Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 09-28-2019, 02:54 PM
Sage Rat's Avatar
Sage Rat is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Howdy
Posts: 21,894

The Hunter Biden Investigation


From what I have seen of John Solomon's work, there didn't seem to be any "there there" with the Biden accusations.

And, realistically, nor would there be given that he was working (probably through Rudy Giuliani) with people in Ukraine. If there was any coordination between Joe Biden and Hunter...they would have done that here in the US, not in Ukraine.

Records from the White House would be of more use to the subject than anything whatsoever from Ukraine. And, given that the White House hasn't released any transcripts of conversations between Joe and others about Ukraine, from when he was VP, one suspects that the transcripts paint a portrait of the Secretary of State and/or the Ambassador to Ukraine coming to Biden, explaining the issue, and asking him to move against Shokin. The conversation was begun and lead by parties completely unrelated to Hunter, and Biden simply acted as directed, trusting the people who were experts on the subject.

If the transcripts could be used against Biden, they would have been released. And that's really the only source that one could turn to for trying to prove something, rather than simply spin nonsense.

The only other way to show Joe Biden to be guilty would be to find private messages on non-governmental systems between him and his son. To get that, you would need a warrant, which would in turn need to be based on eye witness evidence that such messages existed. That Joe would show such messages to a person who would be liable to rat him out - if he was even guilty - is miniscule. If Biden is guilty, we will never know through that path, short of a miracle.

I know of no particular evidence nor reason to believe that Biden is a corrupt politician or would do something of this nature. There is no general pattern of suspicious behavior in his past (other than being a lil' handsy).

But, should anyone wish to present evidence that they believe leads to a reasonable suspicion of Joe Biden, feel free to present it here to be reviewed.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 09-28-2019 at 02:55 PM.
  #2  
Old 09-28-2019, 03:04 PM
Aspenglow's Avatar
Aspenglow is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Oregon
Posts: 4,124
There is no there there.

John_Stamos'_Left_Ear gave an excellent summary of the circumstances in the Impeachment Inquiry thread that lays out the facts precisely.

Anything else is just smear.

The end.
  #3  
Old 09-28-2019, 03:10 PM
Boycott is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 225
All the reputable reporting I've seen suggests this is a non-issue. But suppose for a moment Hunter Biden did do something wrong --- it's possible Joe Biden kept a firewall between the duties and the oath he took as Vice President of the United States and the private business matters of his family.
  #4  
Old 09-28-2019, 03:15 PM
Aspenglow's Avatar
Aspenglow is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Oregon
Posts: 4,124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boycott View Post
All the reputable reporting I've seen suggests this is a non-issue. But suppose for a moment Hunter Biden did do something wrong --- it's possible Joe Biden kept a firewall between the duties and the oath he took as Vice President of the United States and the private business matters of his family.
When you have evidence for that, come right on back. Otherwise, you're just perpetuating the smear.
  #5  
Old 09-28-2019, 03:20 PM
k9bfriender is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 11,425
The problem with being the son of the Vice President is that there is not a whole lot you can do that cannot be potentially influenced by your father.

Whether he just sat on the board for his name, or if he actually contributed is a good question, but it is a question that the company should be asking its HR department, it's not a legal question.

That said, sure, if you are in a position to give or undue receive influence from the US govt, then you are in a position that deserves a bit extra scrutiny, and I have no problem with some level of investigation to ensure that everything was on the up and up.

The timeline and the facts don't really add up to show that there was any there, there, and I have yet to see anything other than vague insinuation and accusations with out any basis about it.

Should more come out, then sure, lets investigate and make sure that our elected and public officials are not using the US govt to enrich themselves. But given what we currently know, I don't see this having any traction.
  #6  
Old 09-28-2019, 03:33 PM
carnivorousplant is offline
KB not found. Press any key
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Central Arkansas
Posts: 59,121
I've been waiting for Trump or some Republican to jump onto the lawsuit from a Batesville, Arkansas woman who claims that Hunter Biden fathered a child on her.
  #7  
Old 09-28-2019, 03:50 PM
Ravenman is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 26,632
The more I read about Hunter Biden, the more I don’t like him. He seems to be cut from the same cloth as the Trump boys in some ways - drug use, affairs, privileged career, etc.

But here’s the thing: just because I think someone is a douche doesn’t constitute evidence they have done something illegal. It’s clear to me that the reason Trump and Rudy want him investigated is to damage Biden’s presidential run, egged on by the Putin/Manafort den of snakes who peddle conspiracy theories.

But if Trump wants to use the government to investigate the offspring of politicians for political advantage in the absence of specific allegations of wrongdoing, it seems the country has two choices:

1. Get rid of Trump and put an end to this shit; or
2. Jared, Ivanka, Don Jr, and Eric better have attorneys more skilled than Rudy, because they will need them.

