Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 10-03-2019, 01:07 PM
FlikTheBlue is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,800

Why are their so few Justin Amashes among Republicans (politicians and voters)?


Among all the Republicans in Congress, so far only one, representative Justin Amash (who had to become an Independent due to his standing on principle), has come out in favor of impeachment and against Trump’s behavior. Meanwhile Trump’s approval among the general public continues to hover in the low 40s give or take a point or two. Why have so few Republicans, including both the people in Congress and the voters in general, not yet turned against him? As a Democrat it seems obvious to me that Trump places his own personal good above that of the country. I just don’t get how so many Republicans can be in denial about what seems so obvious to those of us who aren’t inside the Republican bubble.
  #2  
Old 10-03-2019, 01:14 PM
BobLibDem is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Home 07 NCAA HockeyChamps
Posts: 21,698
I think if you gave them truth serum they'd admit that Donald is a crook and existential threat to democracy. But they are terrified of his base, so jumping off his bandwagon means losing your seat. They're all facing a choice of standing up for the country or clinging to their seat out of fear, and fear is kicking honor's ass in that battle.
  #3  
Old 10-03-2019, 01:20 PM
FlikTheBlue is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,800
That’s what I thought at first, but let’s compare Trump’s situation to the most recent historical example, Richard Nixon. After Republicans turned on him the Republicans “suffered” through four whole years of Jimmy Carter but then ended up holding the presidency for 12 years after that. They certainly weren’t cast out into the wilderness for a generation or forced to change their whole platform or much anything else of consequence.
  #4  
Old 10-03-2019, 01:21 PM
Euphonious Polemic is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 12,211
If they stand up to Trump they will be fired.
They don't want to be fired.
Ergo, They will not stand up to Trump.


It's not that complex.

Personal needs before Party.
Party before Country.
  #5  
Old 10-03-2019, 01:22 PM
Velocity is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 15,397
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlikTheBlue View Post
That’s what I thought at first, but let’s compare Trump’s situation to the most recent historical example, Richard Nixon. After Republicans turned on him the Republicans “suffered” through four whole years of Jimmy Carter but then ended up holding the presidency for 12 years after that. They certainly weren’t cast out into the wilderness for a generation or forced to change their whole platform or much anything else of consequence.
That was a different era, though, voters weren't so polarized. It was an era where Reagan could win 49 states (in other words, voters had little qualms about jumping from red to blue or vice versa.) Today, the only way the Republican Party can survive is if they maintain near-perfect party discipline and voter mobilization, and shrinking demographics are on the way.
  #6  
Old 10-03-2019, 01:24 PM
Euphonious Polemic is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 12,211
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlikTheBlue View Post
That’s what I thought at first, but let’s compare Trump’s situation to the most recent historical example, Richard Nixon. After Republicans turned on him the Republicans “suffered” through four whole years of Jimmy Carter but then ended up holding the presidency for 12 years after that. They certainly weren’t cast out into the wilderness for a generation or forced to change their whole platform or much anything else of consequence.
They don't care about the party. They care about themselves first. (Country is third, if that)

They don't want to be fired and personally lose their jobs as representatives next election. They are dependent on the Trump base for their jobs. They cannot go against Trump's base.

Therefore, they will never go against Trump. They don't care about the party's fortunes in the future. They care about their PERSONAL fortune, RIGHT NOW.
  #7  
Old 10-03-2019, 01:26 PM
Airbeck is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Chicago - South Side
Posts: 2,943
Quote:
Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
Today, the only way the Republican Party can survive is if they maintain near-perfect party discipline and voter mobilization, and shrinking demographics are on the way.
So party discipline is more important than what's best for America?

If the Republican party as currently comprised becomes unable to survive, isn't that a feature of a democratic society rather than a bug? Why should a party that can't maintain sufficient support levels to win without engaging in shenanigans be artificially propped up? Maybe they need to rethink their policies and make them more appealing to more Americans? Or is that just out of the question?
__________________
"Sometimes I think that the surest sign of intelligent life in the Universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." - Calvin and Hobbes

