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  #51  
Old 09-25-2019, 09:47 AM
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Trump 2020: Im not quite as guilty as George Bluth!
Trump 2020: It wasn't technically Treason!
  #52  
Old 09-25-2019, 11:30 AM
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My preference is that politicos not use criminal law to settle political disputes. I don't think that's healthy for the country.
And its my preference that we not elect criminals who break laws in order to settle political disputes, which is also not healthy for the country, but we don't always get what we want.
  #53  
Old 09-25-2019, 12:08 PM
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It probably won't be. The Justice Department has decided to take the stance that he can't even be indicted (at least on federal charges) while he's in office. And after he's out of office, when Justice might be willing to pursue cases against him, he won't have any pardon power at all any more. The only way it could come up would be if, right before he leaves office, he pardons himself for "all of the crimes I have committed", but that would mean Trump admitting that he'd done wrong, which I can't see him doing, not even to save his own skin.
You might be right. I can't argue with your logic. I think it all depends on whether he can objectively process the pile of shit that he's at the bottom of. If I was him I might say "My number one job is to keep myself out of prison, so right before the door hits me in the butt I'm going to pardon myself. Maybe it works and maybe it won't, but it won't hurt me." Or he might say "I didn't do nothing wrong! Fake news! I don't need no steenking pardon!" So he may or he may not pardon himself. I'm betting that Ivanka talks him into it: "Daddy, I can't bear to see you go to jail. Make it stop!"
  #54  
Old 09-25-2019, 12:19 PM
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the President's pardon power is effectively unlimited (with the possible exception of pardoning himself, which has never been addressed by the Supreme Court).
At the federal level. He has no immunity from the State of New York.
  #55  
Old 09-25-2019, 02:14 PM
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... The only way it could come up would be if, right before he leaves office, he pardons himself for "all of the crimes I have committed", but that would mean Trump admitting that he'd done wrong, which I can't see him doing, not even to save his own skin.
Here is the wording from Nixon's pardon:

Quote:
Now, THEREFORE, I, GERALD R. FORD, President of the United States, pursuant to the pardon power conferred upon me by Article II, Section 2, of the Constitution, have granted and by these presents do grant a full, free, and absolute pardon unto Richard Nixon for all offenses against the United States which he, Richard Nixon, has committed or may have committed or taken part in during the period from January 20, 1969 through August 9,1974.
Notice the "or may have committed"? Doesn't seem to me like Nixon had to admit that he'd done wrong. What's to prevent President Trump from writing a pardon along the lines of "I grant a full, free, and absolute pardon unto myself for all offenses against the United States which I may be accused of having committed prior to noon on Jan. 20, 2024"?
  #56  
Old 09-25-2019, 02:16 PM
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If he and/or they are pardoned there will be riots. DC will burn. A lot of cities will burn.
"You better not, or else we'll burn our own cities down"

*shrug*
  #57  
Old 09-25-2019, 02:20 PM
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"...offenses against the United States which he, Richard Nixon, has committed... "
I like this part.
  #58  
Old 09-25-2019, 02:26 PM
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"Narrowly defined" is for suckers. Ask Mitch about changing the rules. Trump and his administration are a cancer. Chemotherapy is advised.
We're the Good Guys, we follow the law.
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  #59  
Old 09-25-2019, 03:18 PM
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I'd like to jump ahead a little and talk about after the endgame. Regardless of how Trump's administration ends, impeachment or election, there is going to be talk of pardons ala Nixon.

No. Absolutely not.

Assuming that the president has America's best interests as his priority is what got us here. We can no longer coast along on that assumption.
Trump, his family, and everyone in his administration need to be prosecuted for any laws they broke.
The main problem I see with this is, I would expect that Trump would pardon all of his family members and cronies on January 19, 2021 (or 2025, if he manages to get re-elected - after 2016, I try not to add words like "somehow" to statements like that). You are not going to get a court to say that the pardons are invalid.

