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  #101  
Old 09-19-2019, 04:03 PM
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How exactly do you know that Brett Kavanaugh is the same today? No one can find a co-worker, male or female, who has a bad thing to say about him. The only dirt they could find was a maybe-something from 35 years ago. Even Ruth Bader Ginsberg has sung his praises.
Your points are things we must consider before saying that Kavanaugh has learned from his past behavior. It's complex. It's not simple. No two circumstances are the same, so we can't simply apply a black/white standard.

And of course, opinions will vary. And of course there will be partisanship, and accusations of partisanship. It's messy.
  #102  
Old 09-19-2019, 04:33 PM
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How exactly do you know that Brett Kavanaugh is the same today? No one can find a co-worker, male or female, who has a bad thing to say about him. The only dirt they could find was a maybe-something from 35 years ago. Even Ruth Bader Ginsberg has sung his praises.

So how exactly is Brett Kavanaugh the same?

The cognitive dissonance and double standards are amazing to behold.
When called out for his past behavior during his senate confirmation hearing, dude had a full blown meltdown and tried to make himself the victim, as well as being unnecessarily aggressive and hostile towards the senators doing their job. That right there was a glimpse of his true character, and it was sufficient to judge his worthiness of being on the Supreme Court bench.

Had Trudeau behaved like Kavanaugh did in response to these pics being exposed, absolutely no one would be on his side.

Had Kavanaugh fully owned up to what he did and apologized to the women he victimized as well as humbled himself, the argument that his past actions are no longer a reflection of who he currently is would actually hold water.

Furthermore, blackface isn’t on the same scale as sexual assault. The former is highly offensive and racist but (unless indicative of more egregious forms of racism) doesn’t harm anyone. Sexual assault undoubtedly harms someone.

Last edited by Warm blood; 09-19-2019 at 04:34 PM.
  #103  
Old 09-19-2019, 04:56 PM
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As some have tried to explain:

There is some nuance here, and room for interesting thought.
One needs to look at the events in question, as it is clear that two events in two countries involving two different individuals with very different circumstances are not "Exact same behavior"

Also, as has been pointed out, one should also look at the RESPONSE to the past behaviors/acts. Has there been sincere apologies? Has recent behavior show to a reasonable person that they have learned from the past bad acts?

Some call this "double standard", assuming that we must treat two acts identically, regardless of initial circumstances and present behavior. I disagree.
The news media and everyone has ‘forgotten’ about the Virginia KKK or blackface governor. In a week this will be forgotten. The nuance is how much does the ideology of the scoundrel align with the presses.
  #104  
Old 09-19-2019, 05:04 PM
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The news media and everyone has ‘forgotten’ about the Virginia KKK or blackface governor. In a week this will be forgotten. The nuance is how much does the ideology of the scoundrel align with the presses.
Well certainly I have seen the "Evil media is in the pocket of the horrible Liberals" meme in newspaper comment sites.

It does not make it true though.
  #105  
Old 09-19-2019, 06:34 PM
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Well certainly I have seen the "Evil media is in the pocket of the horrible Liberals" meme in newspaper comment sites.

It does not make it true though.


Which of course explains why this in on every major news media in Canada.

Do they really think we're that stupid, or are they really that stupid? The World Wonders.
  #106  
Old 09-19-2019, 07:29 PM
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Which of course explains why this in on every major news media in Canada.

Do they really think we're that stupid, or are they really that stupid? The World Wonders.
I've previously outlined how sown up our media is towards the Tories but if you have any doubt here is a historical recount in infograph form. Sadly, our "Legacy Media" is bought and paid for.

Last edited by orcenio; 09-19-2019 at 07:33 PM.
  #107  
Old 09-19-2019, 07:39 PM
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Every voter will decide for herself or himself if they find this offensive enough to affect their decision.

A lot of the coverage in the Canadian papers acknowledges that standards have changed over time. But every article, and Trudeau himself, acknowledged it is racist. Many of the articles complained of hypocrisy because Trudeau has been tough on other people who committed questionable acts.

In the long run, I don’t think this will make a big difference.
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  #108  
Old 09-19-2019, 07:49 PM
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The hyper partisans who hated Trudeau with a passion still hate Trudeau.

The rest of us are ready to move on to more substantive issues and policies.
It's also good to remember that there are partisans on all sides of this election. What's "no problem" to you might not be the same to someone who lives in different shoes... Let's not drown out the voices of those who feel the effects of Trudeau's past insensitives.

Good/bad... let it ride.

Last edited by orcenio; 09-19-2019 at 07:49 PM.
  #109  
Old 09-20-2019, 01:33 AM
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Who is Justin Trudeau today? Is their current behavior the same or different from their past behavior?

.... But who knows, maybe Scheer has grown up too. Too bad his words and actions don't indicate as such.
We know exactly that Trudeau is the same person. His dress-up in India proves it.

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Were these (there are 3 now) stupid, racist, irresponsible acts? Yes.

Is Trudeau a racist? No frick'n way.
So the acts were racist, but he isn't racist...? Or is he just a reformed racist now? Can we do better than a reformed racist as PM? Apparently not.

