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  #151  
Old 09-27-2019, 01:49 PM
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I need something cleared up: Was the Ukraine money Trump was holding hostage ever released?
  #152  
Old 09-27-2019, 01:50 PM
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Just had a thought:

Anybody think that from Putin's viewpoint, seeing his puppet go rogue, trying to get his vig off a shipment of weapons sent to kill Putin's expensive tanks and crews in alliance with Putin's enemy...

... you think Putin is pissed about this?
Hell no. Remember: the ultimate goal was to destabilize the American government.
  #153  
Old 09-27-2019, 02:20 PM
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I need something cleared up: Was the Ukraine money Trump was holding hostage ever released?
Yes.
  #154  
Old 09-27-2019, 03:01 PM
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Just had a thought:

Anybody think that from Putin's viewpoint, seeing his puppet go rogue, trying to get his vig off a shipment of weapons sent to kill Putin's expensive tanks and crews in alliance with Putin's enemy...

... you think Putin is pissed about this?
It's not that he went rogue: Trump tried to block the aid to Ukraine for 7 months. It's just that when the pressure built to provide Ukraine with the support, Trump decided to use it as a chip to get something for himself. We have the president trying to bribe a foreign government (a crime) and he uses military aid paid for by American taxpayers to pay the bribe. What's amazing is how simple it all really is.
  #155  
Old 09-27-2019, 04:00 PM
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Just had a thought:

Anybody think that from Putin's viewpoint, seeing his puppet go rogue, trying to get his vig off a shipment of weapons sent to kill Putin's expensive tanks and crews in alliance with Putin's enemy...

... you think Putin is pissed about this?
How is this rogue? His puppet's main purpose was to be able to create chaos and distrust in the American electorate and diminish the US's reputation in the world.
Mission Accomplished. The gains there far outweigh whatever's happening from a military perspective.
  #156  
Old 09-27-2019, 04:06 PM
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What's amazing is how simple it all really is.
This to me is one of the most troubling things. For all the talk of "Constitution", "Nation of Laws", "Check and Balances", all it took is one lying, unscrupulous, sonofabitch to appeal to the worst demons of human nature, to jeopardize the entire Republic. It will probably survive, but not without scars that will last a generation. I just hope lessons will be learned. But I doubt it.
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  #157  
Old 09-27-2019, 05:35 PM
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This to me is one of the most troubling things. For all the talk of "Constitution", "Nation of Laws", "Check and Balances", all it took is one lying, unscrupulous, sonofabitch to appeal to the worst demons of human nature, to jeopardize the entire Republic. It will probably survive, but not without scars that will last a generation. I just hope lessons will be learned. But I doubt it.
That’s where we disagree, I don’t think we recover from Trump. His base will stick by him even though there is clear evidence he is corrupt. There will never again be a president that is acceptable to red and blue America. I think that the one thing that the Ukraine scandal will settle is that we are two different countries with different values and cultures.

Last edited by madmonk28; 09-27-2019 at 05:36 PM.
  #158  
Old 09-27-2019, 07:11 PM
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Thatís where we disagree, I donít think we recover from Trump. His base will stick by him even though there is clear evidence he is corrupt. There will never again be a president that is acceptable to red and blue America. I think that the one thing that the Ukraine scandal will settle is that we are two different countries with different values and cultures.
So Team Red and Team Blue?

It'd be interesting to guess how the schism will break down in terms of states, but I expect that's another thread.
  #159  
Old 09-27-2019, 08:27 PM
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So Team Red and Team Blue?

