration camp". Hopefully enough of an eyebrow to look into the conditions at the camps. I have enough faith in humanity to believe that it's impossible for most people to see the actual conditions at the camps and come away thinking, "Yeah, this is fine", and, as usual, the problem often boils down to "people are getting all their information from the right-wing media sphere, and the right-wing media sphere is fundamentally dishonest". If "concentration camps" pierces that bubble, good.

I'm hoping I'll continue to be able to cite mainstream media articles here. It's a sign that this continues to be an issue.

Also, something I found funny. A few people here are complaining about "ridiculous" comparisons to nazis. This was the common through-line back in 2016 when a few prominent people were worried that Trump will probably build concentration camps. Here's Keith Olbermann.

Quote:
He continues: "That man who was elected by a minority says he will immediately incarcerate or deport 2-3 million undocumented Americans -- which is roughly the same number of people who live in Houston, TX -- which is roughly the same number of people who are already in all of the federal, state, and county jails and all the city jails, and al the ICE detention facilities, and all the Navy brigs, and all the Army stockades combined. Which leaves no inference possible, except that he somehow means to take 2-3 million people off our streets and keep them somewhere until they can be jailed or deported. And we have to pretend that this somewhere... will not involved concentration camps. But don't worry, he's unifying the nation!"
HMMMMM.

Note the comments section, which has aged incredibly well.

Last edited by Budget Player Cadet; 06-21-2019 at 05:23 AM.
  #179  
Old 06-21-2019, 06:16 AM
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Funny that the strict original definition is so vigorously supported in this one particular circumstance where the modern connotation would have maximum propaganda impact. Technically you are correct. Just like technically Switzerland is a 3rd world nation and the phrase begging the question does not mean raises the question yet is used as if it did.

But we all know that this particular pedantry is political Humpty Dumpstyism.

Last edited by octopus; 06-21-2019 at 06:20 AM.
  #180  
Old 06-21-2019, 06:21 AM
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I predict nobody will be taking about this 2 weeks from now, so not much. Pretty much the same can be said of any flashpoint subject around Trump.
I predict people will be talking about it for a long time to come, simply because the migrants will keep coming and if something isn't done to deal with this in a responsible manner, the situation will reach a breaking point and spill out into more public view.
  #181  
Old 06-21-2019, 10:03 AM
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The people you have to convince there is a problem? Yeah, I consider that significant.
If by that you mean the Trumpistas, I'd have to wait until they sober up or finish having sex with their sisters. That could take a while, and I don't know if the kids dying of malnutrition and dysentery have that kind of time.
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  #182  
Old 06-21-2019, 10:03 AM
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Funny that the strict original definition is so vigorously supported in this one particular circumstance where the modern connotation would have maximum propaganda impact. Technically you are correct. Just like technically Switzerland is a 3rd world nation and the phrase begging the question does not mean raises the question yet is used as if it did.

But we all know that this particular pedantry is political Humpty Dumpstyism.
Words have meanings and definitions. Why do you have such an issue with this?
  #183  
Old 06-21-2019, 10:33 AM
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Why yes, it is more important to use the correct terms to discuss human rights abuses, because euphemistic language is one of the key tools used by those who would abuse others to mask the depths of the harm being done, thank you for grasping the gist of what the historian I quoted said, octopus. Not sure why you find it funny. That's explicitly not me asking for an explanation, mind you, I think we just find very different things funny. I like Bo Burnham, you like kids in cages, nothing wrong with that.

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Words have meanings and definitions. Why do you have such an issue with this?
Let's not let them control the conversation. Accurately describing the abuses in question are "humpty-dumptyism" to him. What more need be said?
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  #184  
Old 06-21-2019, 10:40 AM
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This coming from Mr. "Concentration camps should not be called concentration camps" is the ridiculous part.
Maybe "enhanced accommodation" is more to his liking.
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  #185  
Old 06-21-2019, 10:51 AM
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Another historian in a mainstream news source weighs in.



