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  #101  
Old 09-24-2019, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnT View Post
Jake Sherman, Politico:



https://twitter.com/JakeSherman/stat...283184640?s=20

"Hotlining" is bypassing usual Senate rules. Here's a definition:



http://www.howdemocracyworksnow.com/glossary/hotline

So:

1. MoscowMitch is moving soon as to make sure the Repubs don't break on this and he can get this voted down, or...
2. MoscowMitch is beginning the dance of separation

Time will tell...
Passed unanimously. The GOP is running?

Last edited by Fiveyearlurker; 09-24-2019 at 03:31 PM.
  #102  
Old 09-24-2019, 03:37 PM
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?

You linked to the Jake Sherman tweet I linked to. Did you mean to link somewhere else?
  #103  
Old 09-24-2019, 03:38 PM
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https://twitter.com/StevenTDennis/st...95517570203651
  #104  
Old 09-24-2019, 03:40 PM
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Wow. It's a non-binding resolution, but it's something.

And, thanks.

Last edited by JohnT; 09-24-2019 at 03:42 PM.
  #105  
Old 09-24-2019, 03:42 PM
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Also, this:
https://twitter.com/ChrisMegerian/st...95123574104064
  #106  
Old 09-24-2019, 04:58 PM
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At the very least, Rudy should be disbarred.
  #107  
Old 09-24-2019, 05:05 PM
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Here’s a fairly concise summary from NPR.

https://www.npr.org/2019/09/24/76350...tions-answered

I keep thinking about the whole Bill Browder/ Russia / Magnisky situation as I follow this story. I read Browder’s book before Trump was ever a serious presidential candidate, and Ive also read a lot of other material about corruption in the former USSR countries.

Browder was an American businessman doing business in Russia He and his companies were defrauded framed for a serious financial crime in a brazen and far-ranging plot that resulted in him losing all his investment in Russia. His local lawyer, Serge Magnitsky, was murdered in a Russian prison after being arrested on false charges. There were lots of corrupt prosecutors and government official among the people sanctioned by the Magnitsky Act.

I was outraged, when, in a press conference with Putin, Trump indicated that he might be willing to extradite Browder. And I’m outraged that Trump seems to be trying to engineer a similar plot against an American citizen, someone that he is supposed to be protecting and serving.

I don’t understand how anyone can be so blinded by partisan hate to equate a plan to have a private citizen persecuted by a notoriously corrupt government with justice and fairness. They probably are the same people that think that forming a joint task force with Russia to investigate election interference would be a good idea.

Last edited by Ann Hedonia; 09-24-2019 at 05:06 PM.
  #108  
Old 09-24-2019, 05:09 PM
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A long, factual piece by Ryan Goodman (@rgoodlaw) on JustSecurity laying out a detailed timeline of the Ukraine story.
  #109  
Old 09-24-2019, 06:56 PM
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Passed unanimously. The GOP is running?
Blood in the water. They smell it.

If it goes away, they'll go back into 'Protect Trump at all costs' mode. But if Trump makes this worse for himself (and there's always that possibility), they may be willing to deep-six him.

A lot depends on the major donors. If enough of them quietly let on that they'll support the Republican incumbents against Trumpian primary challengers, then those Republicans will act against Trump.

It's a slim chance. But not impossible.

(And yes: in the event, Trump will be re-defined as a Democrat, faster than you can say "money talks, integrity walks.")


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... I donít understand how anyone can be so blinded by partisan hate to equate a plan to have a private citizen persecuted by a notoriously corrupt government with justice and fairness. They probably are the same people that think that forming a joint task force with Russia to investigate election interference would be a good idea.
All that matters is winning.
  #110  
Old 09-24-2019, 07:37 PM
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Trump called Nancy Pelosi and... like a mob boss... asked her if they could "work something out".

No wonder the dominos fell this morning.

https://twitter.com/MSNBC/status/117...279913985?s=19
  #111  
Old 09-24-2019, 07:37 PM
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It's clear what Trump's strategy is with Biden, which is to make him the 2020 version of Hillary Clinton. I am in the camp that says the Democrats have no choice but to start an impeachment inquiry now, given the gross abuse of power. But the realist in me also sees how attention to this matter in particular could poison Biden's candidacy.

Remember, folks, Trump's line of attacks against Biden need not be representative of the facts as a whole; he just needs a kernel of truth to work with. The GOP and Trump managed to take Hillary Clinton's proximity to crime, proximity to bad people, and proximity to just bad luck, and they were able to weave a tapestry of lies and spin that sunk her candidacy. Biden's in the same position, and the Trump team sees that: they want to use the proximity to something dark and create confusion in the minds of voters.

