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  #251  
Old 10-03-2019, 09:19 PM
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Who cares? Well I mean obviously some people care but there is nothing that says the perfectly legal dual citizen status has any bearing on being the leader of a party.

For the record I also thought these were stupid objections when people went after Michaelle Jean.
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  #252  
Old 10-03-2019, 09:21 PM
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I’m with Paul Wells. What a waste of an election https://www.macleans.ca/politics/ott...eral-election/
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  #253  
Old 10-03-2019, 09:28 PM
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Who cares? Well I mean obviously some people care but there is nothing that says the perfectly legal dual citizen status has any bearing on being the leader of a party.
Who cares - that is the point. I really doubt most Canadian's would care given how he gained the citizenship, his plan to renounce it and his entire background. But what I care about is knowing why he is hiding all that. It is a relevant detail if you want to be Canada's PM. First the continual lying about being a broker - now this. Deceitful for no reason. His handlers must have known during this election people might, you know, check his background and ascertain a few things.
  #254  
Old 10-03-2019, 09:37 PM
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It’s not relevant. It’s also obvious that if a child has a parent from another country, in Canada they can have dual citizenship. This is not a new or sudden development right? I can only imagine he has had this citizenship state for a number of years.

As for deceptions, neither Liberal or Conservative has any real moral high ground here.
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  #255  
Old 10-03-2019, 09:46 PM
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Let voters decide if its relevant to them. It isn't to me - but the deceit certainly is. The stupidity is too - because he obviously made a mistake in assuming he could keep this hush hush.
  #256  
Old 10-03-2019, 09:56 PM
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So Scheer is a dual American whose only explanation about not disclosing that tidbit is no one has ever asked him about it.

Seriously - I mean wouldn't a reasonable person assume that might be a relevant detail voters would like to know if you're applying to be the top leader in Canada?
I thought it was bullshit when Stephan Dion felt it necessary to renounce his French citizenship, which I don't remember him publicly disclosing before it came out. What did you think?

Last edited by CarnalK; 10-03-2019 at 09:58 PM.
  #257  
Old 10-03-2019, 11:56 PM
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I thought it was bullshit when Stephan Dion felt it necessary to renounce his French citizenship, which I don't remember him publicly disclosing before it came out. What did you think?
I agree. I also thought it was bullshit when Elizabeth May was given grief over being born in the United States, even though this was never hidden, and she lost her US citizenship in 1978 (being the rule at the time, when she became a Canadian)

The problem is not someone's citizenship by birth. The problem is when this is hidden for expediency. Scheer's explanation of why he never said anything ("because nobody ever asked me") seems shallow to me, particularly when he made a huge deal out of Michelle Jean's dual citizenship.

This, to me, is the important part of this story. He gave someone grief for dual citizenship while maintaining silence about his own because "nobody asked me". This is duplicitous behaviour and I don't like it one bit.
  #258  
Old 10-04-2019, 06:30 AM
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I remember various right leaning people “having concerns” back when Jean was the GG, but I don’t remember Scheer specifically. I’m still trying to figure out why he owed it to anyone to publicly state his citizenship status. That lack of requirement would seem to undercut the “duplicity” factor but maybe not a hypocrisy one.
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  #259  
Old 10-04-2019, 07:33 AM
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Scheer said in a blog: "Does it bother you that she is a dual citizen (France and Canada)? Would it bother you if instead of French citizenship she held U.S. citizenship?"

I mean, look normally, this would be a nothing burger. I care much much much much much MUCH more about policy than these things except for the hypocrisy and the lying. He's lost the 3% I had given him earlier and back down to 0%.

https://twitter.com/GreatTweets247/s...138030592?s=20
  #260  
Old 10-04-2019, 07:51 AM
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Hoisted by his own petard.
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  #261  
Old 10-04-2019, 08:04 AM
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Hoisted by his own petard.
It is pretty funny. Look, for me, even the hypocrisy isn't that big a deal compared to policy. I know that every politician is an imperfect human. And I know that politicians lie. And they lie a LOT. I don't like that they lie a lot, but we all know they do. They say what they need to say to get into power. That's why I try to ignore these controversies and focus on policy, and assume I'll get about 67% of what they promise. But character does still matter a bit. The Trudeau blackface confirmed what we already knew about him. He's a privileged little sh!t. What makes this in some ways worse for Scheer is that he's made character the cornerstone of his campaign. If you're going to do that, then you better be sure your character is squeaky clean. And it isn't.
  #262  
Old 10-04-2019, 08:13 AM
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Scheer's insurance lie is small potatoes (well, mid-sized, since he claimed he was almost done). But the citizenship thing is hypocrisy. I don't care if he's a dual-citizen. I do care that he criticized other political figures for the exact same thing.