Last edited by Ravenman; 09-28-2019 at 03:50 PM.
  #8  
Old 09-28-2019, 04:05 PM
Sage Rat's Avatar
Sage Rat is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Howdy
Posts: 21,894
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boycott View Post
All the reputable reporting I've seen suggests this is a non-issue.
Reputable reporting can be lazy on topics that they don't want to prove.

But disreputable reporting and rightist reputable reporting haven't come up with anything that I have seen, either.

Quote:
But suppose for a moment Hunter Biden did do something wrong --- it's possible Joe Biden kept a firewall between the duties and the oath he took as Vice President of the United States and the private business matters of his family.
It is, indeed, possible.

It's even possible that he didn't know that his son was a member of a Ukranian company and didn't know that the company was under investigation. And, likewise, it's possible that Hunter didn't know the company was under investigation and was pissed off to discover that this hadn't been communicated to him at any point previous to joining the board nor during his father's period of interacting with Ukraine.

My suspicion is that if you could track down every email and message ever sent to or from Joe and Hunter Biden, it would show that one or both of them was completely unaware of the bias potential of the situation.

But, of course, people can also speak to one another face-to-face so even that would never be 100% conclusive.

There is the potentiality that both of them are guilty. But, as said, the evidence wouldn't be in Ukraine and the people who would be most likely to hold the evidence and who have a motive to release it, have not done so. It's unlikely that it exists.
  #9  
Old 09-28-2019, 04:07 PM
Sage Rat's Avatar
Sage Rat is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Howdy
Posts: 21,894
Quote:
Originally Posted by carnivorousplant View Post
claims that Hunter Biden fathered a child on her.
Unless there was another woman lying on top, it should be noted that child making is done in people, not on them.
  #10  
Old 09-28-2019, 04:13 PM
CarnalK's Avatar
CarnalK is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 18,372
No, it's not reasonable to think Joe didn't know Hunter was on that board. IIRC, there was criticism of Hunter's decision at the time.

But when no one can even articulate what wrong has been committed here, it's just so bizarre.
  #11  
Old 09-28-2019, 04:19 PM
Sage Rat's Avatar
Sage Rat is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Howdy
Posts: 21,894
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarnalK View Post
No, it's not reasonable to think Joe didn't know Hunter was on that board. IIRC, there was criticism of Hunter's decision at the time.
https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-echochambers-27403003

Confirmed.

That hypothesis is nixed.
  #12  
Old 09-28-2019, 04:30 PM
Kent Clark's Avatar
Kent Clark is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Posts: 26,749
Quote:
Originally Posted by carnivorousplant View Post
I've been waiting for Trump or some Republican to jump onto the lawsuit from a Batesville, Arkansas woman who claims that Hunter Biden fathered a child on her.
I have trouble taking this seriously. I've been to Batesville, Arkansas and I have trouble believing anyone would stop there long enough to even meet a woman, much less father a child and have a 'secret wedding" with her.
  #13  
Old 09-28-2019, 04:43 PM
Buck Godot's Avatar
Buck Godot is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: MD outside DC
Posts: 6,012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boycott View Post
All the reputable reporting I've seen suggests this is a non-issue. But suppose for a moment Hunter Biden did do something wrong --- it's possible Joe Biden kept a firewall between the duties and the oath he took as Vice President of the United States and the private business matters of his family.
Yes, if we suppose that Hunter Biden did something unethical than he would have done something unethical. If we suppose that Pence slept with Melania while Trump was out golfing than Pence would be a philanderer.
  #14  
Old 09-28-2019, 04:43 PM
Euphonious Polemic is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 12,171
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarnalK View Post
No, it's not reasonable to think Joe didn't know Hunter was on that board. IIRC, there was criticism of Hunter's decision at the time.

But when no one can even articulate what wrong has been committed here, it's just so bizarre.
In a facebook group I am in, an individual who is supposed to be intelligent is trying to argue that Trump is innocent because

a) Trump won the election fair and square, and so what if he did not get as many votes?
b) Democrats want illegals to vote for them, and so oppose voter ID laws
c) Hunter Biden was paid a lot, and was not qualified.

In his mind, these three points are absolutely incontestable, and therefore prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Trump is completely innocent and this is a witchhunt.

This is the kind of thought process we're dealing with here.
  #15  
Old 09-28-2019, 05:44 PM
carnivorousplant is offline
KB not found. Press any key
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Central Arkansas
Posts: 59,121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kent Clark View Post
I have trouble taking this seriously. I've been to Batesville, Arkansas and I have trouble believing anyone would stop there long enough to even meet a woman, much less father a child and have a 'secret wedding" with her.
Hell, I live in Arkansas and have never been to Batesville, and rarely hear of it.
  #16  
Old 09-28-2019, 05:46 PM
carnivorousplant is offline
KB not found. Press any key
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Central Arkansas
Posts: 59,121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sage Rat View Post
Unless there was another woman lying on top, it should be noted that child making is done in people, not on them.
I believe it is a polite phrase, so that one does not have to say, "He fucked her and she became pregnant".
  #17  
Old 09-28-2019, 05:53 PM
Skywatcher's Avatar
Skywatcher is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Somewhere in the Potomac
Posts: 35,029
Great, a gender-flipped Ilhan Omar thread.
  #18  
Old 09-28-2019, 06:12 PM
Sage Rat's Avatar
Sage Rat is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Howdy
Posts: 21,894
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skywatcher View Post
Great, a gender-flipped Ilhan Omar thread.
If you're aware of any way in which the gender matters, in terms of guilt, evidence, or importance, go for it.