Trump didn't beat Hillary because he was necessarily more popular; in fact he was less so. But he was able to convince enough people that Hillary was almost as evil as he was, and that kept people who would have supported Hillary away from the polls while Trump's energized voters showed up. That's the end game with Biden.
  #112  
Old 09-24-2019, 07:38 PM
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At the very least, Rudy should be disbarred.
That would be the very least, wouldn't it.
  #113  
Old 09-25-2019, 01:39 AM
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Trump called Nancy Pelosi and... like a mob boss... asked her if they could "work something out".

No wonder the dominos fell this morning.

https://twitter.com/MSNBC/status/117...279913985?s=19
For more on this ... https://twitter.com/KoriWasinger/sta...49847824355334

But wait! There's more: http://dctribune.org/transcript-reve...xtortion-plot/

https://twitter.com/ChickenSpaz/stat...01033046233088

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  #114  
Old 09-25-2019, 02:00 AM
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Huh. Is it too late for Trump to pull an Agnew-Ford switcheroo? I hope it is.
  #115  
Old 09-25-2019, 03:05 AM
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At the very least, Rudy should be disbarred.
Iím an opponent of capital punishment always and everywhere (and I do NOT exclude any executions that have been carried out throughout all of recorded history*), but the idea of Barr being disbarred carries a certain visceral appeal...


*(or Scripture)
  #116  
Old 09-25-2019, 07:30 AM
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I have my answer (IMO, this was a clear enough deed that voters, and not just politics junkies, would see the problem), so I may not return to this thread. If a mod wanted to shut this down, like all the rest of the pre-impeachment-inquiry threads, I would not object.
  #117  
Old 09-25-2019, 08:13 AM
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That's fair. I'll refrain from commenting further here and we can let it die the True Death w/o it being locked. Great topic!
  #118  
Old 09-25-2019, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by mjmlabs View Post

From this link:

Quote:
ďI mean, to invest additional taxpayer in Ukraine, the President wants to be assured that those resources are truly making their way to the kind of investments that will contribute to security and stability in Ukraine. And thatís an expectation the American people have and the President has expressed very clearly.Ē

This is proof positive of Pence admitting to precisely the same thing as Donald and Guiliani admitted to.
I disagree that this is proof positive of Pence admitting that. The quote in and of itself is actually reasonable. I am worried that since this did happen, it will be used as a way to distract from the actual thing Giuliani admitted to as far as asking Ukraine to look up dirt on Biden. They will point to it and say, "see the president was just looking out for the American people, to ensure their tax dollars are being spent wisely." It's almost like they planned this from the start.

This is their game plan.
  #119  
Old 09-25-2019, 08:54 AM
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My guess is that the deep state hacks are furious that their clients in Ukraine arenít getting their military aid.
  #120  
Old 09-25-2019, 08:59 AM
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That's odd- I thought the deep state ran everything and got whatever they wanted.
  #121  
Old 09-25-2019, 09:17 AM
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That’s an odd thing to think.
  #122  
Old 09-25-2019, 09:20 AM
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Why? What are you hearing?
  #123  
Old 09-25-2019, 09:41 AM
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My guess is that the deep state hacks are furious that their clients in Ukraine arenít getting their military aid.
You mean the "deep state hacks" in Congress who voted to give military aid to Ukraine?

That "deep state"?
  #124  
Old 09-25-2019, 10:10 AM
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You mean the "deep state hacks" in Congress who voted to give military aid to Ukraine?

That "deep state"?
No. The deep state hacks who think we are still in the Cold War and are all of a sudden conscientious “whistleblowers”.

The critters are probs mad too though.

Last edited by WillFarnaby; 09-25-2019 at 10:13 AM.
  #125  
Old 09-25-2019, 10:20 AM
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Would y'all like to read the transcript for yourselves?
If Trump thinks releasing this will exonerate him he is delusional.
  #126  
Old 09-25-2019, 10:39 AM
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Would y'all like to read the transcript for yourselves?
If Trump thinks releasing this will exonerate him he is delusional.
Wow, that sure looks bad. Although, as bad as it looks for Trump I think it looks even worse for Zelensky. He obviously figured out that fawning obsequiousness is the best way to get Trump to do what you want, but I doubt its going to go over too well with his people.

Last edited by Buck Godot; 09-25-2019 at 10:40 AM.
  #127  
Old 09-25-2019, 10:43 AM
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My last post here as the OP requested this one ends, but please stop calling it a "transcript" when the official document calls itself a "memorandum of a telephone conversation" and literally has a disclaimer saying that the document "is not a verbatim transcript".