Last edited by Airbeck; 10-03-2019 at 01:27 PM.
  #8  
Old 10-03-2019, 01:27 PM
YamatoTwinkie is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,285
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlikTheBlue View Post
Why have so few Republicans, including both the people in Congress and the voters in general, not yet turned against him?
The former follows the whims of the latter, or else they run the risk of being primary'ed. Since the latter gives the President an 87% approval rating, there really isn't much of a decision there. I'm sure plenty of them are planning their exit strategy for when the boat starts sinking and the lifeboats are scarce, but jump too soon, and you risk sitting alone in the ocean, and just maybe the Titanic is going to limp into port after all...
  #9  
Old 10-03-2019, 01:35 PM
Fiveyearlurker is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 6,749
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobLibDem View Post
I think if you gave them truth serum they'd admit that Donald is a crook and existential threat to democracy. But they are terrified of his base, so jumping off his bandwagon means losing your seat. They're all facing a choice of standing up for the country or clinging to their seat out of fear, and fear is kicking honor's ass in that battle.
I get that this is the answer. But, all of these folks are, at worst, going to lose their job. Big deal.
  #10  
Old 10-03-2019, 01:35 PM
FlikTheBlue is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,800
Quote:
Originally Posted by YamatoTwinkie View Post
The former follows the whims of the latter, or else they run the risk of being primary'ed. Since the latter gives the President an 87% approval rating, there really isn't much of a decision there. I'm sure plenty of them are planning their exit strategy for when the boat starts sinking and the lifeboats are scarce, but jump too soon, and you risk sitting alone in the ocean, and just maybe the Titanic is going to limp into port after all...
Trump's continued high approval among Republican voters is part of what I don't get. I think, but obviously have no proof, that if Obama had openly suggested in 2011 that some foreign country investigate Mitt Romney, that big chunks of Democratic voters would have abandoned him. I genuinely believe that had Obama been the sort of person to put his own interests ahead of the country’s, and that if there had been obvious evidence showing that, then Democratic voters would have held their noses and voted for Romney in 2012.

Last edited by FlikTheBlue; 10-03-2019 at 01:39 PM.
  #11  
Old 10-03-2019, 01:44 PM
FlikTheBlue is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,800
Apologies for the double post. Speaking for myself, had Obama turned out to be the left wing version of Trump, I would have voted for Romney in 2012.
  #12  
Old 10-03-2019, 01:51 PM
Thing Fish is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Chicago (NL)
Posts: 3,466
Perhaps more to the point, I believe that if Obama had been shown in 2011 to have committed gross malfeasance in office, he wouldn't have been the Democratic nominee in 2012, even if he wasn't impeached and removed from office!

Maybe I'm underestimating my own side's capacity for denial and whataboutism, but compare and contrast how Al Franken and Roy Moore were treated by their respective parties. I think there's a very real moral difference there.

Last edited by Thing Fish; 10-03-2019 at 01:52 PM.
  #13  
Old 10-03-2019, 01:53 PM
BobLibDem is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Home 07 NCAA HockeyChamps
Posts: 21,698
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlikTheBlue View Post
Apologies for the double post. Speaking for myself, had Obama turned out to be the left wing version of Trump, I would have voted for Romney in 2012.
I think I would have to. I like to think that though I would likely have disagreed with most everything he did, Mitt would have been an honorable president.

I missed the OP question about the voters. Why don't voters abandon him? I think it's like the reverse of buyer's remorse. They've invested heavily of themselves in him, it's tough to admit that the support was for an ignoble cause. Rather than admit that they made a terrible mistake, a lot of people would rather dig in deeper. There are also millions that love him because he hates the same people they do. That hasn't changed.
  #14  
Old 10-03-2019, 02:03 PM
Euphonious Polemic is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 12,211
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlikTheBlue View Post
I genuinely believe that had Obama been the sort of person to put his own interests ahead of the country’s, and that if there had been obvious evidence showing that, then Democratic voters would have held their noses and voted for Romney in 2012.
Romney would have received 538 electoral votes.

Actually, if Obama had pulled this exact same shit, he would never have finished his term.
  #15  
Old 10-03-2019, 03:08 PM
kenobi 65's Avatar
kenobi 65 is online now
Corellian Nerfherder
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Brookfield, IL
Posts: 15,760
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thing Fish View Post
Perhaps more to the point, I believe that if Obama had been shown in 2011 to have committed gross malfeasance in office, he wouldn't have been the Democratic nominee in 2012, even if he wasn't impeached and removed from office!