The fact that he didn't think this was wrong in 2001 just emphasizes what a mental lightweight this guy is.
  #110  
Old 09-20-2019, 06:57 AM
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The fact that he didn't think this was wrong in 2001 just emphasizes what a mental lightweight this guy is.
I think his statement that his acts came from a "place of privilege" is the truth. Look, I'm hardly in love with Trudeau as PM. But I'm not so much voting for Trudeau as not voting for Scheer. We don't have great choices this election, so I'm going with the least objectionable. While Trudeau may have some past actions that are bad, so does Scheer. But at least I know what Trudeau will do policy-wise for the country. It is hard to trust Scheer because of the way he's acting. I'm very concerned about the kind of policies Scheer would put in place that would turn back the clock in Canada. Scheer is no Trump. He isn't even a Doug Ford, but he worries me. Especially on climate change, and social progress.

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  #111  
Old 09-20-2019, 07:10 AM
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Ultimately, the Liberal party policies are more in line with what I want to see than the CPoC policies. Both leaders are pretty meh personally. As with others, I feel that it is the CPoC that left me behind more so than I left them. I voted PC more than any other party. I voted for Harper, twice. I'm not exactly some hyperpartisan Liberal supporter.

Last edited by BeepKillBeep; 09-20-2019 at 07:11 AM.
  #112  
Old 09-20-2019, 07:40 AM
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...But every article, and Trudeau himself, acknowledged it is racist. Many of the articles complained of hypocrisy because Trudeau has been tough on other people who committed questionable acts.
The only thing this stupidity has going for it is a possible cessation of Liberal "leaks" about other party candidate flaws/foibles/marginal associations with currently noted "bad people".

I mean I doubt it, but dare to dream.
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  #113  
Old 09-20-2019, 03:29 PM
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Every voter will decide for herself or himself if they find this offensive enough to affect their decision.

A lot of the coverage in the Canadian papers acknowledges that standards have changed over time. But every article, and Trudeau himself, acknowledged it is racist. Many of the articles complained of hypocrisy because Trudeau has been tough on other people who committed questionable acts

Yup, Trudeau could walk down Yonge Street with a Chainsaw reducing unemployment one person at a time, and people would have no problem with it.

If the Kabuki theater bothers people, they won't vote for him. The rest of the country has already drunk the koolaid, and would vote for him no matter what, being more worried about Sheer being the Canadian incarnation of D. Trump. The Electoral facts still are unchanged, 40 percent will vote Lib and 40 percent will vote Con regardless. The twenty percenters and the total voter turnout will determine this one.

I would simply ask all Canadians, had Trudeau been clean and another one of his MP's guilty of this, what do you believe would be the result. My belief is that MP would be tossed and his or her liberal ticket would have been pulled, say you think differently.
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  #114  
Old 09-20-2019, 04:24 PM
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I saw a poll today showing the Liberals down by half a percentage point, with some gains by the Conservatives and NDP.

The Conservatives who found Trudeau hypocritical and inexperienced will continue to do so. The environmentalists are already looking at the Greens. Some will switch their vote, I think the NDP will benefit most. Most Liberals are either partisan or feel they are the best of a motley choice. I would guess this will not move the needle too much. Obviously, every voter will make a decision.
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  #115  
Old 09-20-2019, 04:25 PM
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Yup, Trudeau could walk down Yonge Street with a Chainsaw reducing unemployment one person at a time, and people would have no problem with it.

If the Kabuki theater bothers people, they won't vote for him. The rest of the country has already drunk the koolaid, and would vote for him no matter what, being more worried about Sheer being the Canadian incarnation of D. Trump. The Electoral facts still are unchanged, 40 percent will vote Lib and 40 percent will vote Con regardless. The twenty percenters and the total voter turnout will determine this one.
That's right, every single person who would vote Liberal in the upcoming election is just stupid and has "drunk the coolaid".

That's it. Thanks for your nuanced political opinion.
  #116  
Old 09-20-2019, 04:35 PM
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That's right, every single person who would vote Liberal in the upcoming election is just stupid and has "drunk the coolaid".

That's it. Thanks for your nuanced political opinion.
They already drank the koolaid back in 2015, but i apologize if i offended you.
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  #117  
Old 09-20-2019, 04:36 PM
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I saw a poll today showing the Liberals down by half a percentage point, with some gains by the Conservatives and NDP.

The Conservatives who found Trudeau hypocritical and inexperienced will continue to do so. The environmentalists are already looking at the Greens. Some will switch their vote, I think the NDP will benefit most. Most Liberals are either partisan or feel they are the best of a motley choice. I would guess this will not move the needle too much. Obviously, every voter will make a decision.


I thought the NDP was only fielding 138 ridings this go around, they simply could not afford more.
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  #118  
Old 09-20-2019, 04:38 PM
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They already drank the koolaid back in 2015, but i apologize if i offended you.
No offence taken. Not my party.

I'm just always amazed at folks who are so invested in their party that they are able to easily categorize anyone with a different take on things as a lesser human.

But go for it, if you like.
  #119  
Old 09-20-2019, 05:20 PM
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Not sure the number of NDP candidates, but there are only competitive in selected ridings, and some switched to the Greens.