Otherwise, Tomndebb wanted people to go elsewhere to discuss the topic. (I was not discussing it.) I created this as a location for such discussion to occur, so that people wouldn't be interrupting the other thread.
  #19  
Old 09-28-2019, 07:43 PM
Voyager's Avatar
Voyager is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Deep Space
Posts: 46,508
Quote:
Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic View Post
c) Hunter Biden was paid a lot, and was not qualified.
Often synonymous with board membership. Henry Kissinger was on the board of the fraudulent company Theranos, was paid a lot, and was definitely not qualified. Which was one of the reasons he got picked, no doubt. Yet he doesn't seem to have committed any crime.
Anyone know how many boards Hunter Biden was on? If you have a name, it is a way of getting money for almost nothing.
  #20  
Old 09-28-2019, 08:32 PM
Smapti is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Olympia, WA
Posts: 16,244
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skywatcher View Post
Great, a gender-flipped Ilhan Omar thread.
So you're telling me Hunter also fucked his brother?
  #21  
Old 09-28-2019, 08:49 PM
Euphonious Polemic is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 12,171
Quote:
Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
Often synonymous with board membership. Henry Kissinger was on the board of the fraudulent company Theranos, was paid a lot, and was definitely not qualified. Which was one of the reasons he got picked, no doubt. Yet he doesn't seem to have committed any crime.
Anyone know how many boards Hunter Biden was on? If you have a name, it is a way of getting money for almost nothing.
This particular dude on the other board seems to be convinced that if a Democrat makes money, they are guilty of something. It's OK If A Republican Does It. He'll say this with no sense of irony whatsoever.
  #22  
Old 09-28-2019, 10:19 PM
Ann Hedonia's Avatar
Ann Hedonia is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,436
I’m still taking the position that it doesn’t matter at all what Hunter Biden did or didn’t do.

If Trump suspected that an American citizen was committing financial crimes abroad, the appropriate action would’ve been to go to the FBI. They operate all over the world and jointly investigate crimes involving both countries.

https://www.justice.gov/vta/fbivta

The FBI has a legat in Ukraine. So, please don’t get sidetracked. Even if Biden was the next Bernie Madoff what Trump did was still completely and totally wrong. We HAVE a system, via these joint investigations, where a citizen can be prosecuted for overseas crimes while still receiving at least some of the protections accorded to him by American law. So don’t kid yourself that Trump was only delivering justice.

Unfortunately, what the American public doesn’t understand is that the Ukraine and Russia are completely and totally corrupt. It can never be “cleaned up” because if you stripped away the corruption there would be nothing left.

It’s baked into the oligarch system, where a few lucky and loyal cronies were rewarded with formerly state run assets like gas and electric companies, shipping fleets, mining and industrial production , making them rich beyond their wildest dreams.

Then, whether via election or coup, there is regime change. Now, all those oligarchs will be deemed corrupt and papers and documents will show up proving that the didn’t really own those companies at all. Some will flee the country, maybe with assets. The unlucky ones get to stick around as they are tried and convicted. This is done in the name of “cleaning up corruption”. Then their stuff will be given back to “the people”, in actuality the people that the new government picked to be oligarchs.

Sometimes foreign businesspeople are caught up in it, especially if the ruling oligarchs smell money. That’s what happened to American investor Bill Browder. The Russian companies he managed for private investors were stolen out from under him in a far reaching plot involving all levels of government and judicial corruption. One of his local employees, Serge Magnitsky, was murdered in prison. The individuals sanctioned in the Magnitsky Act were the participants in this crime.

I became interested in corruption in the former USSR after reading Browder’s book Red Notice, which I highly recommend. Now I know Hunter Biden is in Ukraine but it’s just as bad as Russia. Maybe worse, because they have lots of regime flips while Putin has held power for a long time, even if by proxy.

But when you’re talking about Ukraine, they’re really no corrupt guys and good guys, they’re all corrupt. Now one thing in Hunter’s defense is that both the guy that owned the gas company and the prosecutor that got fired were on the same side of the chessboard, as it were. So that firing would’ve hurt Biden’s guy, not helped him. But I’m sure I’m like the millionth person to point this out.