But wait, there's more:



(Bolding mine.)

Hmm. Fancy that.
Yeah, fancy that. iiandyiiii spent the first half of the thread saying the use of "concentration camp" wasn't specifically to draw a Hitler/Holocaust comparison, only uneducated people think concentration camps=holocaust. Guess he was out of the loop.
  #186  
Old 06-21-2019, 10:54 AM
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Yeah, fancy that. iiandyiiii spent the first half of the thread saying the use of "concentration camp" wasn't specifically to draw a Hitler/Holocaust comparison, only uneducated people think concentration camps=holocaust. Guess he was out of the loop.
I don't think this is an accurate representation of my arguments. The use of this phrase is meant to invoke the emotional reaction that it should -- that these are horrifying abuses of human rights. There are many, many instances of horrifying abuses of human rights beyond the Holocaust alone.
  #187  
Old 06-21-2019, 11:08 AM
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...horseshit. For months people who are qualified to speak on the matter have been calling them concentration camps: if you hadn't noticed then you simply hadn't been payin attention. All AOC did was bring it to the public's consciousness.
The, um, international linguistic experts have been weighing in on this as an exact definition of 'Concentration Camps'? Just for shits and giggles, I looked up the definition:

Quote:
a place where large numbers of people, especially political prisoners or members of persecuted minorities, are deliberately imprisoned in a relatively small area with inadequate facilities, sometimes to provide forced labor or to await mass execution. The term is most strongly associated with the several hundred camps established by the Nazis in Germany and occupied Europe in 1933–45, among the most infamous being Dachau, Belsen, and Auschwitz.
Yeah, your experts really need to work on this. I'm looking over several definitions of the term and, you know, none of they really fit. All of them mention the basic points above. So...yeah, it's political. There aren't any people " who are qualified to speak on the matter have been calling them concentration camps" because that isn't even a thing.

Quote:
It is all in your head.
Sure it is, chief.

Quote:
I just googled "transitory detention camps." I got a single hit. From 2012.

You've just made that up. How Orwellian of you.
He...heheheh.....BWAHAHAHAHAHHAHHA! Seriously? You thought I was using an exact term? Perhaps you thought I got that from the counter linguistic group to the experts you think are weighing in on this saying these are definitely Concentration Camps? Good grief. Yeah man...I made that up. I took a real thing (i.e. detention camps') and put 'transitory' in front of it because, you know, they ARE transitory. We aren't putting these people in these camps on a permanent basis...kind of what makes them NOT Concentration Camps (well, one of a host of things). They are there merely until we can ship them back to their home countries. I seem to recall the average is around 90 days.

Quote:
Are you just regurgitating government propaganda or can you back any of this up? How quickly are they being processed, and what are the conditions they are being held in? Are families still being seperated? Has the process to seek asylum changed?
Well, what exactly are you asking me to cite here? I didn't say the conditions were good or that families weren't being 'seperated'(sic) or that the process for seeking asylum had bee changed. You made all that up, so I don't feel compelled to defend any of that horseshit. Are you what you quoted there was that there have been repeat people caught (i.e. they were caught, sent back, and caught trying again). Do you want me to cite that? I'm happy to though you can easily google that yourself, and you can even use not government sources if you like.

Quote:
Its funny how multiple historians have been cited in this thread that state that concentration camp is an appropriate word to be using here but random internet poster says they are all wrong. I'll side with the historians over the random internet poster.
I read the cites. I'm unconvinced, especially since most of the ones I've seen have a pretty obvious political ax to grind. It is, I concede debatable. But I think it's wrong to go there. It detracts from actual concentration camps in the past and dilutes the meaning...and, really, as I've said, it's more about scoring points than anything. One could talk about the horrible conditions in the detention camps on the border without using the deliberately charged language. Also, I don't see AOC or anyone else actually doing squat about it. I did a quick search, and I don't see any large appropriations being requested to alleviate the issue. Basically, the issue isn't that the US is evil, it's that there have been a flood of refugees from central America (not Mexico) that have overwhelmed the system. We literally are having logistics issues feeding, housing and processing so many people trying to flood into the US. Money, facilities, personnel need to be expanded...rapidly. Show me someone doing that and focused on that, instead of focused on fucking work games and scoring who is the Nazi points and I'll take things more seriously.