If Trudeau wins a minority government I think these latest escapades will harm him internationally more than domestically. Canada arguably has a bit of a preachy, do-gooding reputation in some quarters, and this can only undermine that.
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  #120  
Old 09-20-2019, 07:52 PM
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That's right, every single person who would vote Liberal in the upcoming election is just stupid and has "drunk the coolaid".
Pretty much. Being the son of PET and having good hair is the only reason this person is still in the running. Anyone else other than the chosen one would be out on the street. If this was Scheer he'd have been drawn and quartered and we'd never hear from him again. But this PM can break the law, claim that he is 'woke' while kicking out of his caucus strong female and aboriginal people who attempted to do the right thing, and act in a clearly racist manner yet gets a pass. The hypocrisy is entirely expected.
  #121  
Old 09-21-2019, 11:48 AM
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Pretty much. Being the son of PET and having good hair is the only reason this person is still in the running. Anyone else other than the chosen one would be out on the street. If this was Scheer he'd have been drawn and quartered and we'd never hear from him again. But this PM can break the law, claim that he is 'woke' while kicking out of his caucus strong female and aboriginal people who attempted to do the right thing, and act in a clearly racist manner yet gets a pass. The hypocrisy is entirely expected.
Your sincerity of your hatred of Trudeau is certainly not in question. I'm sure you hated Trudeau very much before, and your hatred has not abated recently, nor will it ever lessen.

I'm not sure if your hatred of Trudeau (and of his father, apparently) is enough of a policy position to get others to vote for the Conservative party though.
  #122  
Old 09-21-2019, 12:14 PM
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Your sincerity of your hatred of Trudeau is certainly not in question. I'm sure you hated Trudeau very much before, and your hatred has not abated recently, nor will it ever lessen.

I'm not sure if your hatred of Trudeau (and of his father, apparently) is enough of a policy position to get others to vote for the Conservative party though.
I was just coming on to post the same thing.

The CPoC supporters in this thread (and elsewhere) are doing a great job proving me right to continue to withhold my support for the CPoC. This is not a conservative party that I can get behind. I find that quite a few CPoC supporters sounds very Republican. That's definitely not what I want for Canada. So while Trudeau's personal flaws suck, and I hate to vote for him, I don't really have much of a choice if I want reasonable, traditional policies for the country.

Last edited by BeepKillBeep; 09-21-2019 at 12:15 PM.
  #123  
Old 09-21-2019, 12:22 PM
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The most recent argument seems to be sort of like:

"Trudeau is not as racially tolerant or feminist supporting as he would have you believe. Therefore you should vote for a party that does not care about tolerance or sexism. At least they are not hypocrites."

Or maybe I'm just reading between the lines too much, and it's the same as last week: "I hate Trudeau and so should you"
  #124  
Old 09-21-2019, 12:32 PM
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The most recent argument seems to be sort of like:

"Trudeau is not as racially tolerant or feminist supporting as he would have you believe. Therefore you should vote for a party that does not care about tolerance or sexism. At least they are not hypocrites."

Or maybe I'm just reading between the lines too much, and it's the same as last week: "I hate Trudeau and so should you"
I hate posting memes, but this is a pretty good summary I think.

https://www.reddit.com/r/onguardfort...eer_on_social/

This is not exactly but kind of my point with respect to who they are and what they'll do for the country, versus who they might have been.

Trudeau is a child of privilege, and he's not somebody I would want as a friend or hang out with. I don't think we would get along very well. However, policy wise, Scheer has stood and continues to stand for things that I oppose. If I thought Trudeau the "racist" was going to implement racist policies, then I wouldn't vote for him. I'd probably vote ... frak I don't even know at that point. But I can be absolutely 100% certain Trudeau isn't going to drift the country to the modern right. That's good enough for me. The modern right needs to come back to the center on social issues more before I can support them again. And that won't happen while the conservatives choices are the Reform party (sorry CPoC) and the PPC. Bring back the PC party!!

Also, economically, Canada is doing ok. GDP to dept ratios are about where they've been since Harper (even gone down slightly). Unemployment is good. Basically, most of the indicators that matter are doing fine. So while his opponents like to characterize him as spending like a drunken sailor, such rhetoric doesn't influence me.

But yeah, I'm some hyperpartisan who has drunk the Kool-aid. Whatever.

Last edited by BeepKillBeep; 09-21-2019 at 12:37 PM.
  #125  
Old 09-21-2019, 02:45 PM
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Pretty much. Being the son of PET and having good hair is the only reason this person is still in the running. Anyone else other than the chosen one would be out on the street. If this was Scheer he'd have been drawn and quartered and we'd never hear from him again. But this PM can break the law, claim that he is 'woke' while kicking out of his caucus strong female and aboriginal people who attempted to do the right thing, and act in a clearly racist manner yet gets a pass. The hypocrisy is entirely expected.
That’s exactly right. It’s completely hypocritical and is yet another data point that the left weaponizes so-called outrage over certain behaviors for political reasons. The historical context being, the answer to the question of “is the subject in question nominally an ideological ally?”
  #126  
Old 09-21-2019, 02:56 PM
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It works like this: All good Liberals know that Andrew Scheer is a racist, so if a picture of him in blackface came out it would reinforce his racism and make him unelectable.