But if Trump felt he had a case, he should’ve taken it through the FBI. I wonder if it will come out that he tried. But there is absolutely no non-nefarious reason for Trump to do what he did.
  #23  
Old 09-28-2019, 10:29 PM
Buck Godot's Avatar
Buck Godot is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: MD outside DC
Posts: 6,012
By the way, does anyone have a good source for the origin of the claim that Hunter made "up to $50,000 per month"? If so I would really like to see it. All of the right wing pols are using the exact same phrasing which reeks of weaselly, technically correct, deception. I'm guessing that either there was one month that Hunter made $50,000 while most months he made much less, or else its one of those disclosure questions of the form "Made between $200,000 and $600,000 a year" and they fixated on the high end.

Last edited by Buck Godot; 09-28-2019 at 10:33 PM.
  #24  
Old 09-28-2019, 10:32 PM
LAZombie is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 314
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sage Rat View Post

It's even possible that he didn't know that his son was a member of a Ukranian company and didn't know that the company was under investigation. And, likewise, it's possible that Hunter didn't know the company was under investigation and was pissed off to discover that this hadn't been communicated to him at any point previous to joining the board nor during his father's period of interacting with Ukraine.

My suspicion is that if you could track down every email and message ever sent to or from Joe and Hunter Biden, it would show that one or both of them was completely unaware of the bias potential of the situation.


"In December, 2015, as Joe Biden prepared to return to Ukraine, his aides braced for renewed scrutiny of Hunter’s relationship with Burisma. Amos Hochstein, the Obama Administration’s special envoy for energy policy, raised the matter with Biden, but did not go so far as to recommend that Hunter leave the board. As Hunter recalled, his father discussed Burisma with him just once: “Dad said, ‘I hope you know what you are doing,’ and I said, ‘I do.’ ”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...biden-ukraine/
  #25  
Old 09-29-2019, 01:15 AM
SlackerInc's Avatar
SlackerInc is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Northern Minnesota
Posts: 12,635
Quote:
Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
Often synonymous with board membership. Henry Kissinger was on the board of the fraudulent company Theranos, was paid a lot, and was definitely not qualified. Which was one of the reasons he got picked, no doubt. Yet he doesn't seem to have committed any crime.
Anyone know how many boards Hunter Biden was on? If you have a name, it is a way of getting money for almost nothing.

It’s really kind of gross no matter how many people do it. In fact it’s worse if “everybody does it”.
  #26  
Old 09-29-2019, 06:57 AM
Boycott is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 225
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buck Godot View Post
By the way, does anyone have a good source for the origin of the claim that Hunter made "up to $50,000 per month"? If so I would really like to see it. All of the right wing pols are using the exact same phrasing which reeks of weaselly, technically correct, deception. I'm guessing that either there was one month that Hunter made $50,000 while most months he made much less, or else its one of those disclosure questions of the form "Made between $200,000 and $600,000 a year" and they fixated on the high end.
The person behind that claim appears to be the same person who wrote Clinton Cash

Quote:
Schweizer has been criticized for "incorrect reporting" and "conclusions not supported by facts", including in his second book Friendly Spies. Two Sunday Times reporters trying to follow-up on his reporting discovered that meetings described by Schweizer did not check out, that named sources did not exist or could not be found, and that there was no Paris Sheraton Hotel during the time period when the meetings allegedly took place.[37][38][39] Schweizer admitted he overreached in attacking Hillary Clinton's purported role in approving a Russian uranium deal and falsely claimed that then-Secretary of State Clinton "had veto power" to stop the Russian State Atomic Nuclear Agency (Rosatom) from purchasing Uranium One. During a May 5, 2015, Politico podcast interview, Schweizer admitted that "veto is probably not the best word" and "what I meant by veto power was as we explain the process, you know, if somebody objects it kicks in the special investigation."[40] In a 2015 NBC interview Schweizer said that Hillary Clinton did not support a nuclear deal with India in 2006 and that she voted for it in 2008, after donations to the Clinton Foundation. PolitiFact rated Schweizer's claim "False.

Last edited by Boycott; 09-29-2019 at 06:58 AM.
  #27  
Old 09-29-2019, 07:10 AM
Left Hand of Dorkness's Avatar
Left Hand of Dorkness is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: at the right hand of cool
Posts: 41,555
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
It’s really kind of gross no matter how many people do it. In fact it’s worse if “everybody does it”.
Welcome to capitalism.
  #28  
Old 09-29-2019, 07:18 AM
SlackerInc's Avatar
SlackerInc is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Northern Minnesota
Posts: 12,635
But there are different kinds of capitalism. This is rent seeking, crony capitalism of the worst kind. Just because it’s a legal, if seamy, characteristic of late capitalism doesn’t mean any individual has to participate in it. Especially not a scion of such a prominent Democratic family. How does this fit in with the blue-collar Biden brand? Does Hunter not care about that at all?