As for Trump himself, he'd probably fly to France and hide behind Roman Polanski; he seems to know how to keep from being dragged back to the USA for trial - he even managed to win an Oscar while doing it!
  #60  
Old 09-25-2019, 03:47 PM
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From the trivia desk: This Wikipedia page shows 14 persons convicted of treason against the United States or one of its states. (Five of the 14 were subsequently pardoned or had their conviction annulled.) Is this a complete list?

The list contains three names I recognize: Tokyo Rose, Axis Sally, and John Brown of Osawatomie. Three of the 14 were convicted of treason against a state, rather than against the United States: Governor Dorr (conviction later annulled), leader of a Rhode Island Suffrage movement; John Brown the Martyr (convicted by Virginia); and one of Brown's soldiers.
  #61  
Old 09-25-2019, 04:20 PM
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John Brown "the Martyr"? Is that a thing people call him?
  #62  
Old 09-26-2019, 06:41 AM
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If you've heard of him at all, you've heard him called that. Him being called that is the reason why he's even in the history books.
  #63  
Old 09-26-2019, 06:52 AM
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How can you stop Trump using the pardon power?
  #64  
Old 09-26-2019, 06:59 AM
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You probably can't. But he can't do squat about charges brought by state's AG's.

Last edited by bobot; 09-26-2019 at 06:59 AM.
  #65  
Old 09-26-2019, 07:02 AM
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https://digital.librarycompany.org/i...itool%3A127833

John Brown -- the martyr. Artwork.

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  #66  
Old 09-26-2019, 07:04 AM
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You probably can't. But he can't do squat about charges brought by state's AG's.
I hope that gets tested.
  #67  
Old 09-26-2019, 07:32 AM
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If you've heard of him at all, you've heard him called that.
I've heard of him, and seen him depicted in a movie or two. I couldn't tell you the details of what he did or how he died. I knew he was an abolitionist who took direct action against the slavers. However, I can't recall ever hearing the exact epithet "John Brown the Martyr" before.

I'd expect that most people have heard of him through the song "John Brown's Body" and only the first verse and chorus.

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Him being called that is the reason why he's even in the history books.
He's in the history books for the actions he took, and the people he inspired, not for a name he was given.
  #68  
Old 09-26-2019, 08:16 AM
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... I'd expect that most people have heard of him through the song "John Brown's Body" and only the first verse and chorus.

He's in the history books for the actions he took, and the people he inspired, not for a name he was given.
The song was the most popular song of any, in the North, during the Civil War. By inspiring many Northerners with a noble mission to free the slaves, the Union kept courage and a strong sense of purpose; and persisted in the face of huge horrors. Some historians believe that without Brown's inspiration, the fight would have been abandoned at some point, and secession accepted.

Whether or not the specific phrase "the Martyr" was commonly applied, it was specifically his martyrdom and his unflinching courage as he stood on the gallows while slavers prepared to hang him that inspired the Union and indeed Europe as well. Some even compared his martyrdom to that of the Christ from Nazareth:

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Originally Posted by Ralph Waldo Emerson, speaking three weeks before John Brown was hanged
John Brown ... The Saint, whose fate yet hangs in suspense, but whose martyrdom, if it shall be perfected, will make the gallows as glorious as the cross.
  #69  
Old 09-26-2019, 08:39 AM
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Brown attacked a US armory in Harper's Ferry. Seven people were killed.
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Old 09-26-2019, 09:06 AM
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Now his body is a-moldering in the grave. I always loved that description.

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  #71  
Old 09-26-2019, 11:13 AM
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In the past, I've been one of the people who favored moving on. I figured the important thing was getting the crook out of office - and if easing his path accomplished that, we should let him go without facing criminal charges.

But I'll admit I was wrong. I've seen that focusing on getting the current crook out of the White House is ignoring the next crook. We let Nixon and Reagan and Bush avoid facing criminal charges and all it did was lead to a worst crook getting elected next time.