But Trudeau isn't a racist, so any past evidence of racist activity is either wrong, or misconstrued, or irrelevant, or a positive since it shows that he has 'grown', since he's obviously not a racist.

This is how people rationalize the things they want to believe.
  #127  
Old 09-21-2019, 03:43 PM
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Oh, for fuck's sake.

Andrew Scheer is not a racist. There is no evidence that he's a racist. He does avoid condemning fringe elements of the conservative movement who are racist (as evidenced by the Faith Goldy interview, etc), but no sane person thinks he actually supports those views. He is, however, a social conservative. There is good evidence that he personally opposes equal rights for sexual minorities. He promises that such issues will not be re-opened, and any reasonable person believes him on that score because he'd be an idiot to do that. However, it is not unreasonable for someone who cares about equal rights for sexual minorities to want the leader of the country to actually support equal rights for sexual minorities. Scheer is probably also personally in favour of restrictions on abortion. Again, he promises not to revisit the issue of abortion, and reasonable people believe this promise. However, it is not unreasonable for someone who cares about abortion rights to want the leader of the country to actually support such rights.

Trudea is also not a racist. He's out of touch and privileged, and frequently a dipshit. However, there is good evidence that despite his too frequent idiocy that he actually sincerely supports things like equal rights for sexual minorities and abortion rights, and socially liberal issues general. It is not unreasonable for a social liberal to prefer someone who sincerely supports their policy preferences on such issues in spite of all too frequent social faux pas and a record of past behaviour that shows that he hasn't always practiced what he preaches over a sincere social conservative who opposes their policy preferences even with a believable promise not to initiate any socially conservative legislation (at least on a couple of key issues.)

Add in Scheer's absolutely 100% guaranteed regression on climate policy, various economic promises that guarantee cuts to government services, and the general vagueness of the Conservative policy platform, and it ought to be perfectly clear how a liberal-ish voter can come to the conclusion that Trudeau is preferable to Scheer without positing a giant portion of hypocrisy.
  #128  
Old 09-21-2019, 03:55 PM
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It works like this: All good Liberals know that Andrew Scheer is a racist, so if a picture of him in blackface came out it would reinforce his racism and make him unelectable.

But Trudeau isn't a racist, so any past evidence of racist activity is either wrong, or misconstrued, or irrelevant, or a positive since it shows that he has 'grown', since he's obviously not a racist.

This is how people rationalize the things they want to believe.
No, I don't think Scheer is a racist. I don't think his policies would be good for the country. But you go on telling me and those like me what we think. Apparently you know better than me what I think.


But that apparently makes me someone who "drank the Kool-aid"

I do believe that Scheer does not think gay people should be allowed to have basic rights like the right to marry each other. Because he said so. And he has never said anything different. And I really don't like that.

Last edited by Euphonious Polemic; 09-21-2019 at 03:56 PM.
  #129  
Old 09-21-2019, 03:56 PM
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It works like this: All good Liberals know that Andrew Scheer is a racist, so if a picture of him in blackface came out it would reinforce his racism and make him unelectable.

But Trudeau isn't a racist, so any past evidence of racist activity is either wrong, or misconstrued, or irrelevant, or a positive since it shows that he has 'grown', since he's obviously not a racist.

This is how people rationalize the things they want to believe.
I don't think Scheer is a racist. I do think he wants the racist vote though. And that's a problem.

I think with the emergence of the PPC, you're going to see the CPoC turn even harder to the right to recapture those voters. And that's a problem

At least for me. YMMV.
  #130  
Old 09-21-2019, 04:00 PM
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Oh, for fuck's sake.

Andrew Scheer is not a racist. There is no evidence that he's a racist. He does avoid condemning fringe elements of the conservative movement who are racist (as evidenced by the Faith Goldy interview, etc), but no sane person thinks he actually supports those views. He is, however, a social conservative. There is good evidence that he personally opposes equal rights for sexual minorities. He promises that such issues will not be re-opened, and any reasonable person believes him on that score because he'd be an idiot to do that. However, it is not unreasonable for someone who cares about equal rights for sexual minorities to want the leader of the country to actually support equal rights for sexual minorities. Scheer is probably also personally in favour of restrictions on abortion. Again, he promises not to revisit the issue of abortion, and reasonable people believe this promise. However, it is not unreasonable for someone who cares about abortion rights to want the leader of the country to actually support such rights.

Trudea is also not a racist. He's out of touch and privileged, and frequently a dipshit. However, there is good evidence that despite his too frequent idiocy that he actually sincerely supports things like equal rights for sexual minorities and abortion rights, and socially liberal issues general. It is not unreasonable for a social liberal to prefer someone who sincerely supports their policy preferences on such issues in spite of all too frequent social faux pas and a record of past behaviour that shows that he hasn't always practiced what he preaches over a sincere social conservative who opposes their policy preferences even with a believable promise not to initiate any socially conservative legislation (at least on a couple of key issues.)