It'd be interesting to guess how the schism will break down in terms of states, but I expect that's another thread.
Pretty much. I think that Trump and the Ukraine scandal in particular, will put to rest the myth of America for good.
  #160  
Old 09-28-2019, 08:30 AM
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Thatís where we disagree, I donít think we recover from Trump. His base will stick by him even though there is clear evidence he is corrupt. There will never again be a president that is acceptable to red and blue America. I think that the one thing that the Ukraine scandal will settle is that we are two different countries with different values and cultures.
This, sadly, is how I feel. Even if Trump is impeached, removed from office and sent to federal sleepaway camp, we won't suddenly find his millions of devotees dazed and blinking, asking "what... where am I? Did I do a bad thing?"
  #161  
Old 09-28-2019, 11:23 AM
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This, sadly, is how I feel. Even if Trump is impeached, removed from office and sent to federal sleepaway camp, we won't suddenly find his millions of devotees dazed and blinking, asking "what... where am I? Did I do a bad thing?"
Not to sound trite, but itís like one of those internet memes, what color is the dress? or Do you hear Yanni or Laurel? Not only do the two sides not agree, they canít possibly understand the other sideís point of view.

Sadly, the one thing that I thought Biden offered was that he would be acceptable to a significant portion of Trumpís base. Before this blowup, he would have a legitimacy in the eyes of Trumpland in a way that no other Democrat could. Now, I think that is no longer possible.
  #162  
Old 10-01-2019, 09:25 AM
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This to me is one of the most troubling things. For all the talk of "Constitution", "Nation of Laws", "Check and Balances", all it took is one lying, unscrupulous, sonofabitch to appeal to the worst demons of human nature, to jeopardize the entire Republic. It will probably survive, but not without scars that will last a generation. I just hope lessons will be learned. But I doubt it.
You're talking about Clinton's perjury, right?
  #163  
Old 10-01-2019, 09:30 AM
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You're talking about Clinton's perjury, right?
I don't agree that Clinton's alleged perjury (he wasn't convicted, right?) jeopardized the entire republic, but this really seems off-topic in a thread about why the Ukraine call was the last straw.
  #164  
Old 10-01-2019, 09:41 AM
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Yes, it is.

Stay on topic.
  #165  
Old 10-01-2019, 09:42 AM
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I don't agree that Clinton's alleged perjury (he wasn't convicted, right?) jeopardized the entire republic, but this really seems off-topic in a thread about why the Ukraine call was the last straw.
Because false equivalency is about all they have left at this point.

Pretty pathetic I know, but there it is.
  #166  
Old 10-01-2019, 10:04 AM
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Thatís where we disagree, I donít think we recover from Trump. His base will stick by him even though there is clear evidence he is corrupt. There will never again be a president that is acceptable to red and blue America. I think that the one thing that the Ukraine scandal will settle is that we are two different countries with different values and cultures.
I believe they idolize him BECAUSE he is corrupt. They would love to skate around responsibilities and those pesky morals and ethics. But mostly, avoid the law.
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  #167  
Old 10-01-2019, 01:00 PM
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So Team Red and Team Blue?

It'd be interesting to guess how the schism will break down in terms of states, but I expect that's another thread.

The thing is, it won't break down "in terms of states". The Second American Civil War, should it come to pass, will have a lot more in common with the civil wars in Yugoslavia and Rwanda than it will the first US Civil War. It won't be North vs South or East vs. West or even Red Vs Blue. It will be one town vs another, one neighbourhood vs another. It won't be large military trained forces meeting on the field of battle, it will be local ad-hoc militias taking it on themselves to "fix the X problem" by turning on their neighbours.

Some people are of the opinion that we're already in the first stags of such a war, with the various Nazi vs Anti-fa clashes, and right wing terrorists shooting up mosques, synagogues and Walmarts full of Hispanic people.
  #168  
Old 10-01-2019, 03:37 PM
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The thing is, it won't break down "in terms of states". The Second American Civil War, should it come to pass, will have a lot more in common with the civil wars in Yugoslavia and Rwanda than it will the first US Civil War. It won't be North vs South or East vs. West or even Red Vs Blue. It will be one town vs another, one neighbourhood vs another. It won't be large military trained forces meeting on the field of battle, it will be local ad-hoc militias taking it on themselves to "fix the X problem" by turning on their neighbours.

Some people are of the opinion that we're already in the first stags of such a war, with the various Nazi vs Anti-fa clashes, and right wing terrorists shooting up mosques, synagogues and Walmarts full of Hispanic people.
Exactly. It will be Urban v. Rural. Inner city v. Suburbs. Educated v. Uneducated. Fact Based Reality v. Superstitious Conspiracy Theory.