And please, I don’t want to hear about Eric or Don Jr. Yes, stipulated. They are sleazy douchebags of the highest order. We are supposed to be way better than that.
  #29  
Old 09-29-2019, 07:28 AM
Lord Feldon's Avatar
Lord Feldon is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Ohio, USA
Posts: 6,576
Quote:
Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
How does this fit in with the blue-collar Biden brand? Does Hunter not care about that at all?
The general trajectory of his life over the last few years does not indicate that he places a high value on the needs of his family.

Last edited by Lord Feldon; 09-29-2019 at 07:28 AM.
  #30  
Old 09-29-2019, 07:18 PM
Skywatcher's Avatar
Skywatcher is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Somewhere in the Potomac
Posts: 35,029
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skywatcher View Post
Great, a gender-flipped Ilhan Omar thread.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sage Rat View Post
If you're aware of any way in which the gender matters, in terms of guilt, evidence, or importance, go for it.
It's a Trope.

Quote:
Otherwise, Tomndebb wanted people to go elsewhere to discuss the topic. (I was not discussing it.) I created this as a location for such discussion to occur, so that people wouldn't be interrupting the other thread.
You weren't discussing it so why not let it die? Why let people perpetuate the smear, as you've been doing with Ilhan Omar?
  #31  
Old 09-29-2019, 07:37 PM
guizot is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: An East Hollywood dingbat
Posts: 8,733
The L.A. Times has an interview with Ukrainian prosecutor Yuri Lutsenko, who says he saw no signs of wrong doing by Biden.
Quote:
Originally Posted by L.A. Times
In an interview, Yuri Lutsenko said while he was Ukraine’s prosecutor general he told Rudolph W. Giuliani that he would be happy to cooperate if the FBI or other U.S. authorities began their own investigation of the former vice president and his son Hunter but insisted they had not broken any Ukrainian laws to his knowledge.
Maybe he was fired because he wouldn't "play ball" with the Trump administration on this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by L.A. Times
Lutsenko, who was fired as prosecutor general last month, said he had urged Giuliani to launch a U.S. inquiry and go to court if he had any evidence but not to use Ukraine to conduct a political vendetta that could affect the U.S. election.

“I said, ‘Let’s put this through prosecutors, not through presidents,’ ” Lutsenko told The Times. . . .

Lutsenko’s account is controversial since he is believed to have been one of the original promoters behind the unsubstantiated allegations against Biden. He also complained about Marie Yovanovitch, the U.S. ambassador to Kyiv who was recalled in May, weeks before her tenure was up.

Yovanovitch had pushed Ukraine’s government to more aggressively crack down on corruption. But the White House considered her insufficiently loyal to Trump, apparently because she resisted pressuring Ukraine on his priorities, and she became a target of conservative critics, including Giuliani.
Only the now desperate Trump apologists are falling for this thing.
  #32  
Old 09-29-2019, 08:00 PM
Buck Godot's Avatar
Buck Godot is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: MD outside DC
Posts: 6,012
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boycott View Post
The person behind that claim appears to be the same person who wrote Clinton Cash
The media is really dropping the ball by not fact checking this claim.
  #33  
Old 09-29-2019, 08:07 PM
Left Hand of Dorkness's Avatar
Left Hand of Dorkness is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: at the right hand of cool
Posts: 41,555
As I understand it, we have two categories of questions here:

1) What, if anything, has any member of the Biden family ever done wrong?
2) What, if anything, has President Trump done wrong in the matter of asking foreign governments to work with his personal lawyer AND with the US Attorney General to investigate US citizens, as a favor, in the context of the foreign government seeking both the release of congressionally-mandated aid and also a meeting with the president?

The answer to question 1 may be that Joe Biden shot JFK, and Hunter Biden personally started ISIS and also talks loudly on his cell phone at the opera.

That doesn't have anything to do with question 2.

As long as there's no disagreement on this subject, question 2 can be some idle fun. But given the president's attempt to muddy the waters, we almost need to repeat this "no linkage" thing every ten posts to make sure folks haven't forgotten.
  #34  
Old 09-29-2019, 08:53 PM
MEBuckner's Avatar
MEBuckner is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Posts: 12,174
Quote:
Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post
As I understand it, we have two categories of questions here:

1) What, if anything, has any member of the Biden family ever done wrong?
2) What, if anything, has President Trump done wrong in the matter of asking foreign governments to work with his personal lawyer AND with the US Attorney General to investigate US citizens, as a favor, in the context of the foreign government seeking both the release of congressionally-mandated aid and also a meeting with the president?

The answer to question 1 may be that Joe Biden shot JFK, and Hunter Biden personally started ISIS and also talks loudly on his cell phone at the opera.

That doesn't have anything to do with question 2.

As long as there's no disagreement on this subject, question 2 can be some idle fun. But given the president's attempt to muddy the waters, we almost need to repeat this "no linkage" thing every ten posts to make sure folks haven't forgotten.
I assume you mean question 1 can be some idle fun. I don't think questions about the conduct of the sitting President of the United States are quite so much fun!