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Someone should have asked how, exactly, we reduce fossil fuel dependence across Canada. 18% of our power is tied to coal, natural gas and oil. I poked at the numbers and it looks like 4 Darlington nuclear plants (the current facility produces 3.5GW) would cover the gap. That would/should have been the big question for the Greens given their desire to dramatically increase out GHG targets.
Unfortunately, the green movement relies on emotions as well as facts, with the former often outweighing the latter. They would never go for new nuclear power plants.
  #263  
Old 10-04-2019, 08:37 AM
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I agree his dual citizenship is an irrelevance. The fact he hasn't mentioned it before is also irrelevant. His hypocrisy is not, and if he's a hypocrite, that, as Kimera points out, rather quickly closes up one of the only advantages he had over Trudeau.

I would further add that while I find a guy having a citizenship his parents got him as a child that he's never acted on to be completely uninteresting, it is plainly, stupidly obvious that it WOULD end up being an issue. It may be ridiculous and unfair that it's an issue, but it inevitably was going to be. Scheer was mind-bogglingly stupid to not air this out a long time ago.
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  #264  
Old 10-04-2019, 09:02 AM
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There's a lot of mind-bogglingly stupid going around.
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  #265  
Old 10-04-2019, 09:22 AM
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Watched the Singh Face to Face - Moderator was fairly level I thought. Seemed a broader group of of voters that were more confrontational of Singh than others. One in particular was basically a NDP member arguing about his leadership within the NDP itself. Liked the ex-oil patch guy but was a little disappointed with Singh's reply. Finally some Bill 21 questions but like other parties the reply seems awfully tepid. Did like the questions around how the NDP would reply to foreign challenges.

Interesting viewing.
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  #266  
Old 10-04-2019, 09:37 AM
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Watched the Singh Face to Face - Moderator was fairly level I thought. Seemed a broader group of of voters that were more confrontational of Singh than others. One in particular was basically a NDP member arguing about his leadership within the NDP itself. Liked the ex-oil patch guy but was a little disappointed with Singh's reply. Finally some Bill 21 questions but like other parties the reply seems awfully tepid. Did like the questions around how the NDP would reply to foreign challenges.

Interesting viewing.
I have it recorded but I didn't get a chance to watch it yet. Probably tonight or over the weekend.
  #267  
Old 10-04-2019, 10:34 AM
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There's a lot of mind-bogglingly stupid going around.
Well, of course there is. It's an election. Worse, it's a fairly low-stakes election.
  #268  
Old 10-04-2019, 11:24 AM
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As a US Citizen Scheer has registered for the US Draft.

So many novel questions arising out of Mapleface.
- Did Scheer vote for Hillary, Trump or does he actually support voter apathy? Did he ever contribute donations to American political parties?
- I understand that as a Canadian political leader he shouldn't comment on American politics - but speaking as an American taxpayer - does he support President Trump?
- If the US invaded Canada (hey, it been known to happen) - could a Prime Minister Scheer be drafted to fight against Canada?
  #269  
Old 10-04-2019, 12:38 PM
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The campaign specifically mentioned that he's never voted in a American election. I doubt he's paid any American taxes either, even though the campaign also specifically said he filed every year.
  #270  
Old 10-04-2019, 01:16 PM
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- If the US invaded Canada (hey, it been known to happen) - could a Prime Minister Scheer be drafted to fight against Canada?
Since we've reached the ridiculous portion of this thread I'll just nit pick that the US invaded the British colonies of Upper and Lower Canada and not the Dominion of Canada.

God this can't end soon enough.
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  #271  
Old 10-04-2019, 03:34 PM
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I agree his dual citizenship is an irrelevance. The fact he hasn't mentioned it before is also irrelevant. His hypocrisy is not, and if he's a hypocrite, that, as Kimera points out, rather quickly closes up one of the only advantages he had over Trudeau.