So no more. We need to impeach Donald Trump. We need to bring criminal charges against Donald Trump. We need to have a public trial for Donald Trump. And we need to put Donald Trump in prison for the crimes he has committed. We need to take the voters by the scruff of their neck and rub their faces in what they did.

Because otherwise history will repeat itself and we'll have a Republican President who's somehow worse than Trump in office in ten years. We need to break this downward spiral.
  #72  
Old 09-26-2019, 11:17 AM
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The only thing Republicans learned from Nixon was to coverup better.
  #73  
Old 09-26-2019, 11:48 AM
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In the past, I've been one of the people who favored moving on. I figured the important thing was getting the crook out of office - and if easing his path accomplished that, we should let him go without facing criminal charges.

But I'll admit I was wrong. I've seen that focusing on getting the current crook out of the White House is ignoring the next crook. We let Nixon and Reagan and Bush avoid facing criminal charges and all it did was lead to a worst crook getting elected next time.

So no more. We need to impeach Donald Trump. We need to bring criminal charges against Donald Trump. We need to have a public trial for Donald Trump. And we need to put Donald Trump in prison for the crimes he has committed. We need to take the voters by the scruff of their neck and rub their faces in what they did.

Because otherwise history will repeat itself and we'll have a Republican President who's somehow worse than Trump in office in ten years. We need to break this downward spiral.

We do need to break this downward spiral.

Donald Trump is the perfect case for this. He is SO bad, and SO stupid, and SO corrupt that prosecuting him will be relatively easy.
  #74  
Old 09-26-2019, 11:51 AM
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The only thing Republicans learned from Nixon was to coverup better.
And to brazen it out.
  #75  
Old 09-26-2019, 11:51 AM
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Americans need to learn what should be an easy lesson. Voting matters.

Stop voting on single issues. You are voting for the leader of your country.
  #76  
Old 09-26-2019, 11:56 AM
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And to brazen it out.
Yep. Also:

Never admit to anything
Double down
Cover up on the cover up
Send out the attack dogs
Accuse others of what you just did
Use your pet media to spread your falsehoods
Prevent voters from voting
  #77  
Old 09-26-2019, 12:11 PM
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If you've heard of him at all, you've heard him called that. Him being called that is the reason why he's even in the history books.
I've heard of him a bunch, and never prior to this thread have I heard him called "the Martyr". Also, like others have said, I'm pretty sure he's in the history books for murdering people, not because of the name.
  #78  
Old 09-26-2019, 12:18 PM
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John Brown is in the history books because he was a white man who opposed slavery (a monstrous system of mass torture, violence, and rape of millions of men, women, and children) strongly enough that he felt violence was necessary to stop it. And he sacrificed his life for that cause.

If it was morally acceptable for a slave to lash out against his or her slave master, or a slavery supporter acting to assist his or her enslavement, with violence, then it's morally acceptable for a non-slave to lash out against a slave master (or slavery supporter as previous) with violence. Some things are so morally reprehensible that violence is morally acceptable in order to oppose them -- slavery qualifies for that.

Do you disagree, HD?

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 09-26-2019 at 12:19 PM.
  #79  
Old 09-26-2019, 12:38 PM
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I think I've found the Republican talking point of the day:

- Go to social media and find a topic about Trump, impeachment, Ukraine
- Bring up an entirely unrelated topic (the national debt, historical figures, slavery, whatever)
- Deflect the conversation into this new area. Don't be afraid to bring up distracting topics over and over
- Winning!
  #80  
Old 09-26-2019, 01:06 PM
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John Brown is in the history books because he was a white man who opposed slavery (a monstrous system of mass torture, violence, and rape of millions of men, women, and children) strongly enough that he felt violence was necessary to stop it. And he sacrificed his life for that cause.

If it was morally acceptable for a slave to lash out against his or her slave master, or a slavery supporter acting to assist his or her enslavement, with violence, then it's morally acceptable for a non-slave to lash out against a slave master (or slavery supporter as previous) with violence. Some things are so morally reprehensible that violence is morally acceptable in order to oppose them -- slavery qualifies for that.