Maybe I'm underestimating my own side's capacity for denial and whataboutism, but compare and contrast how Al Franken and Roy Moore were treated by their respective parties. I think there's a very real moral difference there.
I heard a quote from Mitt Romney a few weeks ago (though I suspect that he didn't coin it): "Democrats fall in love; Republicans fall in line." The point was that the GOP is typically far more able to get their office-holders to toe the party line, and publicly support senior leadership when issues emerge, than the Democrats are.
  #16  
Old 10-03-2019, 03:12 PM
Airbeck is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Chicago - South Side
Posts: 2,943
That's the authoritarianism.
__________________
"Sometimes I think that the surest sign of intelligent life in the Universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." - Calvin and Hobbes
  #17  
Old 10-03-2019, 03:20 PM
Boycott is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 227
He's from Grand Rapids.

So was President Gerald Ford.

Maybe the water in town is different hence why Grand Rapids republicans are moderate while the party moves extreme.
  #18  
Old 10-03-2019, 03:39 PM
FlikTheBlue is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,800
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boycott View Post
He's from Grand Rapids.

So was President Gerald Ford.

Maybe the water in town is different hence why Grand Rapids republicans are moderate while the party moves extreme.
Maybe, but Amash was a member of the Tea Party back in the day when that was still a thing.
  #19  
Old 10-03-2019, 04:08 PM
The Other Waldo Pepper is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 16,751
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiveyearlurker View Post
I get that this is the answer. But, all of these folks are, at worst, going to lose their job. Big deal.
You’re sort of assuming the worst, there.

Imagine — stop laughing! Imagine you’re a GOP Congressman who truly believes your party is championing what’s best for America, and that the Democrats are maybe an election or two away from destroying the country.

Losing your job means — what, exactly? Let’s say you legislate by always asking yourself what’s best for these United States. Let’s say you believe your replacement would vote differently at least some of the time: maybe most of the time? And, of course, maybe disastrously, whenever ‘ruination’ comes up for a vote.

What’s the benefit to the country of you losing your job?
  #20  
Old 10-03-2019, 04:10 PM
Wesley Clark is offline
2018 Midterm Prediction Winner
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 22,367
The answer is easy.

Any republican who opposes Trump will face a primary from a Trump supporting republican.

Trump represents the id of the GOP base. He is racist, sexist, nativist, islamophobic. He hates democrats and liberals. He hates the Clintons.

All those urges the GOP voters have had to suppress and pretend they didn't have, now they can openly adulate Trump for representing those urges. The GOP is a party of angry white nationalists that pretends to be a party of free market economics. Now the voters don't have to pretend anymore.

And GOP politicians know it. So they aren't going to risk their jobs by standing up to Trump, they aren't dumb. All they'll do it lose re-election and find it harder to get a high paying job in the private sector afterwards.

FWIW, I've heard that 40% of republicans who served in the house in 2017 are now gone. Either replaced by democrats or retired. So they are abandoning ship in a way, just not by standing up to Trump.

https://theweek.com/speedreads/86699...uit-lost-seats

Quote:
Since Trump's inauguration, a Washington Post analysis shows, nearly 40 percent of the 241 Republicans who were in office in January 2017 are gone or leaving because of election losses, retirements
__________________
Sometimes I doubt your commitment to sparkle motion
  #21  
Old 10-03-2019, 04:15 PM
Tired and Cranky is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,571
Because all the other Republican politicians are either cowards, racist, or racist cowards.
  #22  
Old 10-03-2019, 04:46 PM
madmonk28 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 12,434
Trump’s base like him and think that he is doing a good job. The politicians would lose their jobs if they took on Trump.
  #23  
Old 10-03-2019, 05:36 PM
Fiveyearlurker is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 6,749
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Other Waldo Pepper View Post
You’re sort of assuming the worst, there.

Imagine — stop laughing! Imagine you’re a GOP Congressman who truly believes your party is championing what’s best for America, and that the Democrats are maybe an election or two away from destroying the country.

Losing your job means — what, exactly? Let’s say you legislate by always asking yourself what’s best for these United States. Let’s say you believe your replacement would vote differently at least some of the time: maybe most of the time? And, of course, maybe disastrously, whenever ‘ruination’ comes up for a vote.