Quote:
You are going to be on the wrong side of history. "Transitory detention camps." Holy fucking shit.
No chief, I won't. For one thing, it's clear you haven't got a fucking clue WHERE I stand on this. Just reading your post is bemusing to me as you have no idea. For another, no one is covering themselves with glory here. The Dems in the obvious attempt to play with words and score points aren't...they are, IMHO, hurting the cause and worsening the situation, not helping. The Pubs, of course, are fucking clueless idiots and aren't doing shit about it. And, so, nothing is being done on the scale it needs to. Both sides are fucking up...as usual.
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  #188  
Old 06-21-2019, 11:16 AM
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Yeah, fancy that. iiandyiiii spent the first half of the thread saying the use of "concentration camp" wasn't specifically to draw a Hitler/Holocaust comparison, only uneducated people think concentration camps=holocaust. Guess he was out of the loop.
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I don't think this is an accurate representation of my arguments.
Of course you don't. You never think an unflattering description of your arguments is accurate because your arguments are so awesome they couldn't possibly be accurately described in an unflattering manner. We did have this exchange though:

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Originally Posted by CarnalK View Post
I am not defending Trump's policies here. I don't think people with legit refugee or immigration claims should be held in jails. But calling them concentration camps is an abuse of the term and I predict only going to be accepted by people already disposed to thinking Trump is the next Hitler
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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
"Concentration camp" only implies "the next Hitler" to the truly ignorant.
  #189  
Old 06-21-2019, 11:20 AM
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The Dems in the obvious attempt to play with words and score points aren't...
Wait did Pelosi say something about this?

Biden?

Booker?

Schiff?

Bennie Thompson? Lauren Underwood? (Chair and vice-chair of the U.S. House Committee on Homeland Security, who have oversight power over DHS.)

Literally any sitting (or running) democrat other than AOC?

Because if so that's certainly germane to the question in the OP.

If not, consider that we have already had this very silly conversation and that this is coming from historians, not the DNC. Any claim that this is first and foremost about partisan gamesmanship should wait until the political party that would benefit from it has maybe a bit more than one member sounding the alarm.
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  #190  
Old 06-21-2019, 11:21 AM
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Of course you don't. You never think an unflattering description of your arguments is accurate because your arguments are so awesome they couldn't possibly be accurately described in an unflattering manner. We did have this exchange though:
That's a bit different than what you said. But thanks for the personal shot! It lets me know you're not really that interested in discussion with me here.
  #191  
Old 06-21-2019, 11:23 AM
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I guess I've seen you type "that's not an accurate representation of my argument" so many times, I snapped. Sorry about that, old bean.
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Old 06-21-2019, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Budget Player Cadet View Post
Wait did Pelosi say something about this?

Biden?

Booker?

Schiff?

Bennie Thompson? Lauren Underwood? (Chair and vice-chair of the U.S. House Committee on Homeland Security, who have oversight power over DHS.)

Literally any sitting (or running) democrat other than AOC?

Because if so that's certainly germane to the question in the OP.