Do you disagree, HD?
Brown instigated / participated in the Pottawatomie massacre, in which him and his colleagues murdered five people in a single night. In his raid on Harpers Ferry, he and his men mostly murdered civilians, some of them African-Americans. It would be like trying to attack the White House, even perhaps with noble goals in mind, and only succeeding in killing the groundskeeper.

I probably agree with the sentiment that "Some things are so morally reprehensible that violence is morally acceptable in order to oppose them", but I don't think that John Brown is the embodiment of that sentiment. His use of violence was misdirected / poorly executed, and he ended up doing much more harm than good.

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 09-26-2019 at 01:10 PM.
  #81  
Old 09-26-2019, 01:08 PM
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I think I've found the Republican talking point of the day:

- Go to social media and find a topic about Trump, impeachment, Ukraine
- Bring up an entirely unrelated topic (the national debt, historical figures, slavery, whatever)
- Deflect the conversation into this new area. Don't be afraid to bring up distracting topics over and over
- Winning!
*I* didn't bring up John Brown. Septimus did.
  #82  
Old 09-26-2019, 01:10 PM
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Doesn't answer my question, but whatever. I think American slavery was among the most monstrous things in history, equivalent to the Holocaust and Holodomor, and it's morally acceptable (and even righteous!) to try and oppose such monstrosities with any means possible, including violence. Brown may have made some tactical mistakes, but his cause was as pure as possible, and he sacrificed his life for it, and that's why he's remembered.
  #83  
Old 09-26-2019, 01:15 PM
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Yep. Also:

Never admit to anything
Double down
Cover up on the cover up
Send out the attack dogs
Accuse others of what you just did
Use your pet media to spread your falsehoods
Prevent voters from voting
To be fair, Nixon knew all those things.
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Old 09-26-2019, 01:20 PM
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To be fair, Nixon knew all those things.
Nixon had nothing remotely similar to Fox news.
  #85  
Old 09-26-2019, 02:15 PM
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Do you think "We need to prosecute to the fullest extent of the law, including Treason" is a reference to the colloquial definition or the legal one?
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You still don't understand that what you posted was wrong, do you?
For reference:
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I'm giving you fair notice here. I have no more patience for JAQing off, sealioning, other off topic tangents meant to rile people up, or other bad faith arguments. That goes for all threads in the future, including this one. I will bookmark this post and if it occurs again you will be warned.

[/moderating]
This is the type of pointless JAQing off/sealioning that I cautioned you against previously. This is a warning for failure to follow moderator instructions.


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I don't. "If they do so,and can convince a jury, then kudos to them." was an expression of indifference, not support. Quite honestly, I'd prefer to see the tradition that "the US does not go after or try to prosecute previous administrations" remain intact, but it's a fairly mild preference, and the desire to see President Trump prosecuted currently exists only as a masturbatory fantasy in the minds of the far left, so at present I don't see much point in arguing about that desire.
This too could be violative of our rule against sexualizing posters and their arguments, though I will not give you two warnings at once. If not for the above warning, this would also be a warning as well.

[/moderating]
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Old 09-26-2019, 02:52 PM
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I know there is a lot going on with the current scandal but I want to focus on the inevitable.

We need to make sure that this doesn't happen again. We need to prosecute Trump and his enablers. Not for vindication. To right the course of this country.

How do we take Trump's ability to say "I pardon everyone who has ever been alone in a room with me." away. I think it has to be more than individual states going after him.
  #87  
Old 09-26-2019, 03:02 PM
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How do we take Trump's ability to say "I pardon everyone who has ever been alone in a room with me." away.
290 Representatives, 67 Senators, and 38 state legislatures, to amend the Constitution - good luck with any of those, much less all of them.

Failing that, you can always track them down one by one, and arrest them on trumped-up I just noticed that... charges.
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Old 09-26-2019, 03:06 PM
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I know there is a lot going on with the current scandal but I want to focus on the inevitable.