What’s the benefit to the country of you losing your job?
At that point I would imagine that I no longer believe in democracy, or even a republic (for the pedantic).
  #24  
Old 10-03-2019, 05:41 PM
madmonk28 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 12,434
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiveyearlurker View Post
At that point I would imagine that I no longer believe in democracy, or even a republic (for the pedantic).
I think it’s pretty clear that the GOP doesn’t value democracy. Their strategy to win elections includes overt attempts to suppress Democrats from voting. If someone is still in the GOP, he believes in Trumpism, not democracy.

Last edited by madmonk28; 10-03-2019 at 05:41 PM.
  #25  
Old 10-05-2019, 10:57 AM
Anny Middon is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 1,207
Quote:
Originally Posted by madmonk28 View Post
I think it’s pretty clear that the GOP doesn’t value democracy. Their strategy to win elections includes overt attempts to suppress Democrats from voting. If someone is still in the GOP, he believes in Trumpism, not democracy.
I believe that if you ask the typical GOP member if they believe in democracy, they will answer with a resounding Yes. And they believe they are telling the truth in saying that.

It's just that they think they are fighting for the soul of the country, and if that means setting democracy aside for a while, they will do so. Once the country is back on what they think is the right track, they will reinstitute democracy. For sure. No lie. 100%.

The idea that they may never determine that the country is on their right track is something that they ignore.

TLDR: As is so common among humans, they believe that the end does indeed justify the means.
  #26  
Old 10-05-2019, 12:26 PM
Velocity is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 15,397
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anny Middon View Post
I believe that if you ask the typical GOP member if they believe in democracy, they will answer with a resounding Yes. And they believe they are telling the truth in saying that.

It's just that they think they are fighting for the soul of the country, and if that means setting democracy aside for a while, they will do so. Once the country is back on what they think is the right track, they will reinstitute democracy. For sure. No lie. 100%.
The impression I get is that Republicans believe they are actually enhancing and protecting democracy. If one believes, for instance, that people are abusing the lack of voter-ID laws to cast fraudulent votes, that dead people are voting, and that many illegal immigrants are voting illegally, then one is enhancing democracy by enforcing the rules and making sure that only legit voters get to cast legit votes.

Whether those aforementioned claims are true or not is another matter.
  #27  
Old 10-05-2019, 12:49 PM
Euphonious Polemic is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 12,211
Quote:
Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
The impression I get is that Republicans believe they are actually enhancing and protecting democracy. If one believes, for instance, that people are abusing the lack of voter-ID laws to cast fraudulent votes, that dead people are voting, and that many illegal immigrants are voting illegally, then one is enhancing democracy by enforcing the rules and making sure that only legit voters get to cast legit votes.

Whether those aforementioned claims are true or not is another matter.
The claims don't have to be true.

They just have to have an air of truthiness.

tip o the hat to Colbert
  #28  
Old 10-05-2019, 01:39 PM
pjacks is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Chicago
Posts: 230
Silly question.

I'll say this... If we were living in a parallel dimension where some sort of FDR-style Democrat is president, and he or she gave us Medicare for All, a Green New Deal, ended the drug war, ended our half dozen foreign wars, and broke up the Big Tech psychopaths destroying our civil society, I would forgive any immoral thing this hypothetical president would ever do. To paraphrase an imbecile, if they shot someone on 5th Avenue, I would still support them. They could use their office to enrich themselves and their families, and I would still support them, and enthusiasticly so.

Every president in my lifetime has had a literal kill list and blood on their hands. These are not fine, polite gentleman. Trump is abhorrent to a lot of people because he doesn't mask his awfulness. The thing is- he also fights and gets shit done for his side. If all you care about is abortion, guns, and god, why in the world would you ever turn against Trump? He has done more for you than any other president. The courts are packed with wingnuts for a generation, and as a bonus you get to see your arch enemies, the libs, triggered on a daily basis. Trump voters are living in heaven right now. Who cares that he has used power to enrich himself or colluded with foreigners to bring down his adversaries (who you consider immoral baby killers anyway). He also use his power to give his base what they want, and that's all that matters.

I don't blame Republicans for sticking with their guy. In fact, it's completely logical. They understand power and how to wield it. OTOH, what I do find pathetic is some Democrats' delusion that this all just an abberation and surely we can all go back to a civil time of bipartisanship that never actually existed and all just get along. How sad. Republicans literally think Democrats murder babies, along with all sorts of evils. They are fed propoganda 24/7 by the highest-rated news network in America, alongside a burgeoning industry of even more radical Internet propoganda. These people hate you. Get over it and recalibrate so you can actually win elections against them, and then use the levers of power to punish them just like they do to you. They will never ever turn against their Party as long as it gives them what they want, and maybe there is a lesson to learn there.