If not, consider that we have already had this very silly conversation and that this is coming from historians, not the DNC. Any claim that this is first and foremost about partisan gamesmanship should wait until the political party that would benefit from it has maybe a bit more than one member sounding the alarm.
No, you are right...as far as I know, only AOC has pushed this. I shouldn't have said Dems, since, afaik, most Dems have condemned this. My bad. I'm just riled. Also, I haven't seen the Dems pushing for more funding and expansion of services. Congress can do that, seeing as how they control the purse strings. And the Dems SHOULD be pushing for it. Hell, I think at least some Pubs would be behind it. We need to be spending several billion more on fixing this issue and expanding our abilities as this flood isn't going to stop any time soon. And we SHOULD be looking at ways to address the core issue, namely the domino effect happening because Venezuela is melting down, millions are fleeing to neighboring countries and those countries were shaky economically already. The US needs to be bolstering those countries, offering aid and funding, and doing a lot more. Not much we can do about Venezuela as I see it, but there is a lot we could do for the other nations affected by this cluster fuck.
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  #193  
Old 06-21-2019, 11:39 AM
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Justice Department thinks that soap, toothbrushes beds or blankets for detained children aren't necessary. A government lawyer argued that sleeping on a cold concrete floor with the lights on is "safe and sanitary".
  #194  
Old 06-21-2019, 12:04 PM
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What name would you choose over "concentration camp" for shit like this? What name would make you feel better?
  #195  
Old 06-21-2019, 12:12 PM
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What name would you choose over "concentration camp" for shit like this? What name would make you feel better?
It's not about making me feel better. Know what I want? For someone to actually do something, instead of playing word games. That would make me feel better. Funding, expansion of personnel and facilities, perhaps efforts to address the core issue. Instead of fucking stupid word games. But it's all about those points, right? And silly crap about making me feel better, as if that's the real problem. Just have to package the term right because XT points out how stupid it is. Let's not worry about the actual issue, after all...just need to get him to agree it really is a 'concentration camp' and stop being so silly!
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  #196  
Old 06-21-2019, 12:26 PM
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They are concentration camps that need to be torn down. Letting them be called anything else allows those that support them to say that the problem isn't as bad as it really is, which isn't what you want, is it? This isn't a time to softpedal what is going on. This isn't a time to make what is actually happening to men, women and children seem less dire than it actually is.
Close the concentration camps.
  #197  
Old 06-21-2019, 12:29 PM
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Misguided or not, I think the use of the term 'concentration camp' is meant to spur action. It starts with professors X, Y and Z making some stuffy pronouncements, and nerdy liberal freshman congresspeople causing a flap. Hopefully it doesn't end with breathless History channel documentaries 20 years from now about the Trump Death Camps.
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  #198  
Old 06-21-2019, 12:54 PM
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Food supplier for Government detention centers-Lucrative
Food supplier for concentration camps-Potential Career Killer

The same goes for construction companies, guard companies, soldiers and(if they have a shred of decency left in their bodies) lawyers.
  #199  
Old 06-21-2019, 01:14 PM
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.What "you hear" and what was both explicitly meant and how the word is explicitly defined are two different things. You've been participating in the thread for a while now. You must have read all of the cites from historians who both define what is meant by a concentration camp and agree with the characterization that these are indeed concentration camps. So after all of that: why are you insisting on using a definition of concentration camp that you seem to have invented out of whole cloth?
Strange, since I pulled that definition from the link that iiandyiiii provided in post #91.
  #200  
Old 06-21-2019, 01:15 PM
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Food supplier for Government detention centers-Lucrative
Food supplier for concentration camps-Potential Career Killer

The same goes for construction companies, guard companies, soldiers and(if they have a shred of decency left in their bodies) lawyers.
So, you think it would be a good thing if only food suppliers who don't care about their reputation will take the contract?

I get what you're suggesting, I think - that calling them out as concentration camps will discourage people from participating. There's two problems with that. One is that many of these people are already on the payroll. That lawyer in the HuffPo article you linked didn't just get hired for this case. Maybe there'll be attrition over this, I guess. But the other problem is that it discourages good people from trying to fix it, because good people don't want to "fix" concentration camps. But maybe the second issue is a feature not a bug for you, as it requires good people to make a stark choice: no detention at all or the current system.

Last edited by CarnalK; 06-21-2019 at 01:17 PM.
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