Thank you.

https://twitter.com/PoliticusSarah/s...079185408?s=20
  #128  
Old 09-25-2019, 10:53 AM
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My last post here as the OP requested this one ends, but please stop calling it a "transcript" when the official document calls itself a "memorandum of a telephone conversation" and literally has a disclaimer saying that the document "is not a verbatim transcript".

Thank you.

https://twitter.com/PoliticusSarah/s...079185408?s=20
As bad as this memo already sounds, think how bad the actual transcript is?
  #129  
Old 09-25-2019, 10:54 AM
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My guess is that the deep state hacks are furious that their clients in Ukraine arenít getting their military aid.
WillFarnaby, you have been previously instructed to not include your hobby horses in unrelated threads.

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...8&postcount=21

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This is fair notice to you. I'm done with you interjecting your pet topic of statism or authoritarianism or the combination in unrelated threads, as well as passive aggressive denigrating the board. This goes for this thread, and all other threads in GD and Elections. I am bookmarking this post and If you do this again, you will be warned.
The quoted post certainly counts and, indeed, inspired a bit of a sidetracking of the thread.

Warning issued. We're serious about this. Don't do so again.
  #130  
Old 09-25-2019, 11:11 AM
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Wow, that sure looks bad. Although, as bad as it looks for Trump I think it looks even worse for Zelensky. He obviously figured out that fawning obsequiousness is the best way to get Trump to do what you want, but I doubt its going to go over too well with his people.
I'm guessing his sitcom, in which he merely played the Ukrainian President, wasn't nearly as absurd as reality has proven to be.
  #131  
Old 09-25-2019, 09:44 PM
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From this link: http://dctribune.org/transcript-reve...xtortion-plot/
Quote:
ďI mean, to invest additional taxpayer in Ukraine, the President wants to be assured that those resources are truly making their way to the kind of investments that will contribute to security and stability in Ukraine. And thatís an expectation the American people have and the President has expressed very clearly.Ē

This is proof positive of Pence admitting to precisely the same thing as Donald and Guiliani admitted to.
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Originally Posted by Fiddle Peghead View Post
I disagree that this is proof positive of Pence admitting that. The quote in and of itself is actually reasonable. I am worried that since this did happen, it will be used as a way to distract from the actual thing Giuliani admitted to as far as asking Ukraine to look up dirt on Biden. They will point to it and say, "see the president was just looking out for the American people, to ensure their tax dollars are being spent wisely." It's almost like they planned this from the start.

This is their game plan.
I don't disagree. Perhaps we can counter that with a bit more context [emphases in the below mine]:

Quote:
Pence stated that he and Ukraine President Zelensky ďdiscussed Americaís support for Ukraine and the upcoming decision the President will make on the latest tranche of financial support in great detail.Ē

It is worth noting here that Trump pulled a staggering $250 million in military aid to Ukraine around this time before immediately releasing it a single day later, as soon as the House caught on and penned a letter in which they stated that they would be opening an investigation into the sudden withholding of funds.

ďBut as President Trump had me make clear, we have great concerns about issues of corruption.Ē

Note here that, as far as could be determined by ours and other media outlets, this is the first time that Donald has ever mentioned corruption in a foreign country up until news of this scandal broke.

ďI mean, to invest additional taxpayer in Ukraine, the President wants to be assured that those resources are truly making their way to the kind of investments that will contribute to security and stability in Ukraine. And thatís an expectation the American people have and the President has expressed very clearly.Ē

This is proof positive of Pence admitting to precisely the same thing as Donald and Guiliani admitted to.
Remember how "adoptions from Russia" were code for "rescinding the Magnitsky Act" (which had led Russia to curtail American adoptions of Russian children)? Same tactic. Pence set up the "corruption = H. Biden smears" code before Trump's call, just to make sure Zelenskiy knew how to plat ball.