Last edited by pjacks; 10-05-2019 at 01:40 PM.
  #29  
Old 10-05-2019, 01:46 PM
Velocity is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 15,397
Quote:
Originally Posted by pjacks View Post
Silly question.

I'll say this... If we were living in a parallel dimension where some sort of FDR-style Democrat is president, and he or she gave us Medicare for All, a Green New Deal, ended the drug war, ended our half dozen foreign wars, and broke up the Big Tech psychopaths destroying our civil society, I would forgive any immoral thing this hypothetical president would ever do. To paraphrase an imbecile, if they shot someone on 5th Avenue, I would still support them. They could use their office to enrich themselves and their families, and I would still support them, and enthusiastically so.

This is one of the best write-ups on the issue, here or elsewhere. It would take an extraordinarily blind voter to vote against his or her political interests in the name of "personal character." Yes, many Republicans are being flaming hypocrites by supporting Trump after having decried Bill Clinton's behavior in the 1990s, but it makes no logical sense whatsoever to toss out 90% of what you like (whatever it is that you like) because of 10% that you don't like.

Not to mention that there is a huge "emotional price" in doing so - if seeing "the other side" gloat and rejoice in your side losing feels like having a big chunk of salt rubbed into your wounds, you'll go to almost any length to deny the other side that schadenfreude.
  #30  
Old 10-05-2019, 02:17 PM
Ambivalid is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 13,942
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlikTheBlue View Post
Apologies for the double post. Speaking for myself, had Obama turned out to be the left wing version of Trump,.
*Trump* is the left wing version of Trump. He has no political shape. No political fucks to give. No political beliefs. Just whatever vehocle he can crawl onto in order to ride it as far as it'll take him before it runs out of gas.
  #31  
Old 10-05-2019, 03:15 PM
DigitalC is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Obamatopia
Posts: 11,153
Quote:
Originally Posted by pjacks View Post
Every president in my lifetime has had a literal kill list and blood on their hands. These are not fine, polite gentleman. Trump is abhorrent to a lot of people because he doesn't mask his awfulness. The thing is- he also fights and gets shit done for his side. If all you care about is abortion, guns, and god, why in the world would you ever turn against Trump? He has done more for you than any other president. The courts are packed with wingnuts for a generation, and as a bonus you get to see your arch enemies, the libs, triggered on a daily basis. Trump voters are living in heaven right now. Who cares that he has used power to enrich himself or colluded with foreigners to bring down his adversaries (who you consider immoral baby killers anyway). He also use his power to give his base what they want, and that's all that matters.
Packing the courts is great for the party but it sure as hell is not what the base cares about. He's done literally nothing for them other than talk. His one and only accomplishment fucks his base to enrich the elites.
  #32  
Old 10-05-2019, 03:28 PM
pjacks is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Chicago
Posts: 230
Quote:
Originally Posted by DigitalC View Post
Packing the courts is great for the party but it sure as hell is not what the base cares about. He's done literally nothing for them other than talk. His one and only accomplishment fucks his base to enrich the elites.
Go to r/TheDonald or read through some Trump fans' tweets on Twitter. You are in a bubble- these people are overjoyed with his performance. Roe vs Wade and Obamacare are close to dead, gun rights are untouchable for the next few decades, Christian supremacy is back in the halls of power, and uppity non-republicans have been put back in their place. What do you think the base cares about if not those things?
  #33  
Old 10-05-2019, 03:51 PM
DigitalC is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Obamatopia
Posts: 11,153
Your average Trump fan is not tech savvy enough to be on twitter and has never even heard of Reddit, both of those are full of either internet trolls or paid shills. Obamacare is actually popular, and nobody is actually happy with how Trump has dealt with the gun issue. The thing they care about, other than their own financial well being, is immigration. Putting kids in cages might be popular but its not what he promised.
  #34  
Old 10-05-2019, 03:54 PM
pjacks is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Chicago
Posts: 230
Quote:
Originally Posted by DigitalC View Post
Your average Trump fan is not tech savvy enough to be on twitter and has never even heard of Reddit, both of those are full of either internet trolls or paid shills. Obamacare is actually popular, and nobody is actually happy with how Trump has dealt with the gun issue. The thing they care about, other than their own financial well being, is immigration. Putting kids in cages might be popular but its not what he promised.
If you can't have a border wall, institutionalized cruelty at the border is the next best thing.