I'm not personally thrilled that the son of a front-runner candidate for President of the United States was serving on the board of directors of a Ukrainian natural gas company. (I mean, given that AFAIK Hunter Biden didn't major in hydrocarbon chemistry or petroleum geology in college, doesn't seem to have anything in his background that would give him any particular expertise in either the business of oil and natural gas production or in Ukrainian corporate law, and so forth.) Regardless of the "No laws were broken!" mantra, I really wish the Democrats would knock it off with this sort of thing. One party of corrupt plutocrats is enough (really, more than enough), thank you very much.

But, again, I totally agree that this pales into insignificance compared to the shocking incompetence, cruelty, demagoguery, and very likely massive corruption of the sitting President of the United States. We should certainly oppose crony-capitalism as practiced by Democrats simply because it's wrong. But another reason to do so is that it fosters the corrosive cynicism that now pervades American politics ("Well, he's a politician, what do you expect? They're all looking out for Number One; ain't none of them looking out for you and me") which has greatly empowered Trump (for all that it's deeply paradoxical and kind of stupid for people disgusted by political corruption to have so empowered the worst grifter and con-man to have ever held the office of President of the United States).
__________________
"In our obscurity, in all this vastness, there is no hint that help will come from elsewhere to save us from ourselves." -- Carl Sagan

Ceterum censeo imperium Trumpi esse delendam
  #35  
Old 09-29-2019, 09:10 PM
Left Hand of Dorkness's Avatar
Left Hand of Dorkness is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: at the right hand of cool
Posts: 41,555
Uh, yeah, question 1 is the idle fun one. Thanks!

It is such a playground conversation, one I have weekly:
Quote:
Hey, Billy, c'mere. Did you just tell Rob to punch Jim?
BUT YESTERDAY JIM SAID A BAD WORD AT LUNCH!
That has nothing to do with you punching him. I might have a separate conversation with him about that, but that doesn't mean you can punch him.
WHO TOLD YOU? THEY'RE A TATTLE-TALE!
Billy, this isn't about who told me. This is about you punching someone. That's against the rules.
JIM SAID YOUR MOM WAS BALD-HEADED THOUGH
Billy, c'mon. You can't do things like this. You're the principal!
  #36  
Old 09-29-2019, 09:21 PM
MEBuckner's Avatar
MEBuckner is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Posts: 12,174
Quote:
Billy, c'mon. You can't do things like this. You're the principal!
LOL! (As in literal out-loud laughter.)
  #37  
Old 09-29-2019, 09:28 PM
guizot is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: An East Hollywood dingbat
Posts: 8,733
Quote:
Originally Posted by MEBuckner View Post
One party of corrupt plutocrats is enough (really, more than enough), thank you very much.
Well, obviously. But that's not really the issue.

The only reason to point out that it wasn't illegal is because the fig leaf they're hold up for Trump's defense was that he wanted something illegal investigated. They had already told him it wasn't illegal, but he was insisting as a way of saying, "Make something up if you have to."

Trump's defense isn't saying that he's on some kind of quest to rid the world of cronyism. This is purely an issue of making a solid case against his actions.
  #38  
Old 09-29-2019, 10:37 PM
MEBuckner's Avatar
MEBuckner is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Posts: 12,174
Quote:
Originally Posted by guizot View Post
Trump's defense isn't saying that he's on some kind of quest to rid the world of cronyism.
That would be like the Pope being on some kind of quest to rid the world of Catholicism.
  #39  
Old 09-30-2019, 12:04 AM
RioRico is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: beyond cell service
Posts: 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buck Godot View Post
By the way, does anyone have a good source for the origin of the claim that Hunter made "up to $50,000 per month"? If so I would really like to see it. All of the right wing pols are using the exact same phrasing which reeks of weaselly, technically correct, deception. I'm guessing that either there was one month that Hunter made $50,000 while most months he made much less, or else its one of those disclosure questions of the form "Made between $200,000 and $600,000 a year" and they fixated on the high end.
I have "made up to $50k per month", too. OK, that was MX$ not US$, and the dollar-peso exchange rate slipped from 1:12 to 1:20, but that still qualifies. Another month I made "up to" a million US bucks. But my printer smeared the ink so I sacrificed the blurry BenFranks for garden mulch. Such a loss.