At least that's what I've heard. Many people are saying that. And I think when it all comes out you'll be very surprised; lotta things, some very bad things that, frankly, nobody ever thought they'd see. It's a disgrace.
  #132  
Old 09-26-2019, 07:06 AM
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I'm guessing his sitcom, in which he merely played the Ukrainian President, wasn't nearly as absurd as reality has proven to be.
In Ukraine, President plays YOU!
  #133  
Old 09-26-2019, 08:08 AM
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Wow, that sure looks bad. Although, as bad as it looks for Trump I think it looks even worse for Zelensky. He obviously figured out that fawning obsequiousness is the best way to get Trump to do what you want, but I doubt its going to go over too well with his people.
I'm not seeing the fawning by Zelensky:
Quote:
Trump continued to insist he did nothing wrong, and Zelensky, seated beside him during an awkward joint appearance at the United Nations in New York, described their July phone call as ďnormal,Ē saying, ďIím sorry, but I donít want to be involved to democratic open elections of U.S.A.Ē
The guy is almost literally between a rock and hard place with Russia on one side and Trump on the other. He needs the money and the military equipment. He is bewildered by Trumps mob style diplomacy, 'Nice country you have there President Zelensky. Shame if something were to happen to it.' He's inexperienced and probably not up to the job. But is he fawning? I don't see it. If anything, he's shining Trump on. It's the classic tactic you would use when dealing with a high conflict personality like Trump.
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  #134  
Old 09-26-2019, 08:12 AM
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I really get a kick out of the idea that Trump was merely fighting corruption. Trump, super hero, No Corruption Man. Don't bother with involving American intelligence outfits and law enforcement, instead have the Ukrainians look into things and report back!
  #135  
Old 09-26-2019, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by mjmlabs View Post
From this link: http://dctribune.org/transcript-reve...xtortion-plot/

I don't disagree. Perhaps we can counter that with a bit more context [emphases in the below mine]:


Remember how "adoptions from Russia" were code for "rescinding the Magnitsky Act" (which had led Russia to curtail American adoptions of Russian children)? Same tactic. Pence set up the "corruption = H. Biden smears" code before Trump's call, just to make sure Zelenskiy knew how to plat ball.

At least that's what I've heard. Many people are saying that. And I think when it all comes out you'll be very surprised; lotta things, some very bad things that, frankly, nobody ever thought they'd see. It's a disgrace.
"Many people are saying that." You just gave yourself away, Mr. Trump!

While I cannot know for sure at this point what more will come out, I do expect bad things will, and I won't be all that surprised. Unless it's something completely unfathomable. My original post was just to point out that erroneous statement. Nothing annoys me more when some pundit somewhere makes an obviously phony comment to serve some greater purpose, whether they are on the right or the left, and either leaves out important context or just outright lies. And I don't really see how the additional information supports the idea of Pence doing what Giuliani admitted to, that is, trying to get the Bidens investigated. But if Pence was involved it won't be a surprise to me.

Last edited by Fiddle Peghead; 09-26-2019 at 08:30 AM.
  #136  
Old 09-26-2019, 08:51 AM
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"Many people are saying that." You just gave yourself away, Mr. Trump!
"Many" means both Hannity and Carlson.
  #137  
Old 09-26-2019, 10:28 AM
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"Many" means both Hannity and Carlson.
Yeah, unless it's just the many voices inside the Trump's head.
  #138  
Old 09-26-2019, 10:57 AM
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I'm not seeing the fawning by Zelensky:


The guy is almost literally between a rock and hard place with Russia on one side and Trump on the other. He needs the money and the military equipment. He is bewildered by Trumps mob style diplomacy, 'Nice country you have there President Zelensky. Shame if something were to happen to it.' He's inexperienced and probably not up to the job. But is he fawning? I don't see it. If anything, he's shining Trump on. It's the classic tactic you would use when dealing with a high conflict personality like Trump.
Well, he said on TV that he wasnít pressured. He sat in front of a TV camera while Trump stared him down and claimed he didnít feel pressured. One of the most surreal things Iíve seen with this administration, rivaled only by Trump considering the extradition of Bill Browder in exchange for Russiaís help in combating election interference.
  #139  
Old 09-26-2019, 11:08 AM
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Yeah, that was something. And before it was clear that he was done speaking, Trump faced the cameras and declared "He was NOT pressured" or "No pressure" or some such. What a goon.
  #140  
Old 09-26-2019, 12:57 PM
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I may be giving Zelensky too much benefit of the doubt, but I still think he's keenly aware that in dealing with Trump he is handling a dangerous mental patient that has chewed his way out of his restraints. You want to avoid angering him as you slowly back out of the room.
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  #141  
Old 09-26-2019, 01:07 PM
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Zelensky also has extensive experience as a comic actor, even if this gig is improv, not scripted.
  #142  
Old 09-26-2019, 07:20 PM
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I may be giving Zelensky too much benefit of the doubt, but I still think he's keenly aware that in dealing with Trump he is handling a dangerous mental patient that has chewed his way out of his restraints. You want to avoid angering him as you slowly back out of the room.
Yep. You also don't want the headlines when you go home to say "President Zelensky lets Ukraine get pushed around by crazy American." That wouldn't be good for either himself or his country. His "I don't want to be involved" answer was pretty good for the moment and can be expanded upon later in more than a sound bite for a Ukranian journalist.
  #143  
Old 09-26-2019, 09:06 PM
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Zelensky also has extensive experience as a comic actor, even if this gig is improv, not scripted.
He played the President in a TV show where he was elected as a high school teacher who had a viral video about, get this - corruption in Ukraine.