His approval numbers among Republicans hover around 90%. If Democrats want to handwave that away as some sort of Internet trolling conspiracy or just dumbasses not realizing they are being screwed over, then they really are on their way to losing once again.
  #35  
Old 10-05-2019, 03:57 PM
DigitalC is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Obamatopia
Posts: 11,153
Quote:
Originally Posted by pjacks View Post
If we were living in a parallel dimension where some sort of FDR-style Democrat is president, and he or she gave us Medicare for All, a Green New Deal, ended the drug war, ended our half dozen foreign wars, and broke up the Big Tech psychopaths destroying our civil society,
An honest comparison to this would require that Trump had banned all abortions for any reason, stopped all immigration from brown countries and deported every single one living here, delegalized gay marriage and annulled all their marriage licenses, brought back every single coal mining job and revitalized every small town. You're comparing the complete and total fulfillment of the literal perfect liberal agenda to Trump's half assed rhetoric and vague feelings.

Last edited by DigitalC; 10-05-2019 at 03:57 PM.
  #36  
Old 10-05-2019, 05:25 PM
madmonk28 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 12,434
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anny Middon View Post
I believe that if you ask the typical GOP member if they believe in democracy, they will answer with a resounding Yes. And they believe they are telling the truth in saying that.

It's just that they think they are fighting for the soul of the country, and if that means setting democracy aside for a while, they will do so. Once the country is back on what they think is the right track, they will reinstitute democracy. For sure. No lie. 100%.

The idea that they may never determine that the country is on their right track is something that they ignore.

TLDR: As is so common among humans, they believe that the end does indeed justify the means.
I think just below this attitude you describe is their not so subtle belief that when they say American democracy, they mean for white people. When they say Make America Great Again, they mean for whites like them, so they don’t see suppression of black votes as a problem, because blacks aren’t really Americans.
  #37  
Old 10-05-2019, 07:47 PM
E-DUB's Avatar
E-DUB is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 4,817
There's a reason that "Profiles in Courage" was such a thin book. (Stole that line but not sure from whom. If anybody knows trot it out.)

Last edited by E-DUB; 10-05-2019 at 07:48 PM. Reason: I felt like it
  #38  
Old 10-05-2019, 10:54 PM
Lord Feldon's Avatar
Lord Feldon is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Ohio, USA
Posts: 6,579
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlikTheBlue View Post
Why have so few Republicans, including both the people in Congress and the voters in general, not yet turned against him?
Party politics in the USA are centered on the presidency. If you don't like the Republican president, whoever that is, you probably aren't a Republican voter any more.

Last edited by Lord Feldon; 10-05-2019 at 10:54 PM.
  #39  
Old 10-06-2019, 12:31 AM
nate is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 929
Quote:
Originally Posted by pjacks View Post
Silly question.

I'll say this... If we were living in a parallel dimension where some sort of FDR-style Democrat is president, and he or she gave us Medicare for All, a Green New Deal, ended the drug war, ended our half dozen foreign wars, and broke up the Big Tech psychopaths destroying our civil society, I would forgive any immoral thing this hypothetical president would ever do. To paraphrase an imbecile, if they shot someone on 5th Avenue, I would still support them. They could use their office to enrich themselves and their families, and I would still support them, and enthusiasticly so.
My supervisor is a very smart guy, a conservative, and said basically that he and his wife can't stand Trump but why would he care about the actual person in office if he is effective in pushing the conservative agenda.

While I kind of understand that line of thinking, I don't think I'd give up the collective trust in our system to get universal health care, for instance. It's just not worth it.

And then I think, what the hell is the equivalent for right-wingers on your paragraph above? Less taxes for the rich? Let private industry take over Medicare and Medicaid? Privatise social security? Mandate school prayer to Jesus? Allow us to shoot anyone trying to cross our border (from Mexico, not Canada) illegally?

It's hard to imagine someone rising to the ranks of the US Senate that genuinely supports these ideas, so, at some point we lefties think there has to be some red line, some breaking point for them. But that isn't happening and it's baffling.
  #40  
Old 10-06-2019, 05:32 AM
The Other Waldo Pepper is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 16,751
Quote:
Originally Posted by nate View Post
My supervisor is a very smart guy, a conservative, and said basically that he and his wife can't stand Trump but why would he care about the actual person in office if he is effective in pushing the conservative agenda.