"Up to X amount" leaves much leeway. Tramp received "up to" an overwhelming popular vote majority. That means he didn't. Hunter Biden may have "made up to" whatever number a skuzball wants to claim. That, too, means he did not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buck Godot View Post
The media is really dropping the ball by not fact checking this claim.
Commercial US media made Tramp, continue to enable him, and he's been their gold mine for years - still is. Should we expect change?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MEBuckner View Post
That would be like the Pope being on some kind of quest to rid the world of Catholicism.
RC conservatives think so. SCHISM
Pope Could Soon Say ‘I Do’ to Married Priests–and Open a Schism
Quote:
A group of hand-picked clerics meeting in Rome next week about the ecumenical needs of the Amazon could change the entire Catholic Church forever.
Is the Pope Catholic? Is Hunter Biden? (Both say yes.) Now several Bidens are targeted in the overall power-culture wars. They're worse than Billy Carter!
  #40  
Old 09-30-2019, 12:16 AM
nate is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 927
Does it really matter? All that matters is the water is muddy enough where Trump supporters and Republicans have some answer for why Trump asked a political favor of a foreign leader. The truth actually does affect these people, but if you obfuscate the situation enough, people will give up and stick to a simple explanation. The conservatives, at this point, don't have coherence on a simple explanation/mantra, but they will. "Lock her up!", "No obstruction!", "Perfect conversation!"... they give supporters a backstop. I don't know what the hell "Perfect conversation!" means, but it really doesn't matter. They are really pushing the envelope on these kinds of things.
  #41  
Old 09-30-2019, 08:41 AM
LAZombie is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 314
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buck Godot View Post
By the way, does anyone have a good source for the origin of the claim that Hunter made "up to $50,000 per month"? If so I would really like to see it. All of the right wing pols are using the exact same phrasing which reeks of weaselly, technically correct, deception. I'm guessing that either there was one month that Hunter made $50,000 while most months he made much less, or else its one of those disclosure questions of the form "Made between $200,000 and $600,000 a year" and they fixated on the high end.
"U.S. banking records show Hunter Biden’s American-based firm, Rosemont Seneca Partners LLC, received regular transfers into one of its accounts — usually more than $166,000 a month — from Burisma from spring 2014 through fall 2015, during a period when Vice President Biden was the main U.S. official dealing with Ukraine and its tense relations with Russia."

https://thehill.com/opinion/white-ho...obe-is-revived
  #42  
Old 09-30-2019, 09:02 AM
Ravenman is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 26,632
If being overpaid is a crime, why the fuck hasn’t someone arrested the whole Trump family?
  #43  
Old 09-30-2019, 10:15 AM
simster is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 11,312
I get the Ukraine 'scandal' overall - can someone tell me what the Bidens supposedly did with China and what really happened?
  #44  
Old 09-30-2019, 11:51 AM
SmellMyWort is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 3,099
I posted these in the impeachment thread and I think they give a good overview of the Hunter Biden situation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump%...DRYkC8xm6Lvr1A

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...DFKXYFJp2b8H_A

There is also a wikipedia article about H. Biden that lists the positions he's held, including being appointed by GWB to the board of Amtrak.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunter_Biden
  #45  
Old 09-30-2019, 12:14 PM
simster is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 11,312
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmellMyWort View Post
I posted these in the impeachment thread and I think they give a good overview of the Hunter Biden situation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump%...DRYkC8xm6Lvr1A

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...DFKXYFJp2b8H_A

There is also a wikipedia article about H. Biden that lists the positions he's held, including being appointed by GWB to the board of Amtrak.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunter_Biden
First two links are dead - but the third had enough to give me the context I needed. Thanks.
  #46  
Old 09-30-2019, 01:19 PM
carnivorousplant is offline
KB not found. Press any key
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Central Arkansas
Posts: 59,121
And he still has time to travel to Batesville, Arkansas!
__________________
You callous bastard! More of my illusions have just been shattered!!-G0sp3l
  #47  
Old 09-30-2019, 01:37 PM
SmellMyWort is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 3,099
Quote:
Originally Posted by simster View Post
First two links are dead - but the third had enough to give me the context I needed. Thanks.
Sorry about that. These should work:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...DFKXYFJp2b8H_A

Here is a bit about H. Biden's compensation:
Quote:
Hunter Biden’s compensation for serving on the board was apparently routed through Rosemont Seneca Bohai LLC, a U.S. company set up by one of his business partners, Devon Archer, who also served as a Burisma director. Bank records from 2014 and 2015, disclosed in unrelated litigation, show the company receiving funds from Burisma and paying more than $850,000 to the younger Biden. He remained on the board until this year.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump%...DRYkC8xm6Lvr1A
The Background section of this article lays out a nice timeline and key players.

Does anyone know where the claim that "Biden bragged about getting rid of the prosecuter" is coming from? It seems like there was a bit from a speech or something but I haven't been able to find it.
  #48  
Old 09-30-2019, 01:59 PM
RitterSport's Avatar
RitterSport is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,432
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmellMyWort View Post
...

Does anyone know where the claim that "Biden bragged about getting rid of the prosecuter" is coming from? It seems like there was a bit from a speech or something but I haven't been able to find it.
From my Biden thread:

https://www.cfr.org/event/foreign-af...dent-joe-biden

Quote:
...They made—I mean, I’ll give you one concrete example. I was—not I, but it just happened to be that was the assignment I got. I got all the good ones. And so I got Ukraine. And I remember going over, convincing our team, our leaders to—convincing that we should be providing for loan guarantees. And I went over, I guess, the 12th, 13th time to Kiev. And I was supposed to announce that there was another billion-dollar loan guarantee. And I had gotten a commitment from Poroshenko and from Yatsenyuk that they would take action against the state prosecutor. And they didn’t.