I would further add that while I find a guy having a citizenship his parents got him as a child that he's never acted on to be completely uninteresting, it is plainly, stupidly obvious that it WOULD end up being an issue. It may be ridiculous and unfair that it's an issue, but it inevitably was going to be. Scheer was mind-bogglingly stupid to not air this out a long time ago.
I agree with all of that. The fact that Scheer was able -- with a straight face -- to criticize Michaëlle Jean for her dual citizenship is a revealing insight into the workings of his mind, and it's not a very reassuring one (his party also criticized Stephane Dion and others for the same thing). It is, in fact, an insight that fits perfectly with his misrepresentations about his "insurance" background: the guy is simply not trustworthy.
  #272  
Old 10-04-2019, 06:44 PM
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Doesn't any party do a background check of their candidates at least at the stage of them running for the party leadership? How hard is it to hire a private investigation firm and vet the candidates? Out of 37M people in Canada this is the best our political parties can do?
  #273  
Old 10-04-2019, 08:15 PM
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I don’t personally care if a politician has double citizenship as long as their loyalty is to Canada. But it seems like something that the party should know about their candidate.

To run for high office takes a degree of money and megalomania. A candidate does not need to have lived a perfect and boring life. I’d settle for great policy. I’ve not seen this from any party.
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  #274  
Old 10-04-2019, 10:48 PM
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Doesn't any party do a background check of their candidates at least at the stage of them running for the party leadership? How hard is it to hire a private investigation firm and vet the candidates? Out of 37M people in Canada this is the best our political parties can do?
Personally, I actually think we've had a pretty good last four years and I so like this Justin...

Judging from news today out of Burnaby - I don't think the Conservative party has considered the importance of vetting. A minimal amount of checking would have dragged up dirt on this former candidate.

Per 338's projection this riding is a toss-up against the Liberals. I believe it is too late to set up a new candidate so they might be conceding a western seat with this announcement.

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  #275  
Old 10-05-2019, 08:49 AM
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The Conservatives had problems like this in 2015 too. One of their MPs had worked as a plumber (or a similar job), and worked on a sink while the house owner was away. He needed to take a leak, and decided to do that in the sink! He wasn't the only candidate caught doing something moronic, of course. Many candidates were caught saying stupid or prejudiced things on social media. The Conservatives call this "bimbo eruptions".

All parties have their share of morons, but this election we have the leaders of the two largest parties not cooperating with their vetting. (Trudeau was too embarrassed to admit to the brownface beforehand, which meant he had kept that hidden for several elections. Scheer has been caught on two issues so far.)

I heard a joke (which might not be a joke) that in the future, the only successful politicians will be people who never used social media, except, I guess, Linkedin. Apparently people simply cannot stop posting stupid stuff on social media.
  #276  
Old 10-05-2019, 09:01 AM
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So at this point I can't reward the allowed ethical lapses by the Liberals with a vote. I can't reward the Conservatives with a vote since they've opted to continue to ignore climate change, revert to spending as much as the Liberals and appear far to attached to the less savoury parts of their base. Which leaves protest votes but the NDP has no sense of the need for a strong federal centre in a big federation like ours, would seems to be weak on foreign policy and overall budgeting. The Greens have some of the same problems as well as being unable to explicitly state how to achieve their key targets that are in excess of the current one we're not meeting.

I forget, do spoiled ballots get counted by Elections Canada?
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  #277  
Old 10-05-2019, 09:40 AM
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So at this point I can't reward the allowed ethical lapses by the Liberals with a vote. I can't reward the Conservatives with a vote since they've opted to continue to ignore climate change, revert to spending as much as the Liberals and appear far to attached to the less savoury parts of their base. Which leaves protest votes but the NDP has no sense of the need for a strong federal centre in a big federation like ours, would seems to be weak on foreign policy and overall budgeting. The Greens have some of the same problems as well as being unable to explicitly state how to achieve their key targets that are in excess of the current one we're not meeting.

I forget, do spoiled ballots get counted by Elections Canada?
You do have the option of voting for your individual candidates instead of the party. Learn a bit about the people who will actually be representing you, and choose the one you think will do the best job. Their views don't always line up perfectly with their party's, and electing candidates whose views differ somewhat from their party's mainstream is how you shift party platforms.
  #278  
Old 10-07-2019, 01:56 PM
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Doesn't any party do a background check of their candidates at least at the stage of them running for the party leadership? How hard is it to hire a private investigation firm and vet the candidates? Out of 37M people in Canada this is the best our political parties can do?
After years of this, I just have to conclude that no. They don't do this.