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  #144  
Old 09-26-2019, 09:42 PM
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Well, he said on TV that he wasnít pressured. He sat in front of a TV camera while Trump stared him down and claimed he didnít feel pressured. One of the most surreal things Iíve seen with this administration, rivaled only by Trump considering the extradition of Bill Browder in exchange for Russiaís help in combating election interference.
I saw that footage. The poor guy looked like the hostage in a proof-of-life video. All he needed was an ISIS fighter kitted out with a balaclava and an AR-15 standing behind him to complete the picture.

Nope, nope, nope. Not pressured at all.
  #145  
Old 09-27-2019, 04:09 AM
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My last post here as the OP requested this one ends, but please stop calling it a "transcript" when the official document calls itself a "memorandum of a telephone conversation" and literally has a disclaimer saying that the document "is not a verbatim transcript".

Thank you.

https://twitter.com/PoliticusSarah/s...079185408?s=20
That disclaimer looks a lot like arse covering in the event there's an error. I would be surprised if there were any significant differences between what was recorded and what was said. The disclaimer itself states that staffers are specifically assigned to record the conversation. It reads as though it's as close to a transcript as you can get without physically recording the audio and transcribing it from that.

Last edited by Richard Pearse; 09-27-2019 at 04:11 AM.
  #146  
Old 09-27-2019, 04:22 AM
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That disclaimer looks a lot like arse covering in the event there's an error. I would be surprised if there were any significant differences between what was recorded and what was said. The disclaimer itself states that staffers are specifically assigned to record the conversation. It reads as though it's as close to a transcript as you can get without physically recording the audio and transcribing it from that.
Thatís probably true, and 99% of the time the difference between the two things in your last sentence wouldnít matter, but this time they just might. A single omitted word (not for nefarious reasons) could make all the difference for some on-the-fencers, in the voting public as well as in positions of power during the impeachment process.
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Old 09-27-2019, 05:07 AM
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For example, if in a phone conversation Trump talked about about getting dirt on H. Biden, Zelensky assenting, and then Trump talked about how the security assistance would be delivered soon, Republicans could spin this as simply changing to a different subject — but if the pivot started with the word “now” — e.g., “We’ll deliver that assistance soon” vs. “Now, we’ll deliver that assistance soon” — that little three-letter word could be a big deal, and could have been innocently omitted from the almost-a-transcript.

(Just to be clear, I don’t need to hear that “now” to deem this an impeachable offense, but some people might.)
  #148  
Old 09-27-2019, 05:33 AM
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My newspaper reports today that one part of the whistleblower's complaint states that a full verbatim transcript of the conversation was removed from the usual computer storage system and transferred to a high-security, limited access database.
  #149  
Old 09-27-2019, 05:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PatrickLondon View Post
My newspaper reports today that one part of the whistleblower's complaint states that a full verbatim transcript of the conversation was removed from the usual computer storage system and transferred to a high-security, limited access database.
Yes, that is a (likely) huge part of all this. Eric Swalwell well explained what we know so far during the questioning of McGuire yesterday. Clearly, multiple people privy to the call understood right away it was likely a serious ethical breach or worse. This undercuts much of the White House contention that the call was routine — AND in itself appears to be an unethical act (or worse), though probably not at Trump’s request.

Basically, Trump is too dumb to realize what he did was wrong. This is a sliver of hope for his supporters — that, unlike Nixon, Trump wasn’t part of the cover-up, because Trump never thought (and still doesn’t understand) that there was anything to cover up.

Personally, that scares me more — I’d rather have a self-aware crook in the White House than a complete and utter moron — but I guess it might make the cover-up portion of this incident less damning (to Trump) than otherwise, in the eyes of some.

Last edited by JKellyMap; 09-27-2019 at 05:47 AM.
  #150  
Old 09-27-2019, 01:49 PM
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Just had a thought:

Anybody think that from Putin's viewpoint, seeing his puppet go rogue, trying to get his vig off a shipment of weapons sent to kill Putin's expensive tanks and crews in alliance with Putin's enemy...

... you think Putin is pissed about this?
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