Add in Scheer's absolutely 100% guaranteed regression on climate policy, various economic promises that guarantee cuts to government services, and the general vagueness of the Conservative policy platform, and it ought to be perfectly clear how a liberal-ish voter can come to the conclusion that Trudeau is preferable to Scheer without positing a giant portion of hypocrisy.
Exactly.
  #131  
Old 09-21-2019, 06:14 PM
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Recently, Mr. Scheer has started to let us know his plans to pay for his promised $9 billion in tax cuts and program spending. One method will be by cutting $1.5 billion from annual subsidies to Canadian corporations.

No details on exactly what "subsidies" he will cut that would amount to $1.5 billion annually. Has anyone heard any details on this? Probably not cuts to oil corporations - that would not go over well in Alberta. He mentioned "economic development programs", but also said he would protect regional economic-development agencies.

He did give some examples like the $12-million subsidy the government gave grocery giant Loblaw to buy more energy-efficient coolers, as well as money for energy-efficient gas turbines for the Canada LNG project in British Columbia. So it seems that one thing on the chopping block would be anything with the words "energy efficient" in the title.

However, just yesterday, Scheer promised 1.5 billion for new medical imaging equipment across the country. So I guess we are back at square one again, and we don't know how he'll pay for his other promises and tax cuts.

Like all elections, I simply can't believe all the promises from any politician. But Scheer seems to be going all out with the goodie giveaway promises.
  #132  
Old 09-21-2019, 06:23 PM
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Recently, Mr. Scheer has started to let us know his plans to pay for his promised $9 billion in tax cuts and program spending. One method will be by cutting $1.5 billion from annual subsidies to Canadian corporations.

No details on exactly what "subsidies" he will cut that would amount to $1.5 billion annually. Has anyone heard any details on this? Probably not cuts to oil corporations - that would not go over well in Alberta. He mentioned "economic development programs", but also said he would protect regional economic-development agencies.

He did give some examples like the $12-million subsidy the government gave grocery giant Loblaw to buy more energy-efficient coolers, as well as money for energy-efficient gas turbines for the Canada LNG project in British Columbia. So it seems that one thing on the chopping block would be anything with the words "energy efficient" in the title.

However, just yesterday, Scheer promised 1.5 billion for new medical imaging equipment across the country. So I guess we are back at square one again, and we don't know how he'll pay for his other promises and tax cuts.

Like all elections, I simply can't believe all the promises from any politician. But Scheer seems to be going all out with the goodie giveaway promises.
I believe that the Economic development programs are the overseas ones in Africa and other parts of the world. Your question regarding the energy efficient projects, I believe that if they can be walked back without too much penalty, they will.
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  #133  
Old 09-21-2019, 06:56 PM
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I believe that the Economic development programs are the overseas ones in Africa and other parts of the world. Your question regarding the energy efficient projects, I believe that if they can be walked back without too much penalty, they will.
Ah. So he's really talking about overseas aid and encouragement for energy efficiency. I was wondering why the corporate sector, especially the oil patch was quiet about this promise.
  #134  
Old 09-21-2019, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic View Post
Your sincerity of your hatred of Trudeau is certainly not in question. I'm sure you hated Trudeau very much before, and your hatred has not abated recently, nor will it ever lessen.

I'm not sure if your hatred of Trudeau (and of his father, apparently) is enough of a policy position to get others to vote for the Conservative party though.
I recognized Trudeau for what he was when I first saw him. Now, the evidence confirms it.

Also, you do realize that most people don't vote for Trudeau directly? Nothing stops anyone voting for Liberals if JT is given the boot, as he should be. Liberals can still be in power with any number of people better qualified to lead them than this idiot. Frankly, there are millions of people in Canada of a similar age who have never put on blackface, nor would have considered it appropriate to do so in 2001 and would make a better PM.

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Originally Posted by BeepKillBeep View Post
Unemployment is good. Basically, most of the indicators that matter are doing fine.
But yeah, I'm some hyperpartisan who has drunk the Kool-aid. Whatever.
Unemployment in Alberta a couple % above the national average and no help from Trudeau. Well over a 100000 jobs lost and nothing, while a few plant jobs in Oshawa is a national disaster and the non-job loss of SNC was worry enough for him to break the law and demonstrate how willingly he would sacrifice inclusiveness when it came to potential votes. So, yes, you drank the koolaid.

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Originally Posted by Gorsnak View Post
Trudea is also not a racist. He's out of touch and privileged, and frequently a dipshit.
....and it ought to be perfectly clear how a liberal-ish voter can come to the conclusion that Trudeau is preferable to Scheer without positing a giant portion of hypocrisy.
Yet the hypocrisy is obvious. If it was Scheer, he'd likely be gone, yet Trudeau isn't. He blames privilege for his lapse, but it wasn't that. It was 2001 not 1970. He wanted to play dress-up and did so. He knew it was wrong to do so, as the vast majority of people did even then (other than the obvious neanderthals that people like JT deride). If privilege was involved it made him think he was above having to make the choice between what was, even to him obviously wrong, and what he wanted to do.
Exactly like every other choice he has made as PM. Caveat: Other than the pipeline purchase. I expect after the election we'll finally see that written off, especially if he achieves a minority gov. He can then blame the decision on the NDP or Greens, etc.
  #135  
Old 09-21-2019, 07:34 PM
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Anyone has checked out JT's new facebook profile image? Christ. Is his campaign manager secretly a writer for "The office?"
  #136  
Old 09-21-2019, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Uzi View Post
I recognized Trudeau for what he was when I first saw him. Now, the evidence confirms it.
Yes, you really have convinced me that you hate Trudeau with the passion of a thousand burning suns.