It won't be pretty.
  #169  
Old 10-01-2019, 04:51 PM
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I believe they idolize him BECAUSE he is corrupt. They would love to skate around responsibilities and those pesky morals and ethics. But mostly, avoid the law.
Thatís what I think, too. Trump behaves the way they would if they could: assault women, cover everything in tacky gold leaf, and troll the libs. As for Ukraine, could you imagine their reaction if Obama had done any of this?
  #170  
Old 10-06-2019, 04:35 PM
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I mean, I get that it would take down any normal presidency, but I don't understand why people seem to be treating this like a bigger deal than all the other very unusual stuff that has gone on with this administration.

I'm trying very hard not to poison this well, but it seems like there has been some pretty obvious corruption, attempted obstruction of justice, election law violations, emoluments issues, personal enrichment (for example, removing some sanctions from a Chinese company right after the Chinese government makes a loan to the Trump organization), cozying up to dictators, throwing our allies under buses, ignoring congressional subpoenas, ignoring laws such as the requirement to cough up Trump's tax returns to congress, and probably other stuff I've missed. Let's just say that many norms have been violated, many things that would be lethal or nearly so to other administrations.

What makes this Ukraine/Biden/Trump thing different? Is there any chance it will change the mind of any Trump supporter, either regular supporters or in Congress? Does any Trump supporter here think this is a thing?
I think we might have to look at all of our parts in this dysfunctional society. Who howled when Obama took Bush's 2 wars to 7? We had kids in cages separated from parents at the border then too. We've plenty of examples of unprosecuted war criminals and "the law" violating "the law". Trump is a symptom of a society predicated upon an illusion.

Last edited by Fentoine Lum; 10-06-2019 at 04:36 PM.
  #171  
Old 10-06-2019, 09:00 PM
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I think we might have to look at all of our parts in this dysfunctional society. Who howled when Obama took Bush's 2 wars to 7? We had kids in cages separated from parents at the border then too. We've plenty of examples of unprosecuted war criminals and "the law" violating "the law". Trump is a symptom of a society predicated upon an illusion.
Can you describe what the heck this has to do with the subject of the OP? It seems like an off-topic rant against, I don't know, America? Something?
  #172  
Old 10-07-2019, 07:36 AM
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Can you describe what the heck this has to do with the subject of the OP? It seems like an off-topic rant against, I don't know, America? Something?
R's do it, D's do it
Even independent v.'s, do it


If you google the name, you may notice a theme...
  #173  
Old 10-07-2019, 07:44 AM
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Thanks for that. Since the last couple of times this thread was resurrected, it was for partisan potshots (not you VT!), and I already have my answer, I'm going to report my own post and ask for this to be closed.
  #174  
Old 10-07-2019, 07:45 AM
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R's do it, D's do it
Even independent v.'s, do it


If you google the name, you may notice a theme...
Except they don't. Otherwise you are correct.
  #175  
Old 10-07-2019, 09:00 AM
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Thanks for that. Since the last couple of times this thread was resurrected, it was for partisan potshots (not you VT!), and I already have my answer, I'm going to report my own post and ask for this to be closed.
That's probably best, but to get my last shot in:

The guiding principle for a sovereign state is to maintain strict control of its political processes, and this is true regardless if your state is a tribe, a democracy, a kingdom, a dictatorship, a theocracy, a city-state, an empire, Commmunist, Fascist, whatever. You have to have 100% control of the political processes which guide and protect your state and its future.

One can invite foreign actors to participate in the economic processes and remain sovereign. One can invite foreign actors to participate in the communication processes and remain sovereign. But one cannot invite foreign actors to participate in the political processes and remain sovereign.

Imagine if Hitler agreed to a pact with Stalin to divide Germany? That is, in effect, the deal Trump struck with Putin and is the basis of the deal he struck with Zelensky: to divide the United States of America.

Fuck him. Fuck his supporters. As far as I'm concerned, they can leave the country they no longer wish exists.

Last edited by JohnT; 10-07-2019 at 09:02 AM.
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