So they said they had—they were walking out to a press conference. I said, nah, I’m not going to—or, we’re not going to give you the billion dollars. They said, you have no authority. You’re not the president. The president said—I said, call him. (Laughter.) I said, I’m telling you, you’re not getting the billion dollars. I said, you’re not getting the billion. I’m going to be leaving here in, I think it was about six hours. I looked at them and said: I’m leaving in six hours. If the prosecutor is not fired, you’re not getting the money. Well, son of a bitch. (Laughter.) He got fired. And they put in place someone who was solid at the time.

Last edited by RitterSport; 09-30-2019 at 02:00 PM.
  #49  
Old 09-30-2019, 02:47 PM
Sage Rat's Avatar
Sage Rat is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Howdy
Posts: 21,894
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skywatcher View Post
You weren't discussing it so why not let it die? Why let people perpetuate the smear, as you've been doing with Ilhan Omar?
There are two ways to operate in life:

1) Pick an answer. Decide that your answer is correct. Declare things that disagree with your answer to be false, lies, and only exist as personal attacks on you and the world. And, of course, declare anything which agrees with your answer to be further and inviolable proof of the answers correctness.

2) Have no opinion on things. If someone suggests that something might be true, you investigate that and use evidence that is discovered to determine if any of it contradicts the suggested idea. If the evidence contradicts the idea, then the idea is not true. If the evidence does not contradict the idea then it's possibly true but there may be other ideas that would also explain the same evidence. But, minus alternative ideas that would also explain the evidence, the one idea is the leading idea and should be treated as truth until alternate hypotheses are raised.

Between 1 and 2 is a spectrum of ways to operate, of course, but only pure adherence to 2 is a sane or useful way to operate.

Joe Biden may become the next President of the United States. Our job as citizens is to determine whether he is a person that we trust to work for the entire populace of the country, preserve and execute the law of the land, and do the work of becoming informed on the subjects that will impact our country and make deliberative and rational decisions on the basis of that information.

Someone has said that we could not trust him.

Now we can either use ad hominem character attacks on the accuser - seeing that criminal accusations only ever come from impeachably good people of perfect character - or simply review the accusation and the merits of the accusation and let that go where it leads, regardless of any personal feelings on the matter.

I vote that the latter is more useful to the country and is, expressly, the job of the electorate leading in to an election.

In the case of Biden, in the basis of what I have seen and know, I lean towards him being innocent. But if better evidence comes in to show that he is probably guilty, then he is probably guilty. Personal feelings on the subject are irrelevant. He could have the perfect policy agenda for the nation but, if he's a crook, then he should go to jail. And if anyone votes for him on his policy even though there be sufficient evidence of criminality, then they are failing in their duty as a citizen.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 09-30-2019 at 02:52 PM.
  #50  
Old 09-30-2019, 03:15 PM
Left Hand of Dorkness's Avatar
Left Hand of Dorkness is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: at the right hand of cool
Posts: 41,555
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sage Rat View Post
2) Have no opinion on things. If someone suggests that something might be true, you investigate that and use evidence that is discovered to determine if any of it contradicts the suggested idea. If the evidence contradicts the idea, then the idea is not true. If the evidence does not contradict the idea then it's possibly true but there may be other ideas that would also explain the same evidence. But, minus alternative ideas that would also explain the evidence, the one idea is the leading idea and should be treated as truth until alternate hypotheses are raised.

Between 1 and 2 is a spectrum of ways to operate, of course, but only pure adherence to 2 is a sane or useful way to operate.
I propose that you don't believe this. To demonstrate, allow me to suggest some things that might be true:

Giuliani when he was twelve once ate fifteen muffins at one sitting.
There is a duck in Central Park with a broken left wing.
If you bundle five pounds of uncooked spaghetti together with twine and then boil it, the twine will break through the spaghetti, every time.
George Stephanopoulos likes to use the treadmill while listening to Beyonce.
Outside my house, there's a red pickup truck.

Is it "sane or useful", now that "someone [me] suggests that something might be true," to "investigate that and use evidence that is discovered to determine if any of it contradicts the suggested idea"?

Hell no it's not. You correctly realize that none of my claims are worth investigating, because I'm not making them in good faith: I'm just making them to waste your time.

One way to stop a vampire is to scatter poppy seeds around the grave: the risen vampire will be unable to stop itself from counting the seeds and will be effectively trapped until sunrise. If you don't have a filter that helps you recognize claims made in bad faith, you're going to be just as trapped as that vampire.

The Hunter Biden claims? Super bad faith. Don't be a vampire.

Last edited by Left Hand of Dorkness; 09-30-2019 at 03:16 PM.
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:49 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright © 2019 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017