I'm sorry that he caused 40 years of Conservative provincial governments in Alberta to stick their heads in the sand and refuse to diversify the economy and rely on a single industry that undergoes definite ups and downs, depending on world oil price.
  #137  
Old 09-21-2019, 08:26 PM
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I like Trudeau, and still do. But it’s tough to know who to vote for. I’d have liked it far more if Trudeau had stuck to the original budget. I don’t care about PR, the Aga Khan visit, or what politicians wear (Stampede hat, jet-ski clothing, costume in India). The brown face is quite embarrassing and will offend many, but is hardly “the roof caving in”, as reported today.

I do care about policy, though. Canada needs infrastructure, and getting it when money is cheap makes sense. The Infrastructure Bank seems to have had very limited success. The pipeline purchase seems inefficient as it does not address many of the problems. It is hard to identify the biggest priorities, but returning the pension age to 65 reverses a politically tough and economically reasonable decision. Hard working dairy farmers lost an additional 3-4 percent of market share in free trade negotiations, perhaps they deserve compensation?

Trudeau has some progressive ideas and successes on American relations and trade. No one made him raise expectations on an ambitious set of goals, and the sunny ways have seen their share of cumulonimbus clouds. However, the competition have not yet articulated much of what I hope to hear about infrastructure, budget restraint and other reforms. Canadian political parties seem to prefer not giving specifics for as long as possible and not challenging vested interests even when doing so might be surprisingly popular.
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  #138  
Old 09-21-2019, 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic View Post
Yes, you really have convinced me that you hate Trudeau with the passion of a thousand burning suns.
Why does my dislike for him matter to you? Are my facts incorrect? Am I wrong in my conclusions?

Quote:
I'm sorry that he caused 40 years of Conservative provincial governments in Alberta to stick their heads in the sand and refuse to diversify the economy and rely on a single industry that undergoes definite ups and downs, depending on world oil price.
NP. Send back the transfer payments and we'll call it a wash. <crickets> Hey, even showing a little concern and caring might be nice. But when it comes to a few autoworkers loosing jobs everyone freaks out. A little hint here: Gas powers those cars. Magic pixies don't make the gas, ya know.

Last edited by Uzi; 09-21-2019 at 08:29 PM.
  #139  
Old 09-21-2019, 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Uzi View Post

Yet the hypocrisy is obvious. If it was Scheer, he'd likely be gone, yet Trudeau isn't. He blames privilege for his lapse, but it wasn't that. It was 2001 not 1970. He wanted to play dress-up and did so. He knew it was wrong to do so, as the vast majority of people did even then (other than the obvious neanderthals that people like JT deride). If privilege was involved it made him think he was above having to make the choice between what was, even to him obviously wrong, and what he wanted to do.
Exactly like every other choice he has made as PM. Caveat: Other than the pipeline purchase. I expect after the election we'll finally see that written off, especially if he achieves a minority gov. He can then blame the decision on the NDP or Greens, etc.
I dislike Trudeau. I thought when the Liberals chose him as leader that it was a dumb choice, because I thought he was entirely style over substance. Not being a member of the party, I didn't get a say - and of course had I been a member my vote would have been outweighed anyways. During the last campaign and in the early days of his mandate I was cautiously optimistic, because in spite of my impression of him as a lightweight with no real leadership skills his stated opinions aligned very well with my own policy preferences. Time has proven my initial assessment correct, that he is indeed style over substance.

His numerous gaffes, of which this blackface episode is the latest, have very little impact on my assessment of him. They are largely not particularly important. I really don't give a flying fuck what he wore on a state visit to India, for example. I acknowledge that his sartorial choices were somewhat daft, but they 1) are not very important, and 2) just confirm my opinion that he's a lightweight who's mostly style over substance. That doesn't move the needle, because that's where the needle already is.

I am far more disappointed over his failure to deliver on various promises. I would have liked to have seen more effort on the electoral reform issue. He has failed to achieve substantial progress on the plight of indigenous communities, aside from issuing formal apologies for everything under the sun (most of which merited apologies, but ffs let's have some action instead.) He has been far more profligate with spending than he promised he would be. And then there's the whole SNC affair, which demonstrates significant disrespect for rule of law.

And yet, in spite of those things, his government has generally moved the country in a direction I approve of. He's completed negotiations on CETA and TPP, both of which were both difficult and important. And he managed to walk the line on NAFTA with about as much success as could be expected - I certainly thought we'd have to cave a lot more in negotiations to avoid Trump throwing a tantrum and beginning a formal NAFTA withdrawal.

On the other hand, we have Scheer, whose policy platform outside of not being Justin Trudeau has been maddeningly vague.