The thing is, who's going to do it? Andrew Scheer (or any other leader) wasn't hired like an employee; there wasn't a recruiting manager in HR doing background checks. He was voted for by the members. Prior to that, who's supposed to vet him?
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  #279  
Old 10-07-2019, 02:44 PM
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After years of this, I just have to conclude that no. They don't do this.

The thing is, who's going to do it? Andrew Scheer (or any other leader) wasn't hired like an employee; there wasn't a recruiting manager in HR doing background checks. He was voted for by the members. Prior to that, who's supposed to vet him?
The riding association or higher up in the party organization. Why wouldn't they? Unlike in the states, the party can control who runs under their banner. The problem is that candidates don't always cooperate and there's only so invasive you can go.
  #280  
Old 10-07-2019, 07:46 PM
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Watching the English debates and of the the love of fucking god shoot me now.
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  #281  
Old 10-07-2019, 08:45 PM
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After years of this, I just have to conclude that no. They don't do this.

The thing is, who's going to do it? Andrew Scheer (or any other leader) wasn't hired like an employee; there wasn't a recruiting manager in HR doing background checks. He was voted for by the members. Prior to that, who's supposed to vet him?
The party, when he put in his nomination papers for his first election. And, the party should do a follow-up check with each nominee with each subsequent general election.

But ultimately, the parties have limited powers to check that. If you've got four or five individuals seeking the nomination in a riding, does the riding association have the resources to do a deep dive on each one? They don't have the investigative powers of Time magazine or the G&M.

And then you get the candidate who has blackface a skeleton in his closet and is too "embarrassed" to reveal it, thereby breaking the rules of his own party. Should the riding association assume that each candidate is "embarrassed" and not giving a forthright answer? Or should they assume all candidates are being forthright? Would they rather put their limited resources into private investigator fees, or campaigning?

There's not an easy answer.
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  #282  
Old 10-07-2019, 09:34 PM
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Remember when the Tories revoked a candidate last election because the news found out that he was a performance artist who ran as part of his act. Or the urinator! Ha! Good God. The urinator. That was gold.
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  #283  
Old 10-07-2019, 09:36 PM
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The answer is to use the same oppo people used against your opponents, and have them run checks on your guy with the same vigor they use against opponents. Make their pay or a large bonus contingent on their opponents not discovering something before the election that they missed, so they are suitably motivated. Make it an automatic part of the process for becoming leader of the party.

I am surprised they aren't doing this or something like it already.
  #284  
Old 10-07-2019, 09:53 PM
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I saw a little bit of the debate, but find them unwatchable. Hard to believe many people base their decisions on these. Too many people on stage. Too little time to give substantive answers. Leading questions. Too many sound bites and lots of posturing.
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  #285  
Old 10-08-2019, 11:33 AM
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I see that Scheer's strategy in the debate was as expected; Attack Trudeau personally, and hope that everyone else hates Trudeau as much as he does. This seems to be the main policy platform of the Conservative Party now.
  #286  
Old 10-08-2019, 04:19 PM
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It wasn’t surprising that Scheer would attack Trudeau, nor that he would retaliate, nor that the NDP candidate would proffer himself as a third alternative.

From a debating perspective, Scheer came off better than I would have thought. Trudeau kept his cool, didn’t talk much and stuck to talking points. Singh easily did the best of all, but I don’t attach much importance to a debate. I like politics, but these things are unwatchable. I heard they got Singh’s name wrong three times.

The PPC candidate has some courageous policies. I don’t agree with them, but his opponents played the man and not the puck, arguing against “straw policies” more extreme than stated. This took a lot of time and so probably benefited the Liberals. If even 3% of the vote goes there, that will hurt Scheer.
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  #287  
Old 10-08-2019, 04:32 PM
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I confess I did not watch the debate - just caught up on some of the post-analysis. I don't think I would have come away more informed if I had watched it though...
  #288  
Old 10-08-2019, 04:33 PM
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I watched the first 90 minutes of the debate and then sat on the remote and accidentally shut off the tv. I may not have seen the remote as I had gouged out my eyes about 15 minutes in. In retrospect, I should have pulled a Van Gogh instead.