While I kind of understand that line of thinking, I don't think I'd give up the collective trust in our system
Is that a thing?
  #41  
Old 10-06-2019, 09:24 AM
asahi's Avatar
asahi is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 10,831
There are so few Justin Amashes because the Republican party has created a toxic political ecosystem that acts almost like a cult. It's an ecosystem created through gerrymandering, right wing media, right wing political activism, and oligarchal control of the political party's structure. Criticizing the cult is a crime against the cult, and the punishment is exile.
  #42  
Old 10-06-2019, 09:41 AM
Northeast Refugee is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 76
Because most Republicans have huevos. Huevos grande. Really big huevos. Huge.

And as for the democrats, well... Transgenderism, and all that.
  #43  
Old 10-06-2019, 11:00 AM
HMS Irruncible is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 8,533
It's a pretty simple. The Republican definition of "principled courage" involves sticking it to the outsiders and defending their cause to the bitter end.

The first Republicans to stand up to trump will be seen as traitorous chickenshit pariahs. The last ones will be seen as heroic stalwarts whose hand was forced by circumstances.

Everybody wants to be the hero, nobody wants to be a traitorous chickenshit pariah.
  #44  
Old 10-06-2019, 12:09 PM
JRDelirious is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Displaced
Posts: 15,962
Quote:
Originally Posted by DigitalC View Post
An honest comparison to this would require that Trump had banned all abortions for any reason, stopped all immigration from brown countries and deported every single one living here, delegalized gay marriage and annulled all their marriage licenses, brought back every single coal mining job and revitalized every small town. You're comparing the complete and total fulfillment of the literal perfect liberal agenda to Trump's half assed rhetoric and vague feelings.
That is because he's comparing what would it take to generate a similar kind of devotion from the "base", not what would be equivalent deeds from a privileged-observer POV.

The hard left would not be satisfied and would keep bitching and whining as long as their guy/gal failed to achieve complete fulfillment, and even then then probably would throw in their face that s/he waited 3 or 7 years to achieve specific thing X or Y; and/or keep bringing up that back in 1999 s/he did/said/wrote something un-woke.

The hard right OTOH are satisfied enough with seeing fulfillment of the liberal agenda being hindered for at least another generation through judicial appointments and the crippling of the "administrative state" to the point it would take over a decade to rebuild competency and trust, and who cares about style.




The cult Trumpetistas meanwhile are happy both with seeing the libs triggered and seeing "polite society" old-elite Republicans having to shuffle out the door in embarassment or else bend the knee and bow their head. To them, that is delivering what they want. Mainstream principled conservatives who dare ask "but at what cost" are called RINOs or tools of the Establishment and primaried if politicians or sidelined as weak bores if commentators.

Last edited by JRDelirious; 10-06-2019 at 12:12 PM.
  #45  
Old 10-06-2019, 12:19 PM
HMS Irruncible is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 8,533
Quote:
Originally Posted by pjacks View Post
Get over it and recalibrate so you can actually win elections against them, and then use the levers of power to punish them just like they do to you. They will never ever turn against their Party as long as it gives them what they want, and maybe there is a lesson to learn there.
Eh... yes and no. Yes, everyone needs to clearly see that Republicans are irredeemable bad-faith governing partners and act to marginalize them politically.

I don't know about actually punishing them. Punish them by depriving political power, sure. Punish them by investigating and prosecuting all their shady bullshit, sure.

As far as the actual Republican voters, I don't see any value in punishing them. Given that they already live in a 24x7 persecution fantasy, they won't be able to connect actual punishment to their actions. It's inhumane to punish those who can't learn from their actions.
  #46  
Old 10-06-2019, 12:26 PM
Jonathan Chance is offline
Domo Arigato Mister Moderato
Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: On the run with Kilroy
Posts: 22,925

The Moderator Speaks


Quote:
Originally Posted by Northeast Refugee View Post
Because most Republicans have huevos. Huevos grande. Really big huevos. Huge.

And as for the democrats, well... Transgenderism, and all that.
Northeast Refugee-

If you’re intent is to be offensive and not actually participate, your time here will be short.

Please spend more time on your posts and make them germane to the discuss.
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:54 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright © 2019 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017