I'm very confident he'll do nothing to end dairy supply management, so I guess there's that. Except that I'm in favour of ending dairy supply management, not that it's any kind of priority.

Well, okay, we also know that he's opposed to the carbon tax. Except that I'm in favour of it, because it's the proper free market economic solution to the problem of a significant negative externality. I guess Scheer was asleep that day in Econ 101, because his vague policy of regulating large polluters in some way, not clear on the details (I mean he isn't clear, not that I have failed to understand what he has said), is the textbook example of big government regulations that will be inefficient in achieving their desired goal and likely to result in negative unintended consequences. The knots that conservatives have tied themselves into on this issue stagger my mind, frankly. They've finally admitted that there's a problem, but now that the Liberals have adopted the orthodox conservative economic solution to the problem, the Conservatives insist on opposing it in favour of some cockamamie bullshit.

And he's going to get some pipelines built, which I'm not opposed to, really, but I am curious as to how he's going to accomplish it in the face of the various court decisions and the opposition of the BC government. Obviously he's not going to ignore the courts or anything, because unlike Trudeau we know that he respects the rule of law (or is that only relevant with respect to corruption charges against Quebec construction companies?)

And he's promised more fiscal responsibility. Why, he's going to balance the budget in just a couple years, or by the end of his term at least. And he's going to give us a big tax cut. And he's going to spend a bunch of money on medical imaging equipment (which is actually a good idea - kudos on that one). Which means he's going to have to cut about 20 billion/year in federal spending. I would kind of like to know which 20 billion he intends to cut before I sign off on this plan, but maybe that's just me.

He's promised not to re-open divisive social issues, but he has simultaneously refused to retract old statements opposed to legal gay marriage, etc. And to be blunt, anyone who thinks that my thoroughly wonderful nextdoor neighbours shouldn't be married to each other can fuck right off. This happens to be an issue I feel just as strongly about as you feel about oilpatch jobs. Possibly more strongly. I don't care that he's not going to re-open the issue. His personal views are that my neighbours shouldn't have a legally recognized marriage. Fuck. Off. Now, if my local CPC candidate or one of his volunteers comes to my door and assures me that he does personally support LGBQT equal rights, I would rescind this disqualifying mark. This has not yet happened, though there's still time.

And that's about as much of a platform as Scheer has. I don't know what the Conservative position is on immigration, or foreign affairs, or crime prevention, or indigenous affairs, or marijuana legalization, or a myriad of other issues, except that Trudeau has fucked all those things up and they're going to make it right again.

So, I've got a choice. On the one hand, there's a jackass leading a party whose policy positions I generally approve of, and whose governance has proven generally acceptable, jackassery notwithstanding. On the other hand, there's a mostly unknown quantity who seems not to be a particular jackass but whose few stated policy positions I mostly disagree with, some of them vehemently. Please do elaborate on how choosing the former means I must obviously approve of the jackassery.
  #140  
Old 09-21-2019, 09:55 PM
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Please do elaborate on how choosing the former means I must obviously approve of the jackassery.
Well, you shouldn't have to choose. The Liberal party should dump the idiot which would allow you to vote for them with a clear conscious. That they continue to support him means that they are willing to talk the talk, but not walk the walk, so why take them seriously and give them your vote? It's not like there is a hell of a difference between the parties when they are running the country. And I agree about Scheer. Who is this guy and why can't parties pick people who have charisma and competence? Does it have to be mutually exclusive or lacking in both?!
  #141  
Old 09-21-2019, 10:48 PM
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Well, fact of the matter is that I intend to vote for the incumbent NDP MP in my riding, but not because I'd want the NDP to form the government. She's been a decent MP, and the elements of the NDP platform I disagree with (like various anti-trade BS) are in no danger of being implemented. The Liberals haven't yet nominated anyone here (last I checked, might have by now I guess) and I'd like for there to be more non-Conservative Saskatchewan voices in Parliament, because we small-l liberal Saskachewanians are woefully underrepresented in Ottawa.
  #142  
Old 09-21-2019, 11:05 PM
Euphonious Polemic is online now
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Well, you shouldn't have to choose. The Liberal party should dump the idiot which would allow you to vote for them with a clear conscious.
Well, I wish I had a pony too.

We have to work with the hand we are dealt, not the one we wish we had.

Gorsnak's comments above are well considered and VERY well stated. I find myself in agreement with the entire post.
  #143  
Old 09-21-2019, 11:51 PM
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We have to work with the hand we are dealt, not the one we wish we had.
The only recourse you have is to not vote for them. Otherwise, you are condoning his breaking the law and racism.
  #144  
Old 09-22-2019, 12:28 AM
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The only recourse you have is to not vote for them. Otherwise, you are condoning his breaking the law and racism.
- I'm not voting for Trudeau. He's not in my riding. He is the leader, but he is not the entire party. We're not the United States.

- I am not aware that Trudeau has been convicted of breaking a law. This is new information for me.

- I do not believe that Trudeau is racist. I think he made some bone-headed moves in the past, and the latest "revelations" that have come out during an election have not made me think he is a racist. A privileged twit who did stupid things without thinking of how they might be taken by others, yes. Someone who has apparently learned from his stupid behaviour, yes.