We need to make sure that this doesn't happen again. We need to prosecute Trump and his enablers. Not for vindication. To right the course of this country.

How do we take Trump's ability to say "I pardon everyone who has ever been alone in a room with me." away. I think it has to be more than individual states going after him.
We need some legislation on candidates being require to provide certain information, including tax returns. I'm sure some other controls on political office can be suggested. Perhaps a federal law requiring government employees to use government email for business.
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Old 09-26-2019, 03:17 PM
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I think we need to think outside the box.

First of all, I don't believe we need to change the constitution, not for this sordid shit.

My semi-facetious mention of Mitch McConnell is what I'm thinking. How do we play by the rules yet negate his veto power? We need to do this now, before he figures out that it is too late. Because very soon, I'm pretty sure, he is going to start issuing prophylactic pardons.
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Old 09-26-2019, 03:20 PM
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We need some legislation on candidates being require to provide certain information, including tax returns. I'm sure some other controls on political office can be suggested. Perhaps a federal law requiring government employees to use government email for business.

This will happen. It is kind of funny that Republicans say they stand for deregulation and then vote for someone like Trump. There are going to be a whole slew of new laws after all this shakes out.
  #91  
Old 09-26-2019, 03:29 PM
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We need some legislation on candidates being require to provide certain information, including tax returns. I'm sure some other controls on political office can be suggested. Perhaps a federal law requiring government employees to use government email for business.
One good way is to throw weight behind Warren - if you want someone who can come to office with a mandate of actually cleaning the slime from the swamp pumps (now that we've drained it, ha), she's the candidate.
  #92  
Old 09-26-2019, 03:55 PM
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We need some legislation on candidates being require to provide certain information, including tax returns. ...
I believe that would need to be an amendment.
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Old 09-26-2019, 04:01 PM
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My prediction. Imagine, if you will that it becomes clear that, as with Nixon, he will be impeached and convicted. Twenty Republican senators realize that they don't want to end up tarred with all the dirt that the investigation is turning up. Then Trump makes a deal with Pence that he will resign and Pence will pardon him. And Pence actually does it, despite Ford's bad experience.

You heard it first here (or maybe you didn't).
  #94  
Old 09-26-2019, 04:03 PM
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My prediction. Imagine, if you will that it becomes clear that, as with Nixon, he will be impeached and convicted. Twenty Republican senators realize that they don't want to end up tarred with all the dirt that the investigation is turning up. Then Trump makes a deal with Pence that he will resign and Pence will pardon him. And Pence actually does it, despite Ford's bad experience.

You heard it first here (or maybe you didn't).
This what I would like to forestall.
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Old 09-26-2019, 04:47 PM
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Trump 2020: It wasn't technically Treason!
Any moment now...

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Originally Posted by KellyAnne Conway

You are saying it's Treason and all they are committing is "Alternative Treason".
  #96  
Old 09-26-2019, 04:52 PM
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The only thing Republicans learned from Nixon was to coverup better.
Then this conclusively proves that Trump is not a Republican.
  #97  
Old 09-26-2019, 05:33 PM
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This what I would like to forestall.
I don't think you can.
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Old 09-26-2019, 06:17 PM
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Well, I can't...
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Old 09-26-2019, 06:20 PM
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Well, I can't...
I guess to be more clear: I don't think the dems can. I don't think the people that would want this done have the political power necessary to accomplish it.
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Old 09-26-2019, 07:59 PM
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Location: Tornado Alley
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
Do you think "We need to prosecute to the fullest extent of the law, including Treason" is a reference to the colloquial definition or the legal one?
Do you think declaring a known mobster and foreign spy to be innocent of treason preemptively makes any sense at all? We may not "declare war" in the modern era, but we still authorize military action & we are fighting wars all the time. You don't get to make treasonous acts acceptable by pretending the crime requires a formal "declaration of war", when we call them "authorizations" now.
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