Unrelated to the debate, my father received a mailer from the Conservatives addressed to “The Fins Family” and suggested that as Jews the Tories are the only option. My father was very offended and feels that the Tories are suggesting that Jews have dual loyalties.
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Old 10-08-2019, 04:41 PM
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I watched the first 90 minutes of the debate and then sat on the remote and accidentally shut off the tv. I may not have seen the remote as I had gouged out my eyes about 15 minutes in. In retrospect, I should have pulled a Van Gogh instead.

Unrelated to the debate, my father received a mailer from the Conservatives addressed to “The Fins Family” and suggested that as Jews the Tories are the only option. My father was very offended and feels that the Tories are suggesting that Jews have dual loyalties.
Wait what? The Conservatives are sending mailers out that target specific religions, that tell you how your specific religion should vote? Are you positive this was a real mailer, and not a hoax by some other party? Yikes.
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Old 10-08-2019, 04:46 PM
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Wait what? The Conservatives are sending mailers out that target specific religions, that tell you how your specific religion should vote? Are you positive this was a real mailer, and not a hoax by some other party? Yikes.
It’s real. It was couched in similar terms to a Trump piece about being the Tories being a “Friend of Israel”, unlike the other parties rather than as an ultimatum but implied that good Jews support them.
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Old 10-08-2019, 05:08 PM
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It’s real. It was couched in similar terms to a Trump piece about being the Tories being a “Friend of Israel”, unlike the other parties rather than as an ultimatum but implied that good Jews support them.
Wow. I can't see that working very well for the Conservatives.

(pet peeve; the "Tories" died out years ago. The current party is a coalition of the Reform party and the old Progressive Conservatives)
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Old 10-08-2019, 06:28 PM
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Conservatives plan on moving the embassy to Jerusalem.
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  #293  
Old 10-08-2019, 06:31 PM
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Conservatives plan on moving the embassy to Jerusalem.
And they think that as a Jew I have to vote for them now. They would be wrong.
  #294  
Old 10-08-2019, 06:49 PM
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Conservatives plan on moving the embassy to Jerusalem.
They're going to finally come through on Joe Clark's promise? I shall hold my breath in anticipation!
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Old 10-08-2019, 09:55 PM
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You’ll wind up blue in the face...Conservative blue I’d guess.
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  #296  
Old 10-10-2019, 07:36 AM
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Remember when the Tories revoked a candidate last election because the news found out that he was a performance artist who ran as part of his act. Or the urinator! Ha! Good God. The urinator. That was gold.
Don't forget this fucking genius. The UniCaller Tim Dutaud

He was dropped just hours after the Urinator.

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Old 10-10-2019, 12:58 PM
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I have to agree that this is probably the least motivated I've ever felt to vote. And I've voted in every election (at every level) in which I've been eligible. I consider it an important civic duty, but it really feels like all the choices are bottom of the barrel, except Singh who has really surprised me. But he's NDP. I wish he was the Liberal leader.
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Old 10-10-2019, 03:49 PM
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K364 is offline
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Yep. Normally you hold your nose and vote. This time I'm holding nose, plugging ears, and covering eyes.
  #299  
Old 10-10-2019, 05:12 PM
Euphonious Polemic is offline
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I'm thinking that all the Conservative strategy is going to accomplish at this point is to increase their winning margins in places like Alberta and Saskatchewan, where the voters really REALLY hate Trudeau. And that's the #1 issue. In those places.
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Old 10-10-2019, 09:09 PM
Horatius is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic View Post
I'm thinking that all the Conservative strategy is going to accomplish at this point is to increase their winning margins in places like Alberta and Saskatchewan, where the voters really REALLY hate Trudeau. And that's the #1 issue. In those places.

Yep. The only reason they're even close on a national level is that they're winning Alberta and the Prairies by a HUGE margin, but they're trailing in Ontario, Quebec and the Atlantic provinces by enough that they'll likely lose most of those seats. And there's no way they can form a government just with those western provinces. BC looks to be a coin flip at the moment.

You can find the comparisons here:

https://newsinteractives.cbc.ca/elec...racker/canada/

Scroll down for the regional breakdown, and look at the last two month's worth of polls.

It's also interesting to compare the 6 month to 2 month data for Ontario. The Conservatives have been losing support pretty steadily.
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