- Please read Gorsnak's very good post. Then read it again - it sums up very nicely my thoughts, and voting intentions.
  #145  
Old 09-22-2019, 12:44 AM
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Trudeau is lately pissing me off, and I agree that he's a lightweight and represents style over substance, and even his "style" is riddled with gaffes.

He had my support for about five seconds recently when he announced, rather sanctimoniously but correctly, that retired people deserve to live comfortably and he was therefore going to increase the non-contributary OAS pensions -- for those over 75! WTF? Apparently those who are retired but nowhere near 75 can be as uncomfortable as they want, he doesn't care. I hate announcements like this that are purely feel-good symbolism, that sound like they're actually doing something but are crafted to minimize costs and benefit only a tiny minority of the population. The way it will probably affect me is that it's likely to raise my taxes so Trudeau can pay for this boondoggle.

FTR, I couldn't care less about the "brownface" revelations. I care about substantive issues and after a glitzy start following the election he hasn't delivered much, and managed to piss off both China and Saudi Arabia, the latter through the particularly naive and stupid blunder of publicly chastising them over human rights.
  #146  
Old 09-22-2019, 01:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic View Post
- I'm not voting for Trudeau. He's not in my riding. He is the leader, but he is not the entire party. We're not the United States.


- I am not aware that Trudeau has been convicted of breaking a law. This is new information for me.

- I do not believe that Trudeau is racist. I think he made some bone-headed moves in the past, and the latest "revelations" that have come out during an election have not made me think he is a racist. A privileged twit who did stupid things without thinking of how they might be taken by others, yes. Someone who has apparently learned from his stupid behaviour, yes.

- Please read Gorsnak's very good post. Then read it again - it sums up very nicely my thoughts, and voting intentions.[/QUOTE]
  #147  
Old 09-22-2019, 01:47 AM
Uzi is offline
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Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic View Post
- I'm not voting for Trudeau. He's not in my riding. He is the leader, but he is not the entire party. We're not the United States.
Thanks for pointing out what I pointed out earlier. In any case, you would be showing the Liberal party that they should be concerned about his lack of judgement.

Quote:
- I am not aware that Trudeau has been convicted of breaking a law. This is new information for me.
You must have missed this: https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...watchdog-rules

Quote:
- I do not believe that Trudeau is racist. I think he made some bone-headed moves in the past, and the latest "revelations" that have come out during an election have not made me think he is a racist. A privileged twit who did stupid things without thinking of how they might be taken by others, yes. Someone who has apparently learned from his stupid behaviour, yes.
What has he learned? A drama teacher doesn't know the history of his profession and understands the issues with blackface? He was 29

Quote:
- Please read Gorsnak's very good post. Then read it again - it sums up very nicely my thoughts, and voting intentions.
Why do you continue to say this? If that is all there is to debate on the matter why continue the discussion?
  #148  
Old 09-23-2019, 06:02 AM
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https://www.straight.com/news/130538...-canadas-prime

An article that sums up my attitude on Trudope.

Sent from my SM-N910U using Tapatalk
  #149  
Old 09-23-2019, 09:20 AM
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An article that sums up my attitude on Trudope.


And that one word right there sums up why I've abandoned the modern Conservatives parties. Take a look at this thread. We've got a lot of right-leaning people for whom the entire election seem to turn on Trudeau, and who are making only ad hominem attacks against both him and the people who may be voting for him. No discussion of policy, no context, nothing at all of substance.

Then compare it to everyone posting about why they won't vote for Scheer. No one is trying to come up with a cutesy insulting nickname. Lots of people have posted exactly why they oppose Scheer's policies, and why the support Trudeau's policies, even if they don't particularly like Trudeau himself as a person.

Despite all the Conservatives talking about people "drinking the Koolaid", it's painfully clear which side of this discussion is actually thinking about things clearly, and it isn't the conservative side.
  #150  
Old 09-23-2019, 09:51 AM
Euphonious Polemic is online now
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A few things are quite important to me during this election;

- Who will take climate change seriously and propose concrete actions to reduce our Greenhouse gas emissions. I'm talking about an actual plan, and actual steps to be taken that make sense. Anyone with science deniers in their party is not likely to get my vote.

- Who will take the federal debt seriously. At the very least, who will keep the debt-GDP ratio constant or diminishing? Promises of tax cuts here, and more goodies there are all well and good, but simply cutting taxes and adding to the debt is not attractive to me. Who has the right balance? As a Canadian, I'm not overly impressed with promises of "more money in your pocket", if that comes at the expense of cutting important services for all of us in this country. Of course, nobody wants to talk about what services they will cut during an election season - but a gaping hole in the budget due to tax cuts will have to be made up somehow.

Who will be able to strike that fine balance that is so very necessary on the world stage these days? With the United States being an unreliable ally now, and countries like China becoming more powerful, it's important that Canada is seen to be a friend (and reliable trading partner) to as many countries as possible. It will be increasingly important to diversify both our economy and our trading partners in the world. We can no longer rely on selling raw goods to only one customer.
This is a very tough task.
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